[paddling_man]

I'm considering a .357 or .45LC for a woods gun. No big bruins or anything but some solo sea kayaking / hiking trips where the worst case encounter would be a wild hog or an overly persistent N.A. black bear. In some of these situations a rifle or shotgun is out of the question.

I found a deal on a single action .357 or .45LC in 4-5/8" barrel. I know the .357 is more versatile and economical with .38 loadings but this will never be the primary car/CCW weapon; the little P11 and G30 fits those roles well. The .45LC is a monster cartridge but lower pressure, right?

Can I buy ammo for a .357 that outperforms the .45LC for a woods gun or should I stick with the larger bore?

As an alternative, the "woods loads" of a .357 and a .45LC still greatly outperform this one in .45ACP, right? (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=156)


Thanks in advance!

[Wedge]

Can I buy ammo for a .357 that outperforms the .45LC for a woods gun or should I stick with the larger bore?

Nope. The .45 Colt is going to be the far superior round. Even in a standard pressure offering of 255 gr. around 800 fps I would rather have that. I think bigger gives more versatility.

If you handload and are getting a Ruger you can work up some hotter loads and or heavier loads.

Consult handloading manuals but a 300gr. bullet can be propelled to modest velocities and win the penetration game. Reloading isn't that expensive either, cost me about $200 to get my whole set up, add another $100 for materials and I was making cartridges. If you aren't going to shoot much you can always go with Cor-bon or Buffalo Bore loads.

While I slightly regretted getting the .45 Colt as a first gun, I love having the big bore around now. Since this isn't your primary gun, you might as well go big.

[Mike1951]

I strongly suggest the .45 Colt.

I also suggest a Ruger, but NOT the new Vaquero!

Ruger suggests only std pressure loads in the smaller framed new Vaquero, like you would shoot in a Colt.

Get an old model Vaquero, Blackhawk, or Redhawk.

That will give you the options for mild shooting rounds to rounds that can outperform the .44 Magnum.

Mike

[larry_minn]

I'm considering a .357 or .45LC for a woods gun. No big bruins or anything but some solo sea kayaking / hiking trips where the worst case encounter would be a wild hog or an overly persistent N.A. black bear. In some of these situations a rifle or shotgun is out of the question.

I found a deal on a single action .357 or .45LC in 4-5/8" barrel. I know the .357 is more versatile and economical with .38 loadings but this will never be the primary car/CCW weapon; the little P11 and G30 fits those roles well. The .45LC is a monster cartridge but lower pressure, right?

Can I buy ammo for a .357 that outperforms the .45LC for a woods gun or should I stick with the larger bore?

As an alternative, the "woods loads" of a .357 and a .45LC still greatly outperform this one in .45ACP, right?


If buying ammo I would suggest the .357mag. Much wider variety of ammo/loads available at stores. Ammo is cheaper as rule. 45LC loads are normally soft lead and fairly lite loads. (unless well stocked shop/you load your own/buy hotter loads) From memory (which is less reliable as time goes on) 1400fps for a 140g JSP or FMJ (anywhere from 125-158grain)
As said my 45LC is in sub 800fps with much heavier but soft lead loads. Heck you can find 180 grain loads that IIRC are over 1100fps.
I kinda wish I had bought a cowboy gun in .357. Plus as you said you can priactice with .38 wadcutters.

[paddling_man]

Any opinions on the Uberti 1873 Cattleman? Those are the ones I found the "deal" on. Thanks!

[philbo]

+1 w/larry above. The Uberti can be a fine revolver, but you would be limited to standard pressure loads in 45lc. I think the 357 would offer more versatility in even a similar single action.

[Froggy]

I briefly considered the .45 Colt when I bought a New Vaquero, mostly for the nostalgia factor, but defaulted to my preferred revolver caliber, the .357 magnum, when it came time to buy. Better selection of factory loads available.

[.38 Special]

Yep. The .45 is, IMO, the finest cartridge on earth, but only in the large frame Rugers and similar. If stuck with the single action army and repros the .45 is pretty much a one trick pony, and that trick isn't terribly impressive.

If forced to choose, for a woods gun, between a repro in .357 and one in .45 Colt, I would take the .357 and plan on using 180 grain loads or similar.

[jibjab]

I don't have a .45 LC :( so I'm stuck with a 4" .357 mag. I load it with these when in the back country.
https://www.dakotaammo.net/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22_53&products_id=81&osCsid=e7fe03748d4f30212842886afa03f2f7

[461]

If you aren't going to reload the .357 is a better option between the two, but for wild pigs and black bear as a non reloader I'd personally get a .44mag for versatility. Yes you can buy Buffalo Bore .45Colts but they aren't available everywhere and you can get good .44 loads darn near everywhere.

