[vis-à-vis]

I was wondering your thoughts on carrying a Walther P22 for self-defense. What are the pros and cons to carrying a .22 pistol. Would you do it? Or is should .22 just be relegated to plinking tin cans and coons?

[kd7nqb]

We all agree that their are pro's and cons to CCW'ing I think a .22 takes on all the cons with little if any of the pro's. On the other hand many people would say something is better than nothing.

I have a feeling that this thread will go on for a while and I would like to see some arguments that boil down to more than what I just stated. Maybe I am wrong.

[DRMMR02]

Don't. Why not spend the $$ on a 9mm? You can get a Taurus Millennium Pro in a real caliber for the same price as a P-22. The Mil Pros are about the same size as a P-22 as well, so they are easily concealed.


However, if it's the only thing you have, the go for it. Get some CCI Stingers and be prepared to unload if your life is threatened. On the plus side, 99% of all draw-able encounters end without the CCWer having to fire, so if something does happen, you may luck out. But don't kid yourself into thinking you can coast on luck and get away with carrying a .22 indefinitely. Do it until you can get a weapon in a real PD caliber. And do that ASAP.

Despite what some people will say, a .22 is still a deadly weapon, and IS still much better than a rock, or knife, or using it as a club, and all those other nonsense answers. But there is no real reason why one should be able to have a P-22 and not a similarly priced 9mm/.40SW pistol like a Taurus Mil Pro.

[RevolvingCylinder]

I'd avoid it. There are plenty of affordable quality 9mm and .38 pistols on the market now anyway.

[Ala Dan]

I will just add, that in my 20+ years as a LEO I have seen more persons
killed with a .22 caliber than I have all other caliber's combined~!:scrutiny: :uhoh:

[vis-à-vis]

Ive got a 9mm that I carry. I'm lookin for a second gun to buy that would be "dual purpose" if you will. I want the .22 mainly for the purpose of being able to shoot thousands of rounds at negligible cost and yet bear the possibility of carrying this as well.

Are there any studies concerning this out there?

[DRMMR02]

I still wouldn't. The moment you see those 3 or 4 thugs walking up asking "yo dawg, you got me some money for the bus? I'm outta gas", all while trying to circle around you, you're gonna be wishing you had grabed the 9mm instead of the .22

[vis-à-vis]

I will just add, that in my 20+ years as a LEO I have seen more persons
killed with a .22 caliber than I have all other caliber's combined~!


When I went through the Academy, I heard that too. I imagine with the proper training you can kill with a .22 as you can with a 9.

[DRMMR02]

You most certainly can kill with a .22 But why make it harder on yourself than necessary? I can fill my flat tires with "fix-a-flat" spray foam and drive around on those. But what I should do is get them patched and filled properly. Sometimes you have to make do with tools that are not quite adequate, but still mostly get the job done. That would be the case with carrying a .22. If it's your only choice, than OK. But why would you choose to when other options are available for the same price and same size?

Also, For a month or 2, I did in fact carry a P-22, as it was my first pistol. But as soon as I could, I got a P-99. I didn't feel unarmed with the P-22, and I still think the threat of a gun could have scared away most BGs. But I still feel better with a real caliber knowing that if it really came down to it, I could follow through to the fullest.

[jibjab]

.22 rimfires have a greater chance of missfire than a center fire cartridge. This makes for a stoppage or jam in a auto loader = not good for self defence. I would go with a wheel gun if you must :confused: .22 mag. would be a better choice .

[whm1974]

Don't. Why not spend the $$ on a 9mm? You can get a Taurus Millennium Pro in a real caliber for the same price as a P-22. The Mil Pros are about the same size as a P-22 as well, so they are easily concealed.

I person may not be able to afford buying two pistols at the same time. Or for matter afford to shoot a PD caliber a whole if at all.

A .22 is much better then nothing and at lest a person cam afford to shoot it.

I'd avoid it. There are plenty of affordable quality 9mm and .38 pistols on the market now anyway.

And the cheapist new one is around $300 or so unless you get a Hi-Point. While this would be far from my first choice, a rough rider goes for less then $200 and you get a .22 mag cyclder with it. Load .22 mag for PD and shoot LR for fun.

-Bill

[hso]

Let me ask instead, why would you want to carry a .22 Walther instead of a 9mm or .40 that is almost the same size?

