[firestar]

These forums are great for advice on what to buy and what not to buy, what are some handguns that are generally considered lemoms? Don't include a gun just because you are the only one that had a problem with it, try to make this a useful consumer list on what to avoid spending your hard earned money on. This doesn't have to totally accurate, I am just looking for the general concenses.

I'll start it off with a few easy ones that I have some idea that people think are lemons and I'll add to it so all the guns are in one spot for people to find easier.
In no particular order:
1. S&W Sigma
2. All Jennings products
3. All Bryco products
4. Taurus PT145 (I think that is the model that is considered bad)
5. AMT Hardballer (all AMT guns)
6. Vector
7. Davis
8. Grendal
9. All Lorcin products
10. Taurus PT-22
11. Kel-Tec P-40
12. All RG revolvers
13. All Talon products
14. All Intratec products esp., Tec-9, AB-10 (same gun)
15. Egyptian Helwan 9mm
16. Para-Ordanance P13 P14
17. Kimber II Series 1911s (poly frame guns only)
18. Rossi Revolvers
19. All Standard Arms products
20. Llama
21. Accu-Tec BL-9

[alamo]

Talon - no longer in business, made a P-11 knock-off.

[seeker_two]

All Davis/Talon products.

Fortunately, there are more GOOD gun makers than bad nowadays. (Helps make up for Glock production...:D )








j/k

[Marko Kloos]

Anything that says "AMT" on the slide is a 50/50 crap shoot regarding proper function, in my experience.

[VHinch]

I think it's also important to remember that you can get a lemon from any manufacturer. Mass production is not perfect, and mistakes do get made. Often times people will classify a particular gun as a lemon without having any experience with it themselves just because it gets a bad reputation from a few people on boards such as this one. While I will certainly agree that no one should ever buy a Jennings, Davis or Bryco, these guns are not so much lemons as they are guns produced for the sole purpose of making the cheapest possible weapon to sell to uninformed consumers. The problems associated with Sigmas were generally limited to the first run of production, and were subsequently corrected by S&W. There are many here including me that have had very good experiences with Sigmas. The Taurus PT-145 was a similar case. There were problems with the first runs until Taurus improved the frame to handle the additional stress produced by the .40 and .45 rounds. As far as AMT goes, I believe they are generally a crapshoot, but there are as many good as bad ones out there. The point of this rant is, anyone propagating rumors about guns they have no firsthand experience with is not helping anyone make an informed decision, but rather making the process more difficult.

Vance

[MJRW]

Double up on the Sigma. Specifically the SW380.

S&W Model 19Wondering if anyone will respond faster than Mike Irwin

[Jason Demond]

The two Sigmas I own are definitely NOT lemons! :fire: Both guns are coming up on 7000 rounds without a problem.

[Wildalaska]

Vectors

[firestar]

My intent is not to any particular gun but to provide a reasonable list of guns that should be avoided unless you know what you are doing or are prepared to take the risk in buying something with questionable a reputation. Many of us have the time and the money to try out several guns and tell what preforms well but some newbies or people that only have enough money for one gun should have a place to go to where they get a heads up on what to avoid.

Remember, there are new members joining everyday and not all of them are "experts" on guns or keep informed on what is generally considered good and bad in the market. It is no big surprise when I hear that someone just bought a Sigma for $500 because the dealer said they were good guns. They may be good guns but there are some guns that ARE considered lemons and why take a chance when there ARE so many really great guns out there?

[Sox]

AMT DAO .380 was a total P.O.S that thing split 3 out of 4 magazines, didn't get through a whole magazine without malfunctioning.

FTL .22 auto nine was a great concept but too unreliable.

[dude]

what I've delt with over the years:

Star
AMT
Iver Johnson
Carbon 15

[firestar]

"what I've delt with over the years:

Star
AMT
Iver Johnson
Carbon 15"

Not Star! Say it ain't so.:(

What models?

[hksw]

The only guns that I've ever own that where true crap were AMT/IAI 1911s (both long slides, 10 mm and .45 ACP).

[JCM298]

Grendel: I never got through a magazina w/o a jam,
John

[sm]

RG in .38 spl. oh it spit lead...sometimes it would even do it via the bbl;)

[firestar]

I want this to be a list that you could give to a compleat newbie and send them to a gunstore with it and tell them that as long as you stay away from the guns on the list, you should have no problems finding a decent gun.

Trying to stick with newer guns as a lot of problems with C&R or mil-surplus guns have nothing to do with quality but more to do what condition they are in.

