[ChuckB]

Hello again. I spent some time at my local indoor range today. There were some young "hotshots" in the adjacent room, shooting as fast as they could pull their triggers. They were warned to slow their fire, to follow range rules. They did so- for about two minutes- then did it their own way again. When I checked some of their targets after they left, I noticed that the target BG's were pretty safe under that whithering fire. Very few shots hit the black. I understand, from the range operators and my own shooting friends, that LEO's rarely practice and, if they do, don't have a clue HOW to practice. I don't mean to paint all law enforcement officers with the same broad brush, as I'm sure that many of you who are on this Forum don't fall into that category, and I have tremendous respect for you. My question: is this observation common, or a rarity? Thanks for your input.

Chuck:confused:

[braindead0]

Every LEO that I know says most of their coworkers consider the pistol a tool and simply shoot enough to qualify. One of our locals told me that the qualifier his dept. shoots is 50 rounds at a standard sillhouette, all they have to do is get all 50 rounds on the target at 20 feet.

It seems that they're either crummy shots (majority) or pretty darned good. Had a 2 or 3 LEO's come to our IDPA classifier last weekend, the worst shooter shot Marksman and the best Expert.. no bad for the first IDPA trip.

[Bruegger]

Well, I can shoot and I know how to practice.

Shooting is like any other hand-eye skill. It requires regular practice. Many people, whether LEOs, military or other, just don't have the time or make the time for regular practice.

IME, most LEOs view their firearms as a tool, and not the most important one in the toolbox. Statistically, that makes a lot of sense. LEOs are thousands of times more likely to need to talk to someone than to need to shoot them. Many officers will never have to fire their weapon in the line of duty and that's a good thing.

[AK103K]

I encountered something similar at our indoor range a few years back. The local cops came in to qualify, two young cops and the chief. They got to go in ahead of us, which annoyed us as we were there first, but thats the ranges rule, they get certain available lanes when they come in. I asked the boy at the counter, who we knew pretty well, if we could have the lane on their left when it came available and that we would wait. Knowing we were going to be shooting full autos he smiled and said sure. When we got out there the chief was putting them through their paces. The next time the next boy steped up and was just starting to shoot, I stepped into our booth and dumped a full mag at one pull of the trigger. The look on the cheifs face when I was done and looked over at him was well worth the wait! :) We took turns doing this off and on for the next hour, much to the cheifs, and his cops chagrin. Even at 7 yards, they were having trouble keeping groups under "dinner plate" size. :) Hey, we were just doing our part to put them under a little stress. I know they got some brass down their shirts a couple of times as it was going over the top of the booth. At one point the cheif asked to have us moved and the boy at the counter said there was no other place to put us or them. I still get a giggle out of it when we occasionally see them there. Havent had to wait on them either. :)

[foghornl]

Been several months back....

Some guy was shooting in the next lane from me, with maybe a Glock 21. Noticed he was blasting a lot of rounds before changing mags. Had his sillo target at seven yards, looked more like a 40-Yd buckshot pattern than anything else. Put up his next target, and sent it down to 5 yds...closer, but still most of the shots were not in the black sillo.

Next target he set out to about 3 yds....at least all of those were in the black. I brought in my 7-Yd target, and all were within the 8-ring, mostly inside the 9.

"WOW! I didn't know anybody could shoot like that. What're ya shootin?"

"A Ruger KP-90 in .45ACP"

"Same bullet I shoot. Well, my Agency says I gotta qualify every year"

Let him try my Ruger @ 7 Yds, no better than with his Glock. He finally admitted that he was Dept of Agriculture..didn't say if State or Fed, but said he liked to "carry concealed". Thought about it, but decided not to tell him he would be better off filling the barrel and chamber with concrete, to better use as a throwing weapon....

[Smoke]

I've seen both, some can; some can't.

Local SO deputies are mostly gun guys. Some of them are very good. Local Police can't shoot worth a dang.

The facility where I go to learn from the master has instructors that are mostly current law enforcement. They are all very good.
He did try out a new guy at one of the courses I took. The new guy had an impressive resume citing much military/law enforcement/ and certifications. He couldn't hit a barn from the inside with the doors closed.