While many many people have been killed with a .22, carrying a gun for self defense is about stopping an attack instead of killing. If stopping has to do with placement, energy and momentum of the bullet then why select a gun with possibly the lowest energy and momentum of any gun you can choose?

[daysleeprx]

.22 rimfires have a greater chance of missfire than a center fire cartridge. This makes for a stoppage or jam in a auto loader = not good for self defence.

This would be my main concern with carrying a .22 for SD purposes.

[vis-à-vis]

You most certainly can kill with a .22 But why make it harder on yourself than necessary? I can fill my flat tires with "fix-a-flat" spray foam and drive around on those. But what I should do is get them patched and filled properly. Sometimes you have to make do with tools that are not quite adequate, but still mostly get the job done. That would be the case with carrying a .22. If it's your only choice, than OK. But why would you choose to when other options are available for the same price and same size?

Also, For a month or 2, I did in fact carry a P-22, as it was my first pistol. But as soon as I could, I got a P-99. I didn't feel unarmed with the P-22, and I still think the threat of a gun could have scared away most BGs. But I still feel better with a real caliber knowing that if it really came down to it, I could follow through to the fullest.

Having owned a P22, how did you like it?

[DRMMR02]

It was great for getting the feel of the functions of a regular auto. A lot of .22s out there a like quirky target pistols and don't really feel like a regular gun. The P-22 does. It's fairly accurate for a pistol in .22 and mine east every kind of ammo I give it. I have put about 2500 rounds through it so far with no problems other than the customary 3 or 4 dud rounds per 500rd box. It does have a Zinc slide, so it actually needs a lot less lubrication than most pistols. In fact, excessive lubrication can make it wear more easily. But a few drops of RemOil every 1000 rds is good enough. It is a good fun plinking pistol.

[Soybomb]

.22 is certainly the bottom rung for terminal ballistics plus you have the reliability problems of rimfire. If its all that was available to me immediately, it'd be better than a sharp stick. If I could afford only 1 very cheap gun I'd trade the walther in on a 9mm hipoint.

Ive got a 9mm that I carry. I'm lookin for a second gun to buy that would be "dual purpose" if you will. I want the .22 mainly for the purpose of being able to shoot thousands of rounds at negligible cost and yet bear the possibility of carrying this as well.

Are there any studies concerning this out there?
Studies? I can't imagine what you're looking for. If you have a gun chambered in 9mm you have a gun thats cheap to shoot and good for defense. If you buy a .22 you're getting a gun thats 5-6 times cheaper to shoot but also far far less suited for self defense. Why can't it just be a cheap gun thats fun to shoot?

[aaronrkelly]

Any gun is better than no gun.....but I think most would agree that .22 is subpar for a defense round.

But if thats what ya got......I would make it work.

[Outlaws]

Ive got a 9mm that I carry. I'm lookin for a second gun to buy that would be "dual purpose" if you will. I want the .22 mainly for the purpose of being able to shoot thousands of rounds at negligible cost and yet bear the possibility of carrying this as well.

If you have a 9mm for carry already, why does the .22 have to be dual purpose?

I would just get a nice .22 pistol that you like and shot it for fun. Use the 9mm for carry.

[whm1974]

If you have a 9mm for carry already, why does the .22 have to be dual purpose?

The idea is to have a .22 that's close to what you are carrying.It would make training easyer.

-Bill

[GEM]

Mouse gun thread - beaten to death on all the forums. If you search on the topic, the conclusions are:

1. Carry something better if you can - the 22s are only if you can't afford others or some physical disability precludes more stoutly recoiling gun.

There may be a special instance when only the smallest 22s - the NAA minis can be concealed - like for undercover or bugs.

2. That being said - the 22 has significant deterrent effect according to all we know from the criminological literature (not one report from an internet commando). Next, if deterrence fails - shooting the person with the gun has a reasonable chance of stopping the crime.

Thus - if it's all you have, carry it. Not a primary choice, though.

This summarizes about 6,000,000 posts on this topic.

[Missashot]

I would think that a .22 would just be too small and far too unreliable for a self defense round. As far as my life goes, I value it more than to entrust it's safety to a .22.:what:
But however I do LOVE plinking with my S&W .22-A.:D

[WeedWhacker]

My P22 is a fun pistol, but a jam-o-matic. I *strongly* encourage you to stay away from rimfire ammunition in a defensive firearm. If you absolutely must use .22 rimfire, make it .22 WMR in a revolver.