You might want to look at yourself as well, if you have never shot a powerful big bore handgun you might want to try one first as they aren't for everyone. If the recoil bothers you then the .357 is the better choice as you'll practice more and have a better chance of hitting the target.

Good luck, in truth any gun is better than no gun so you'll be covered either way.

[TexAg]

Blackhawk, used, should not run you much at all. OR go for a Blackhawk convertible which will come with two cylinders, easily switched out without tools within a couple minutes, one in .45 Colt and one for .45acp. You could then shoot soft Colt Cowboy loads, 45acp fmj loads, .45acp self defence loads all the way to 300+ grain 1300+fps .45 Colt Buffalo Bore loads. Then you really have the ultimate in versatility and on gunbroker I see a brand new one for $400. The .45 Colt only one is only $350 new. With the Uberti you can't shoot the high power Buffalo Bore or Cor-bon loads (or real powerful realoads). There are decent standard pressure .45 Colt loads you can get from Remington and Winchester that are 225-250 grains at 800-850 fps. I like to be able to shoot the hot stuff though that can take anything in the lower 48.

[paddling_man]

Thanks for all of the advice! :D

I've shot a .44 mag on a few occasions and actually enjoyed it a lot. I also own a 10mm auto in a fullsize steel gun (Witness) but, for a number of reasons, I don't think I would carry it as a woods gun (weight.) Not too mention that, without reloading, finding ammo without preplanning is difficult. Its recoil with full power DT loads hasn't bothered me thus far.

So, as attractive as they are, a Uberti SAA repro probably isn't what I need even as a "good deal." Make the gun fit the environment, not the environment fitting the gun, right?

So, .44 or .357 in a Ruger or similiar heavy wheel gun.

(I don't know why I have this sudden attraction to specifically buying a older style s/a gun, but I do. :confused: )

[Froggy]

Since you are going down that road.... you should take a look at the Taurus Gaucho. Has the transfer bar system pioneered by Ruger. Arguably, built just as tough. Getting lots of good reviews. And, depending on your local market, can usually be found for less cost than a similar Ruger:

http://www.taurususa.com/products/gunselector-results.cfm?series=GU2

But I'll add a second recommendation for the Ruger Blackhawk Convertible (see TexAg's post, above). Modern adjustable sights, built Ruger tough, and that interchangable cylinder lets you plink with affordable (and easy to shoot) 9mm ammo.

[bakert]

Although my favorite single action is a Ruger BH that will handle the heavier loadings, good loads for the .45 Colt don't necessarily have to be teeth rattlers. A 255 gr Swc bullet trucking along at close to 900 fps will take care of most things except the largest animals. The .357 might not be a bad choice either, especially since there are many more choices of very good factory loads. Also I have no experience with it but have read some good reports on the Uberti Cattleman revolver.

[larry_minn]

Something I was thinking about. Why do you want single action? If you are thinking protection from dangerous animals that implies unexpected/quick situations. Your other guns (IIRC a G30/other semi autos) don't lend muscle memory to a single action. At least consider a double action revolver. (similar just a longer/heavier trigger pull. And follow up shots same way. IF you have time/or distance you can set them up for single action shots.

[GunNut]

Either one will do you good.

If you reload or can afford the ammo the .45lc would be a great choice.

Factory ammo for the .357mag will be cheaper and more readily available though, so that could factor into your decision.

Steve

[Outlaws]

Not too mention that, without reloading, finding ammo without preplanning is difficult.

Then you probably want to completely skip the 45LC. That is one of its major drawbacks IMO.

Keep your eyes open for a 44mag. You can get the ammo almost anywhere you can get 357. Nothing wrong with a 357 though.

[Colt46]

I'd stay away from the CowBoy Action stuff. Too light. A standard loaded 255 grain keith type wadcutter will do anything you ask of it from a woods gun. It may not have as much energy as a .357, but will do the job just as well if not better.
The Blackhawks allow for some truly awesome dangerous game type loads. However, an SAA clone or New Vaquero will handle the standard loads that you will most likely be using and be easier to carry to boot.