[Morgan]

Well, most of the guys I hang with at work take it seriously, and are pretty good. Perhaps birds of a feather flock together, as I'm not bad, myself.

Part of it is the training, and we're lucky to have an excellent range staff, a good culture, and (a rarity for large departments) we get to choose our sidearm.

I know some on the job who really need work - perhaps a bit of pride keeps them from going to the range too often because they don't want to be embarrassed by their lack of skill, even though they know they need the practice/training.

[ACP230]

I used to shoot PPC-type matches with cops in a couple of area towns. The ones who showed up to shoot were pretty good.
One went head to head with one of the best shooters I know and the winner won or lost by one point, if I remember right.
(I can't remember which one it was either, it was a while back.)

Another cop in my immediate area used to do well at Turkey Shoots with an Ithaca pump shotgun. He wasn't too bad with a .32 ACP pocket pistol I saw him practicing with once.

I don't know about the cops who never show up at matches.

[Blueduck]

I work around police and deputies with 6 agencies and have attended several shoots. 90%+ are good shots who do well at the realistic qualification courses. Now as for standing stock still and slowely squeezing of 10 shots at a static target for a pretty group don't know how they would compare...

[Dave Williams]

Hi there,

I'm a cop and used to shoot at OPS pretty successfully.......I just saw the Karls at the OGCA show last weekend and they told me about your new club.......I'll be coming down to shoot with you guys, and am looking forward to it, I'll try to bring some of my coworkers. See you there.

Dave Williams

[Gerald McDonald]

The more correct phrase should be "Can people hit anything". All of the LEO's I know are just about like all of the people I know. Some are damn good, some good and some couldnt hit the broad side of a barn.
Gerald

[Blueduck]

All of the LEO's I know are just about like all of the people I know.

All the LEO's I know ARE people ;)
(well with the exeption of couple of K-9's I guess :scrutiny: )

[Standing Wolf]

Years ago when I was co-captain of a bullseye pistol team at a sporting club, we always trounced the police and sheriff's department teams, held our own against the other sporting club teams, and consistently lost to the prison guards' team. They were impressive.

[ChuckB]

Well, my original point was that LEO's are more likely to need their sidearm in the line of duty. If he/she is an accurate shooter, the BG is more likely to be immobilized; if a poor shooter, then the BG may harm the officer or another person, or the LEO's errant bullet may strike an innocent bystander. To me, these are important points.

Chuck

[Handy]

Some of the best shots I've seen are cops. Goes both ways.

Some of the worst I've seen are firearms enthusiasts.

[capt_happypants]

I think that the gun enthusiasists gravitate towards SWAT units, since they're able to play with cool Class III toys on a regular basis. Two major SWAT units here in the Land of Perkiness practice on a weekly basis.

I suspect that many officers want to do well, but they don't put in the practice. Training has improved immensely, but it's not possible to recreate the stress of a real-life scenario at the range. It's akin to taking someone who has skied twice a year on groomed bunny hills, and then throwing them down the backside of Copper Bowl in a raging blizzard. I'm not surprised when I hear of police shootings with a hit rate somewhere in the low teens.

[Gerald McDonald]

OK Blueduck you got me on that one.

Gerald

[Landric]

OK,

I shoot mostly at a public gun range. There are a lot of people who shoot there who are horrible shots. Some of them are LEOs, some are not. I would guess that most people who own guns, cops or not, do not shoot them often enough to be really good.

In my experience, most cops do not carry off-duty much of the time. Most of them will carry when they travel, but not when just running around the area the live. I find this very strange, especially since we as a group can carry most of the places people carrying on CCW permits cannot.

A lot of departments don't have much in the way of firearms training. I recently changed departments. My old PD had a lot of training, a lot of practice ammo, and a lot of good instructors. The department I switched to does not have any firearms training at all. We qualify once a year, and that is it. One only needs a 70% to qualify, and so long as the officer gets a 70% the first time, they don't get to shoot anymore till the next year. The department does not even buy practice ammo. We shoot up our duty ammo once a year to qualify, replace it, and that is it.