[bdhawk]

AMT .45 backup (50 # trigger pull)
davis .380 held a 18" group(?) at ten yards and about a foot to the left and ten inches low.
clerke (revolver timig was so bad that it spit lead back at ya)
standard arms (another kel-tec P11 copy) the recoil springwent flying downrange!!! cannot find it or the plastic plug.

[wingman]

Bounty Hunter(EAA) 22/22mag.
The only gun I ever owner that
I considered junk.

[Handy]

Interarms US made Walther copies (PPK, TPH, etc.)

[alamo]

Scratch #11 of your list. Too many satisfied P-32s owners to be one there. The P-40 pushed the envelope too far on size/weight for that powerful of a round so KT discontinued it 2 years ago. There was a feed ramp problem on some of the early ones that was corrected later by KT. The main reason they were discontinued was that too many got returned that didn't have any problems with them, the users were limpwristing and/or not properly lubricating them. The P-40 has to be held very firmly to function properly. Used ones and the few new ones left out there get snapped out pretty quickly as they are a fine pistol for those who want something that size/weight in .40 and know how to use them.

[dude]

not sure of which model Star it was............ but a friend of mine back in Hawaii had one in 9mm that would FTF every 100 rounds or so when we went to the range

[arinvolvo]

Intratec Cat9...plastic-not-so-fantastic.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/upload/976268717-1.jpg

[mellow]

LOL, I've never seen that one before. Thanks arinvolvo, I needed a good laugh.

[arinvolvo]

No prob...Ive got more, Im sure.....such as the Accutek 9mm...and the rest of the accu tek line for that matter.

http://pdmall.com/1/auction/3/ACCUTECH9MM.jpg

[foghornl]

Have an RG snubby 38 that shoots ok, but I don't fire it much. and only with lightly loaded 130 Gr or so FMJ ammo. Did seem to have quite a bit of lead buildup around the barrel when I got it.

Absolutely worst POS revo I ever saw was the "Clerke" series. Were available in .22LR and one of the .32 cals, but I don't remember which .32. Shooting buddy had one of the .32's, sent more lead sideways then downrange.

[IrvJr]

I would NOT put the Kimber Series II 1911's in the Lemon Category. I have a Kimber Pro Eclipse II that's great.

I was initially a little leary about the Schwartz type of firing pin safety, but after having shot over 1000 rounds through it, I am very happy with the gun. It's been very reliable and accurate. I prefer it to the Colt XS commander (XS and not XSE) that I used to own.

[Berg01]

I would NOT put the Kimber Series II 1911's in the Lemon Category. I have a Kimber Pro Eclipse II that's great.
Kimber Series II 1911's do not belong in the Lemon Category!

At the range I go to, I have seen examples of bad shooting habits with nice Kimber pistols. Limp-wristed shooting, crappy reloads in filthy, unmaintained guns, just to name a few. It is bad enough that I feel qualified to offer these statements;

"Before you go blaming the gun, take a good look at how it is being handled!"

"In competent hands, a well-maintained Kimber Series 11 in good condition, using quality ammo, is a fine piece!"

Now, obviously, Kimber's mass-production methods will produce a few defective units. But a good pistolsmith can correct these defects.

[Minute_Of_Torso]

I must be one of the very few who didn't have a bit of problem with a Sigma SW9VE. The only reason I got rid of it was because an acquaintance wanted to trade it with me for a Glock 23.

[longeyes]

Ditto the supportive remarks on the Kimber II line series. No way you can tag that gun as a "lemon."

[CWL]

Disagree with your list. Sometimes 'cheapo' pistols are all one can afford to protect self & home. A person deserves the right to own a firearm, whatever he/she can afford.

This gets close to snobbery at a certain level.

I have a Paraordnance P13 that is a beaut, even spent money to have Tripp hardchrome it. I think the greatest problem with these is the magazine springs which need regular replacement.

The worst pistol I have ever owned is a NIB Series II Kimber CDP. Kimber quality & QC has dropped considerably.

As for Iver Johnson, I believe that they are the only pistol make to have been used to assassinate TWO US presidents.

[Boats]

As a general rule, any Spanish made auto produced in the last 35 years should be on a citrus list. As much as I do not care for Kimbers personally, they are not general lemons like the products of some companies from the aforementioned country that have to rename themselves every so often just to stay in the American firearms market.

[valnar]

This may indeed be part of the "snobbery" attitude, but I firmly believe Charles Daly 1911 clones are the bottom of the totem pole.

my 2 cents.

Robert

[Boats]

Has anyone mentioned Auto-Ordnance yet?:barf:

[Jokerman]

Maybe this should be divided into two lists.
1. Lemons- those guns which are never a good idea
and
2. Problem guns- like the Sigma or Kimber II, to which qualifying statements might be made, such as "only the first batch of 'em" or "only with crappy reloads."

