7.62??


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The Deer Hunter
November 23, 2006, 10:08 PM
So i was wondering about 7.62 ammunition, I have a few questions;
-does that equate to 30 caliber?
-does 7.62x39=.308 Win?
-(if not)what does 7.62 equal?
-is 7.62x39=7.62 nato?



i am thinking about getting an SKS and i am totally clueless about the cartridge it fires. Also, any additional info that i havent asked about would be great also

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1911JMB
November 23, 2006, 10:24 PM
Yes its a 30 caliber, no they are not the same. 7.62x51 nato is also known as the .308 winchester which is the M14 round. The 7.62x39 ammo is the less potent russian round which goes in AK's and SKS's.

Farnham
November 23, 2006, 10:26 PM
7.62x39 (the Soviet round) uses a .311 inch diameter bullet, .308 Winchester (7.62x51 NATO) uses a .308 inch diameter bullet. .30-06 (7.62x63) uses a .308 caliber bullet, as does .300 Win Mag, but so does 7.5 Swiss...:scrutiny: I ain't figured that one out, yet. So, yes, near as I can tell, 7.62 mm does equal .30 of an inch.

I read somewhere that European rounds are measured in the grooves, American rounds are measured land to land, which causes some of the confusion.

S/F

Farnham

possum
November 23, 2006, 11:04 PM
7.62 is the other contry's way of saying .30 cal, they go off the metric system , and for us we go off the standard system, so to us 7.62 means .30 of an inch. which .30 of an inch translates in metric to 7.62.

kinda like 5.56mm is .223 of an inch. tracking? good!

7.62x39 has been explained earlier by other posters, used primarily in sks's ak's, rpk's etc and the like.

7.62x51 is used by the us militay and nato in such weapons as the m60, m240b,c, m21, and m24's same as the civilian .308

7.62x54, used in russian mosin nagants, dragnouv's and clones, as well as the russian pkm machine guns and there varients! this rd is similar to the u.s. 30-06 rd

hope this helps.

GigaBuist
November 23, 2006, 11:08 PM
The more you know about it the less ammunition nomenclature makes sense. :)

The SKS shoots 7.62x39mm. For now I suppose that's all you need to know unless you want to get into reloading.

7.62x51mm (aka 7.62NATO) and .308 Win aren't the same thing, IIRC. The 7.62NATO isn't rated for as high a pressure as the sporting .308 Win is. I'm not sure how this came about -- just something I've seen warned about a bunch on here. You can shoot .7.62NATO in a .308 Win chambered rifle but it isn't always safe to do the opposite.

It's best not to think that the numbers in the cartridge name are all that matter. Figure they're rough guidelines of what the cartridge will look like.

Colt46
November 23, 2006, 11:21 PM
And for good reason. I can't think of any good, standard rules when it comes to the subject. Carrying the decimal point out to the hundredths column seems to be a military trait. The 7.62 could mean the M43 Soviet, the NATO, even the .30-06 Springfield. I think it refers to any caliber of .300 or thereabouts. Sometimes they even boost it up a few hundredths to boost its self esteem. Hence the 7.65 MM Mauser.
The only absolute on this subject would be the .38-40 Winchester. That has to be my favorite .38 caliber handgun ever:D

ugaarguy
November 23, 2006, 11:32 PM
To follow up, and clarify. First, very important, 7.62 NATO (7.62x51) while dimensionally identical to .308 Win is not the same ammo. If I remember right, the max pressure on .308 Win by SAAMI standards is 60,000 PSI, and 7.62 NATO is rated at a max pressure of 50,000 PSI. I don't have a reloading manual in front of me (deployed right now), so I may be a little off, but the .308 Win does have about a 10k PSI higher max pressure than the 7.62 NATO. I believe surplusrifle.com or .org did an article on this. Again, deployed so I'm limited to what websites I can get to, and sometimes the web filter blocks stuff for no apparent reason :confused: . The whole point though is just to be careful with .308 Win in older 7.62 NATO rifles, i.e. the Spanish '96 Mausers that were converted for the Gaurdia Civil, and like weapons.

