Springfield GI45 - Failure to Return to Battery


PDA






BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 12:10 AM
I have a new Springfield GI.45 1911 that is experiencing some Return to Battery failures. The slide usually stops about 1/2" from home and this occures about 1 out of 30. Just FYI I've put about 350 rounds through the gun since new. I can get it to feed with no problems when I'm at home, but when I take it to the range it starts to act up...usually starting when I release the slide from the slide stop, chambering the first round. It sometimes but very rarely occures after that, I think because the slide is travelling faster. I doubt its the magazines as it acts up with both--one original and the other Chip McKormick...both new.

I'm thinking its the extractor, as I can't find any other obvious reasons. The tension seems to be a bit excessive, but in all honesty, I dont know what a good extractor feels like. I dont want to replace it unless I absolutely have to. What can I do to test it? What can I do to 'tweak' or modify it?

One more thing, I've tried MagTech 230grn FMJ, along with similar Winchesters both FMJ and 230grn hollowpoints. It doesn't seem to matter.

Thanks ahead of time.

-Benjamin

If you enjoyed reading about "Springfield GI45 - Failure to Return to Battery" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Outlaws
November 24, 2006, 12:36 AM
So it chambers a round about 80% into the chamber when you release the slide?

My GI model did that. I sent it to Springfield yesterday. They said they would take care of it and send it back, along with covering shipping both ways. (I had to front the initial shipping though, but I get it back).

I posted over at 1911forum.com about it in greater detail. Mine was doing it a little more often than yours, but it sounds like its the same basic problem.

SoCalShooter
November 24, 2006, 12:44 AM
So the round stovepipes or just feed jams? If its feed jams could be the ramp or definetly the magazine, I ha a similiar problem with magazine that were knew and the springs were much to tight and it was causing the slide not to release on the first battery. 1/2 the way means you got to have something getting in the way. Gun may not be worn in enough, but with 350 rounds you should be getting there or be there, the thing is with the actual ejection port on that is considered small, if you look at newer style 1911's the ejection port is much lower cut to allow for easier extraction, could be a design thing but I am sure that if you send it back to Springfield they would not hesitate to look at if for you. But honestly I would put another 500 rounds through it just to make sure its broken in...and 500 rounds to me is 1 time to the range if necessary, lots of practice that day.:)


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2872359

Please check this thread also, read the first post. (damn I have been somewhat useful today)

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 12:49 AM
Thanks for the replies.

Outlaws:
I've thought about sending it to Springfield but I wanted a little input about the problem before sending it back. This is my first handgun (and I've wanted a 1911 forever) so I'm just a little hesitant to send my 'baby' back to its maker.

SoCalShooter:
It's not stovepiping. A round gets chambered (almost) but the slide stops moving about 1/2" from battery. This gun has no problem with ejection. Money is a bit tight, but I'll try to put a few hundred more rounds thru the thing in the next couple weeks.

Regards,
Benjamin

Outlaws
November 24, 2006, 12:51 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2872359

Please check this thread also, read the first post. (damn I have been somewhat useful today)

Actually, I didn't update on this site the way I did over at 1911forum.com. The thing fails to feed while firing....a lot.

SoCalShooter
November 24, 2006, 12:53 AM
Put some more rounds through it, get to about 1000 and see if it still happens, remember the design was NEARLY perfect (gonna get slammed for this one) thats why there ARE improved version of the 1911 design.:)

RNB65
November 24, 2006, 12:55 AM
Do you keep your mags loaded at home? It may be caused by tight springs in new magazines. Keep all your mags fully loaded at home and see if the problem doesn't go away.

I used to have a similar problem with all eight of my new Springfield mags. The slide occasionally wouldn't close completely on the first round. Started leaving the mags loaded at all times and the problem disappeared.

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 01:03 AM
For the purpose of preserving the spring, I only keep one magazine loaded at a time. I switch 'em every week or two. I have 4 more magazines from Springfield on the way. I'll try to break 'em in a bit more tho.

