Wollff ammo? whats the consensus?


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David S
May 22, 2003, 02:09 PM
whats the general opinion on Wolff ammo?
Centerfire has a case of 1000 for sale for a very good price
we are talking 115gr 9mm para.......

its steel cased , is that bad?
it SAYS non corrosive primers, but are they?
how dirty is it?

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Andrew Wyatt
May 22, 2003, 02:16 PM
yes, it's non corrosive. it's not particularly dirty. steel cased won't hurt your pistol.

Wildalaska
May 22, 2003, 02:16 PM
Junk, be careful. Penny wise pound foolish.

arinvolvo
May 22, 2003, 02:21 PM
David...my thoughts on wolf ammo.....go to walmart, and get the winchester stuff for $9.97 per 100.

davidtdm
May 22, 2003, 02:23 PM
I've only used Wolf for my AK and Nagant. It's cheap, but it is Dirty. So far very reliable. My guess the same would apply for handguns also.

Just my $.02,

Dave

Bravo11
May 22, 2003, 02:30 PM
Wolf ammo feeds OK for me but seems to leave residue.
I don't like that laquer finish.
I've heard that steel casings can be rough on extractors but I don't know. I don't reload so I don't need the brass so CCI Blazers work great for me and about the same price as Wolf.

Pocket Pistol
May 22, 2003, 02:30 PM
Only tried the 380 wolf in my NAA 380.
It did not like my gun much.
It did pack a good punch, and noticeably hotter then other 380 ammo I had shot

cordex
May 22, 2003, 02:38 PM
Never tried the 9mm stuff.
Burned a little .45ACP, though. It worked, but I didn't much care for it.
I use Wolf 7.62x39 exclusively in my SKS.

12 Volt Man
May 22, 2003, 02:47 PM
I feel that Wolf is great in Russian or Russian Type guns. Makarovs, AKs, Nagants etc........ This ammo was designed for those guns. I have shot many many rounds of Wolf through my AK and only a few through my MAK (only had it a couple weeks). It is less expensive which is a plus. Many people complain about the laquer that is on the cartridge. From what I have learned, this is not an issue unless you go full auto for a long time. My main concern in using this ammo would be wear on the extractor. When the shot is fired, a brass case seems to have more "elasticity" (for lack of a better word). This means it returns closer to it's original diameter, making it easier to extract the spent case. The steel case tends to expand out in the chamber when fired and then remain that size, making it more difficult to remove the spent case. Many people think that over time, this causes excess wear on the extractor.
Since you are talking specifically about 9mm, I would stick with the Winchester Value Packs from Wal Mart.

fatboyclone
May 22, 2003, 02:57 PM
Wolf ammo is pure crap.

Dorrin79
May 22, 2003, 03:02 PM
I have shot a fair amount of Wolf 7.62x39 ammo through my SKS.

No problems, and it's fairly accurate.

As long as Winchester White Box is available at $10/100, I can't see any reason to shoot it through a 9mm.

444
May 22, 2003, 03:24 PM
Well how much is the ammo you are looking at ? I need some.

This subject has been covered at least a thousand times in the last couple hours on the internet gun forums. For the most part, people parrot what they read on the last thread about the same subject. But, let me add my two cents just like I do every time. I have shot Wolf ammo in 9mm Mak, 7.62x54, 7.62x39, and .223 Rem. In .223 Rem I have fired over four thousand rounds out of my various AR15s. My actual experience is that it is reliable, accurate ammo at half the price of any thing else I can get (in .223). I have fired it extensively and I have fired it for groups on paper at 200 yards. I have fired it at reactive targets at 400 yards. I have used it in a four day formal shooting class. I have not had any issues with extractors, I have not had any issues with laquer, I have fired it out of all nine of my ARs, I have fired it out of several different handguns, I have fired it out of a number of different rifles in 7.62x54. My conclusion at the end of all this actually testing of the ammo is that the vast majority of what I have read on the internet is BS pure and simple.

I want to get a few cases of Wolf in 9mm to run thorugh my Sten. Let me know the details of what you are looking at.

10-Ring
May 22, 2003, 04:10 PM
STAY AWAY FROM WOLF AMMO!

bountyhunter
May 22, 2003, 04:16 PM
Only shoot it in the guns designed for it: Russian, baltic, and Chinese junkers that are loose enough to tolerate the garbage buildup in the barrel throat.

denfoote
May 22, 2003, 05:12 PM
Commie ammo for Commie guns!! My Maks love it!! My SKS loves it!! The only other guns that I have that love the stuff are my Rugers: P97 and P95!!!

meathammer
May 22, 2003, 05:47 PM
Wolf = Excrement

seeker_two
May 22, 2003, 05:52 PM
Decent ammo, but awfully dirty. Some people have had problems w/ the lacquer coating & extraction, but I haven't seen it first-hand. My 1911 doesn't like it.

A better choice would be S&B, PMC, Magtech, or Winchester White Box...

Bowlcut
May 22, 2003, 09:54 PM
Havent ever shot any pistol rounds of it. But 7.62x54r in my Mosin-Nagant....probaly around 60 rounds now. It isnt all that dirty IMHO....Alabama Ammo in my .40 now thats dirty. But like most say.....Russian arms Id have no problem shooting it in. I probaly wont ever shoot it in my .40 but thats just personal opinion. Plus Winchester White Box isnt all that expensive anyway. Or just wait till the next months gun show rolls around and stock up cheap then

George Hill
May 22, 2003, 10:47 PM
Sure, it's fine...