Centerfire is much more reliable overall.

[Double Naught Spy]

In the sexist tones of the gender-laden comments about what should be a "lady's gun" which is often something cute, small, and of small caliber, I would like to offer for consideration that a .22 for a self defense gun is a "real man's self defense gun."

Why? With a caliber as small as a .22, it is more likely that you can empty the contents of the gun into your attacker and still have to go hand to hand with the attacker and try to use the gun as a rock in order to stop the attack.

{Sexism comments off}

I will just add, that in my 20+ years as a LEO I have seen more persons killed with a .22 caliber than I have all other caliber's combined~!

Of course, this may be because there are more people out there with .22s and more shootings with .22s. It is an interesting statistic and one I have seen before. I would bet there are more people out there shot with .22s in general than any other caliber. What is critical to this discussion, however, and is a statistic that never seems to materialize is the one about just how effective a little .22 pistol is in self defense versus other calibers.

[Zundfolge]

I will just add, that in my 20+ years as a LEO I have seen more persons
killed with a .22 caliber than I have all other caliber's combined~!
Murdering someone with a .22 is a much different affair than using one in self defense.

The goal of a self defense gun is to STOP someone, killing them is a side issue.

I don't see a .22 doing a very good job of stopping someone.

[lucky_fool]

More people may have been killed by .22s than anything else, but how many of them died quickly?

How many of them were shot and then proceeded to still rape/maim/kill their victim before walking a couple of blocks and then dying?

I'd avoid carrying a .22 for defense if possible.

[Justin]

With the right ammo, you might outperform something chambered in .25.

That said, .22 LR is a marginal round at best, and I consider the Walther P22 to be nothing more than a toy for putting holes in tin cans.

[Rotorflyr]

why would you want to carry a .22 Walther instead of a 9mm or .40 that is almost the same size?

While it wouldn't be my first choice, I'd agree with what GEM said, the reason would be because of a physical limitation that won't allow the user to carry anything larger. A .22 in the hand beats any large(r) caliber in the safe.

As for the 3 thug's surrounding you scenerio that was presented, I'd say the average thug is likely to run when their "helpless victim" pulls a gun, even .22, and even if they don't, I'd still rather be armed with a .22 then not have a gun at all.

[Jacobus Rex]

I wouldn't go out and buy a .22 for defense, unless I had physical problems that prevented my using a large caliber. However, if a .22 was all I had, I wouldn't have a problem with carrying it.

[Double Naught Spy]

Right, well if you physically cannot carry anything else, then it really isn't a question as to whether you would carry .22 lr for self defense or not verus other calibers. .22 lr becomes your only choice.

With that said, I like to turn the question around. If I end up in a gun fight with an opponent what calibers would I prefer the opponent be shooting? In other words, what calibers pose the least risk to me?

.22 short
.17 HMR
.22 lr
.25 acp
.22 mag/hornet/etc.
.32 acp
.32 mag
.38 (just plain old .38)
.380

This would probably be about the right order, but even if not perfectly aligned, you still get the idea. .22 lr is still close to the top of the list of calibers I would like to see being used by my opponent in a handgun. It will be in my top four choices of anemic calibers (for stopping big animals).

[scottw]

Every time I go to the firing range someone will ask why I am shooting at 10'. I reply that anything farther is not self defense. Their next question is what do I use? I show them my P22. Do you really think that you can stop someone with that? I load a magazine and turn to the target and shoot 10 rounds as fast as I can pull the trigger and put all 10 rounds in less than a 2" circle in the center of the face of the silhouette target. Then I ask do you think that will stop them? Then I go on to explain that with the 22 I can shoot 500 to a 1,000 rounds a week end and be out only $20.00. Most cannot shoot that much with a larger caliber to become that proficient. Also I live at the gun club and I can say from what I have seen that the center-fire pistols have far more problems than a 22. The DUD can is full of center fire cartridges and seldom will you see a 22 in there. I do think that ALA DAN said it best. Here in Tulsa there was a case where and person pulled his large caliber pistol and fired 2 shots at point blank and missed both shots and hit someone in a building. Did not practice to fire under pressure. In an emergency you will fall back to what you are taught and if you did not get in enough practice you will have nothing to fall back on. The reason for a 22, lots of cheap practice.

