Mall Shooting in Maryland


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DouglasW
November 19, 2006, 04:24 PM
Fist fight/beating in mall:

off-duty Federal LEO/good samaritan steps in to break it up,
one of several perps draws and fires, wounding FLEO,
FLEO draws and returns fire, wounding shooter.
Mayhem ensues.


ANNAPOLIS, Maryland (AP) -- An off-duty Secret Service agent was shot after intervening in a fight in a shopping mall food court Saturday evening, and he returned fire, wounding the shooter, police said.

A third person was also shot in the melee, and all were hospitalized in stable condition late Saturday, said Officer Sara Schriver, an Anne Arundel County police spokeswoman.

The agent was at the Westfield Annapolis mall with his family shortly after 7 p.m. when he saw a group of men attacking another man, Schriver said. (Watch as people describe the chaos -- 1:21) Video

"They all just started attacking one individual ... physically assaulting him, punching him," she said.

The agent tried to break up the fight, and someone in the group drew a gun and started firing, she said.

"He ran across the food court with his gun and was shooting at people," witness Lindsay Busch told WJZ-TV.

After the agent was shot, he drew his handgun and returned fire, wounding the shooter, police said. A third person was shot during the gunfight, but it was not clear who shot that person, Schriver said.

The agent and the shooter were flown to the University of Maryland Shock Trauma Center in Baltimore. The third victim was driven to a local hospital.

Their identities were not released.

Dozens of people witnessed what Schriver characterized as "a very traumatic and terrorizing incident."

"We had families there and juveniles, [a] typical Saturday night for you at the mall," she said.

Video surveillance footage of the scene was turned over to police, said Scott deGraffenreid, the mall's marketing director. He said mall management would not comment on the incident, citing the ongoing investigation.

Ray Leone, manager of the Borders Books & Music across from the food court, said he heard at least 10 gunshots, and dozens of people ran into his store in a panic.

"It's really not very normal, way out of the commonplace," he said.

Source (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/18/maryland.shootings.ap/index.html) -- Prayers for the Secret Service agent, and his family.

What lessons can we learn from this?
1. Should we stick our noses into other peoples' fights? (I certainly commend the agent for stepping in...too many people today would just look the other way).
2. If you step into a fight amongst strangers, be prepared for escalation?
3. Shopping Malls are no safe havens -- they can be just as dangerous as anywhere else?
4. The People of Maryland (not just LEOs) deserve CCW?

I'd be curious to learn if the agent identified himself before being shot (i.e. did the shooter realize he was shooting an LEO) edit: and I'd love to see the surveillance video...any guesses on how long until it hits youtube :rolleyes:

Other thoughts?

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Tyril
November 19, 2006, 04:32 PM
But ... but! Firearms are highly regulated in Maryland!

We obviously need to ban them altogether!


-mike

Merc41
November 19, 2006, 04:47 PM
They are definitely trying to do just that I feel. I will be living in the free state of Virginia next year and can't wait!!!

twenty711
November 19, 2006, 05:22 PM
Okay so I was just there the previous night!

Can you clarify something? On your numbered statements why do you have a question mark on number 4?

I don't even own a pistol primarly because I know I would be hard pressed to obtain a CCW here. I know Maryland sucks and O'Malley will fit right in.

Manedwolf
November 19, 2006, 05:41 PM
Maybe because the street trash shot a Secret Service officer, he might actually do some hard time instead of being let out on the street again.

Nahh...

DouglasW
November 19, 2006, 05:45 PM
Can you clarify something? On your numbered statements why do you have a question mark on number 4?

I was merely posing them in question form to foster classroom discussion. I was hoping my using bold would convey my feelings that all states should be shall-issue -- guess I need to be more explicit next time :o .

Though I currently enjoy living in a shall-issue state, I lived in Maryland for my first 22 years and still have family there. I find it's politics puzzling -- sandwiched between shall-issue Pennsylvania and Virginia...its looking more anti-gun everyday. :banghead:

What the article says to me is:
1. Danger/violence can occur anywhere
2. Gun bans/strict control don't work -- the same guys who would beat a victim in the middle of a family-filled food court will also obtain/carry firearms, whether legal or not.
3. Everyone should have the opportunity/means to defend themselves, if necessary. Among other measures, CCW should be shall-issue in every state.