[TexAg]

To touch on the "ammo availability" question some; I think its somewhat overstated these days. I can find .45 Colt loads of some degree or another at most gun shops and I can find heavy loads at select stores (Buffalo Bore at Cabela's). And most importantly, I can find any load I want on the internet and its usually cheaper than going to a store and paying thier prices and taxes.
.357 might be a little more available in stores, but if its a place that doesn't stock .45 Colt in Winchester Silvertips or a 250 grain load of some kind then its probably got a pretty limited selection of .357s too.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Due to my Scottish ancestry, good deals, cheap fun are right up my alley.

BUT, could you pull a defensive gun against a bad guy or beast and be happy you bought the cheap one?

.357 is great against bad guys, but beasts are another story. There's no substitute for large bullets and deep penetration. Big bores are better. I second Bakert, .45 Colt with 255s at 800 to 900 fps are standard loads and have amazing penetration (usually 2 feet or so). And that load tammed the West including the critters.

Whatever you get, get good with it.

[Outlaws]

I would bet my life that a 357 would penetrate deeper than a normal factory 45 Colt loading. I would take a 44 over a 45 colt any day.

[TexAg]

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

A 265 grainer doing a mere 675fps got 27" penetration. A 250 doing 950fps got 21". Those are fairly close to some factory loads. Remington lists their 225 going 960fps. and the 250 going 860fps. Other hand loads (which some duplicating Buffalo Bore and Cor-bon) get into the 30" and 40" range.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357magnum.htm

Some standard .357 loads, and depending on the geletin, bare or clothed, they got from 10" to 34", but most seemed to avg. in the teens.

Looks like to me that between a "normal" .357 load and a "normal" .45 Colt load the .45 will go deeper. Obviously if using a low power, light .45 load you could achieve less penetration than 158(+) loads in some conditions, but on avg. the heavy bullet will give more penetration and generally the .45 is loaded heavier.

So, about that bet....

[Outlaws]

Tex,

That first link you posted is bogus. It says a .338 Lapua went 32". That should out perform ANY handgun load. Its a 338!

Then there is this....
325 gr. .50AE 1780fps 15" penetration
310 gr. .45 Colt 1250fps 36" penetration

:what: I thought you said the diameter and weight thing on the 357 vs 45colt was a factor? Not so on that test.


If someone shot 20 rounds through some meat and bones and into wet paper, for a ruff guestimate of how it performs, that is fine. But you can't compare one shot to the next because there are too many variables.

(they must not have used FMJ on that Lapua.....) :scrutiny:


Further more, the second link is ALL Jacketed HP's for the 357. You can't compare that to a 45colt because there not that many HP loads for it.

[TexAg]

Well I didn't look at the Lapua load...but I wouldn't doubt Linbaugh either.
I couldn't find any results on the net for .45Colt and .357 in the same media in a straight up comparison.
www.theboxotruth.com has a good article on .45 Colt loads and their penetrative power.
Beartooth bullets also has a relative penetration calculator that is interesting:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm
To find meplats go to their product listing and you will find them listed. With 180 grain bullets it can exceed .45 penetration if the .45 loads are in the mid 200s, but its not off by much. It doesn't take into consideration velocity though. And really diameter and weight and velocity are all factors. As is contruction of bullet and just as you pointed out, all those .357 loads are JHPs and many .45 loads are LFNs or SWCs.
Winchester Silvertips and probably the most commonly available Hp load for .45 (in stores and what not), but you also have Cor-bon, Cor-bon DPX, Buffalo Bore, CCI, Speer, PMC.
But anyways, you said you would bet your life that a .357 would out penetrate a normal .45 load and I just gotta say "depends"!
158-180 JSP or hardcast .357 vs. factory 255 LRN. 45 Colt, probably .357 wins. But change the .357 to a JHP and/or a 125 and probably not.

But anyways, in my opinion the discussion should be between .45 and .44 if bears are involved at all and then it becomes more of a question of "do you handload or not?" Not only do you want big penetration, but a big hole as well.

[Outlaws]

My thing is that if I am going into bear country, I would take a 357 over a Uberti SAA in 45LC (which is what the OP is choosing between) simply because its not a Ruger and you can't shoot "Ruger Only" stuff in Uberti as far as I know..."Ruger Only" loads are basically a .454 Casull Special for all intended purposes....and I wouldn't question that over a 357.

No matter what though, FMJ is a must for outdoors carry.

[Gaucho Gringo]

I will have to second Froggy on tha Taurus Gaucho as I have one in .357. I didn't go out to buy the Gaucho but once I handled one, I had to have it. The fit and finish on the one I have is great and the price I bought it for new was lower than anything comparable. Give the Gaucho a look.