Just don't shoot it in a gun you like.

cool45auto
May 22, 2003, 11:00 PM
I shoot it in my P97DC and my SKS. I haven't had a problem with either.

Tropical Z
May 23, 2003, 02:29 AM
Wolf ammo is fine.If my Hi-Point can digest it without disintegrating as so many would have you believe,then any gun should be able to use it successfully.That is unless my Hi-Point is somehow superior to guns that choke on the stuff.Dont believe all the lacquer B.S.either-thats all it is.BBBBBB.SSSSSSSSSS.!!!!!

Tamara
May 23, 2003, 02:38 AM
Cheap to shoot; main downsides are that it's dirty (even dirtier than MagTech) and guns with match chambers may not like it.

gudel
May 23, 2003, 02:46 AM
yeah tropical z has a point there. i ordered some wolf for my brand new xd40. let see what happens.
i also noticed some members reported success with their ruger. i do have a ruger, maybe i'll try it too :)

i find it unusual for the remark: commie ammo... for commie guns.
anyone married to people from communist countries? i suppose they're for commies as well.

Ky Larry
May 23, 2003, 09:41 AM
My AK eats 7.62x39 Wolf ammo with no problems. My CZ 75B has no problems with it. Accuracy is so-so. No problems with laquer build up. I tried shooting a Wolf .223 steel case in my T/C Contender. The case wouldn't extract .Had a heck of a time getting the case out.

WhoKnowsWho
May 23, 2003, 09:53 AM
Wolf for my SKS? Sure.

Wolf for my Makarov? Sure.

Wolf for everything else, I'll pass.

mephisto
May 23, 2003, 11:41 AM
Lets put iy this way. New gun, 1st clip, 2 stove pipes, heart fluters. 2nd clip 1 fte, 1 stove pipe, im going to cry. 3rd clip to today (350 rounds) not a problem. What happened, I took the box of wolf, after 2 clips, gave it to my friend, with a ruger, and NEVER used it again. The cheap stuff at Wal-Mart, the stuff that is $9 for 100 rounds, never had a problem.

Nightcrawler
May 23, 2003, 12:31 PM
I put a box of it through my CZ-97. I've had stove pipes with Blazer, but not with Wolf. (A stovepipe is when the ejecting case gets caught in the forward moving slide, right?) It was a little dirty, but no worse than Blazer. (Blazer .45 Colt for example is REALLY dirty, in addition to having inconsistent velocity.)

arinvolvo
May 23, 2003, 02:01 PM
A stovepipe is like you desribed....makes your gun look like it has a chimney.

rock jock
May 23, 2003, 02:26 PM
Its great for AK's. I wouldn't put it through any other gun, though.

arinvolvo
May 23, 2003, 03:39 PM
Brother feeds his AR Wolf stuff exclusively. Works real well.

Minute_Of_Torso
May 24, 2003, 12:55 AM
I have to agree with most of the statements here: seems very reliable, reasonably accurate, great price. I have fired several thousand rounds of both .45 and 9mm and I haven't had a bit of trouble. I didn't even think it was noticeably dirtier than any other lower-priced plinking ammo. I've put Wolf through a Ruger P97DC, Ruger P95, SA MilSpec 1911A1, Beretta 92FS, KelTec P11, S&W Sigma SW9VE, and a Charles Daly 1911 clone. I haven't noticed any abnormal wear and tear or problems with the steel case or the lacquer.


But I would still recommend using the Walmart 100 rds "white box" for about $11.00 for plinking and practice. For some reason I just feel more comfortable with the manufacturing processes and QA of Winchester than I do with the Russian ammo. I have ALOT of Wolf ammo in storage, all sealed and untouched, and it will remain in storage until it is needed for some extreme situation.

curt
May 24, 2003, 01:13 PM
There is none, that's about as close to a consensus as you'll get :D

oweno
May 24, 2003, 06:38 PM
Ran a couple of hundred rounds through my Bulgarian Makarov - worked like a charm and seemed to be a pretty hot round. Nor cleaner nor dirtier than any other ammo...

Walt Sherrill
May 24, 2003, 09:29 PM
I think its great ammo for guns designed to use it.

For guns with tight chambers, its can be a problem.

As the barrel heats up, the lacquer coating can start to coat the chamber. As it cools it GRIPS the spent casing, making it hard to extract. I don't know if that, coupled to the steel case, makes it hard on extractors, but it can be.

If your gun has a loose chamber (as in Glocks), you're not likely to experience a problem.

I have personnaly seen it jam up guns badly, and I've seen guys have to drive the spent casing out of the chamber with a wooden dowel... Most of this can be improved or avoided -- in tight chambered guns -- by frequent, through cleaning.

I don't use it and won't use -- when I can buy CCI Blazer in bulk for less than $5 a box in 9mm and under $8 in .40 and .45...

JeepDriver
May 24, 2003, 09:58 PM
Russian guns use Russian ammo.

I have shot a couple thousand rounds of 7.62x39 through my SAR 1 w/o a problem.