Regards,
Benjamin

XavierBreath
November 24, 2006, 01:04 AM
I adjust my extractors so that they will hold a loaded round against the breech face with the slide removed from the frame, and the barrel out of the slide. Here are a couple of links to help explain. Link (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=33) Link (http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/reliability_secrets.htm)

An old gunsmith trick to test the tension of the extractor is to remove the slide from the pistol, and push a round of ammo up under the extractor from below. With proper tension, the round should be held in place regardless of how the slide is turned, yet when the round is moved downwards from its center position about 1/10 of an inch, the round should drop off.


It has been my experience that the recoil spring supplied in the Springfield guns wears out rather quickly. I have replaced the recoil spring in all three of my Springers with a Nowlin variable spring. The first two Springfields developed the problems you describe prior to 500 rounds, on the third, I simply replaced the spring preemptively.

I would polish the extractor as shown in the second link above, and set the tension, then perhaps try a new recoil spring.

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 01:16 AM
I might try a new recoil spring cuz they're so cheap. Should I go the max and get the 18.5lb spring?

Outlaws
November 24, 2006, 01:16 AM
For the purpose of preserving the spring, I only keep one magazine loaded at a time. I switch 'em every week or two.

You won't wear out magazine springs anytime soon. Not that you can't, but its not something to worry about. Infact some will argue that the more you use them (loading and unloading/firing), the faster they wear out.

Geronimo45
November 24, 2006, 01:21 AM
Try oiling the slide rails. Only time my GI45 failed to go into battery was going off slide lock onto a new magazine - slingshot the slide and it would load. All following rounds went off fine. Some oils may dry up quicker than others, YMMV.

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 01:50 AM
It's been oiled well. But it still has the problem. Usually when it recycles or I rack one manually it works...usually, but I've had a few problems even then.

-Benjamin

Black Majik
November 24, 2006, 02:22 AM
I agree with the light recoil spring. I've seen a new Springfield GI with FTRB issues, and a heavier recoil spring fixed the problem.

I'd give that a try first...

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 02:26 AM
Any idea what the factory recoil spring weight is? I do admit, mine does seem a little weak.

-Benjamin

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 06:19 AM
I looked into the possibility of stem-bind also, and I think I may have this problem as well. I don't think it's too serious, but it may be enough to hang a round up here and there. Here's a photo of one of my bullets with alleged stem-bind marks. Should I just send this thing back to Springfield? Or perhaps some more use would break it in?

1911WB
November 24, 2006, 07:06 AM
While SA makes a really good, solid 1911 pistol, there are some issues that I have had to address with mine. The recoil spring is weak- I would replace it with a 16# Wolff. The extractors aren't the best- I like Wilson or Brown (an easy replacement). Make sure you're using a good lube- I like FP-10. Good luck solving your problem.

CalamityJane
November 24, 2006, 07:58 AM
I realize I'm talking about a different style gun, but my XD-40 has had this problem from the beginning. It's had probably several thousand rounds through it, a trip back to Springfield, different people try it (to rule out it being me not holding it stout enough), different ammo, etc....

Bottom line, it still fails to quite return to battery about once every mag. It stops about 1/8", and a quick bump with the heel of my hand fixes it, but needless to say, this is not our primary self-defense gun anymore. I love the gun, just has this little glitch that can't seem to get fixed.

Walkalong
November 24, 2006, 09:49 AM
Had a used Kimber do this. The round would almost chamber, but stick 3/4 of the way in. A slight bit of barrel throating fixed the problem. Take your barrel out of the gun and "chamber" rounds by hand from an angled position under the barrel as they would feed from the clip. If they want to hang up a little going in the top of the feed ramp just at the chamber could have to sharp of an angle on it. A SLIGHT rounding and polishing here will often make those same rounds jump into the chamber. Be real carefull, don't take much off. I use a 1/4" polished metal rod about 1 1/2" long wrapped in sandpaper chucked in a drill. 400 grit. then 600 grit, then a felt bob on a dremel and polishing compound. If you have dremel attachments that will do fine work they will work also in place of the sandpaper and finish with the felt bob. NO HEAVY GRITS! Put the barrel in a vise,(protected with wood or rubber) and carefully do this without hitting the top of your chamber. Easier than it sounds.
The barrel is a .400 Corbon untouched and feeds fine. Shoot it in an parkerized Springfield I bought in the 80's. Great Gun.