[Mad Magyar]

All of us know about the Golden Rule #1: "Make sure you have a gun!!!" Unfortunately, in the real world when there are many occasions when we DO NOT carry our primary piece and we make the quick trip to "stop 'n rob" for the quart of milk & bread: we stick the mouse gun in our pocket & out the door....I've done that on many occasions with Beretta's .22, 25, and now a CZ .32...At least you are armed, however deficient....:rolleyes:

[Vern Humphrey]

If you're going to carry a .22 RF for defense, make it a revolver. That way if you hear a "click" instead of a "bang" you can just pull the trigger again, instead of having to rack the slide.

[UglyGlock]

how about a Five-seveN? thats a .22 and (I hear) pretty effective for self defense.

of course, I realize the origional poster was talking about .22LR.
my opinion is similar to many other posters here: ballistics aside, rimfire is just not reliable enough (for me) to use as a self defense round. however, it's great fun for practice, inexpensive, and wonderful for shooting small game, and its better than nothing.

[akanotken]

There's no reason to carry the p22. You've bought a 9mm, you shouldn't ever be caught with the p22, for all the reasons above. As you can handle the 9mm none of the other arguments work to carry it.

.22 for training is valid. Your signature says you have a G19? Doesn't someone make a .22 conversion for glocks? If not, Sell, trade, whatever you have to do to end up with a 1911 platform, hi power/clone, CZ75, whatever. Then get a .22 kit for it.

If you just are looking for a pocket pistol, then you better think a revolver, or my choice a keltec.

Note, you just wasted .02 cents of your gun budget as I expect to be paid ... :) But on the upside, you'll save more $$ the first time you pull the trigger on a .22 kit for training :)

[real_name]

Any of the people here who think that .22 isn't a real man's round fancy their chances taking a few of those rounds to the ol' center mass?

No takers?

I thought so.

.22 isn't optimal but it is deadly.

[Double Naught Spy]

Any of the people here who think that .22 isn't a real man's round fancy their chances taking a few of those rounds to the ol' center mass?

No takers?

I thought so.

Invalid and poor argument. Just because folks don't want to allow something like that to go on doesn't validate it as an effective self defense caliber/method/platform/etc.

I don't want you to step on my foot or poke with a finger, but that doesn't make it a good form of defense either.

I won't eat Thai food either, but the only way it which it could be considered as good self defense is if you don't want me coming for dinner.

[borrowedtime69]

DO NOT carry the Walther P22 for self defense. from all the posts ive seen here and on Rimfire Central, the P22 doesnt come close to being reliable enough for self defense work.

my choice, if you really wanted or needed to carry a .22 for defense, would be as follows.

1st choice: a Taurus 4" barrel model 94 .22 Magnum revolver with the CCI 22 WMR Gamepoint ammo. its built to stay together and mushroom very well.

2nd choice: a Taurus .22 LR revolver, again 4" barrel, 9 shot model 94. the ammo that i would recommend is CCI Velocitors, they pack alot of whallop.

CCI has the most reliable primers in the industry thats why i highly recommend them.

i find myself in the same boat. i cant afford a high priced centerfire, and i cant afford the ammo that i would need to buy to practice as much as i would need to. i use a Ruger MK II 22/45 P4, 4" BBL to back up my Mossy 20 ga for home defense. i do not carry concealed. best of luck -Eric

[scottw]

It is amazing at the different guns people say to get. I have never and I repeat never seen a Taurus revolver shoot all 9 shots with out a miss fire. They will shoot sometimes single action and fire all 9 but on double action I have never seen it done. Don't get me wrong I wanted to get one and when I saw and tried them it made me change my mind. Check the ballistics and you will find there isn't enough difference in CCI stingers and 22 mag to make the mag the weapon of choice. You can shoot 9mm for what it cost to shoot 22 mag.

[Geronimo45]

The 5.7's not a viable choice at all if ammo affordability is a concern. As for .22, I've had some bad .22 rounds that had sat in a rifle case in a hot & humid TX closet for a few years, lying loose. The Super-X rounds were all duds. Maybe they were dropped in the water sometime... got the gun and ammo used.
As for new-ish ammo, I've burned through .22 CB shorts, stinger 22lr, and 22lr remington subsonics (they cycle the Marlin's slide - very good).
Still, I'm of the opinion that .22 will 'go bad' on you faster than centerfire would. If you shoot your gun empty every month or every two months, and use CCI or some other good ammo brand, you shouldn't have any problems.

