[baranjhn]

Hello,

I've only shot blackpowder a few times, but I finally decided I need a rifle. Anyway, I've been cruising the auction sites looking for a used underhammer rifle in my price range (around $175), but I haven't had any luck yet. Does anyone have any suggestions on where else to look?

Thanks

John

[sundance44s]

I`ve seen a few underhammer rifles on www.gunbroker.com

[arcticap]

Edit: Sorry it's not available.

[44-henry]

First off, the underhammers are excellent guns, I own two of them. Second, you probably are going to have to keep looking since they are kind of getting hard to come by. Deer Creek used to sell some very good underhammer rifle kits, but they stopped selling them a few years ago and I don't know if there are any plans to resume operations. H&A rifles still surface occasionally, I picked up one of the 45 caliber H&A carbines on an auction site last year for $100, but that is probably the exception, you probably are going to be looking closer to $200 when you get one. The one problem that they do possess is that the cap flash can burn your hand so wear long sleeves or some kind of glove to protect your wrist when shooting them. Good, luck, I have really enjoyed mine.

[Plink]

About the only underhammers I know of that are still available are from the folks at Blue Grouse (underhammers.com). Their kits are $255 which is a good value, but a little higher than you wanted to pay, and you still need to put it together. They're not hard to build though. Most a little sanding on the wood and applying finish and bluing.

If you keep looking on the auction sites, you might get lucky with a used one, but I don't see many on the market. I check regularly, so if I see something, I'll be sure to let you know.

[Shawnee]

Hi Demonic... er... Plink

Those underhammer rifles at Blue Grouse sure look tempting. What is the process of browning the metal parts like?

When you compare an underhammer rifle with say, a Hawken or similar percussion rifle, the striking thing is the underhammer is so slim and the Hawken is so beefy. That raises the question (in my feeble mind) "How can the underhammer be so svelte and still stand up to the trauma of being fired?"
Are they known for the buttstocks working loose or some other "loosening" of "vitals"? :confused:

[ikd2]

All right it's about time I wrote on this topic in person. I built a 45cal Deer Creek kit (Same as Blue Grouse sells) about 7 years ago. The assembly was very simple. Finish I used was from Brownells a cold browning solution (it works better when you warm the parts). Wood was finished w/ Formby's Ting oil then hand rubbed with bee's wax. The biggest difficulty I had was with the trigger. When first assembled the trigger wasn't safe. It wouldn't hold @ half cock & at full cock it would trip with the slightest bump. After I cleaned up the forgings recut & polished the sear & trigger interface it has a beautiful smooth & safe trigger.

So now you know why I wasn't too eager to sell!

[Shawnee]

Hi Kent...

Do you just warm the metal and then paint the browning solution on? Do you have to immerse the metal parts in solution and watch the clock for some specified time? How do you make sure the browning comes out dark enough and even enough to look good?
I've tried Birchwood Casey's bluing solution on assorted gun parts and have always had terrible results with that - so am a bit reluctant to think I can "brown" an entire rifle unless Brownell's works differently and/or a LOT better than the Birchwood Casey bluing stuff.
Thanks for your help!!!

[ikd2]

Shawnee
To tell the truth I don't remember All I did on the browning process. I do remember using a hair dryer & a large cardboard tube to warm the barrel (it got too hot to touch). The small parts I did in a thrift store stainless sauce pan on the kitchen stove (wife= :fire: ). But it worked well.

[Shawnee]

Hi Kent...

What's the barrel length on your rifle?
Is it a .45 or a .50?
Do you shoot it a lot? Is it pretty accurate? Are the sights good?
Have you hunted with it? or Would you hunt with it?
How easy/difficult is it to clean?
Is the ignition pretty reliable?
What length-of-pull is the stock?
Can you keep good cheek pressure on the stock when aiming/firing?
Is there anything you don't like about it?

Many thanks!!! :)

[Plink]

Shawnee, the browning process is very easy. The easiest and most durable of the ones I've tried is Laurel Mountain browning solution. It also doesn't require the metal to be absolutely spotlessly degreased nor heated, so it's not as easy to make a mistake with. All you do is find a humid spot. Some use a bathroom and run a hot shower for a few minutes to make steam. I use a spare closet with some damp rags and a small electric heater. Basically, you just apply the solution and let it rust for a few hours, then dust off the rust with steel wool and repeat. After a few repetitions, the color begins to show and you continue until you like what you're seeing. If you have a nice warm, humid area, you can repeat as often as every 2-3 hours. It takes me about 12 hours between repetitions. About 8-10 times and you're done. Neutralize with baking soda water, oil and enjoy!

The underhammer design is quite strong because it has an actual "receiver" rather than a bunch of seperate assemblies bedded into a stock. I don't know of any issues with recoil. The Blue Grouse folks will make them in monster sizes including 4 bore! Yeow!

The design also lends for great accuracy, as there's no stock pressure on the barrel like in a sidelock. Wood pressure can change according to humidity and that can play havoc with accuracy. The underhammer is about as close to a true free floating muzzleloader as you're likely to find in a traditional design.

[Shawnee]

Hi PLink...