There should even be a third category: guns that are not necessarily lemons but no one who knows guns really gets them for some reason or other, (e.g. too small or lightweight for that caliber, not cost effective, ugly as hell, uses second-rate parts, etc).

[sm]

firestar:
My thinking is coming from the perspective of a new shooter with budget.

Granted they should have training and have been advised as to platform , gun fit , caliber...etc.

Either they have an offer of a gun in the family, ad in the paper, pushy sales person in the pawn shop or gunstore. No, they didn't bring along a more experience shooter. Money is burning a hole, or can't wait.

Allow me to pick on the RG or Rohm. Looks nice, pretty, price ok , VS say a model 10 with wear. Or the new wonder pistol ata price point the dealer has bought a bunch of , and needs to unload--fast.

IMO, that old worn model 10 is a better gun, can be worked on , trigger smoothed, parts, grips....etc. Not to mention if they shoot the darn thing to practice, it will digest a variety of loads, hold up to shooting.

I ain't new, it ain't cool, and it ain't gonna be outdated in 6 months when the Co. goes belly up.

Yeah a RG if it works may sit in a desk for 20 years, I know of one, it was only $35 ....He shoulda bought the $70 k frame with the bluing worn and the cracked grips...IMO .

[sm]

Series II, I know of quite a few that have never missed a lick. I have put thousands of rds through 'em, especially one particular Pro Carry.

Guns are...well... weird. I've seen the sear break on a Kreigoff, the custom $5k 1911 custom gun break a disconnector.

I personally don't have , or will have any 1911 with a safety system, internal or external. But that's my perference, just like I drink strong black coffee...

Lemons are those designs and platforms that have shown through history they don't work, out of business, can't get worked on and/or parts.

Problems, are those whichhave a history, which may include being corrected by mfg. Or History shows that it is not the platform for some uses or shooters.

Opinionated me , doesn't like small semi -auto's ( DAO , DA/SA) guns for ladies, or new shooters. Darn thngs can't have triggers tweaked (reliably) , hard to rack ( heavy springs) sharp and or bite. IME a model 10 or similar is easier to shoot and hit, as is a Pro carry , Tip up Beretta in .380, or BHP. I have seen this with arthritis, carpal tunnel, just plain age. J frames are great...recoil keeps some from practice, bigger gun K frame helps.

Dunno, James Bond might have been cool, but lady/gentlemen/newbie ...you ain't James Bond...cool can, and will, get you dead.

[Snowdog]

what are some handguns that are generally considered lemons?

My definition of "lemon" apparently differ from yours. I believe a lemon is a particular specimen of make and model that, otherwise having a solid reputation in general, is an unfortunate exception to the rule.

Example: You buy a Glock 19 and experience accuracy reminiscent of a Davis P380, despite having tried several brands of ammunition.

Though some of the firearm makes listed are of solid reputation, there are many that are complete junk in which this list associates them.

My personal experience with a lemon includes my .40S&W Witness Compact. An ergonomic and attractive pistol with Wonderfinish, it absolutely will not fire the last three rounds in any magazine I've tried. It's been back to the factory on three occasions and nothing has been done to remedy this problem.

[EJ]

FWIW--
Had NO problems with
AMT 380 Backup-- Four different units--
AMT Automag II -- 22WMR
AMT Automag V -- 50 AE


Just my experience--

I think the main prob with AMT was in the1911 guns--

[blades67]

I've had two Auto-Ordnance 1911A1's, one I bought and the second the factory sent to replace the first. The problem was that the second gun had the same problem the first had.:barf: Never again.

[Hkmp5sd]

Another vote on the Grendel P-10. Total garbage.

Have to disagree on the S&W Sigma. I have a .40 S&W and .380 ACP and both function perfectly.

[VHinch]

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that a "complete newbie" as you put it has no business with a semi-auto. By nature they take more practice to be proficient with, and more training to be safe with. Furthermore, anyone who isn't going to put forth the time and effort required to learn to properly use their weapon has no business with any firearm.

As for the Kimber Series II's, the only "problem" I've ever seen with them was that the firing pin safety mechanism gives them somewhat of a rougher trigger than you find on other 1911's. That certainly does not make a gun a lemon.

I would certainly hope that everyone here would at least restrict negative comments to guns that they have actual hands on experience with.

Vance

[arinvolvo]

Did anyone mention the pheonix arms stuff? Or the LLAma junk?

[firestar]

Llama! How could we forget? I know of at least one Llama that is a total POS.

By Kimber II, I meant the poly framed models only, the ones that were recalled. Someone clarify what the Kimber poly framed guns are called.