Since I am a firearms instructor, I am working on changing that, but I have only been at the department for a few months and its a slow process. As best I can tell, the reason a lot of our people can't shoot is that they have never had any training to speak of, they have no access to practice ammo or a place to shoot, and they have no motivation to improve. Only the officers who are "into guns" spend their own time and money at the range, so they are the only ones who can shoot well.

Our qualification course consists of the following:

5 Yards:

2 rounds in 3 seconds, from holster,
2 rounds in 3 seconds, from holster,
2 rounds in 3 seconds, from holster,
4 rounds, strong hand only, 8 seconds, from holster,
4 rounds, weak hand only, 10 seconds, from holster

7 Yards:

2 rounds in 3 seconds, from holster,
2 rounds in 3 seconds, from holster,
2 rounds in 3 seconds, from holster,
6 rounds in 8 seconds, from holster

15 Yards:

2 rounds in 3 seconds, from holster,
2 rounds in 3 seconds, from low ready,
2 rounds in 3 seconds, from low ready,
6 rounds in 12 seconds, from low ready

25 Yards:

12 rounds, 6 kneeling, 6 standing, from holster, 45 seconds

This is known as the Virginia T.Q.C. (Tactical Qualification Course). Its not really hard, but not really easy for a non-expert shooter. We use a standard Q-Target with the milk bottle shape. Hits inside the bottle are worth 5 points, hits outside the milk bottle are worth 3 points. The maximum point score is 250, which is mulitplied by 0.4 to get the percentage score. You have to get 175 points out of 250 to qualify at a 70%. So, its quite possible to miss all your rounds at 25 yards and a couple at 15 yards and still qualify.

I do not consider qualification to be realistic. It's a box checking, nothing more. I am working on getting some actual training for our officers, but fighting tradition and trying to get a practice ammunition budget and time to train is an uphill battle.

So, the reason that a lot of cops can't shoot is the same reason so many non-cops can't shoot. No training, no practice, and not enough money to pay for either themselves.

[makdaddy03]

I once saw a "LEO" shoot five rds at a rabid coon and missed. LOL!! He got him on the sixth shot then it had to be shot again. seven rds one coon.:neener:

[PrudentGT]

Thank god the 10-rd magazine limit doesn't apply to LEO's (yet) -- there could've been more than one raccoon!!

[355sigfan]

Most cops are not gun people. I am one of my departments firearms instuctors. and I would say about 1/3 of the officers are terrible, about 1/2 are fair and the rest are excellent gun nut types.

Here in Alaska the training police is very good in regards to firearms. The Anchorage Police Department has a 90% hit ratio in actual gun fights while the Alaska State Troopers used to have 90% but it recently fell to 70% after a few high round count shootings. Still thats very good as the national average is about 20% for police officers.
PAT

[Hal]

fog,
Dept of Arg-i-culture?!?!

Jeeze, nice to know the Corn-stalk cops can carry here in Ohio. I feel safer already knowing the potato police can defend themselves against a felonious spud,,,,,but the rest of us poor saps are stuck making ugly faces at bad guys.:banghead: :banghead:


Can LEO's hit anything?
*shrug*
Doesn't matter one way or the other to me.
Ain't my tail on the line. If they don't want to take the time, or have the interest, that ain't MY concern.

[mete]

A recent NYPD study showed that in shootouts the cops hit 10% of the time !! Mostly due to poor training. The tendency is to empty the gun, so in a high capacity auto its 15 rounds and they rarely hit. In the old days it was a 6 round revolver , they still emptied it but the hit probability was 20%

[stevelyn]

I'm the firearms instructor for my department and fortunately just due to our numbers and life experiences all of us are good shots. Where I see weaknesses is neglect in the maintenance area.
The marine environment wreaks havoc on weapons especially the shotguns which are kept in electro-locks in the vehicles. The combination of damp, salt air, temperature changes, and horizontal rain batters them constantly and at the very least need to be inspected and wiped down weekly.

[Coronach]

Like everything else, it varies.

I know a lot of cops who are frighteningly good shots. I know a handful of cops who are frighteningly poor shots. Most are pretty evenly distributed in between.