Walkalong
November 24, 2006, 10:07 AM
Here is an XD .40 SC barrel that I did. Hard to see in the pics, but gives an idea how little to take off.

bigmike45
November 24, 2006, 10:46 AM
BenjaminR,

At least pit 500-1000 rounds through the gun to break it in, then try swapping the return spring, then as Xavier Breath suggested, adjust the extractor claw, and if non of these fixex the problem, make use of the great warranty Springfield offers and send it back to them before you even consider altering the barrel.

tex

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 02:40 PM
Bigmike45,
Yeah, I'm thinking I'll give it a few hundred more rounds before I consider doing something. The top of the throat really doesn't seem sharp enough to be the cause of this kind of jam. We'll see what happens with time.

-Benjamin

Azrael256
November 24, 2006, 03:16 PM
Unless my eyes (or the photographer) deceive me, that doesn't look like a stem-bind. Flat photographs of round surfaces always throw me. Stem bind should give a crescent shaped dent a little farther down (about where the heel of the bullet is). The positon of that mark looks more like the top of the barrel ramp (not the frame ramp) is catching it, but I don't think that's actually the probem unless you can feel a big honkin' burr.

The gun should run fine with a Springfield factory spring (14#, IIRC) unless something else is broke. Ramming it home with a 20# spring might make the gun work, but "working" and "working right" aren't the same thing. My gun will "work" with a 22# spring and WWB ammo, but it'll drop casings on my right foot and beat the snot out of the gun. No good. Use a standard spring and don't go over. Underspring for extremely light target loads that don't cycle properly.

Is the case head well into extractor territory when it jams, or does it fail to get under the claw? The factory extractor on my Springfield was so dang tight that it would barely feed and wouldn't turn loose of spent casings about half the time.

Walkalong
November 24, 2006, 04:17 PM
It does take a big leap of faith to tinker with a new gun. I just did it to my new EMP and it fed hollow points like a champ today. The smart thing is to let Springfield handle it. I just can't help tinkering.

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 04:19 PM
I think it jams as the round starts to get under the extractor. The last time I shot my gun I wasn't really looking for the problem. I need to get out to the range again to see what I can figure out. In a lot of posts that I've read I shouldn't "need" to break-in the gun in theory, but it sounds like that's what some of these Springers need. So I'll probably run 500-1000 more rounds thru it before I do anything crazy.

Regards,
Benjamin

Walkalong
November 24, 2006, 04:37 PM
I went through adjusting and then replacing my extractor and it never cured the problem. Hope it cures yours.
The breechface can be rough and add to this problem. Again, Springfield will fix it if it is.
I took a high spot of my EMP breechface (.010 to .015 high) which was leaving dents in the brass head.( looked like a thin orange slice shape at the edge of the brass)
I have two Kimber CDP's that had this same problem only worse. It's the cutout above where the ejector comes thru. It wasn't cut down enough. I carefully cut them down to match the rest of the breechface and polished the whole breechface a bit. No more dents in the brass head and feed great. All three were brand new guns. Again, the smart thing is to let the manufacturer fix the problem unless you are used to fooling with these sort of things.

Azrael256
November 24, 2006, 04:43 PM
If the extractor really is too tight, you'll need to run 20,000 through it to make it work right.

Can you recreate the jam at home? If it's jamming up getting under the extractor and you can duplicate the problem by dropping the slide on a loaded mag (snap caps or dummy rounds might help here), there's an easy way to test it out. Basically, just yank off the extractor and try it again. If extractor = jam and no extractor = no jam, you'll have what Tuner likes to call a "clew." If the problem cannot be isolated to the extractor, there are still plenty of things to check out.

Magazines are something to look at, too, but if the nose is making it into the chamber and the head onto the breechface (and you're using the weaker stock spring), it seems less likely to be the culprit.

The gun should run fine out of the box and should not require any "break-in." What it often requires is ironing out some of the wrinkles. If it don't run right to the degree that it ain't runnin' right right now (yeah, say that five times fast), break-in won't do anything but frustrate you.