Thanks Plink!!!

I sent an email off to Blue Grouse yesterday asking a fistful of questions but haven't heard back from them yet. Will post anything of interest that turns up!

Thanks again for the process tips and the cue to Laurel Mountain!

[Plink]

Shawnee, I'd sure be interested in what you find out. An inline kit is definately in my near future. Well, as soon as I catch up on the projects I'm working on now. Geez, I have 2 rifle kits being built (another Investarms Hawken for me and a GPR for my mom's pastor), a .22 target rifle getting pillar bedded in a new stock, 2 rust balls being restored for friends who'll probably just let them rust up again, 2 rifles coming in for repair, and an SKS "paratrooper" that I'm civilianizing and free floating to make a nice brush carbine. I think it'll be a while! LOL

[Shawnee]

Hi PLank et al...

Whew!!! after a frustrating couple weeks trying to get in touch with Blue Grouse Co. I finally talked to the guy on the phone today about the underhammer rifles and pistols. Not good news.:(

His website has not been updated in more than about five years. Due to his parts supplier shutting down and to recent government taxing changes he no longer has the underhammer guns or kits available and builds only "wallhangers" that are incapable of firing. The "wallhangers" are capable of being made "fire-able" but you have to do (or contract) all the machinist work (drilling nipple holes, making dovetails etc.) and assemby yourself.
His estimate of what it will take to get one built is.... expensive.... likely close to $1100-$1300, or more, for a rifle. He says there is an outfit in Oregon ("Pacific Rifle Company) that builds very, very nice ones (called "Zephyrs" for a base price of $1500+.:eek:

:( :( :(

[hillbilly]

Here's a guy I found at Gunsamerica.com

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976152235.htm

[hillbilly]

Oops...never mind...that guy I found IS Blue Grouse....

hillbilly

[Plink]

Shawnee,
That's sad about Blue Grouse. From discussions on muzzleloadingforum, I had assumed they were still in production. I was sure wanting one too. I know the maker was Deer Creek. Maybe if enough of us show interest, they'd start production again. They're very highly regarded by those who own them and some of the accuracy figures posted by owners are stunning.

The only tax change is the application of an 11% excise tax to muzzleloaders. That tax has applied to cartridge arms for decades and goes to wildlife management, so it's good tax (if there's such a thing). I don't see why they wouldn't just add the tax to the cost and keep making them. Even with the tax added, they'd still be an incredibly good value.

[Shawnee]

Hi Plink...


Couldn't agree with you more!

Blue Grouse will still sell locks and some parts but he said he doesn't expect to get locks in for another ten days yet. Said if I, or anyone, was interested they should email him through his website in about 2 weeks. He expects to be selling the locks alone for about $150.
I would love to have both a rifle and a boot pistol - even if I had to buy a kit - but there's no way I can do all the machinist work from scratch and I have no sanely-priced way to contract it done here or the knowledge to ride herd on the quality control of it.:banghead:

Here is the link to the place in Oregon. It's worth a visit just to read the interesting text they have on underhammers.

http://www.pacificrifle.com/catalog.htm

:)

[DutchmanDick]

Shawnee, do you have access to a lathe and milling machine, and know how to use them? I ask because there's just not much to an underhammer gun - which is why so many gunsmiths, and even blacksmiths, made them (at least, that's what Flayderman's Guide seems to indicate)! I've been toying with the idea of making a simple underhammer pistol from scratch myself, but then again I work in a machine shop and have access to use the machinery in the tooling room...

[Shawnee]

Hi Dutchman...

Unfortunately I have neither machinist aptitude nor access to such equipment. I can scratch and gouge wood with some reasonable effect but the closest I ever get to metal is listening to Iron Maiden.:(

Am hoping to bribe, threaten, blackmail, con, or otherwise harrass Jule at BigIron Barrels into deciding he needs to build a few underhammers. Like yourself - he scoffs at the idea that even an excellent underhammer rifle has to cost $1500.

Since they are easy to change barrels for wouldn't it be sweet to have one with a .50 caliber barrel to hunt deer etc. with and a .36 caliber to plink and target-shoot with?:)

If you're thinking of building one you would probably enjoy talking to the fellow at Blue Grouse as he is really a helpful type chap.:)

[AzShooter1]

I looked up Underhammer at http://muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/cgi-bin/mbscart/agora.cgi and found the complete recever for about $70. Then you need the barrel, Breach plug and stock but it should be a decent build.

I orderd the trigger assembly first, am going to play with it and see what I can come up with. I think .36 cal would be nice.

[Clutchcargo]

New here to the forums and may have missed out on some of the conversation but I've got an original Numrich H & A .36 Cal. Buggy Rifle that I'd consider selling. It's browned with nice original wood and in perfect condition. One of the best shooters I've owned. Also have one I rebarreled with a 42" Green Mountain .50 Cal. 1-60" twist round ball barrel some years back for deer hunting. Cold browned with a plain stock and no forearm wood. Anyone interested let me know and I'll try to get some pictures took. Both are solid excellent shooters and ready to go,.... leroyabney.hotmail.com

[phxmark123]

I have a 50mm underhammer that I just decided to sale. I have only shot it about 10 times. Really acurate, a couple inches off, so it would need the fine sited, all cleaning accessories and powder, hmm...I dont think I could mail that though. powder horn for primeing. I found me a new hobby, restoring a 69 firebird and could use the money. $200. I paid double that. Email me for pictures. I live north of Dallas.