A lot of police are not gun people, as has been mentioned. They view the weaponry as just another tool. They practice with it enough to qualify, and thats it. Want to know what is really ironic? I was watching one of our SWAT guys go to town with his AR, then switch to his H&K USP. I couldn't really see what he was doing with the AR, but i got a good look at his groups with the USP. They were frightening. He was doing a mozambique drill from at least 25' (more, I think), on the move, from the holster, in rapid fashion...and his groups were infuriatingly small. I start chatting with him afterwards about how he likes the USP, compared to the gun they just switched from (S&W 4506-1). he says:Yeah. Its better, I guess. I dunno. I'm really not into guns. My scores went up a little with it, so its better, I suppose.*sigh*

The man is a ninja, and is completely unimpressed by his own talent.

Ah well. :)

Mike

[Coronach]

Also, media bias helps in the perception that cops are poor shots. For example, anyone know how many people were shot by police in Ohio in the past two-week period? I doubt many do, because I know of two good shoots in that timeframe that I cannot find anywhere in the news. they got blurbs on the 11 o'clock report, a one paragraph mention in the Disgrace, and they're forgotten.

However, spray bullets all over the place and they'll be talking about you for weeks.

Confronting a BG and taking 2 righteous shots, both of which hit, is newsworthy for a day, at most.

Mike

[DWS1117]

Are there any LE agencies that require regular practice with duty weapons? Say 100 rounds a month provided by the agency.

[Coronach]

I'm sure there are.

My agency requires quarterly qualification, and has a free range day once per week, when you can sign out as much ammo as you want, provided you shoot it all there.

This latter point varies depending upon who has their undies in a knot about what at any given time. Sometimes the rule is "sign out 100 rounds, and only shoot 100 rounds". Other times is it "sign out 100 rounds, shoot whatever you want." Now it is "sign out and shoot what you want." We're due to go back to "100-only" in a few months, I'm sure...but don't ask don't tell will be back in effect by fall. :cool:

Mike

[obiwan1]

We also have to qual 4x annually. They used to give us 150 rounds to take with us to practice. In the last couple of years they have gravitated to "return your brass and we'll give you 2x that amount in practice ammo, not to exceed 150 rounds"

Most of agents/officers shoot at a barely qualified level. They just don't get it.:banghead:

[ElAlumno]

I spent several years at the academy as a firearms and tactics instructor as well as a couple of years doing the SWAT thing.

Like most here have said, there were good, okay and lousy shots. We tried our best, but the most difficult thing was overcoming the attitude of many (should I say most) officers. It is hard to teach a person to shoot well if all they care about is shooting their 70% once a year and that’s it.

Having said that, I have seen all sorts of shooting results in the real world. The SWAT guy that cranks of a dozen rounds with only one non COM hit. The barely shoots 70% patrol officer that shots one round and gets a perfect COM instant stop. It is hared to predict all the time, but those things happen.

Bottom line to me though is this, practice, practice, practice.

[Serpico]

"Can LEO's hit anything?
*shrug*
Doesn't matter one way or the other to me.
Ain't my tail on the line. If they don't want to take the time, or have the interest, that ain't MY concern."

I like to think I care about all LEO's who are out there..whether they are good shots or not....but I guess this is just your frustration of not being able to carry.....


Since most of you are gun fanatics, it is hard to concieve of cops not practicing as much as you think you would..the fact is, once the intial excitement of wearing a badge wears off, things like shooting tend to lose their allure...especially when you are forced to qualify...just human nature....and it is doubly hard for those of you who desperately want to carry but can't to understand...also, being a crack bullseye shooter doesn't mean you will come out on top in a real shoot out.....that is more about state of mind and relfexes...

[AK103K]

Ain't my tail on the line. If they don't want to take the time, or have the interest, that ain't MY concern."
I'll bet you change your mind if your standing next to the boy he's "trying" to shoot. :)

[Erik]

As with non-LEOs, some shoot often and well, some not-so-often and not-so-well.

I'll second the fact that the media is only interested in evidence demonstrating the poor technical competence of LEOs and firearms.