[Colt46]

It's not uncommon to see nothing but the rifling grooves on bullets recovered from 36" of wet newsprint or even large game. Linebaugh holds a seminar once a year and they do all sorts of Elmer Keith type activities. Bullet penetration tests are one of them. A heavy, hardcast revolver bullet at a moderate velocity will out penetrate most rifle calibers that rely on FMJ's, soft point or hollowpoint to inflict wounds. Your African big game solids would be an exception.
Most handgun hunters would prefer a larger caliber slug that will not expand or deform when hitting bone and is unlikely to deviate from it's intended course. There is a reason why the .45 Colt is still around.

If I were to hunt large game with the .357 I would use a hardcast slug of 180-200 grains and forget about soft and hollowpoints.

[cookekdjr]

Can't go wrong with .357 or .45 LC. A Used Ruger Blackhawk would be my choice for either.
That being said, I'd trust a G30 to handle almost any threat outside of Grizzly territory. 10+1 rounds of 230gr fmj .45 ACP? What Hog or Black Bear is gonna shrug that off?
-David

[nelson133]

I have Rugers in both calibers and like them both. My preference is for the .45, but I handload. IMHO, you should get a good amount of practice with anything you plan on using for self defense and facory ammo in .45LC aint cheap.
If you want tried and true, get a Ruger. I am sure that there are other fine guns on the market, but I know the Ruger track record. You should be able to find a used ruger for a good price.
There's nothing wrong with a .44 mag either.

[Ben Shepherd]

I'm going to agree with colt46 here. Two other big benefits of the 45 colt:

1. Less recoil. Faster follow-up shots if needed.
2. MUCH eaiser on ears.

I carry a 357 every day. I use hollowpoints in it to specifically limit penetration. But when heading into the sticks where I don't need to worry about through-n-through shots, along goes the 44 loaded with kieth type wadcutters loaded to 1200 fps. When you start going faster than that you actually start losing depth because the bullet uses some of the energy deforming. This expansion gives it more frontal area, which starts limiting penetration.
When hangun hunting you basically shoot your handgun like you would a bow.

Now if you get into hard targets, rather than soft, velocity rules.

[MCgunner]

1. Less recoil. Faster follow-up shots if needed.
2. MUCH eaiser on ears.

Umm, that's totally load dependent. When my .45 is chunking a 300 grain Hornady at 1200 fps out of a 4 5/8" barrel, it's considerably more of a handful of gun than my.357 with its hottest loads.

I say, if you want an outdoor gun, stick with the adjustable sight Blackhawk. Now, if you handload, get the .45 colt. If you don't handload, the .357 magnum will serve you well in the lower 48, will kill anything that needs killin' with hot 180 grain stuff. I've got one of each. I like 'em both a lot. My .357 does shoot a little flatter out at 100 yards, might mention that. Of course, it has the benefit of a 6.5" tube, also. Using irons off a bench, I can put 6 rounds into a 4" cluster at 100 and it's only 2" high at 50 with that sight in shooting a 180 grain slug at 1450 fps.

[Ben Shepherd]

MCgunner: If you read all the posts, he's looking at a specific 45 that's limited to low pressure/low recoiling loads. And I'm assuming from the tone of his posts that we're talking up close, in your face, oh S$^#!! shooting. So my reccomendation stands.

You are right though. No argument on the big picture, I've got over a dozen 357s and a couple ruger 45s, including a NIB redhawk I just picked up a couple weeks ago, and several 44s as well. I love the big n' nasty stuff. But in this specific case he'll be better served with a 45 running a 265ish grain Kieth type slug I think. Bigger hole, faster follow up, eaiser on ears, will go plenty deep. Only drawback is a little more weight.

[paddling_man]

Well, thanks for the loads of advice: The Uberti is out. If I do a S/A revolver, I think it will have to be a Ruger. In double-action, it is wide open to include S&W, Ruger and maybe even Taurus.

A 45LC sounds like fun but, since I don't plan to reload in the next year or so, I think I'll stick with the .44 mag followed by the .357.

As others have said, this won't be a hunting gun but a "Oh s*%t! Get off me!" gun. Lower 48, last-option woods defense for things with four or two legs.

I've actually decided to trade my full-size 10mm auto for one of the above revolvers. The auto shoots great, has a variety of loads (last was Reeds Ammo Hornady XTP 180 grain with 1660 fps and 675 ft/lbs.) Somehow though, I think I would feel beter with a revolver than an auto when around a sandy Great Lakes / Boundary Waters island camp out of my kayak.