Sindawe
November 19, 2006, 05:56 PM
1. Should we stick our noses into other peoples' fights? (I certainly commend the agent for stepping in...too many people today would just look the other way).Depends apon the circumstances. If all participants are giving and getting a whooping on a fairly equal basis, no. Not my fight, not my problem.

If someone is on the floor, curled into a fetal position and being hit with chairs, yes I'm gonna get involved.2. If you step into a fight amongst strangers, be prepared for escalation?Most definitely.

Shopping Malls are no safer than any other public area. OK, maybe ski runs are safer. ;)

Bob F.
November 19, 2006, 08:14 PM
Been thinking about this since I heard it on the news this AM. I'd probably get involved if I knew who was who. Otherwise take cover and defend position.

SWMBO and I both "can and do". After watching all the crap regarding the Playstations, she said she isn't shopping after dark, if avoidable, and we'll go/stay together. Not like the "big city" here, but enough to make us cautious.

Prayers for the LEO and any "innocents".

Bob

Soybomb
November 19, 2006, 09:00 PM
If its clearly thugs fighting I wouldn't be stepping in. If the person getting pummeled looks highly unlikely to be a thug voluntarily brawling I'll probably try to help the other person out if I can. I can only help someone would do the same for me or my friends or family.

If anything I think shopping malls are a little extra dangerous. You have all sorts of different groups of people packed into a small space, stressing about the holidays, and bumping into each other.

Manedwolf
November 19, 2006, 09:04 PM
The one problem with gangbanger trash getting into a firefight in a mall is that unless they're put down quickly, their aim is so lousy with their side-hold gangsta grip that they unfortunately won't hit each other...they'll just hit innocent bystanders.

CrazyIrishman
November 19, 2006, 09:56 PM
DouglasW,

Don't know how long you've been gone, but unfortunately there is a better chance of PEE WEE Herman being elected our next president than the citizens here in Maryland being able to get CCW!!

As it stands now, the darlings at the state police control who gets a carry permit! If you're a politician or other bigwig,getting one is probably a phone call away! OTOH, if you're a lowly serf in this state then FORGET IT!! The odds of getting a permit is between slim and none! To just have a chance at getting one you need documentation (police reports) to show you've been threatened or attacked before and even then its still doubtful.

Last year in the General Assembly some pro-gun delegates tried to pass a bill to change the process to get a CCW and it didn't happen and that was with a Republican Governor in office! Now we have Governor who is so anti-gun he makes McCain look appealing!

And I don't believe Maryland honors another states' permit either!

chaim
November 20, 2006, 09:37 AM
I don't know if the CNN report or the local news reports have the details wrong, but it does change the facts a bit. According to local news on Sat night:

-A group of TEENS attack a single teen then draws a gun on him.
-Secret Service agent at mall with his family confronts them (after the teen thugs' gun is already drawn)
-S. Service agent is shot by thug w/ gun
-S. Service agent shoots thug w/ gun
-Another teen (unsure if the target of original attack, one of the group of attackers, or bystander) is shot
-All were in serious but stable condition by 11-o-clock news

These thugs were teens- I wonder how long before the family sues the S. Service agent. The S. Service agent was there with his family and went into a group where a gun was already drawn- takes some courage to do that.

One thing on the news that drove me crazy- locals saying "I didn't think it could happen here". Darn straight it can "happen here", it can happen anywhere, at any time, to anyone. All you have to do is look some thug's way in a way he doesn't like, or be in his way when he's in a bad mood, or have something he thinks he wants, etc. Exactly why we NEED CCW in MD (and everywhere). Of course, even though these teens were already breaking the law (carry in MD, teens with guns without adult supervision, I wouldn't be surprised if they had records which ban them from ownership, and the gun was probably stolen) you KNOW the antis who control MD will be citing this as proof of the need for more gun restrictions.