But my 9mm's get S&B or Winchester atleast. The price difference between Wolf and brass cased ammo is so small I stick with the brass cased stuff

PlumberjimC
May 24, 2003, 10:14 PM
Match Target .22 is great stuff. None of my .45s liked it -- Kimbers, Sig, S&W (cruddy and smelly). I watch the local stores for deals on Winchester white box.

michiganfan
May 26, 2003, 03:58 PM
I use it in both my Saigas, .223 and 7.62.
Seems to work fine. I figure Russian guns get Russian ammo.

sig970
May 26, 2003, 04:16 PM
I've run 500 rounds through my Kimber, 500 rounds through my Beretta 96 Border Marshal, and over 2000 rounds through my Sig P239 9mm

Three completely different guns, in three different calibers. Only 2 hiccups in 3000 rounds.

What does that say about Wolf???

Sure I also hit Walmart for the sales, but hell, it's proven to me that it works.

Sure it's as dirty as anything else, but which one of you doesn't clean your gun after use?

1911Tuner
May 26, 2003, 04:39 PM
Personally, I avoid the stuff like it had cooties.

Just my nickel's worth...

Tuner

Safety First
May 26, 2003, 06:56 PM
David, go to Wal-mart and pickup the Winchester USA in the white box 9mm for 10.97 box of 50..cheap,accurate,reliable...don't take chances...

dairycreek
May 26, 2003, 07:36 PM
very, very dirty. I won't use it or recommend it. Good shooting;)

Stainless Steel
May 26, 2003, 10:18 PM
David S:

NO other ammunition manufacturer gets so many
negative responses from people (except for A-
merc from Florida). THIS SHOULD BE A BIG RED
FLAG TO YOU!

Something is wrong here. Very, very wrong!

Stainless.

http://home.mindspring.com/~colt45acp/nra1.gif

556A2
May 26, 2003, 11:24 PM
I'll use it in my Commie guns. My SKS loved it before I sold it. I haven't tried the 5.45x39mm in my AK yet or the 7.62x54R in my Mosin. But as far as in my CZ-75B I won't since I can get CCI Blazer for about the same price.

1911Tuner
May 27, 2003, 05:10 AM
Amen to that! I won't even use A-Merc brass for reloading.
If I find some brass that somebody didn't pick up, I look
through it for the evil stuff and toss any I find. Awful .

Tuner

cordex
May 27, 2003, 09:54 AM
NO other ammunition manufacturer gets so many
negative responses from people (except for A-
merc from Florida). THIS SHOULD BE A BIG RED
FLAG TO YOU!

Something is wrong here. Very, very wrong!
See ... the funny thing is that there are a whole bunch of "Don't use Wolf!" and "Wolf will blow up your gun!" and "Wolf is EEEEEEVIL" but very few people can actually explain why.
When asked, most seem to start talking about destroying extractors, gumming up chambers and what-have-you. Most are stories heard on the 'net, and if you read it on the 'net it has to be true ... right?

Fun experiment:
Buy one (1) box of Wolf in your favorite caliber.
Shoot one (1) cartridge.
Take spent casing home.
Throw remainder of the box in the Local Deep Body of Water Used For Disposal of Dangerous Stuff. Ask a local witch to cast hexes to make sure the eeeeeevil stuff doesn't climb out and gum up your guns.
Using vise-grips and a blowtorch, heat casing until it glows.
Using a flathead screwdriver, scrape at the casing.

Questions:
Does the laquer melt off?
Does the laquer come off when you scrape at it?
Does your gun heat the case up enough to glow, or have sharp edges to scrape at the laquer like you did with the screwdriver?

If your gun's chamber is rough enough to scrape off laquer from the casing, you have deeper problems than not being able to use Wolf ammo.

Personally, I'd rather use handloads in my .45 and mil-surp in my .223, but I believe a lot of the "Wolf ammunition will rape your horses and ride off on your women!" comments are simply repeating what is heard, not eyewitness accounts of the atrocities Wolf commits.

444
May 27, 2003, 10:41 AM
Cordex, I have said basically the same thing in countless threads on this subject. You sift through all the posts and come out with a few that mention that they have actually fired the ammo. Some have fired the ammo and had problems; most have fired the ammo and it worked fine. The vast majority of the posts are one sentence replies that have no information to back up their post. I tried to name the calibers I have used it in, and approx. how many rounds I have fired along with the results. However, if the result isn't what you want to hear, you just ignore the facts and move on to the speculation.

A good friend of mine did that same test you mention. He took a piece of Wolf .223 brass and heated it with a torch until it glowed. He then tried to scrape the laquer off with a screwdriver. He couldn't do it. But, if that isn't what you want to hear, you won't listen.

Stainless Steel
May 27, 2003, 11:53 AM
There are countless threads like this about
Wolf ammunition. For some reason they ALWAYS
turn into a flame war. When someone reports a
problem, there are always people who act like
religious zealots and get very emotional that
a problem was posted.

Funny how I have never seen a single similar
thread about any other ammunition manufacturer
(except for A-merc). Hhhhmmmmm... Could it be
that people aren't having problems with the
other manufactures?

The people who are trying to decide if they
should buy Wolf or not will have to decide
for themselves. If you decide to ignore the
warnings about the squib loads and such, you
can't say you weren't warned.

Stainless.


http://home.mindspring.com/~colt45acp/nra1.gif

matsaleh
May 27, 2003, 12:47 PM
I use Wolf in my Mak - no problems so far. I would try it in my S&W 6906, but haven't yet.

Funny how the most well-thought out and articulated replies seem to be from folks who have actually experimented with the ammo, or use it regularly.

The anti-Wolf responses seem to mostly be the one-liners and other emotionally charged statements.