This is not my list, it is from what I have gathered at sites like this, it is not perfect but it will be a usefel list on what to avoid if your relatively new to guns. This is not really a "lemon" list so much as a if you don't wanna get taken, don't buy these guns list. I don't agree with all the guns on the list, my dad has a AMT Backup in .45ACP that has NEVER had a jam even with his total lack of respect for keeping it clean. He carries it in his pocket with keys and change and it has only been cleaned or lubed once in many years and that was when my brother did it for him. I don't consider it a lemon even though it has a heavy DA trigger but most people do, so it makes the list. Better to include a few more guns than not enough.

[firestar]

As a general rule, any Spanish made auto produced in the last 35 years should be on a citrus list. As much as I do not care for Kimbers personally, they are not general lemons like the products of some companies from the aforementioned country that have to rename themselves every so often just to stay in the American firearms market.

Are you compleatly insane? I have heard some strange things on this site but WOW! What exactly is the problem with Spanish guns? Star and Astra make some guns that will compare to any on the market. I will put up my M-43 Firestar against any gun cheaper than a SIG and I doubt there is a better made pistol for the money.

[michiganfan]

My Charles Daly 1911 has been nothing but sweet since I changed to a stronger recoil spring. Well worth the money I paid for it.

[Boats]

Are you compleatly insane? I have heard some strange things on this site but WOW! What exactly is the problem with Spanish guns? Star and Astra make some guns that will compare to any on the market. I will put up my M-43 Firestar against any gun cheaper than a SIG and I doubt there is a better made pistol for the money.


Hooked me a big one!!!:evil:

I just did exactly what you've been doing in this thread. You set out to paint a lot of functioning firearms with a broad brush of tar, so I exploited your obvious respect for firestars to turn the table, primarily for the Kimber fans. It worked.

See ya.

[Robby from Long Island]

Definitely have to disagree with you on Para Ordnance. I have a P14.45 LTD that functions flawlessly.

I know several others who also swear by their Paras. Don't know many people who don't like them except those who don't have one.

[Gerald McDonald]

Add Glock to the list, prone to limp wrist, also HK USPs dont feel good, must mean their lemons, Ruger SuperBlackHawk, shot an armadillo with one years ago, shot thru the middle and he just ran off sure sign of a lemon. Had a Colt Python years ago that would bind the cylinder after a couple of hundred 357's with out cleaning, thats gotta mean its a lemon in the first degree. Of course I own a couple of little Rossi 38's, got about 1200 rounds thru them with no problems.

[lee n. field]

I've been lucky so far. Of whats gone through my hands only the Jennings .22 and the FIE .38 derringer (derange-er) were totally unreliable crap. They could not be made to be reliable and broke in normal use.

Taurus PT-22 is a step up in quality. It's not reliable, but it's not going to physically break in normal use.

[Jim K]

Golly, nobody mentioned my two favorites:

The Rogak (ugh!) and the Colt All-American (all junk) 2000.

Jim

[Stevie-Ray]

I'll agree with the AMT crap. But not so the Taurus PT-22. Mine has been ultra-reliable and quality-wise, it's way above my KelTec P-32.

[firestar]

Like I said before, this is not my list of guns to avoid, it is from what others have posted and from I have gleaned from reading many posts on the net. I never said it was going to be totally accurate, it is just a guide on what guns to avoid if you don't want to risk getting a lemon.

The Kimber guns I am talking about are the POLY framed versions ONLY, I have nothing against Kimber but those guns DO have a ton of problems with them. I don't really care if you have one that worked or if you have a Sigma that was 100% reliable and accurate, it is about letting people know what guns you are more likely to have problems with. I don't think anyone will argue that you are more likely to have problems with a S&W Sigma than you are to have problems with a Glock or a Ruger.

Don't get hung up on the fact that a pistol that you like is on the list, it just means that some people have the opinion that, that gun particular gun is a dog. It is not the end all and be all of lists. It is just a road map to newbies on a few pot holes to avoid. If they want to buy a gun that is on the list, that is fine with me but I wish I had a list of guns to avoid years ago. I hope this helps someone avoid wasting their money on a gun that is not up to standards.

I admit that I don't have any first hand experience with many of the guns on the list, I am taking your words for it on many guns.

[longbeard]

Israel Arms Int. (IAI) .45ACP, total P.O.S.

[Redhawk1]

High-Point pistols are pure JUNK.

[Mannlicher]

Firestar states:"My intent is not to any particular gun but to provide a reasonable list of guns that should be avoided unless you know what you are doing or are prepared to take the risk in buying something with questionable a reputation"

I have owned several of the guns on your list. I do not agree with your conclusions.