Walkalong
November 24, 2006, 04:54 PM
Amen to burning up rounds uselessly. It should work right out of the box unless it is a super tight semi custom gun.:banghead:

Vic
November 24, 2006, 05:06 PM
"If the extractor really is too tight, you'll need to run 20,000 through it to make it work right".

2. Replace barrel as needed.:D

robertbank
November 24, 2006, 05:12 PM
Constantly loading and unloading mags will wear the springs out. Leave the mags loaded and the springs will remain as fresh as the day you bought them. So too unloaded.

Take Care

Bob

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 06:07 PM
I will probably run a few hundred more rounds thru it to see what the failure rate is and what appears to be happening. If things persist then I'll send it to Springfield and I'll be armed with info so they won't be going into it blind.

While this is an exceedingly beautiful weapon, I am completely disappointed that it has any kind of problems. This gun is supposed to be one of the most reliable in the world...Springfield coulda fooled me.

Regards,
Benjamin

Azrael256
November 24, 2006, 06:25 PM
If you want the most reliable gun in the world out of the box, buy a glock. If you're willing to tinker a bit, and want to carry a gun with some style, you're on the right track.

When it's done right, the 1911 is every bit as reliable as the glock. It's just tricky to find a gem of a 1911 and still stay in glock's price range.

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 06:37 PM
If you want the most reliable gun in the world out of the box, buy a glock.
Don't make me do it. :rolleyes:

If you're willing to tinker a bit, and want to carry a gun with some style, you're on the right track. When it's done right, the 1911 is every bit as reliable as the glock. It's just tricky to find a gem of a 1911 and still stay in glock's price range.
I dont think the US Army would have settled for that. Why should someone defending his person or home be any different?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input...but this just isn't right.

Regards,
Benjamin

Old Fuff
November 24, 2006, 06:48 PM
While this is an exceedingly beautiful weapon, I am completely disappointed that it has any kind of problems. This gun is supposed to be one of the most reliable in the world...Springfield coulda fooled me.

Having owned, worked on, and fired 1911 platform pistols for well over a half century, I can assure you that the pistols which made the original gun's fine reputation, and the ones being made today are not the same. They just sort of look like it.

During the years of my youth people bought Colt's, took them out of the box, loaded the magazine, and went their way. Functional problems were few and far between. No one had ever heard of such a thing as a "breaking in period," and if anyone had told them any such thing was necessary they would have been very upset. It is regretable that too many of today's buyers have to discover the fact's of life after, and not before they make a purchase.

This is not to say that a current "Springer" can't be made to run. Our own "1911Tuner" took one, made a few minor modifications and adjustments, and then put it through a multi-thousand rounds torture test without a bobble. Trouble is, the factory doesn't put them together that way...

Azrael256
November 24, 2006, 07:01 PM
I dont think the US Army would have settled for that. Why should someone defending his person or home be any different? Tell that to Springfield and maybe they'll listen. I'm done with production guns altogether. Springfield's move to MIM hammers did it for me. It's Caspian, EGW, and Kart from here on... which also means I won't have another 1911 until I learn a good bit more.

I don't expect anyone to like it, lord knows I don't, but for the moment we're stuck with lowest-bidder, highest profit margin guns in a whole host of different patterns. For some reason that I can't understand, the market degraded to the point that "quality control" means barrel proofing and nothing else.

No, it isn't right.

Old Fuff
November 24, 2006, 07:40 PM
This is not to say that a current "Springer" can't be made to run. Our own "1911Tuner" took one, made a few minor modifications and adjustments, and then put it through a multi-thousand rounds torture test without a bobble. Trouble is, the factory doesn't put them together that way...


Read the links and learn..... :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=80649&highlight=torture+test

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=81244&highlight=torture+test

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=80120&highlight=torture+test

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=81444&highlight=torture+test

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=82503&highlight=torture+test

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=92635&highlight=torture+test

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 08:52 PM
Please pardon my newbieness but what is MIM & Investment Casting? How are these inferior to other manufacturing techniques?

Regards,
Benjamin

Old Fuff
November 24, 2006, 09:31 PM
Please pardon my newbieness but what is MIM & Investment Casting? How are these inferior to other manufacturing techniques?