On the subject of the 7.62x39 it's very similar, ballistics wise, to a 30-30. Trajectory, and velocity are nearly identical on bullets of the same weight. Think of the 7.62x39 as a Russian version version of the 30-30 that was designed to run in semi autos. Those same weight bullets though are on the heavy end for 7.62x39 and light end for 30-30. The 30-30 is typically loaded with a bit heaver rounds as you can see. Hunting loads in 7.62x39 are less common but still available. Both cartridges are good medium range 30 cal rounds with low recoil, and the versatility to be used for defense, hunting, and even plinking. The SKS lends itself to hunting duties a bit easier than an AK, and still works quite well in the defensive role. Hopefully that puts the 7.62x39 into a little clearer perspective.

Edit: Just to add a bit to the 7.62 confusion, the 30-06 is 7.62x56mm ;)

Erinyes
November 23, 2006, 11:56 PM
Edit: Just to add a bit to the 7.62 confusion, the 30-06 is 7.62x56mm Actually, it's 7.62x63mm :neener:

Cosmoline
November 24, 2006, 12:19 AM
It's perfectly clear. The 7.62 NATO is .308" and like the .308, and the 7.5 Swiss is .308" but the 7.62x54R is not .308", nor is it .308. The 7.62x39 is neither .308 nor .308".

MachIVshooter
November 24, 2006, 12:21 AM
-does that equate to 30 caliber?

Yes, roughly. But 7.62 is used to denote cartridges with bullet diameters ranging from .308"-.312". Likewise, other .30 caliber rounds in that diameter range are denoted between 7.5 and 7.82mm.

-does 7.62x39=.308 Win? As stated above, no.

-(if not)what does 7.62 equal? See answer #1.

-is 7.62x39=7.62 nato? No. 7.62 NATO (7.62x51mm) is the military version of .308 Winchester. Dimensionally identicle, the commercial ammunition uses slightly thinner brass and higher operating pressures. In some guns it is interchangeable, others not so much. Know your firearm.

.30 caliber rifle cartridges of the world:

US origin:

.30 Carbine
.30 Remington
.30-30 Win. (7.62x51Rmm)
.30-40 Krag
.300 Savage
.303 Savage
.307 Winchester
.308 Winchester (7.62x51mm)
.30-06 Springfield (7.62x63mm)
.300 Winchester Magnum
.300 Weatherby Magnum
.300 Remington Ultra Mag.
7.82mm Warbird
7.82mm Patriot

Other:
7.35x51mm Carcano (close enough ;) )
7.5x54mm MAS
7.5x55mm Schmidt-Rubin
7.62x39mm Soviet
7.62x45mm Czech
7.62x54Rmm Soviet
7.65mm Mauser
7.7x58mm Arisaka
7.7x60Rmm
.300 Rook
.300 Sherwood
.300 H&H (rimmed and rimless versions)
.30 Purdy
.303 Magnum
.375/303 Axite
.30R Blaser
.308 Norma Magnum
.303 British

All of these use bullets of .304"-.313" Diameter bullets, Except the 7.35 Carcano (.298")

Edit:

If this scale looks lopsided and favoring America for cartridge development, one must consider that the Europeans have spent much more energy on 7mm and 8mm cartridges. And the British have devloped the most big bores by a wide margin, no doubt due to their late-19th/early20th obsession with hunting dangerous game in Africa.

blackhawk2000
November 24, 2006, 12:25 AM
7.62/25.4=.3

.308*25.4=7.8232

To go back and forth from metric to english, either multiply or divide by 25.4.

gunny1022
November 24, 2006, 07:22 AM
Your favorite .38-40 is actually .40 caliber!

Mojo-jo-jo
November 24, 2006, 08:39 AM
The SKS fires 7.62x39, a Russian military intermediate cartridge. This is the same cartridge used in (most) AK-47's and it's many variants.

NOT the same as 30-06, .308, .300 Win Mag, etc.

The closest (yet NOT identical) ballistic comparison to a common U.S.-market cartridge is 30-30 Winchester. Your SKS will perform (ballistically) similar to a 30-30 Winchester, such as the md. 94.

Overall, the SKS is a good shooting, very robust and extremely reliable (yet some say "ugly") semi-auto rifle. It is not a tack driver nor a "bear gun" but is a good choice for many applications.