[Drewrw]

While many many people have been killed with a .22, carrying a gun for self defense is about stopping an attack instead of killing. If stopping has to do with placement, energy and momentum of the bullet then why select a gun with possibly the lowest energy and momentum of any gun you can choose?


CCI velocitors -22lr have the same muzzle energy (withing 5 pounds) as a .380 ACP, did you know that?

[Cousin Mike]

Okay, for all you "Who wants to stand in front of my .22LR?" guys...

I'm SO sick of hearing that, I've decided that every time I see it typed out, I'm going to take the person who posted it up on the challenge. But let's make it interesting - none of this "just stand in front of me and let me shoot you," crap.

Here's how it'll go...

I stand in front of you with your .22LR.

You stand in front of me and my .45 or .357.

We both draw at the same time and shoot...

...then we see who dies on the spot, and who walks (or drives) themselves to the nearest hospital for treatment.

Any takers on THAT?

Yeah, sure a .22 can kill.. So can any various number of things. The question is, why would you WANT to carry a weapon chambered in .22LR? Especially something like a Walther P22 that costs nearly as much and is the exact same size as the Walther P99?

Price is not a factor in this particular case, given that they (the P22 and P99) cost about the same, IIRC. I'm also sick of people justifying carrying a .22 for "economic" reasons... As if someone can ONLY afford a $1.05 50-box of .22LR ammo.

If you can't afford a $20 box of JHP ammo in a defensive caliber, yet you CAN afford a computer and hi-speed internet, then what gun you're carrying isn't your biggest problem by any means. Your sense of priority, however, just might be an issue.

What we have here is someone passing up an untold number of adequate SD/carry packages in favor of a big, clunky .22 rimfire - and that's just something I don't understand.

[shooter71]

Nov 06 Combat Handguns

"a female officer was attacked by a violent psycho who got her service colt away from her and shot her with it. a neighbor came to her aid with the only loaded gun he could get his hands on a 22 rifle w/tubular mag. he shot the assailant. no reaction. shot him again. same thing. he had to empty the rifle into the man, some 15 rounds, and the would be cop killer was still on his feet. the good samaritan finally turned the empty rifle in his hands, swung it like a baseball bat, and at last clubbed the offender to the ground. the bad guy finally died of his multiple wounds."

the good guy got lucky since he was saving a leo ..but now if it was something different he might have gotten into serious trouble pumping 15 rounds into someone a good attorney could have claimed that was overkill even though it still didnt stop the bad guy..so not trying to scare anyone..but sometimes bigger is better

like someone said earlier nobody wants to be shot by a 22 i know i dont but how many perps have and still went on to kill, rape, or mame a person...and not to say a 9/40/45 may do the trick the first round, everyone has prb seen the vid of the little cop shooting a ex heavyweight boxer point blank and the perp is still smacking the leo around..either way and with any caliber we are all taking a chance.. period

[Cousin Mike]

"Well, OBVIOUSLY he wasn't using CCI-Stingers." :rolleyes:


:D :evil: ;) :neener: :cool:

Thanks for the exerpt, shooter71. Hopefully, the fact that the guy was using a rifle, emptied 15 rounds into the perp, and STILL had to club him with it should stop at least some of the inevitable (yet also my favorite):

"But, a .22LR from a 6" bbl..." nonsense.

[GEM]

Oh, yawn - didn't I explain this entire issue in my earlier post?

What don't people understand about it? DNS and I are on the same page here. Carry the small gun for backup (if you need a small gun), you don't have any other or you can't handle the larger round.

Carrying something as big as the p22 if you have other choices is not optimal. Will it have utility - yes - optimal - no.

[Justin]

Cousin_Mike wins the thread.

[SFvet]

Its always shot placement. I have seen a video of a perp who shot an officer with a .22 and the officer returned fire with his .357. The officer was shot under his arm which was not coverd by the vest and it went into his aorta. The officer died 2 minuets after but the perp was shot 4 times none of the hits were in the vital areas since the guy was fat. The perp did go down but who lived? it sucks but we have always got to stress placement in anything. :fire:

[DRMMR02]

Just for the record, the P99 is virtually twice as expensive as the P22. P22s are a little less than $300, whereas the lowest I have seen a P99 is around $550. You can get a Taurus Millennium Pro for about the same price as the P22 however, and that comes in 9mm/.40/45.