[agtman]

Well, I have my own opinion on whether LEOs can shoot (at least the many I've witnessed over the years), and it ain't real flattering.

Suffice it to say that within a larger LEO group there will always be a number of highly-motivated shooters who practice a lot on their own - God bless 'em - but they're in a minority, in my area anyway. For the rest, their issue weapon appears to be just another thing they're required to carry on their belts between qualifications to keep the paychecks coming in, or so it would seem.

Anyway, in my area, Coronach's "quarterly qualifications" would be the exception to the rule. It's sure what I'd impose, were I running things. But most around here do it ONCE-A-YEAR, 50rds fired. A couple have recently gone to twice a year. This, I believe, is a post-9/11 change for those Depts. The courses of fire are pathetically easy, too. Maybe on one stage there's a mandatory reload. Doesn't matter though, because on each stage you'll get 3 chances to "pass" that stage. Even then some cops still have trouble and have to re-shoot the whole 50-rd course.

I've seen anal police administrators, who tend toward the politically-correct on the "gun thing" anyway, get an attitude over the time and cost involved for even this minimalist firearms "training": Hurry up, get it done. Quit wasting time at the range. Get 'em back on the street, or they'll be hell to pay if we run into overtime.

So yeah, you could say I'm somewhat jaded on the subject. :rolleyes:

[P95Carry]

I can't help but keep thinking .. if i were a cop but not a real gun ''enthusiast'' - I would still I am sure want to be as max in proficiency as i could get.

I mean .. if I am armed and my life is on the line .............. surely I'd wanna hit the perp ..... not miss!!

Maybe the ''less keen'' cops don't think of it this way.

[Landric]

Howdy,

OK, there is something else I didn't bring up earlier because I'm not sure that it effects anyone except me.

Before I was an LEO I went to the range a minimum of once a week and fired 200-300 rounds of ammunition, mostly from 9x19 and .45ACP handguns, plus some practice with a .38 Special backup gun. It was fun, my skills really improved, and I figured it would help me once I reached my goal of becoming a police officer. I shot mostly at human shaped targets. I wasn't fooling myself, I was not shooting to win contests or for hunting, I was shooting just in case I ever needed the skills to shoot another person.

Once I became an LEO, I started pointing guns at people for real. At least so far, I have never had to shoot, but I have come really close. I was halfway through the DA trigger pull on my duty Beretta 92 when I realized that the "gun" in the perp's hand was a cap pistol. That happened less than a year into my time on the job.

Shooting was suddenly a lot less fun because it had taken on a reality for me. I went a year or so without going to the range outside department requirements ( three times a year at that PD). Eventually I worked my way back into shooting on my own, but I have never made it back to the level I was at before I got into LE. I shoot about 200-300 rounds per month now out of my handguns.

Cops have to "use" guns on the street a lot more often than non-LEO gun carriers, and I suspect that shooting is a lot less fun for them also.

[P95Carry]

Landric - you do have a point there ..... most of us are fortunate enough to not have to come face to face with that sorta reality. And, sure as hell .. I hope I never have to shoot ..... ANYONE.

I do tho still think (imagine) that I would still want my gun to be my ''best friend'', as a cop ... both to better protect my life, and also to better protect others. I certainly would like that percentage of cops who train little and care little also about proficiency .... to increase their skills ... for the good of all.

[Watchman]

Interesting comments by all.

FWIW, I just had to do my semi-annual qualification for the Sherrif Dept. last Saturday.

I didnt do as well as I should have. I shot 249 out of a possible 250.

3 others scored the same.

Out of 50 deputys, most were in the 220-230 range.
About a dozen or so were in the 230-240 range.

Two failed and were given a chance to requal, which they did. The passing score is 200.

All in all, I dont consider that bad shooting.

Landric is correct. Its just a matter of time till an LEO draws his weapon and points it at someone whether it be for a felony stop or an irate drunk husband shooting his gun up in the air for effect.

Although I still consider it fun to shoot, it does take on a more urgent nature than it used too.

Another thing, and its just my opinion...

All that shooting at aB27 target proves is that you can hit a man sized stationary target 50 times in a row.