Anyway, I know this area. I've been to this mall on several occasions, I often drive by, and I work about 15min away. Annapolis is pretty upscale, but there are some seedy parts as well. The mall is pretty yuppiefied, but it is a mall- everyone goes there. Annapolis (like everywhere) does have some gang issues. I also wonder (they were teens involved) if any of my students or other students at the school where I teach were involved.

OH25shooter
November 20, 2006, 10:25 AM
If a weapon was pulled (at a crowded indoor mall) I'm actually surprised a plain clothes Secret service agent intervened. If the s*** hits the fan, which it did, how can you return fire with a crowd of people nearby? Playing a monday quarterback roll, maybe a call to 911 and mall security (I know they are unarmed), plus close follow up observation of the shooter would have been a better plan. None the less, I hope the agent recovers quickly and the shooter is sentenced just as quickly.

quatin
November 20, 2006, 10:45 AM
:what: maybe the mall ninja was right. If only this mall had a "Task Force Response Team" things could've gone differently.:scrutiny:

jcoiii
November 20, 2006, 01:50 PM
I'd probably step in. Especially if a gun was drawn. I'm an LEO, and I carry everywhere I can. (here in TN, off duty officers have basically the same laws as CCW holders). I bring up the LEO thing only to say that my mindset is (forgive the cliche) to protect and serve, on duty and off.

-Tell the Mrs. to take cover and call 911.
-Get into good firing position. By that I mean, cover AND a good line of fire if possible. (If I have a bad backdrop, I'm not firing.)
-Yell "Police, drop the gun!" for two reason. First to try and get the guy to drop the gun. Second to alert bystanders to get down
-If I thought the guy was even remotely close to thinking about firing the gun, he's getting 2 rounds COM.

That's just my hypothetical response since I've gone into "What do I think I'd do in this situation?" mode.

History Prof
November 20, 2006, 02:10 PM
-Tell the Mrs. to take cover and call 911.
-Get into good firing position. By that I mean, cover AND a good line of fire if possible. (If I have a bad backdrop, I'm not firing.)
-Yell "Police, drop the gun!" for two reason. First to try and get the guy to drop the gun. Second to alert bystanders to get down
-If I thought the guy was even remotely close to thinking about firing the gun, he's getting 2 rounds COM.What? You wouldn't shoot a couple of warning shots into the ceiling? You wouldn't shoot the gun out of his hand?:neener:

Damn hollywood and their portrayal of cops.....:rolleyes:

Seriously, I gotta wonder, if the BG had already drawn his weapon, if the SS agent *didn't* do things the way you describe, but the media just hasn't properly reported it... Too few facts on our end to know what really happened.

Don't Tread On Me
November 20, 2006, 02:31 PM
Maryland?


'nuff said.

Norton
November 20, 2006, 02:40 PM
This particular incident is one of a long series of incidents that have occured as the result of feuds between several groups (we're carefully avoiding using the term gang:rolleyes: ) of "disadvantaged youths" living in a variety of public housing complexes and low rent apartments along the Forest Drive corridor.

For whatever reason, these opposing groups (remember, they're not gangs) have taken to fights at the football games at Annapolis HS, during school at AHS and just about anywhere else that they feel like going at each other. In the last month or so, there have been at least two fights where in each case 7 students were arrested on school grounds.

The young man that was jumped at the mall during this incident was involved in one of the fights at AHS earlier in the school year. This was not random violence nor was it an isolated incident involving this group of people.

I rarely go to that mall. Mostly to go to the Border's Books. The rest of it could cave in as far as I'm concerned

OH25shooter
November 20, 2006, 02:53 PM
I bring up the LEO thing only to say that my mindset is (forgive the cliche) to protect and serve, on duty and off.