Offers so far? Firm offer for a 3" Ruger Speed Six .357 stainless. Tentative with a Taurus Tracker .44 mag and a stainless 4" S&W 686 .357.

A 45LC will have to be in my future when I start to reload. I almost started reloading with the 10mm but never took the plunge.

Thanks again!

[michael_aos]

If you're still after a single-action, I've been eyeing a Cimarron Model 'P' in .44 Special for $399.

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/images/433-8.jpg

[michael_aos]

This is my hiking revolver. S&W Model 357PD.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/160230_large.jpg

[michael_aos]

You really can't go wrong with a Model 686.

If weight is an issue, the Model 327 might make a good outdoors gun.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/170254_large.jpg

[Jim March]

Wait. Let's step back to the "sea kayaking" part.

The dude needs a stainless gun. Period, end of discussion. Errr...well, aluminum (which is really what a scandium gun is, aluminum with traces of scandium which is like $6k a pound) would work too.

But blue? Fuggedumoudit.

Second: various large Rugers (and the Colt Anaconda) in 45LC were made in guns also compatible with 44Mag. They're as hefty as 44Mag guns but they allow the 45LC to take on a whole new life. Factory ammo labeled "Ruger ONLY!" of that sort is available...but they now have to say "errr, but not the Ruger New Vaquero" because that's the first Ruger factory 45LC that's not a 44mag-class frame/cylinder.

If you're going to run that sort of size, consider a 44Mag. But if you're NOT running that kind of heft, the 357 will "git'r'done" for your needs and will be a lot more flexible, allowing easy access to factory snakeshot/birdshot for small game survival, mild and accurate target wadcutters for game the size of a rabbit or seagull, in various stages all the way through 158gr hunting loads at 1,400fps+.

So which 357?

I own a Ruger New Vaquero in 357, an "old west" type gun I've been modifying :). I *love* this gun. I think it's the best of the modernized Colt SAAs that have transfer bar safeties of the sort the Ubertis lack. My gun is safe to load six-up, the Ubertis or other "true clones" of the Colt SAA 1873 can only be loaded "five beans in the wheel" with the hammer down on the empty chamber.

The other two are the Taurus Gaucho and Beretta Stampede.

All three are available in stainless, although they're usually not as common as most people want "old school" guns of this sort in blue or color-case-hardened looking (actually fake, done with chemicals).

All are available in 357. So find one in stainless...

Of the three, I bought the Ruger New Vaquero and my recommendation is that you do the same. Reason being, there's much more aftermarket support, and it's compatible with a lot of parts off the rest of the Ruger product line.

Ruger's "SuperBlackHawk" hammer is lower-slung, reducing your thumb reach. The "Bisley" hammer is even lower and fits too, although with a tad more filing. You can also swap to a whole series of grip frame options, tons of custom grip panels, etc. Or $25 gets you a more precise Belt Mountain base pin that tightens up your action and has a set-screw to prevent your base pin (the "axle" the cylinder spins on) from jumping out under recoil, basically the only halfway common defect in single action revolvers.

Mine also wears modified sights, which can be done on any SA. And...a bit of "psychological warfare" on the ejector housing :evil:.

http://www.equalccw.com/vaqhawk.jpg

Oh, yeah.: the other reason to buy a Ruger is that their stainless guns have a higher percentage of internal stainless components than most. The hammer, trigger, screws and even most springs are stainless in Ruger stainless guns. They start with the assumption that buyers of stainless guns are going to treat them rougher, and in the case of a sea kayaker that's a damned good assumption. You'll still want to strip your gun to bare metal, identify any stainless parts and apply a VERY advanced oil and/or metal treatment, such as the home moly-coat stuff that involves heating the parts first to moderate temps in an oven.

A lot of parts in an aluminum or scandium S&W such as those pictured are blue steel. It's no good having a gun at sea that MOSTLY won't rust. I grew up around small boats, I know full well that even high-chrome-content knife steels like, say, 420 or other "surgical stainless" steels can rust after salt water contact that doesn't get noticed right away. You want a gun that can take a full saltwater immersion, get dried off externally only and survive long enough for you to take it apart on-shore and fully detail clean it. And yeah, you'll have to, get used to the idea and spend $20 on a Brownell's screwdriver kit for your gun:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=406&s=

You're going to need one of those no matter what you buy: the main shaft is stainless, the carbon-steel bits are sealed fairly well inside the grip under a screw-on plastic cap.

The good news: Rugers are also very easy to field-strip. Get used to the idea of being able to do so and that you might be forced to under marine conditions.