It dont mean much in the real world, for some reason people dont stand in one spot while you are trying to shoot them.The light or visibilty is never good, you cant really be sure of what they have in their hand until you see a muzzle flash, and shooting at a target is nothing like shooting at someone shooting back at you while your heart rate increases to 200 beats a minute, you have a major adrenaline dump and the sense of urgency becomes reality.

[P95Carry]

I didnt do as well as I should have. I shot 249 out of a possible 250. Watchman ...... shame on you Sir!!!

I jest!!:D :D

[Sunray]

Well, ya know, up here, I know all kinds of cops. Generally, a good bunch of guys, at least the ones I know personally. The ones I've dealt with through my assorted driving mistakes are not bad guys either, if you treat them as a guy doing a job.
However, most cops have never seen a firearm prior to getting hired. They get their BA and can't find a job, so they apply. Ok, we have educated cops up here. Doesn't make them smart.
They get bugger all firearm training on basic and not a whole lot after. And they don't make use of the cheap practice ammo available to them. Used to shoot ISU with cop teams. Good guys, but some would use their POS service revovler and we regularly cleaned their clocks. Hard to beat tuned revolvers and Walther .32's with a Smith M10 that you're not allowed to fix the trigger on. Some of the FNG cops had the I'm a cop, why do you have a gun?, attitude. Not many though. Most of the time we'd discuss the merits of my Ruger GP100 as a carry gun. Nope, too heavy. Or what happened that us civilians weren't supposed to hear about.
And I do know one flat foot that could chase a pop can across a range with a 2" revolver. Mind you, he did walk from the Russian Front to surrender to the Americans during WW II. Served in FIVE armies so he did.
Can cops shoot? Mostly no. But neither can most military personnel. Does that mean we should respect them? Don't be daft.

[Bruegger]

We qualify quarterly and run through the 60-round course of fire at least three times. All of our shooting is from the holster.

Then anyone who is interested in practicing some more can do so while we're at the range - things that aren't in the quals. We also get another three boxes (150 rounds) for proficiency training during the quarter to shoot on our own time.

Myself, I try to shoot a box a week or at least every two weeks. That's about all I can squeeze in between work and family life.

[jdkelly]

I shoot quite often at an indoor range that is used by Government Agencies, local PDs, Armored Truck companies and Guard companies for training and firearm qualification. I’ve noticed several things that seem to hold true for all these groups.

The first is that the quality of the shooter is directly related to the need for that ability.

The seriousness (quality) of the instructor is directly related to the abilities of his shooters.

What the groups “train for” determines their perceived abilities.

There are good shooters in all of these groups, but very few of these groups have all or mostly good shooters.

The best groups of shooters are in the Government Agencies. I don’t believe I’m supposed to know what the “best” group does. So I won’t say, but were they shooting in public, they would be shooting in high-density areas where a miss could be VERY problematic. These people shoot very well! I saw one instructor, drawing, shooting into a 3x5 card at 25 yards, and holstering. He repeated the process, over and over like a machine. Not all shots hit the card, but all that didn't were close, I was very impressed.

Below the Government Agencies are the local PDs. The problem with the local PDs is one of perception. For the most part, they practice and qualify in close, where in real life they live or die. As a shooter, respect on the range is earned with accuracy at distance. Police are not shooting for respect they are shooting to survive. I would bet that a good range shooter would die quicker in a gunfight, then the average shooting LEO. After all, that’s what they are really training for. I have noticed the LEOs ability seems to inversely proportional to their proximity to the city. Military service seems to be a positive indicator of shooting ability in police, even if they hadn’t shot handguns in the service. I shoot club combat shoots with some people I know to be local police, and some of them are good shooters.

The Armor Truck companies and the Guard companies, I’ve seen, don’t seem to need to be shooters at all. So I won’t go further here. I guess the gun being there is more important then ability. I’m sure, although I haven’t seen any, some of these people must be very good. But I don't think company training had anything to do with it.


Respectfully


jkelly

[P95Carry]

I would bet that a good range shooter would die quicker in a gunfight, then the average shooting LEO Jkelly ...... I would actually doubt that. Why?