I'd be interested in hearing some anti-Wolf analysis that is based on actual experience: what happened, why, etc.

I'm not interested in religious wars. I'll save that for the Wahabists.

444
May 27, 2003, 01:57 PM
I have seen guns malfunction using Wolf ammo. I have no explanation for it. As I said, it runs great in my rifles. And this was not a small sample set, again, as I mentioned I have fired over 4000 rounds of it though various AR15s but primarily through one. I have never had the slightest bobble. I recently took a four day rifle course where I fired 500 rounds of Wolf during the course. I fired out to 400 yards with it against steel, and out to 200 on paper. I fired a group from prone that was something like 5 inches at 200 yards from a 16" barreled AR15 using a Aimpoint optical sight (no magnification and a 4 minute dot). I used Wolf ammo to fire the high score during the shoot-off with no one else even close to my score. During the same course, someone else ran out of ammo and bought some Wolf to finish the last day of the class. She couldn't fire more than one or two rounds without a stoppage. Prior to this event, I always blamed malfunctions on people using a rifle that had a .223 chamber and non-chrome lined bore; but, this person was using a Bushmaster rifle so this wasn't an issue. So, now I have to question how well this person maintained their rifle. Did they keep the chamber clean ? Who knows ?
In summary, the ammo isn't junk. It is reliable and accurate in my guns, and has proven to be with a fairly decent array of guns over a fairly significant number of rounds fired. I haven't found it to be "dirty" and I have fired 500 rounds of it in a day's time. However, you may have problems. This doesn't make it junk. In 9mm, the difference in price may not be significant; I normally don't buy factory ammo in 9mm so I can't comment on that. But, I do know that in .223 it is significantly cheaper; like $50/case cheaper. For me, this amounts to quite a bit of money since I have been going though somewhere between 5k-10k per year. I will continue to use it; in fact I have two and a half cases of it right now. I would like to try the 9mm in my submachine gun. I have talked to other people who use it in their machine guns and say it runs great. Trying to pick up brass from a subgun is a PITA; I would much prefer steel cased "fire and forget" ammo for that application.

cratz2
May 27, 2003, 05:03 PM
Wolf for my SKS? Sure.

Wolf for my Makarov? Sure.

Wolf for everything else, I'll pass.
Exactly! :p

Stainless Steel
May 27, 2003, 05:47 PM
During the same course, someone
else ran out of ammo and bought some Wolf to
finish the last day of the class. She
couldn't fire more than one or two rounds
without a stoppage.

"There's three kinds of people. Them that
learn by readin'... Them that learn by
watchin' and doin'...and then there's them
that's gotta piss on the electric fence for
themselves."

-Will Rogers-

http://home.mindspring.com/~colt45acp/nra1.gif

Andrew Wyatt
May 27, 2003, 06:26 PM
Stainless Steel: nice job seizing upon the part of 444's post that stresses that each firearm is a law unto itself, while completely ignoring the other parts about wolf ammo not being horrible devil ammo, while contributing nothing new to the conversation.



I'm going to go out and buy 400-500 rounds of wolf in .45 ACP and shoot it in my 1911. if it has an ammunition related choke, breaks an extractor, my horses are stolen or my house burned i'll pony up the price of three boxes of remington golden saber.

Ky Larry
May 27, 2003, 06:34 PM
Last weekend a couple of pals and I decided to do a completely unscientific test of Wolf ammo. We bought 2 cases of Wolf ammo(2000 rounds) and shot it up. The pistols used were a CZ 75 BD, a Hi-Power, and a Beretta 92. All 2000 rounds were fired without a single problem. Accuracy was fair but none of us can be cosidered expert marksmen. The pistols were no dirtier or harder to clean than with other ammo. I don't know if we proved anything but we had a good time.I'll use Wolf for fun and Hydra-Shoks for social work.

cordex
May 27, 2003, 07:05 PM
Funny how I have never seen a single similar
thread about any other ammunition manufacturer
(except for A-merc). Hhhhmmmmm... Could it be
that people aren't having problems with the
other manufactures?
Could be ...
But ... now hold on here ... what about the threads I see from time to time about squib loads with big, commercial manufacturers like Remington, Winchester and Federal? I've heard tell of reversed primers, warped cases, blown up guns ... all kinds of stuff. With reputable, factory ammo. Rare, but it happens. Seem to remember a thread on TFL bringing up a bunch of 'em. Most posters seemed content to send the box of ammo back and have it replaced.
So why the wild eyed fury on both sides of Wolf? *shrug* You got me.
When someone reports a
problem, there are always people who act like
religious zealots and get very emotional that
a problem was posted.
Aye, there be zealotry here ... not sure it's all where you think it is, though.

I'm very open minded about Wolf. If there are legitimate problems with it, I think they should be discussed. My problem is that whenever Wolf comes up, there's always the same kind of "Wolf baaaaad." rather then logical debate about real problems with it (dirty, odd smelling, smokey ... er ...).

As I said, I personally don't like the stuff in .45, and prefer other ammo in .223 but I've not seen it do any of the horrible things that some claim it does.

Brad Johnson
May 27, 2003, 07:36 PM
Here we go again.... :rolleyes:

Wolf Mythbusting

Myth #1 - Wolf ammo will wear out your extractor because of the steel case.

No. It won't. The cases are coated with laquer and it's this laquer, not the case itself, that comes into contact with your gun's innards. The laquer is nice and soft so there is little chance of the steel "wearing out" anything.