[Outlaws]

Hey Jim, that picture seems odd to me. I have a NewVaquero (though its in Stainless) and my "warning" is not on the side of the barrel, but under it near the ejector.


You can't even see it in the picture, but there is a few tips of the letters visable if you zoom in close. Its like Ruger wised up and decided to hide it. Maybe I just got lucky though.
http://www.battletone.com/guns/vaq.jpg

[michael_aos]

Wait. Let's step back to the "sea kayaking" part.

Yep, that's why I suggested the scandium / titanium.

Mike

[Jim March]

Mike: look at your pics again...think that hammer and trigger are stainless? Doesn't look like it to me. How about the screws? They'll be color-matched to the frame, and you can't "blacken" stainless screws (or hammers or triggers) very effectively, so those won't be stainless. Now I could be wrong, and they ARE stainless, but if not...trust me, ain't no way I'd take 'em in a small ocean-going boat. It will get saltwater-sprayed eventually.

Outlaws: I have an early New Vaq, sn in the 5,000 range. Sometime after mine they rolled the warning label down under the barrel. (There was a minor recall and factory retrofit for guns under about sn 3,000ish I think...mine post-dates that. Any underbarrel-warning gun is *definately* post-recall.)

Your gun is just what the guy needs.

Hmmm.

One thing I'll note though: the GP100 (Ruger DA similar in weight/heft/toughness to the New Vaq) is capable of being field-stripped without tools. I think you can do a more complete detail-strip on the Ruger SAs but it does take some screws...the five grip frame screws should be as far as he needs to go in most cases.

Also: can anyone recommend a good emergency-use spray for this guy, something he can keep handy and do a quick spray-down of a gun that's been saltwater-dunked? I'm visualizing a drill where he realizes the gun is soaked, pulls the ammo out and wipes them down with a dry cloth, then sprays the hell out of the gun pending a detailed strip'n'clean later.

I know that WD40 is NOT the answer in this situation...but what is?

What else...he's going to need a kydex holster. If leather or any sort of cloth (natural or artificial fiber, doesn't matter) gets wet it will retain the salt water. Not good. Kydex could be wiped down by shoving a dry cloth in there, as long as the "slick side" of the kydex is inwards as almost all are.

Folks, trust me when I tell you, CCW in a marine water environment is just a whole 'nuther world, based on my experiences with knives under such conditions. Stainless isn't an option, it's a dire necessity.

[Ben Shepherd]

OOPS. Yikes, didn't see the part about water before. Oh yeah, stainless all the way. This is where a good DA ruger in stainless comes in. The 44 you're talking about is very close to perfect. Why?

1. With a 44 mag., you can get any power level ammo you want, from 44 speciasl stuff, clear up to garrett hammerheads or corbon penetrators.

2. Because the ruger is by far the easiest to field strip, and get back into working condition. All you need is a penny, dime, small screwdriver, etc., to get the grip panels off, and a small can of WD40(WATER DISPLACING FORMULA 40). This is the only time WD40 gets near my guns, but in this type of situation it's dang near perfect. Just make sure to care for the gun properly when the trip is over.

[.38 Special]

Once we get past the no-longer-in-effect requirements outlined in the opening post, the answer becomes very simple, IMO: a stainless double action .44 Mag, just like Ben says. And there's certainly nothing wrong with Ruger's version, except that it's ugly. :D

[michael_aos]

I have 4 S&W revolvers. 2 K-frame, 2 N-frame. All fairly recent manufacture.

Looking at the triggers and hammers on the Model 64, Model 67 and Model 629 Mountain Gun, they all look very similar. I assumed they were stainless. They're not very shiny, but they're definitely not blued.

The trigger and hammer on the 357PD are different. The trigger definitely has the same finish as the scandium frame. I think the hammer does too.

I'm guessing some sort of paint.

Mike

[michael_aos]

S&W has made the Model 625 .45 Colt in a 4" Mountain Gun configuration.

I couldn't find one when I was looking for it, so I bought the 629 Mountain Gun.

I have seem them since though.

Mike

[Jim March]

First, I just don't see this guy needing 44Mag power levels. He CAN use them, and download to 44Spl when necessary, but first, it's overkill and second he's got to worry about total load weight. Sea kayaking is a lot like backpacking. Total load weight matters, as does bulk.