Buy one, you won't regret it.

The Deer Hunter
November 24, 2006, 03:21 PM
7.62/25.4+.3

.308*25.4=7.8232

To go back and forth from metric to english, either multiply or divide by 25.4.

its 2.52 not 25.4

1"=2.54cm

blackhawk2000
November 24, 2006, 04:54 PM
7.62/2.52=3.0238095238095238095238095238095

.308*2.52=0.77616


?????
Sorry, but your math is fuzzy.

JohnMc
November 24, 2006, 06:33 PM
its 2.52 not 25.4

1"=2.54cm
The Deer Hunter,
It is indeed 2.54 centimeters (cm) to an inch. It is also 25.4 millimeters (mm) to an inch. This is because there are 10 mm per 1 cm. FWIW, it's also 0.254 decimeters or 0.0254 meters to an inch. Was the 2.52 a typo?

blackhawk2000, sorry, but you did something that used to garner me points off on math tests; forgot to use labels! :)

rangerruck
November 25, 2006, 12:30 AM
they may have a similar dia bullet, but the case lengths are all diff. they are not interchangeable to fire.

Medusa
November 25, 2006, 05:43 AM
7.62x51 NATO - .308 Win
7.62x39 - 7.62 Soviet
7.62x54R - 7.62 Russian (IIRC on those last 2)

Dr. Dickie
November 25, 2006, 06:31 AM
Okay, so why is the .38 really .357 and you have to get a .380 to really be .38 (which is the 9 mm), mmm?:neener:

Coronach
November 25, 2006, 12:58 PM
Okay, so why is the .38 really .357 and you have to get a .380 to really be .38 (which is the 9 mm), mmm?Your answer is found earlier in the thread. ;)

Cartridge nomenclature will cause sober men to drink

The more you know about it the less ammunition nomenclature makes sense.

It really makes no sense. Some of the cartridge names are an accurate description of the dimensions of the cartridge. Others are not.

It's best not to think that the numbers in the cartridge name are all that matter. Figure they're rough guidelines of what the cartridge will look like. That's probably the best advice. Treat it as a name that denotes a unique cartridge, that may or may not accurately reflect the dimensions of the round.

Things get even more confusing when you consider that 9mm kurz = 9mm short = .380 ACP = 9x17mm ...

Mike

JesseL
November 25, 2006, 01:47 PM
Okay, so why is the .38 really .357 and you have to get a .380 to really be .38 (which is the 9 mm), mmm?

.380ACP is actually .355", and .38ACP & .38 Super are .356".

IIRC the 38 caliber designation derives from the days when revolvers were transitioning from cap & ball to cartridges. The typical .36 C&B revolver used .375" round balls, and when they converted to cartridges they used .375" heeled bullets and called them .38s. When they switched from heeled bullets to inside lubricated bullets they kept the cases the same and reduced the bores and bullets to .357".

Froggy
November 25, 2006, 02:02 PM
i am thinking about getting an SKS and i am totally clueless about the cartridge it fires. Also, any additional info that i havent asked about would be great also

You will enjoy that SKS. The ammo you want will come in boxes labeled 7.62x39. The best buy around here is Wolf ammo. You local gun store or military surplus store is likely to have it. You can also find it on line.

It's best not to think that the numbers in the cartridge name are all that matter. Figure they're rough guidelines of what the cartridge will look like.

Absolutely. As others have said (above) the 7.62 NATO round (.308 Win) is a lot longer than the 7.62x39mm ammo for your SKS. Pictures say it better than words....scroll down towards the bottom of this page and have a look:

http://www.65grendel.com/65g_arammo.htm

The first pic in the series shows a 7.62x39mm (Soviet) and a 7.62x51mm (NATO) in a lineup with other cartridges.

soutex50
January 5, 2007, 01:53 AM
I know, I know November 06...why a search button then? Anyways, simple question...Can or can't you shoot .308 out of a SA m14 rifle say early 60's manuf?