Myth #2 - Wolf ammo is dirty.

All ammo is dirty. Wolf does leave a lot of residue, but no more so than W231, Bulls Eye, or Unique. If you clean your guns regularly (and you do, right?) it is no worse than some other commercial ammunition.

Myth #3 - Wolf ammo will gum up your gun because the laquer will come off in the chamber.

Possible, but not likely. Unless you are one of those gun owners who subscribes to the "I don't clean it till it jams" theory of gun care it's unlikely that you will ever have a problem. On several occasions I've fired 500+ rounds of Wolf 9mm through my XD with no functional problems. You could see some laquer residue starting to build up, but a quick swipe with a patch soaked in Hoppes #9 wiped it right off.

Conclusion

Wolf ammo is not some mystery gun-destroyer. It's just another inexpensive brand of ammo that has gotten a bad rap due to a lot of misperception combined with a generous dose of misinformation, supposition, and uninformed hype. While it's true that guns with "tight" chamber dimensions tend to be finicky when it comes to Wolf ammo, most guns will digest it just fine.

Will it work in your gun? Well.. buy a couple of boxes and try it. If you don't have any problems, buy a boatload of it and blast away.

Brad

Shweboner
May 27, 2003, 08:16 PM
Man this wolf ammo discussion is getting as popular as the Glock v. XD or 9mm v. 45 ones.

I have never had any problems with wolf. in my ak, its never had one problem after 3000 rounds, only cleaned every 1k rounds.
SKS=no trouble
the same with:
Makarov
Tanfoglio .380
Marlin 25N, Ruger 10-22
Springfield XD, Hipoint carbine, Glock 17
Mossy 500, Rem. 870 (12)
Mosin-Nagant
and probably a few more I cant recall right now......

If you dont like the laquer, try the Silver Bear stuff, its basically wolf (same price too) but with a Zinc plated Case and no laquer. I have yet to have any problems with that so far (7.62x39 only) but it comes in all the same calibers as Wolf does.
If it came down to it, I would trust my life to the stuff in any of my guns.

~Brian

1911Tuner
May 28, 2003, 05:46 AM
Besides the laquer getting soft when the gun gets hot, the
other thing that I've noticed about Wolf is the variance in
bullet diameter. Lot to lot variation can run as high as
.0015 inch...This can make a real difference in some guns,
all the way to failing to return to battery and having the
bullet pull out of the case and stay in the chamber leade
when you finally muscle the slide open.

So...Caveat Emptor:)

Tuner

Stainless Steel
May 28, 2003, 05:51 PM
I don't understand why people get so
hysterical about Wolf ammunition when someone
reports a problem. This is really puzzling to
me as an engineer.

This is a subject that has been addressed so
many times on the internet that there is a
large database of reported problems. Ignore
the obvious one liners and the parroting.
There are plenty of valid personal
experiences posted on the many forums out
there.

Referring to the posts from people reporting
their personal experience, the fact is that
there are more problems reported about Wolf
ammunition than all of the other brands
combined. At the same time, their market
share is very small compared to all of the
other brands combined. The hysterical zealots
have failed to address this STATISTICAL fact.

For those of you who are wondering if it is
safe to buy and shoot Wolf ammunition: The
STATISTICAL fact is, Wolf is the most
dangerous and unreliable ammunition out
there. THEY ARE WAY BEHIND THE INDUSTRY
STANDARD IN QUALITY AND SAFETY.

The scientific community demands more than: I
haven't had any problems, therefore there
isn't a problem! Is this the best that you can
do? The scientific community laughs at such
an argument. Your position is indefensible.
The statistics have proven you wrong! People
who defend Wolf have a real credibility
problem here.

The fact that you haven't had a problem is
STATISTICALLY meaningless! It is the high
percentage of people who have reported
problems compared to all other brands that is
STATISTICALLY relevant.

Again, what other argument do you have other
than, I haven't had any problems, therefore
there isn't a problem!

Suggest you take some engineering and
STATISTICAL classes.

The following is just the tip of the iceberg
of posts reporting problems with Wolf
ammunition.

Stainless.



Originally posted by hipowr

I presume you mean the Wolf. The stuff is
generally dirty, kinda hot, and sometimes on
the larger side. The only factory squib I've
ever seen in person was with Wolf ammo. It
lodged a slug right in the throat of a brand
new HK USP 40 compact. I generally don't
recommend it.

later, AJ

Originally posted by llahsram4

I can shoot Wolf .223 in my mini-14 all
day, no problem. But it absolutely will not
feed through my Springfield Ultra Compact.
One shot and done. :mad:

Originally posted by Archer

My shooting partner at Gunsite was a
county constable whose county issued him a
case of Wolf for the class.

He shot it with a previously reliable
Springfield 1911 Loaded model- not a
particularly tight pistol.

Suffice it to say, he got more practice on
malfunction clearances than any other student
there that week.

He had much better results later in the week
with PMC from the pro shop.

Originally posted by Grey

The indoor range I went to yesterday does
not allow Wolf. They said they had a 11/2
hour hang fire at one of ther other ranges,
and some case separation. Bummer because I
bought 500 rds of wolf and wanted to test it
myself.

Originally posted by Preacher

I watched a guy with a tuned a ported Gold
Cup have massive problems with Wolf today.

On 3 different stages (IPSC Match) the cases
were oversized, causing them to jam in the
breach and the extractor to snap back over
the rim, leaving the case in the chamber and
jamming a second round up into the first.