Second: I still say he ought to stick with Ruger, esp. if he's going to do a DA. The field-strip procedure is far simpler on a Ruger than on guns with sideplates (Taurus, S&W or Colt). The field-strip on all the SAs is going to be similar but I suspect the Ruger is easiest there too. Also a lot easier to get and replace small internal parts like springs, screws, etc. if they rust. Lots more parts support at Brownell's or whatever for such bits in a Ruger versus offshore origin Taurus and Beretta/Uberti guns...

This isn't just a "possibly wet" situation, it's a "possibly drenched in saltwater" issue. Which is basically worst-cast-scenario where rust is concerned. I am 100% convinced he will need to pack along the right screwdriver set and eventually, he'll have to make use of it in the field.

[Outlaws]

For what its worth, my friend had a S&W 642 (it was not black, it was the grey one) at his old place which was swamp cooled.......in one or two months tops it had started to get rust on the trigger. Same with a few other guns he had.

Just something to think about on the rust situation.

[Jim March]

Yup. And that was freshwater, high humidity. This is going to be saltwater humidity, with occasional saltwater contact...a whole 'nuther realm.

[Carl N. Brown]

I do use WD40 as a quick cleaner but do not believe in using it
anywhere I cannot wipe it off.

Spray a little WD40 in a cup and check it over a period of days
as the solvent evaporates. That stuff can sludge up a gun
mechanism badly. Now, if used where you can wipe it off. OK,
but not in the action of a revolver, unless you intend to detail
strip and clean afterwards.

[michael_aos]

.45 colt. Also happens to chamber .454 Casull.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/229L.jpg

[michael_aos]

357's

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/53L.jpg

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/127L.jpg

[Wolfen]

paddling_man

Welcome aboard.

I recently had your dilemma except I was pondering a
Stainless Ruger New Vaquero in 45LC and a
Stainless Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44MAG - both
with 4-5/8" barrels.

The trigger and complete action on the Vaquero was
outstanding. I swear its factory tuned. Also, it just
fits nice and naturally comes into straight wrist and
forearm alignment.

Mike1951 is right - The New Vaquero won't handle
the "Buffalo Bore .45Colts". However, I couldn't pass
it up and intend to load up some 900 - 1,00 fps rounds
for the heavy end and possibly some 45 Schofield for
the lighter loads.

I figure to use the 44Mag. for woods backup. It'll stop
just about anything I can run into here in Colorado..

No matter what cal. you get, I would make it a Ruger
to launch it.

[Wolfen]

Outlaw -

"Hey Jim, that picture seems odd to me. I have a NewVaquero (though its in Stainless) and my "warning" is not on the side of the barrel, but under it near the ejector.

You can't even see it in the picture, but there is a few tips of the letters visable if you zoom in close. Its like Ruger wised up and decided to hide it. Maybe I just got lucky though."

That's where mine is stamped.

[Jim March]

The new mid-frame Ruger SAs are made to a higher standard than previous larger (and smaller for that matter) frames made since 1973. When Ruger thought up this new "SAA similar size" class guns they came up with new processes to make them. They knew that most would be snapped up by the CAS/SASS crowd and would likely see competitive usage. The actions are smoother, the lockup tighter and the cylinder dimensions better and more uniform. We're no longer seeing cylinders with slightly different forcing cone bore sizes because instead of using six drill bits at once on a cylinder they're using one and drilling one at a time in sequence.

That's not to say that some damned fine Ruger SA prior models haven't been made, they certainly have...and quality control has apparantly varied over the years, with recent production being pretty good. But the New Vaquero and "50th Anniversary" 357Mag Blackhawk on the same frame are exceptional.

Unfortunately that one mid-frame Blackhawk (the only adjustable-sight midframe so far) is blue only, no stainless. It's New Vaq cousin is available stainless though...and I'd recommend 357 over 45.

[paddling_man]

Gentlemen:

Thanks for all of the sage advice. I don't think there were any "wrong" answers and there was something to be learned from every post. Again, thanks.

Stainless being the key and Ruger being another important factor for durability and hot loading, my search group was limited.

I happened upon an unfired (except for the single factory round,) New Model Blackhawk .357, stainless, 4-5/8" barrel, with Hogue grips. The Hogue grips are darned ugly and the factory grips couldn't be found but darn if they aren't comfortable!

I can't wait to get it to the range Saturday!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/paddling_man/guns/blackhawk/BH2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/paddling_man/guns/blackhawk/BH1.jpg

[michael_aos]

I recently installed a set of those on my Ruger Blackhawk convertible.

Really a HUGE PIA to install, and scratched the hell out of the blueing.

Ugly, ugly, ugly.