One of the WORST handguns I ever owned was a HK .40 USP Compact. They generally have a pretty good rep. Mine was awful. My Sigma, on the other hand, is a jewel.

[NapAttack]

I don't think it is possible to put together a list like this. Especially when you try to compile such a list from reading Internet posts. You know neither the bona fides nor the integrity of the person making the post.

Of the firearms you list, I have owned AMT, Rossi and Llama and found them to be reliable and reasonably accurate. Several of my friends have owned others from your list and found them to be accurate and reliable.

I, for one, would never recommend a Glock to anyone. But then again, I would recommend the Charles Daly line but numerous people here would disagree. Redhawk1 is a good example (not slamming you personally, just an example). He states unequivocally that Hi-Point firearms are junk. But yet there are a number of people who post here that have indicated the Hi-Points are reliable and reasonably accurate for what they cost.

[standingbear]

was at a gunshop and lookibng at a intratec,the 22 that used 10/22 mags..anyhow,the gunshop owner raved about how fun it was and even went as far as loading it up and taking me outback to his range to test it.i told him"you can go ahead and show me how it works". he tried and tried to get it to fire in a semi mode and not single shot,clear,load and fire mode.i told him i was just curious anyways.he said musta been the ammo and ill knock 50 off the price.ill pass i said and his face turned a red of embarrassment(or anger).i left,he was still trying to clear the jam.

[Edward429451]

FTL .22 auto nine was a great concept but too unreliable.

I'll second this one. Mine wont get a full mag out of it before it blows the extractor off. Been fixed lots of times, 1st mag kills it again, everytime.

[Brad Johnson]

I agree on some and disagree. Here goes

1. S&W Sigma
-agree

2. All Jennings products
-agree

3. All Bryco products
-disagree. I have a Bryco 380 that's clunky and cobby, but it's never missed a lick.

4. Taurus PT145 (I think that is the model that is considered bad)
-disagree. The problem with the early guns was corrected (and the early frames will be replaced at no cost). The later models are worth considering.

5. AMT Hardballer (all AMT guns)
-agree

6. Vector
-disagree. I've shot several different Vektor models, and they all seemed to function fine.

7. Davis
-agree

8. Grendal
-agree

9. All Lorcin products
-agree

10. Taurus PT-22
-disagree. Not a bad choice for a low-cost garden pistol

11. Kel-Tec P-40
-disagree. Unrefined, but not junk.

12. All RG revolvers
-agree

13. All Talon products
-no opinion

14. All Intratec products esp., Tec-9, AB-10 (same gun)
-disagree. Cheap, clunky, and magnets for bad press, but not bad for a fun plinker.

15. Egyptian Helwan 9mm
-no opinion

16. Para-Ordanance P13 P14
-disagree. Maintenance intensive, but very nice to shoot.

17. Kimber II Series 1911s (poly frame guns only)
-disagree. Some models had problems, but they were resolved and Kimber will make it right if you own an earlier model.

18. Rossi Revolvers
-agree

19. All Standard Arms products
-no opinion

20. Llama
-disagree. Some Llama products aren't bad when you consider the price.

21. Accu-Tec BL-9
-agree

[SunBear]

BIG LEMON: Detonics Pocket Nine circa mid-80s--slamfired when I chambered a round with the safety off . Good training prevailed and the round went into carpeted concrete floor.

[eotp]

Para-Ordanance P13 P14

Add my name to those who disagree with you regarding these (especially the P14)

[arinvolvo]

Brad, it is my understanding that Jennings and Bryco are the same company.

And it is also my understanding that the Vector pistol from south africa was recalled, and then the company went out of business.

[cratz2]

Seems to me the creator of this list has done a lot more reading than shooting. ;)

Maybe it's just a question of semantics, but perhaps if the thread had to do with: 'guns you might not want as your first' or something like that but I've owned several guns listed and have shot several guns listed with relatively few issues. Hi Points are generally quite reliable with ball ammo, I have a P14/45 that's never failed, and a unreliable Rossi revolver? News to me!

Just my opinion... YMMV as they say.

[sw442642]

Pt-22. Mine was a dog. Jammed on every mag. Bought a new mag - still jammed. Wasn't worth the trouble of sending it to Taurus, so I sold it.

[firestar]

Seems to me the creator of this list has done a lot more reading than shooting.

Maybe you should do a little more reading cratz2.;) Try reading the entire thread and not just the first and last post. Read what I wrote. It is not just my list, it is the collective list of many many experienced shooters.