He was a great shot, had a good gun, but
chose shi**y ammo.

I had the same problem with one round of Wolf
in my Springfield and I can't even get them
to chamber in my Glock. After trying Wolf, I
switched to S&B for a while, then went to
custom hand loads. (Even cheaper than Wolf.)


Originally posted by Manevitch

Let's not forget the other problem with
Wolf ammo - it smells. No, I mean it REALLY
smells. The stuff reeks. The indoor range I
go to won't allow Wolf for that reason alone.


Originally posted by llahsram4

I've run .40 Wolf through my Kimber with
no problems at all so I bought 250 rounds of
.45 Wolf at our last gun show. It absolutely
will not feed through my Springfield Ultra
Compact. One shot and done (stove pipe). I've
tried a lot of other ammo in this gun and
this is the first time I've had problems. The
lacquer coating seems pretty thick on this
batch. I thought about trying to remove the
coating to see if it would feed. Any
suggestions?

Originally posted by Albert Shear


Just went to my favorite local gun shop to
by a Les Baer TRS and noticed a new large
sign "do not use Wolf ammo in Glocks". I
asked and the clerk said they returned 4
Glocks for customers that KB'd with Wolf.


Originally posted by mikescooling


Glock puts wolf only wolf on the do not
use list.

Originally posted by Pluskat

200 rds of Wolf pounded the edge of my
ejector into a nub on my Springfield mil-
spec, so....S&B in the 1911, Wolf in the AK.


Originally posted by usp45acp

I had 4 boxes of wolf ammo and, at the
request of Wolf ammo, returned all of the
empties and two half boxes to them for a full
refund. I had split cases, FTE, and FTF.
this was all 45ACP in a HK USP. I did find
that if I do not heat the gun up, IE let it
cool between mags, I do not get the FTE but
I had 3 Split cases. My USP had less than
500 rnds thru it before I tried this crap
with no problems. I checked the chamber and
it is right for a 45ACP so the problem lies
in the steel case ammo.

I have only heard of one other problem and
that was rapid firing a colt ar-15 at the
local range. One round was not loaded
properly. It went halfway down the barrel
and a couple more followed it. not a
pleasant surprise. I will stick to the CCI
Blazers and my reloads just to be safe. and
to protect my valuable collection.


Originally posted by bountyhunter


DCMorris: I have never lectured anybody
on anything, and BTW my degrees are in
Mechanical Engineering, Electrical
Engineering and Education.

The internet provides all readers access to a
huge number of data points, and one thing I
KNOW with absolute certainty is that many
people who use Wolf ammo will have a problem.
That is based on not just reports of problems
but the fact that most US guns are not
designed to cycle steel case ammo.

The fact that Olympic Arms (a maker of AR-15
rifles) has specifically listed Wolf ammo BY
NAME on their home page along with a warning
that using it voids the warranty on their
guns indicates to me there is a serious
problem using this ammo in some guns.


Originally posted by REDDAWN

My wife bought me two cases of Wolf 223
for Christmas. I shot less than 20 rounds,
And gave the rest away. I had to use a
cleaning rod to pop the cases out of the gun.
NO MORE WOLF :barf:

Originally posted by slapshot2

My cousin had some Wolf 45 that in EAA
Witness you had to pull the trigger twice to
get some the rounds to go off.

Originally posted by phil_a_steen


Wolf is bad beyond all word. Four hours
to clean the red lacquer out of my
Paraordinance. Never again.

http://home.mindspring.com/~colt45acp/nra1.gif

Minute_Of_Torso
May 28, 2003, 06:19 PM
STAND BACK, BOYS, HE'S GOT A SLIDERULE!!!!


You fail to convince me, Stainless, and I am also an engineer. Unverifiable forum posts from the internet do little to override my own personal, objective, first-hand experience with Wolf. (If I believed everything I read I'd sell my Glocks because they blow up, my 1911's because they're junk out of the box, and my Rugers because an inexpensive gun can't be worth a darn). To base your final conclusion that Wolf is the most dangerous ammunition on the market is, well, pretty weak based upon nameless, faceless witnesses that have unverifiable stories. As you said yourself, the scientific community demands more . . . I would add that it demands more than anecdotal evidence.

Before you build up a straw man and then tear it down:

1. IMHO, is Wolf the best ammo on the market? No.
2. Do I use Wolf exclusively? No.
3. Have I shot more Wolf than any other brand? No.
4. Would I recommend it for every conceivable firearm or every conceivable situation? No.
5. Would I recommend it to be TRIED? Yes.
6. Do I completely trust Russian manufacturing and QA processes? No.


IF you provide us here at this forum with objective testing results from verifiable sources, then it would lend great weight to your argument. As an engineer you should understand that first and foremost you must provide the calculations to prove your conclusions are correct. The answer to, "Will that bridge design hold all the necessary loading?" is not, "Well this guy on the internet said he had a bridge just like it and it fell down."

gudel
May 28, 2003, 06:31 PM
i'll be getting a .40S&W Wolf to be tested on my brand spankin new XD40. i think i will try it out and see what happens. their prices are somewhat lower, if it works with my guns, i'll use it exclusively.

Stainless Steel
May 28, 2003, 06:41 PM
Minute_Of_Torso:

As an engineer, you are held to a higher
standard and MUST explain why there are more
problem posts from the 'average user' about
Wolf than all other brands combined.