Hoppy590
January 5, 2007, 02:08 AM
yes you can. most civilian ammo is underloaded in comparison to its modern military countr part. thats not to say any specific is better or worse or that the barrels are proofed differantly, cause i dont know. but military ammo is concerned with killing or be killed, civilians are concerned with lawsuites. so civi ammo is loaded slightly lower so that theres less risk of barrel failure due to pressure

HiroProX
January 5, 2007, 02:13 AM
.308 Winchester =(sorta) 7.62x51mm NATO. Used in the M14/M1A, FAL, and G3
7.62x39mm is actually .311, the same bore as the 7.62x54mmR rimmed Russian imperial round. The difference comes from the old Russian imperial measurement system in use when the Mosin-Nagant rifle was adopted. The Nagant was called a "three line rifle" as a "line" was ostensibly 0.1". A leftover of this is the occasional Mosin-Nagant with a rear sight calibrated in "arshins", basically... paces.

MrDig
January 5, 2007, 03:26 AM
Once again I will state that while 7.62 NATO ammunition is spec'd to lower pressure standards than Civilian .308, the weapons that use 7.62 NATO are spec'd out to handle the pressure of civilian rounds. This is to ensure the safety of a soldier who may need to scavange ammunition during battle.
Why do you never see the same warnings about 5.56 NATO/.223 Remington?
Do you know the pressure of a High Pressure Test Round used by military Armories? 62,000 psi that right 62,000 psi. if a weapon will handle that it will handle .308

Bazooka Joe71
January 5, 2007, 04:12 AM
7.62x39 (the Soviet round) uses a .311 inch diameter bullet, .308 Winchester (7.62x51 NATO) uses a .308 inch diameter bullet. .30-06 (7.62x63) uses a .308 caliber bullet, as does .300 Win Mag, but so does 7.5 Swiss... I ain't figured that one out, yet. So, yes, near as I can tell, 7.62 mm does equal .30 of an inch.

My head is spinning.:confused: :eek: :what:

JWarren
January 5, 2007, 10:08 AM
Hi...

I am a long-time reader of THR, but haven't gotten around to registering. I have really enjoyed the information and discussion on this board, and find myself visiting practically daily.

I just wanted to point out that it isn't accurate to say that commercial ammunition is underpowered in relation to its military surplus counterpart typically.

I am speaking specifically regarding 7.62 x 51 NATO and .308 Win, as that is the only one that I've looked into in any depth. According to a number of posts on the FALfiles.com, we are repeatedly reminded that .308 Win creates much higher chamber pressures than surplus 7.62 NATO. I saw some numbers that indicated as much as a 25K PSI difference in the two rounds, generally speaking.

If anything, commercial ammunition is going to be significantly hotter than its surplus counterpart. Again, I am speaking specifically about 7.62 NATO and 308 Win (which it is my understanding that there are small differences in the rounds anyway.)

It may be also good to point out that typically commercial brasses are thinner than their military counterpart. That may mean something to reloaders (which I am soon to start learning.)

Anyway, thanks for all the discussion on this board.


John Warren

Bazooka Joe71
January 5, 2007, 03:31 PM
If anything, commercial ammunition is going to be significantly hotter than its surplus counterpart. Again, I am speaking specifically about 7.62 NATO and 308 Win (which it is my understanding that there are small differences in the rounds anyway.)

Who said otherwise in this post??

First of all, I don't know much at all, conserning different loads and how hot they are, but the only thing I've heard here is that commercial is hotter, and thats why 5.56 nato can be fired in a .223 rifle, but .223 can't be fired in a 5.56 nato rifle.

Like I said, I don't know a whole lot about rifle loads, but everything I do know I learned here, and I have never heard otherwise.

Hoppy590
January 5, 2007, 04:19 PM
im just going by things iv read on the internet. im no expert. but i was under the impression Mil. ammo is hotter.

seeker_two
January 5, 2007, 05:44 PM
7.62x39 (the Soviet round) uses a .311 inch diameter bullet, .308 Winchester (7.62x51 NATO) uses a .308 inch diameter bullet. .30-06 (7.62x63) uses a .308 caliber bullet, as does .300 Win Mag, but so does 7.5 Swiss... I ain't figured that one out, yet. So, yes, near as I can tell, 7.62 mm does equal .30 of an inch.