When one guy has a problem with a gun that does not make that model a lemon, just that particular gun is a lemon. When MANY people complain about the same gun over several years, that gun starts to get a bad rep. All I am doing is trying to group the guns with bad reps. I don't make any claims that those reps are deserved but I would be extra carefull about buying a gun with a bad rep if it was my hard earned money. Some guns with bad reps can be good guns when you get one that doesn't suffer from the problems that it is supposed to have.

Most guns are going to be pretty good, even the ones that are considered lemons. Most of the guns in the lemon catagory are probably good guns but they may have a higher chance of being messed up than a gun that is on a "greatest hits" type of list.

How can a gun model be a lemon if you have one that works? Well, I'm sure that there are a lot Jenning's pistols out there that work, does that mean that Jenning's doesn't deserve the bad rep because YOU have a good one? NO! Think about it! It is not about YOUR gun, it is about the intangable point of view of many people that have had experience with those guns.

[cratz2]

Maybe you should do a little more reading cratz2. Try reading the entire thread and not just the first and last post. Read what I wrote. It is not just my list, it is the collective list of many many experienced shooters.But when you post that certain guns are lemons, whether your own ideas or regurgitating those of others, it is your post.

I can name several people with KelTec P40s that work just fine, how many can you name, by name, that have P40s that will not feed reliably? I have a Para P14/45 Ltd that has never jammed using ball ammo and the supposedly difficult to feed 200 Gr LSWC handloads and know several others (including LEOs that carry them) that have minimal issues. How many folks do you personally know that have a full size Para 1911 that doesn't run right with known good ammo?

And I assure you I read the entire thread... but you suggesting that makes one think that you usually don't. ;)

It is not about YOUR gun, it is about the intangable point of view of many people that have had experience with those guns.This is almost laughable. :rolleyes: If I had $1 for every time someone that had never shot a Hi Point said they 'were junk' or that you 'can't get through a mag without a jam' I could pretty much buy any damn gun I wanted! This is the jist of what I was saying in my previous post. I understand your intention in trying to save some folks some money on junk guns but to have a post rehashing other people's claims, not backed up by your own personal experience is almost libelous.

Guns like the PT145, Sigmas, Llamas and Kimber poly guns have spotty reputation at worst. Though 'many people' have had bad experiences with them, many more, I would imagine, have had minimal issues. Sort of like the guy that will swear up and down to me that my Chevy truck (with 213,000 miles on it) isn't as good as a Ford as his 2 month old F250 is in the shop getting the differential replaced. Neither of these may be indicative of the product, but most folks just don't truly have the experience with them to make such accusations, esp in writing, no less! As I said, they are more than likely re-stating what they have heard others say who, as likely as not, have no actual experience with them anyway! :barf:

Anyway... good luck with your list.

[firestar]

As I have said, this is not a scientific thread, it is just a bunch of people's opinions. I don't agree with all the lemons either but there are guns that seem to have a bad rap so I included them.

I only know one person with a Kel-Tec P-40 and his gun did not work so based on my experience, 100% of Kel-Tec P-40 don't work. Does that mean that 100% of Kel-Tec P-40s don't work? No. All it means is, out of the people that I know who have that gun, I have gleaned one small bit of info, it is not about one gun, it is about the group opinion of them. From what I understand, the group opinion on many of these guns is that you are more likely to get a lemon if you buy one of these as opposed to buying a gun that does not have a bad rep.

The idea is, you will be safer if you buy a gun with a known quality reputation than a gun with a known bad rep. I can't say if the reps are true but if a Sigma is considered by most people to be a hit or miss gun and a Glock 17 is considered to be a reliable gun by most, which is a safer bet?

You forget that not everyone is a "gun nut" a lot of peole are not that interested or gun savy as some of the folks here. Some are just getting into guns and they are looking for a cunsumer reports sort of list to help them avoid making a mistake. I am not out to flame a gun, I am out to give people some info that I never had. I had to learn the hard way. People that have more experience don't need lists like this because they have the info they need. Not everyone wants to devote a lifetime to trial and error to find out what some good guns are.

[Rob999]

HKs are not lemons!

I'd like to see anyone call someone elses gun a lemon when you're looking down the opposite end of "the LEMON" :D

[makdaddy03]

Lemons that come to my mind are :
Llama MiniMax .45acp
EAA Witness .40S&W
FMJ Cobray Derringer type handgun.
Oh Yes What Jeff said Ramline.

[Jeff]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Ram-line .22 pistols with the polymer frames and barrels made with polymer and "lined" with rifled sheet metal.

All mine did was jam. Total POS.