The lack of complaints to all other brands
combined is conspicuous by its absence!

You as an engineer MUST submit to your
engineering piers why you do not feel this is
a problem. Please submit this for pier
review. Your colleagues are waiting.

As an engineer you know that the burden is
not on me to explain why some people are not
having problems. The burden is on you to
explain this statistical phenomenon.

Stainless.

http://home.mindspring.com/~colt45acp/nra1.gif

Minute_Of_Torso
May 28, 2003, 07:22 PM
Please understand that in any and all of this reply, I mean no disrespect whatsoever.

Quote:
As an engineer, you are held to a higher
standard and MUST explain why there are more
problem posts from the 'average user' about
Wolf than all other brands combined.

Reply:
Your education level means very little when it comes to the vast majority of the issues discussed on this forum. Besides, you and I both know that engineers are a dime a dozen and most of them couldn't "think" their way out of a paper bag. As a matter of fact, being a veteran, some of the least educated people I've ever met deserve my unreserved awe and respect because of their experience. Furthermore, the standards I'm held to have very little to do with internet forums. AND you never did provide a response as to the veracity of the "problem posts." What other factors affected performance? Do they maintain their firearms properly? Etc. Etc. Too many variables in the equation.


Quote:
You as an engineer MUST submit to your
engineering piers why you do not feel this is
a problem. Please submit this for pier
review. Your colleagues are waiting.


Reply:
I don't owe anybody anything. Unless you have much greater than a four-year degree and almost two-decades of engineering experience you're not my peer (once again, no disrespect, just fact). You may have all these things and more, I don't know because I don't know you . . . the point is it's not my responsibility to convince you that Wolf ammunition is the greatest there is. It's your responsibility to convince me that it's the most dangerous ammunition on the market.


Quote:
As an engineer you know that the burden is
not on me to explain why some people are not
having problems. The burden is on you to
explain this statistical phenomenon.

Reply:
You made the unqualified statement that Wolf is the most dangerous ammunition on the market. The burden of proof lies upon you in that you made a very general, blanket statement. In my posts I merely said that in my experience Wolf has performed exceedingly well, I NEVER made any universal statements concerning the product.

Also, a few unqualified forum posts does not make a "statistical phenomenon." A statistical phenomenon would be a statement like, "Wolf is dangerous because 87% of Wolf users have had malfunctions and damage to their firearm," and then show the evidence.

Conclusion:
Is Wolf bad? I dunno. Is Wolf good? I dunno. Have I had good experiences with Wolf? Uh-huh. Has everybody? Huh-uh. Does this make Wolf the most dangerous ammunition on the market? Nope.

I also don't want to hijack this discussion or discuss this ad infinitum.

Stainless Steel
May 28, 2003, 08:52 PM
Minute_Of_Torso:

No offence taken.

As one engineer to the other, I guess this is
a Mexican standoff. You say the burden of
proof is on me and I say the burden of proof
is on you.

Fine, I can live with that even if I do
misspell peer. My point is that this thread
is one of MANY threads about Wolf ammunition.
There are no comparable threads like this
about Winchester, Sellier & Bellot, Blazer,
Remington, Federal, Fiocchi, Olympic, Speer,
Armscor, etc, etc.

Something is going on with Wolf ammunition to
cause all of the problem posts and David S
who started this thread needs to know this.

Wolf is marketing .45acp cartridges which is
a WESTERN cartridge using eastern technology.
If Wolf wants to sell ammunition for WESTERN
made guns there is evidence that they need to
make some engineering changes. There is also
evidence that they need to add STATISTICAL
process controls to improve their quality.

I am still amazed at how emotional people get
about Wolf ammunition. Why does a problem
post about Wolf create such hysteria? Why do
the Wolf proponents go to such lengths to
debunk these posts from the 'average users'?
Very strange.

Again, I have never heard any other argument
from the Wolf proponents other than, I
haven't had any problems, therefore there
isn't a problem.

To those of you reading this post trying to
decide whether to buy Wolf ammunition and you
still decide to do so, I recommend that you
become intimately familiar on how to
recognize and what to do when you get a squib
load. This is a must to keep from getting
hurt.

Stainless.

http://home.mindspring.com/~colt45acp/nra1.gif

goon
May 28, 2003, 09:12 PM
I know it works just fine in my Mosin-Nagants and in my AK.
They also make pretty good .22 ammo.
I have heard about people having trouble with Wolf in their handguns. I would avoid it there and buy that cheap Winchester stuff or order some S&B.
In fact, I do.;)

444
May 28, 2003, 09:31 PM
"I am still amazed at how emotional people get
about Wolf ammunition. Why does a problem
post about Wolf create such hysteria? Why do
the Wolf proponents go to such lengths to
debunk these posts from the 'average users'?
Very strange."

I don't really find it strange at all. Afterall, when I use it and it works great, I have a hard time believing that it is junk because someone I don't know on the internet tells me it is. I have heard and read a lot of things that I questioned, but in this case I have proved it to myself. And as I have mentioned, I have proven it to myself thousands of times. I know my watch keeps good time. I have verified that many times. Just because someone on the internet tells me it is junk doesn't make it so.