And let us not forget the .303Brit (7.7mmR/.311"), the 7.7 Arisaka (.311"), the 7.65 Argentine Mauser (.311"), and the 7.5 MAS (.308")....

My head is spinning. :confused: :eek: :what:

...and now it's flown off your shoulders, right?... :p

Eightball
January 5, 2007, 05:51 PM
When discussing 7.62, don't forget the Tokarev bullet! :neener: 7.62x25, is it?

Cosmoline
January 5, 2007, 05:58 PM
Yeah, and isn't the Tok actually shooting .307" bullets in the ball ammo? And then there's the .30 Carbine, which IIRC was designed for .365" bullets but which can be loaded with .308" bullets.

4fingermick
January 5, 2007, 11:26 PM
The metric system is the only one with consistent rules, the English and American systems are as loose as a goose. It's pretty much up to the manafacturer to name the round. This is surprising, because th emetric system was developed in Euroupe, which contains many countries, but they have consistency and consensus.

The whole world is pretty much metric now, it's a shame American's cant do metric, it really does make a whole heap of sense.

Cousin Mike
January 6, 2007, 02:33 AM
The whole world is pretty much metric now, it's a shame American's cant do metric, it really does make a whole heap of sense.

Hey, as a carpenter by trade, I resent that. :p

And who said we can't do metric? Anyone who can count can do metric... It's all multiples of 10, and memorizing a buncha funny unit names. Just be glad cartridges are named using the metric system, even if the measurements tend to be a little off...

If we used our system, we'd measure them in xx/64". :evil:

TX_Shooter
January 6, 2007, 02:55 AM
Here is the way I been looking at it:

.223 = M16 ammo (USA)


7.62x39 = AK ammo (Russia/ in Vietnam, the Vietnamese guys used this)


.308 is another beast, which is more powerful then both mention above. I don't want that nato caliber, but I know it cost more @ the gun shelf, so I pass :( .

So, who won the Vietnam War? ok, ok , not fair. But I am looking hard to get another rifle which accepts the 7.62 cal. It seem to be little more potent then the .223 and is little less pricey then the .223 from my gather research. I am sure I am not right on, but I am comfortable w/ my decision/

Ok, time to go watch Platoon :cool:

JWarren
January 6, 2007, 03:00 AM
I was referring to a reference in Hoppy's earlier post...

I practically grew up with a gun in my hand, hunted for the last 25 or so years, but I never really got interested in reloading or such until recently.

Frankly, Hoppy, that kinda surprised me as well. I suppose I had always had the impression that military means hotter, or tougher, or whatever. I clearly underestimated the desire of the sporting market (including me) to push the envelope. It wasn't until I got a FAL before I started reading about 7.62.

:)

John

Clark
January 8, 2007, 12:10 AM
Some sources refer to 7.62x25mm Tokarev as .307".

I have here some 1955 Polish Tokarev ammo and the the pulled bullets measure .307".


I have a 303 Brit Efield No4 mkI that the muzzle measures .318" across the grooves and key holes .308" bullets, but shoots .310" bullets ok.

ithacalover
January 8, 2007, 01:53 AM
Not the dreaded 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester debate!
When I bought a surplus FR-8 in 7.62 I heeded some of the online "you're-all-going-to-die!" warnings about the interchangeability of these two cartriges and only shot 147-grain FMJ's in .308 out of the thing until I could find some surplus European NATO stuff. I don't think there was any difference, but I would hesitate to shoot 180-grain PowerPoints out of the thing.
As one of the most hotly-contested surplus guns out there, I've never come across a story of barrel failure with them. I think It's mostly an urban legend. Of course, I only stick to the 7.62 loads now.

RioShooter
January 8, 2007, 02:05 AM
Okay, so why is the .38 really .357

The case is very close to .38 in. The bullet is .357.

mljdeckard
January 8, 2007, 02:59 AM
When I had an M1A, I tried 7.62 AND .308 through it. The warnings I saw were that as the rifle heats up, you will start to get failure to eject. Maybe I didn't do it long enough, but it never happened to me.

Shoot 7.62 through bolt-rifles in .308 all you want. Good cheap practice. (Sometimes. Not as cheap as it used to be, I guess.)

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