[arinvolvo]

I dont actually think this gun is a lemon, in fact it is a BUL manufactured Charles Daly Double Action....And I hear they are fine pistols...but the color does bring LEMON to mind.:D

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=299112

[makdaddy03]

Had to put on my shades for that one.:cool:

[firestar]

Would a S&W Lemon Squeezer be a lemon?:D

[David4516]

""what I've delt with over the years:

Star
AMT
Iver Johnson
Carbon 15""

Star? Your kidding? I've never had any problems with my "model A" in 9mm Largo, nor has my Dad, who has owned several Star pistols over the years... I wouldn't call it a great gun, but is sure isn't a lemon if you ask me...

[Jim March]

Charter Arms/Charco/Charter2000 revolvers:

The design is actually quite good, both on the smaller 38Spls (Undercover and Off Duty) and larger 44Spl/357 5-shot (Bulldog) types. Like a Ruger SA, there's no sideplates, the action, triggerguard and grip frame "fork up" into the primary cylinder frame. All use transfer bars. (The designer worked on several Blackhawk variants for Ruger, and it shows!)

Quality control on the early Charter Arms variants varied between good and fair, with some lemons. If it has an exposed ejector rod and case-hardened hammer, and it says "Charter Arms", it may be OK (check it out in detail, see also the "revolver checkout procedure", first post in the revolver forum here on THR). But finding a gunsmith that will wrench on it may be trouble; they're rather..."weird" inside.

The design was later bought by Charco. Quality varied between "barely acceptable" and "DEAR GOD" (as in spitting the barrel 10ft downrange during a factory demo!).

The design is now owned by Charter 2000. By all reports, they're rough-looking but with surprisingly few lemons - in other words, precision machine made but zero hand-fitting or cleanup.

The 44Spls are the smallest revos of that caliber made, and will fit in most S&W J-frame leather holsters. Buffallo Bore ammo has a "warm 44Spl" that clearly says: "works OK in any 44Spl gun in good condition EXCEPT Charter Arms/Charco/Charter2000 series". :scrutiny:

That said, the 44 Charter worked just fine for the "Son Of Sam" mass murderer :(.

Short form: I *love* my very early Undercover 38, but it was carefully hand-picked, I don't feed it much 38+P and unless you're willing to seriously research/handpick, AVOID the whole breed.

[Hypnogator]

Kel-Tec P-40 has a distinguished place on the list. Some may work (as stated by other members) but my conversion never did, and I have had it "fixed" at the factory three times. The last time it still wouldn't feed 1/3 of the time, and after only half a box of factory Sellier & Belloit solids, it broke the frame. :cuss:

Kel-Tec has stopped making them. The bottom line is, if they worked reliably, they'd still be making them.

And for the K-T 40 apologists who insist that it's a great gun that won't shoot for the limp-wristed, I would point out that a weapon that isn't reliable under all conditions, when shot by a wounded, exhausted firer, isn't a reliable weapon, period. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Westy]

I'm REALLY curious why Para Ordnance is on the list. I have a P13 SS and a P14, and both have been great shooters. I prefer them over my Springfield Armory 1911 !

:confused:

[Gerald McDonald]

Hypnogator, that leaves out my brother inlaw's Glock 17. Shoots great for me, he cant get 3 rounds out in a row.
Gerald

[firestar]

The Para P-13 and P14 are there because I have heard lots of people claim they had lemons. I don't have any experience with them but a guy at my leauge has one (not sure which model but it is SA double stack) and it is a sweet shooter, he does impressive work with it.

This list does not mean that all the guns on it are junk, it is just a list of guns that seem to have more than their share of problems. My sources are sometimes 2nd hand because anyone can get a bad apple. I can't trust that just because I got a lemon or two that all of the guns of that make are junk but when many other people agree on the same gun then it will make the list. None of the guns on the list are there because of one instance, many people have had to agree that the gun was sub par to make the list.

[CZ-100]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=299112

Hey great if your a Steeler Fan!!!:eek:

[p35]

Just to be contrary, I have a Ram-Line .22 that's reliable and highly accurate. Only problem is that it's so light that it's hard to keep on target. Big for a gun that light. too.

[Meowhead]

I have a Helwan 9mm that was perfect until a gunsmith worked on it. :cuss:

The original owner decided to have it refinished, have new sights and springs installed. I bought the gun the day he got it back from the smith, expecting something as reliable as the worn-out-looking automatic it started out as...well, the gunsmith made it into a beautiful-looking gun that can't go through a magazine. Broken trigger pin and something else I haven't figured out yet.

[Ruger Redhawk]

Top of the list "All Ruger's". Only kidding of course.
Years ago the FIE line of guns.The Titians, Arminius,Texas Ranger.Titian II(semi autos).