But they do feel pretty good. I haven't even shot it yet since I installed them.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/299L.jpg

[wheelgunslinger]

dont forget to tether that thing to you or your kayak just in case you roll.

Nice choice. It'll be perfect.

[.38 Special]

Good choice, mate. I'm sure it'll do ya.

[Jim March]

Paddling_man: GREAT choice. The grip is funky but y'know, if it works, kewl :). That gun can handle ANY factory 357 with aplomb and is a great platform to learn reloading with as the frame was originally meant for the 44Mag. Meaning you've got a "strength margin of error" to play with.

You CAN break that gun but you will have to really screw up to do so :).

Two suggestions:

Depending on your hand size, you may want to run a hammer that is lower-slung than stock. You have two choices, the SuperBlackHawk type that will usually just drop in, and the Bisley type that is even lower but the hammer will need to be slightly altered to fit that grip frame. It's not hard, as it's the back edge of the hammer that needs changing versus the sear face area. Basically if you go with a Bisley ask for help over on the revolver forum.

My New Vaq sports a stainless SuperBlackHawk hammer (and some sight modifications):

http://www.equalccw.com/vaqhawk.jpg

I also put a spring kit in. The spring kits include reduced-power trigger return and main springs and an extra-power spring at the cross-pin base pin latch. This helps the gun resist throwing it's base pin loose under recoil, one of the only weaknesses to the Ruger SAs. (The other cure for latch jump is the Belt Mountain base pins with a set screw, about $25.)

The hammer cost me $35 at Brownells and the spring kit less than $20.

The gun may fit your hand as is, which is fine. But if not, tune it to fit you. Regardless, if it EVER jumps the base pin get ready to apply one of the two fixes quickly, and a lot of people (myself included) do at least the spring with a spring kit.

The other place to customize these is the sights. You have replaceable sight blades front and rear and can get things like Gold Bead fronts and Ghost Ring rears...check out http://www.oneraggedhole.com/The_RUGER_One_Hole_Sight.htm as a (cheap!) example.

[el44vaquero]

I like my S&W 19-4 .357 mag with 4 inch barrel in a leather shoulder holster while I'm out brushhogging or stretching fence.

[paddling_man]

Thanks for the info! The ghost ring site looks interesting. I may have to try that. I'm definitely looking forward to getting out and shooting it!

[Outlaws]

Great purchase. Make sure you put it in a bag while on the river or get a holster with a strap because that thing will sink like a rock.

[Cosmoline]

The .45 Colt is a nice cartridge, but it has some drawbacks. Only a select number of revolvers can shoot the powerhouse loads. The SAA's and SAA clones are only safe to shoot with SAAMI spec loads, which don't offer any real advantage over a .357 firing a hardcast 180 or 200 grain slug. Plus, it's not easy to find .45 Colt +P. For the most part it's a handloading proposition.

I think you'll be well served with your choice. For field carry 180 Grain SP's work good.

[Ben Shepherd]

Good choice. Enjoy. One suggestion:

Set the sights for a hot 180 hardcast load, like the cor-bon or federal cast core offerings. That's IF this is going to be a gun dedicated to backwoods use.

Otherwise set them for a standard type 158 load.

That's my advice, for what it's worth.

[paddling_man]

Ben... Best outlet for a hot 180 grain hard cast load?

Thanks!

[ArchAngelCD]

As for 180 gr loads, Winchester makes a really good 180 gr hunting load in .357 Mag. It's their Supreme Partition Gold and it's designed for deep penetration. http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=S357P I bought a box for the summer when I go into the back country fishing. I was going to use 158 gr rounds until I did some research on these. Remington has a 165 gr Core-Lokt Hunting round but I don't know anything about it other than it exists.

I didn't know anything about cast core/bonded core rounds until Ben mentioned it so I will have to read up on them. Thanks for the info.

[Ben Shepherd]

ArchAngelCD: I had forgotten that one. Another good load would be the hornady 180 XTP running at around 1300. Very stiff for sure but should work well.

Paddling_man:

Is ther a cabelas or sportsmans wharehouse near you? Have you looked at midway usa's website?

[paddling_man]

I have a Bass Pro and Dicks Sporting Goods. The Dicks SG is pretty limited.

[ArchAngelCD]

I think your best bet would be an online store. I have a Dick's, Gander Mountian, Walmart and 2 small local stores near me and none carry 180 gr .357 hunting loads.

I have found good prices here: http://natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?contentID=ammoGroup&ammoGroup=2&searchBy=size&size=20