To protect and serve...yes by all means. But drawing down on a suspect in a crowded shopping mall. Remember the agent was in street clothes with his family. Maybe training is different in TN. I've been retired some years, but when I instructed 'off-duty officer survival', if memory serves me, the first rule was the general publics OVERALL safety. Know your surroundings. Are innocent civilians close by, etc. Always identify yourself as a police officer. What's your backup plan? Granted, neither one of us were on scene, but I'm sure my role would have been different from yours.

silverbird
November 20, 2006, 03:11 PM
the first rule was the general publics OVERALL safety. I don't think the general public was too safe with a thug waiving a gun around. Might as well have a good-guy with a gun as well.

twenty711
November 20, 2006, 05:53 PM
Just FYI; talked to some people who were there; they said the first LEO showed up 30 minutes after (including the 18 year olds with badges i.e. "mall security")

Ohen Cepel
November 20, 2006, 06:09 PM
Sad state of affairs.

Won't comment on the SS agent's reaction, wasn't there and lot of info missing.

Worse is the the pinko liberal maggots will think that the poor people in MD need more BS laws (last I checked minors carrying concealed weapons and shooting people in a mall was breaking many laws).

I just hope it doesn't get worse for the good people stuck there.

As for the gangs. They need to be treated the same as a pack of dogs which threaten society.

Spot77
November 20, 2006, 11:43 PM
I just spoke with a secret service agent and a county police officer (both good friends of mine) about this. The county police want it hushed up for some unknown political reason and the secret service isn't commenting on it. Seems one of the "victims" had nothing more than a welt on them......still classified as a gunshot. Coud've been flying brass is the speculation.

The_Shootist
November 20, 2006, 11:49 PM
10 gunshots and two WOUNDED won't even get ya very far in Houston. Unless a couple of bodies drop, it won't even make the papers :evil:

Norton
November 21, 2006, 06:28 AM
Here's your reason for them wanting it hushed up
Neighborhood leaders in Annapolis are planning a separate meeting tonight to discuss the violence. The meeting, organized by activist Carl O. Snowden, will be held at 6 p.m. at Asbury United Methodist Church on West Street in Annapolis.

For the unitiated, Mr. Snowden is our resident shakedown artist in the vein of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Those that know him from his HS days say he was the biggest bully in the school. He's just got a bigger forum to bully.....the whole county.

Look for a demand for more money for "programs" and I wouldn't be surprised if this were the opening salvo in the gun ban attack for next session.

WVleo
November 21, 2006, 07:48 AM
Hi, I ran a small museum in Sharpsburg, Md for a couple of years and of the three partners 1 was A.A. Co Ex Janet Owens . Her childhood friend Billy Chaney was the main investor in the museum . He also was Her campaign finance director . Chaney use to use Snowden every time He wanted something to look not racist . Snowden is a Owens puppet and does as He is told . All are Members of Old South Country Club and Snowden is a member so they have a couple token blacks . Chaney use to call Me yankee all the time, which didn't bother Me but He consider a slur. He use to laugh about getting awards from NAACP for His finacial Donations from " Those People " ! The whole group of them acted as if the rest of the state were there serfs ! He was disrespectful 1 time to My wife and I flat out told Him If he ever talked to her that way again I would rearrange His face and Had him appologize. What a wus when there money can't bail them out. I am not surprised at anything that happens in Maryland after dealing with some of it's " Elite" .....................W " By God " VLeo

Poodleshooter
November 21, 2006, 01:18 PM
I used to go to school just down the street from that mall. It was always a funny mixing of thugging and yuppies.
People wonder why I left MD to go live in the boonies...

One thing is certain,this won't do a thing for concealed carry efforts in MD,with the interceding SS agent being wounded.
Hopefully he recovers well.

Norton
November 22, 2006, 05:51 AM
Well, here's the predictable solution to the problem according to Snowden's meeting:

Parents, teachers, and community leaders agreed to form a coalition to look at possible solutions including a gun buy-back program and adding self-esteem and anger management classes to the curriculum.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-md.ar.internet22nov22,0,1977929.story?page=2&coll=bal-pe-maryland

Spot77
November 22, 2006, 08:39 AM
The same tired solutions that haven't worked anywhere else.

What's next, midnight basketball games? :banghead:

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