Well, if you read thru much of the content on THR you will find that on balance, us so called ''range shooters'' are in fact pretty dedicated. We may shoot some ''precision'' and shoot over longer distances but, I think you will find that there is almost always an undercurrent of ''close up and personal'' type of practice.

I practice less than I used to but would still always expend at least as much ammo as any average LEO on a range session .... almost certainly way more. Plus ...... much of that practice is concerned with draw fluidity (always trying to improve that) ...... and then fast and accurate placement of shots, at various closer distances.

I'd hazard a guess that many range shooters are in fact potentially way more familiar with their carry piece than some of the less enthusiastic LEO's.:)

[355sigfan]

Based on being a firearms instructor as a LEO, I would say the average cop is better at weapon manipulations and continuity of fire operations than the average person who shoots recreationally. That means they have better weapons presentations, can clear malfunctions and can stay in the game. Now when it comes to actual marksman ship the recreation shooter has the edge, as he or she loves to shoot and does so at every opportunity. They don’t practice the areas they are weak in dealing with weapon manipulations largely because it’s not fun and they have never been formally trained on how to do so. That’s my take.
PAT

[P95Carry]

PAT - as mentioned above in response to Jkelly's post .. and I'd take issue with you also ..... I think we need to discriminate between the ''recreational shooter'' and the CCW.

Agreed, whilst the average recreational shooter could well be very accurate, it is possible they have not trained or practiced much beyond that.

IMO, the dedicated CCW will in fact try to cover just as much ground as the good LEO ... simply because he/she will usually wish to be as competant as possible.

This would include stoppage clearances, attention to presentations .... in fact any and every ''weak'' spot they might find in themselves.

Not trying to be ''clever dick'' ... no way . I respect your opinion and anyone elses ... so no ''P-ing match''!!:p

Just feeling that many very competant and diligent CCW's here might share my view.:)

[355sigfan]

IMO, the dedicated CCW will in fact try to cover just as much ground as the good LEO ... simply because he/she will usually wish to be as competant as possible.
END

Well it sounds as if your compentant which is good. I was basing my opinion of ccw holders on those I met when I was one myself before being a cop. Most seemed to be into guns and shooting but they did not seek out training. Rather they enjoyed spending money on new toys. I was the same way to a degree so I can't throw stones. Stay safe.
PAT

[Bainx]

..how can they, they are too busy generating revenue!;)

[Jim K]

After a police department (which shall be nameless) was issued 9mm Glocks (17 round), one of the patrol cops heard a shot on the street. Drawing his new pistol, he went to investigate. There was an obviously disturbed man standing in the middle of the street holding an old revolver and firing into the air. The cop tried to get him to put the gun down, but the guy started waving it in the cop's direction, so, at a distance of maybe 10 feet, the cop fired. And fired. And fired. His 17th bullet nicked the guy and he went down, crying and weeping. They carted him away for quick patch job and an evaluation. End of incident.

The next day, the police chief got on the local radio station and declared that "if it had not been for the high capacity of our new pistols, this could have had a tragic ending."

No further comment.

Jim

[P95Carry]

That Jim is priceless ........ incredible (and sad) but priceless!:D

[jdkelly]

P95Carry,

My reasons for believing that an average LEO has a higher survivability likely hood in a gunfight is simply they train for the likely hood of one day having a shoot out at a few yards.
I shoot IPSC, I shoot IDPA, I shoot Club Combat shoots, I shoot Steel Plates, I shoot Bowling Pins, I shoot Bullseye, I shoot on average 3-5 times a week. But that does not prepare me for a close quarter gunfight like a LEO had been.

I haven’t trained in the proper use of cover, nor have I learned the dynamics involved in a gunfight. I may (or may not) have the offensive shooting skill needed to be successful in a gunfight, but I don’t have the survival skills needed to safely set myself up to use them. And, like in most combat type situations (I think) that means death is much more likely. You need to survive to succeed, and I have no training in that.

Perhaps you do, and that’s good, because that means fewer bad guys. But most good range shooters I know don’t. So I think I’d have to side with 355SigFan.