Ya can find out ANYTHING on this forum... :)

Follow the link: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=236285

The original Colt's and USGI guns had extractors made out of spring-tempered/high carbon steel. To save money Springfield Armory uses MIM (metal injected molded) technology to make their extractors.

But MIM parts can't be spring tempered. :mad:

Other MIM parts in their pistol may, or may not be alright. I just don't want too do their Beta testing.:scrutiny:

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 10:12 PM
Does anybody know of any online stores that sell hi-quality 1911 parts? Sooner or later I'm probably going to need to buy something...I might as well start looking around now.

Regards,
Benjamin

daysleeprx
November 24, 2006, 10:34 PM
www.brownells.com

One stop shopping.

BenjaminR
November 24, 2006, 11:19 PM
Not that I'm going to buy one before I send my gun back, but which aftermarket extractors work best with the Springer GI 1911? Series 70, series 80? Brownells? Wilson Combat? Nowlin? Ed Brown?

Regards,
Benjamin

Old Fuff
November 24, 2006, 11:25 PM
P.M. 1911Tuner for the latest lowdown. Some of these products change on a daily basis... :uhoh:

Black Majik
November 25, 2006, 02:48 PM
Benjamin,

You're thinking way too far ahead now. Just concentrate on items you need to fix/replace to get your gun working reliably. Have you bought a heavier recoil spring yet? Try that first before trying to replace extractors and extra miscellaneous parts. I seriously think your recoil spring is too light since I've seen this problem on another GI 1911.

If it doesn't fix it, you can then go to the next part until you do find a solution. Replacing all the parts all at once and you'll never find out what was the exact problem.

Good luck to you.

BenjaminR
November 25, 2006, 05:00 PM
I realize I'm a thinking a little ahead of where I'm at, but I just wanted to start exploring my options. At this point, and I said this in previous posts, I'm going to run a few hundred more rounds thru the gun and if it's not showing any signs of getting better I will send it to Springfield. I don't want to void the waranty on the thing...just yet. After looking at and feeling the top of the throat on the barrel, I'm having doubts it's a stem-bind. Perhaps it is the extractor and/or a rough breach face. But that's why I want to shoot it some more, so I can try to see exactly where it's hanging up. The type of jam has always been the same. It's never had a failure to eject, never stovepiped, never anything else...just a FTRTB about 1 in 30.

I'm not sure if I want to change out the recoil spring just yet. I recall reading somewhere on here that a stronger recoil spring is just a band-aid on the problem, not a real fix.

Regards,
Benjamin

Walkalong
November 25, 2006, 05:14 PM
ISMI for springs. I think they are the best.
Of course any name brand, Wolf etc. will fix it if it is a spring problem.
http://www.ismi-gunsprings.com/

Old Fuff
November 25, 2006, 05:48 PM
I'm not sure if I want to change out the recoil spring just yet. I recall reading somewhere on here that a stronger recoil spring is just a band-aid on the problem, not a real fix.

Often true... and a recoil spring that is too heavy can ultimately damage the gun. Folks forget that if the heavy spring slows the slide going back it will also cause it to move faster going forward... :scrutiny:

In an extreme case it can cause the slide stop pin to elongate the hole in the frame, and ruin it.

There are better ways... :)

Walkalong
November 25, 2006, 06:02 PM
Don't get a stronger one, just get a quality new one. A cheap try.

18 1/2 lb. for full loads in a 5" steel gun. Original mil. spec.
Seems 16 lb. is factory standard these days.

Anybody have better info on spring wieghts?

BenjaminR
November 25, 2006, 06:56 PM
18 1/2 lb. for full loads in a 5" steel gun. Original mil. spec.
Seems 16 lb. is factory standard these days.

Is a Springer GI considered a "steel gun"? I might consider getting a 18lb spring in the future...as long as it's not likely to cause any damage to the gun.

-Benjamin

WarMachine
November 25, 2006, 07:29 PM
The Springfield GI has a steel frame and slide, so yes.

If you enjoyed reading about "Springfield GI45 - Failure to Return to Battery" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!