Ruger Redhawk

[txgolfer45]

Gerald McDonald,

<Add Glock to the list, prone to limp wrist>

You are kidding right??? You may be prone to limp wristing, but the Glock isn't. Glocks definitely do not belong on the list of "lemons"!!!

Scott

[Westy]

Who buys plastic guns ? :barf:

[Edward429451]

FIE line of guns.The Titians,

I used to have a Titan 25 acp and never really had a problem with it. True enough I didn't shoot it 'a lot', only occasionally b/c of the price of ammo for it. I think its best feature was the exposed hammer. I had that gun for years, carried it alot and liked it, just not the cartridge. Did you have problems with yours? What type of problems?

[Ruger Redhawk]

Edward429451 FIE line of guns . I've never owned one of the FIE's. Years ago I lived in south Florida and worked at a gunshop part time for awhile. Right down the street was FIE.I met the owner a few times. He knew his line wasn't much but he was selling them . Not much after that he sold out to a companyQFI(Quality Firearms Corp) in Opa Locka FL.Not sure if they are still in business now or not. Unversal Firearms (M-1's) were located in the Hialeah area not far from FIE.That's another company that's no more. RG Industries was 20 minutes away.South Florida had it's share of cheaply made firearms.Taurus is now in that area, At least there is some fairly decent guns being made in South Florida. Or should I say being assembled in S.F.

Ruger Redhawk

[firestar]

South FL sounds like how CA. was a few years ago, Jennings, Bryco, etc. were all made there, now the junk is made in S. FL. Kel-Tec, Taurus, etc.:D

[Gerald McDonald]

txgolfer, read hypnogators post. Last thing he types is unless a firearm will fire in any and all conditions, regardless of grip, it is not reliable. Then read my post, I have no problem with the Glock, it shoots great for me, just not my bro inlaw. So if we use hypnogators comments then the glock is not reliable, thats not my deduction its hypnogators.

[chetrogers]

Jennings nine...If you see this gun run away from it.............

[Dr.Rob]

I too wish to add the FIE Titan to the list but only becuase it's the only lemon I ever owned.

Who thought that a manual safety that must be moved 180 degrees on a pocket pistol was a good idea?


This masterwork of Miami engineering also features a zinc alloy frame and front sight that wow.. somehow got bent? the rifling is almost visible, which is more than I can say for the finish. the lower was painted black and is now flaking and the upper is (was?) blued but now spotted. At least the high impact grips are still intact.

The asking price for this thing new was $35-50 in the 80's. Glad I didn't pay a dime for this one.

No matter how bad a gun is from the factory you CAN always make it worse.

[tatters]

I have to disagree with the SW.Sigma .380. Mine worked fine. The only problem was with the take-down pin walking out after a lot of rounds. Great little carry gun IMHO. Also the Phoenix Arms HP-22 I own has been great. It was my very first gun. I had some early problems, but now it's flawless if I use Stingers.

I haven't owned a lot of guns in my life, I started shooting at 35.

I don't have much experience with lemons. I did have a used High Standard Sentinel Deluxe .22 that spit lead.

Funny, I have never owned a gun I payed more than 365.00 for, and most of my guns are well under 300.00.

[firestar]

I didn't put the Phoenix Arms HP-22 on the list and it is not going on the list because I have heard more good than bad about this gun.

There is nothing wrong with owning guns that don't cost thousands of dollars. I find that I like some of the $200-300 as much or more than the more expensive guns. It depends on the gun but it is not rare to find a nice used $200-300 gun that will outshoot and be more reliable than guns costing 2-3 times as much. Unfortunatly, it is also not rare to spend $200-300 on a gun that isn't worth half that.

I love good inexpenve guns but I hate any "cheap" gun. Cheap crappy guns are not worth having around IMHO. Take Jennings for example, no matter what you pay for them, they are not worth it. They are worthless for what they are designed for, i.e., self defense. They are not reliable and that is all that REALLY matters in a self defense weapon.

[NeuTom72]

Just a comment about Grendel pistols. I have owned a Grendel P-12 .380 now for about 8 years. With a risk of jinxing myself, I have to say that my Grendel has been VERY reliable. Granted I've only put around 400 rounds through it, but I feel very comfortable carrying this gun for CCW. I don't recall ever having a failure to feed. The Grendel line was discontinued years ago, but if you compare the Grendel to the Kel-Tec pistols, I think you'll see that both pistols are very similar. Not just in looks, but in function also. If you're in the market for an inexpensive CCW pistol I would highly recommend that you look for a good used model. Ten in the magazine, and one in the chamber.

Yes the Grendel pistols are inexpensive, but they aren't "cheap".

:D