[phxmark123]

sorry, 50cal

[phxmark123]

You know what I mean.... .50 cal. underhammer. I think the guy told me it was a 1769 replica...???

[HUnter58]

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showproduct.php?product=199&cat=9

[ducky2]

Blue Grouse is BS. Don't waste any more time there.
Dick Greenside has all new parts to build a good, resonable priced underhammer. Here is link to all info call Richard.
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/;);););)

[billnpatti]

I have found the best and easiest browining solution is made by Mountain Laurel Forge. It is a cold browning solution. Do not polish your parts beyond about 220 grit emery paper. The browning solution needs a little bit of texture in the metal to work. Something to grab onto. Thoroughly remove all signs of grease or finger prints with acetone. Wipe on a coat of the browning solution and place your barrel in a humid place. I use a piece of 4 inch PVC pipe with a plug in one end. I put a cup of water in the botom and hang the barrel in it. Let it stand for about 24 hours and then remove it and rub it with a rough cloth. A piece of burlap works best. Smooth out the surface rust the best you can. De-grease it again and recoat it with the solution. This time let it set only a couple of hours. The time may vary. When you see another coating of rust, again rub it down with the burlap. Degrease it and re-coat it with the solution. These next few coats will require close watching because as the browning process gets started, it speeds up. Do not let it get away from you or you may get some surface pitting. Once the barrel gets to the degree of brown that you want, just remove it and wash it with a baking soda solution to stop the rusting process. At this point, I thoroughly rub it down with a good gun oil such as Ballistol. If you have it, a good coat of bees wax that is rubbed in and buffed thoroughly is traditional. If you don't have bees wax, you can use any paste floor wax. I like to use a wax called Renaissance Wax. It is available from many gun dealers or fine furniture stores.

The process is not at all difficult but it does require that you keep an eye on it and not let the browning process get away from you once it starts. Laurel Forge makes a nice soft flat traditional brown. If you want a more shiney brown, you can use Plum Brown by Birchwood Casey. If you use it, you can polish the barrel a bit more to get the shiney brown finish. You need something like a propane torch to heat your barrel with to get the browning solution to work. You get the barrel hot enough so that water will sizzle on it. Then you wipe on a coat of the browning solution and let the barrel cool. Polish it with a piece of rough cloth and repeat the process until it is as dark as you like. I have used both and the Laurel Forge cold browning is easier to use but takes longer. For small parts, you can't beat Plum Brown. Just hold them with a pair of pliers over the kitchen stove until they are hot enough and swab on the Plum Brown. Two or three coats and you have a beautifuly browned part. It is the larger parts that are just a bit harder to get evenly heated and coated for an even brown. Oh, you will eventually get there. No doubt about that but it is just harder to heat and coat a large piece like a barrel. At least that is my opinion based upon having browned several rifles and using both Laurel Forge cold browning solution and Plum Brown. Either will get you there but neither is an instant browning solution. Have patience and work carefully and follow the instructions that come with both.

[billnpatti]

I am in the process of building an underhammer rifle. When finished, it will have cost me over $500. I bought the action, sights, under barrel lugs, stock, etc from Deer Creek Products. They no longer advertise these parts for sale but if you contact them, they have a few left on the shelves. I had to order the barrel from Long Hammock. The folks at Deer Creek just boxed up my parts and sent them to Riley Smith at Long Hammock in Florida so he could make a barrel for it. For a reasonable fee, he will do as much of the machine work as you want. I had him install the breach plug, the nipple and cut the dove tails for the sights. He has a lot of business so be patient with him. It took almost 6 months to get my barrel made and the machine work done. The barrels are excellent and worth the wait. The rest of the work is not hard and just requires patience and attention to detail. I am almost finished and will soon have mine out to the gun club for a test run.

[billnpatti]

I am currently building excactly the same rifle as you did. How did you attach your forestock? There is so little clearance between the ram rod and the barrel that the room for underbarrel lugs is almost non-existant. I talked to the guy who owns Deer Creek and he said that some folks drill the pin holes right through the bottom of the barrel. This seems awfully risky to me and I am afraid to try doing it. I am at a point where I am winding my butt and scratching my watch trying to figure out what to do to hold that forestock on. What is your secret?

[ducky2]

Yes, be carefull and drill 2 .062-.074 holes through bottom of barrel to mount forend

[weet]

Blue Grouse is BS. Don't waste any more time there.
Dick Greenside has all new parts to build a good, resonable priced underhammer. Here is link to all info call Richard.
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/;);););)
whats the number for longrifles ? richard ?

that link dont work. [at least not for me]


weet

[MutinousDoug]

Weet,
Just type in the address. Without the smiley faces. The hot link doesn't work for me either. I don't see any reference to underhammers there though.
Doug