Respectfully,

jdkelly

[P95Carry]

jdkelly .. thx for reply ....... well, I guess you have a point but .. i tend to wonder just how much (and how many) cops are actually profient in the ''close quarter gunfight '' .... and no disrespect meant to the cops either.

I guess my thinking is based on the aquired fluency, reaction times, ability to act ''instinctively (very important IMO) ..... that we CCW's all I think try and practice for.

In the end .. well ........ who knows!! maybe I'd like to think anyways, that those of us who pride ourselves on attention to detail and familiarity would, pretty much .... be at the very least ''useful''.

Have a good one and shoot well and safely.:)

[355sigfan]

Jim Keenan


Not all cops are created equal. Also I can find tons of incidents of civilians missing a lot too. Here in Alaska the two largest agencies do very well. APD is averaging 90% hit rate in acutal shootings. The Alaska State Troopers were at 90% until some recent shootings brought that down to about 75%. What made this cop in you incident miss so much was not marksmanship but rather inability to handle stress. He was probably looking over the sights and yanking the trigger. This is a common reaction for those with minimal training.
PAT

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Hey Chuck, I was a handgun shooter long before my
day's as a LEO.:) With 20/20 eyesight,* I still could hit
a nat's rear end in a quilt at 100 yard's.:uhoh: :) Only
problem is, I don't have 20/20 hindsight; much less
eyesight!:D (Laughing Loudly)

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Hal]

I like to think I care about all LEO's who are out there..whether they are good shots or not....but I guess this is just your frustration of not being able to carry..... Well, I like to think I care whether or not the sun will go nova today. Motivating "Officer Friendly" to become a better shot falls into the same catagory of things beyond my control.

[TaxPhd]

I have played IPSC off and on (more off, due to school, work, etc.) since 1984. I have shot in matches with: regular military, Navy SEAL's, Army Rangers, FBI, GBI, SWAT, and regular police officers. If they didn't have a background playing the games (either IPSC or IDPA), they got spanked. An average C class IPSC shooter could beat most of them, and a B class shooter would beat all of them. However, the ones that did play the games were usually very good.

Not bashing cops. Simply my experience over nearly 20 years.

And this is in a game environment. The result may or may not carry over to a real world shoot-out.

[355sigfan]

I love shooting sports like ISPC and IDPA there fun. However in real life the best tacticians will lose because their the ones taking their time and slicing the pie on corners not rushing ahead like a lemming to a cliff. So these games do test shooting skill they do not test tactics.
PAT

[surfinUSA]

Most cops aren't gun guys. Most of the new guys don't know that you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight. But they appear to be having a good time burning up all that ammo.

However, most that I know that have been in gunfights (non swat members), have survived, mainly because it was a simple draw and fire process. Most importantly though they were able to maintain a relatively cool head, deal with the problem at hand and take care of business.

Many other officers I know including myself probably get better scores at the range, but that may not mean as much as we like to believe when it comes to real life. I hope I can remain that cool if I have to, hopefully I'll never have to.

[Indigo22]

As you may have guessed I love my 22LRs. Heres some fun I've had. MY friend and I would regularly shoot at an outdoor range using golf balls as targets. We would throw them out 15 to 20 feet into the sand then shoot them out to around 75 to 100 feet. We used our 4 inch S&W kit guns to do this mind you. One day while our golf balls were out at around 40 feet or so acouple of guys took the bench next to us and were trying to figure out what we were up to. With curiosity finally peeking one of the guys asked what we were we shooting at. right about that time my buddy let loose and hit his ball out of a divot in the sand causing it to jump. Golf balls was our reply. We asked him if he wanted to try shooting at one. NO! he replied giving us a dirty look. We found out they were county cops later from one of the other regulars there. We had some good laughs watching them struggle to hit paper. The snot nosed teens that we were we added a couple small .22 holes into the sparcely populated black on their targets. That pissed them off too.
We knew where our guns shot because we burned up alot of rounds shooting at various distances. Try 100 yards at a milk jug with a 4 inch .22LR. We would hit it about 1 out of 6 times after adjusting for wind. Shoot, wait, watch the sand splash on the backstop, adjust and shoot again.