I will tell you one reason why I persist in telling of my success with Wolf ammo. When I bought one of my first AR15s, I couldn't wait to shoot it, but I didn't currently have any loaded .223 ammo. My local dealer only had Wolf ammo in stock. I had heard bad things about Wolf ammo from threads just like this, so I was leary of it. But, I decided to throw caution to the wind and buy a couple boxes of it. It was very cheap, like $3 a box or something. I figured that if it didn't run, I would toss it. I had a great time breaking in the new AR. I zeroed it, did some off hand shooting of groups on paper, plinked etc. I never gave the ammo any thought because I was too busy being thrilled with my new rifle. Before long, I realized I was out of ammo and also realized that I had not scouted out a source for another brand of ammo. But it occured to me that I had not had any problems with the ammo I was shooting, so I bought more. No problem. So I bought a case of it. It ran fine. I was having so much fun with my AR that I decided to take a carbine class at Gunsite. I didn't want to look like an idiot, so I started practicing a lot. And I did it with Wolf ammo. I fired several cases to get myself up to speed; no problems. The moral to the story is this. I couldn't have afforded to practice like this with any other brand of ammo that my dealer quoted me prices on out of his wholesale catalog. Practice is good. More practice is better. So, I hate to see someone else who doesn't have money to burn not be able to shoot as much as they could if the cost of ammo was less. And, I would really hate to see that happen if it was because of internet rumor. Since that class I bought a few more cases, and it all worked great. So, when I decided to take another carbine class at a different school, I thought about buying another brand of ammo at a much greater price since I didn't want any problems at the class caused by inferior equipment. But, I had nothing but great success with Wolf, so I shot the whole course with Wolf and again no problem. This is certainly in sharp contrast to the naysayers and I feel this should be brought to the attention of those who don't have an opinion one way or the other.

"Why do the Wolf proponents go to such lengths to
debunk these posts from the 'average users'? "

I was wondering the same thing about you.

My dad worked as an engineer for 46 years and he doesn't know Wolf ammo from gold bars.

Ky Larry
May 28, 2003, 09:35 PM
I never said Wolf ammo doesn't cause problems for any shooter with any gun.All I said was my friends and I had no problems with 2 cases of Wolf 9mm. I was simply reporting on my own experience. Hopefully, the people who read this post will understand that these forums are nothing more than the talk they would hear in any gunshop and take it all with a grain of salt.
Use your own judgement and think for yourself.

Ky Larry

P.S. Engineering degrees are fine but they don't always equate to common sense. Last week I watched our plant engineer (Masters in Chemical Engineering from Ohio State) put a sandwich wrapped in aluminun foil in the microwave at work. He could't undestand where all the sparks and smoke came from.

Stainless Steel
May 28, 2003, 09:45 PM
444

For awhile, I will refrain from responding
until the Wolf propenents post something NEW,
other than the same old tired: I haven't had
any problems, therefore there isn't a
problem.

Stainless.

http://home.mindspring.com/~colt45acp/nra1.gif

Stainless Steel
May 28, 2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Ky Larry


P.S. Engineering degrees are fine but they
don't always equate to common sense. Last
week I watched our plant engineer (Masters in
Chemical Engineering from Ohio State) put a
sandwich wrapped in aluminun foil in the
microwave at work. He couldn't understand
where all the sparks and smoke came from.


It obviously requires more than common sense
to be the plant engineer or he wouldn't be on
the payroll making more money than just about
everyone else.

It will also require more than common cense
to fix Wolf's quality problems. It will
require a degreed engineer using tools like
statistical process control. Obviously common
cense has not worked for Wolf. Time to take
it to the next level for them.

Surely you won't argue that there isn't room
for improvement here!

Stainless.

http://home.mindspring.com/~colt45acp/nra1.gif

Andrew Wyatt
May 28, 2003, 10:34 PM
Well, i haven't had any problems so there isn't a problem.

I fail to see why you seem to think me mad for buying ammo that causes me no problems.

LFW
May 29, 2003, 05:47 AM
I love cheap practice ammo because I don't reload. Here's my experience with Wolf: Will not work in any of my SIGs (.45 or 9mm). Very difficult ejection from my S&W 940 and 625 revolvers. The Wolf .22 match target round will not cycle my S&W M41 unless I go to a lighter recoil spring. The .22 also gives me ejection problems with my S&W M18 and M17. The Wolf 9mm would also not work in a HK compact I used to have. It DOES work just fine in my Browning High Power.

When this stuff first hit the market I joyfully bought 500 rounds of .45 and 500 rounds of 9mm. Took me a loooong time to shoot it up.--Leigh

Ky Larry
May 29, 2003, 09:44 AM
Stainless,I mean no disrespect to no one, especially over something as trivial as a posting on a forum. I agree there is room for improvement in all thing and all people, especially me. All I'm saying is use your own observations and make your own conclusions. Opinions are like...... well, you know the rest.

cordex
May 30, 2003, 01:09 AM
There are no comparable threads like this
about Winchester, Sellier & Bellot, Blazer,
Remington, Federal, Fiocchi, Olympic, Speer,
Armscor, etc, etc.
And if I found some, what exactly would that prove? Quick search on TFL:

Winchester problems:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=101889

CCI Blazer problems:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=99943
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89128

S&B takes some hits, as well as Winchester and CCI
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=95079

Different guns and shooters like different ammunition. Any manufacturer that produces millions if not billions of cartridges per year is bound to have foul-ups. Wolf is no exception. But then, neither are any of the others. Variables like hardness of primers, relative slickness of the jacket, shape, weight and exposed metal of bullet all can affect feeding, firing and extraction in different guns.
To those of you reading this post trying to
decide whether to buy Wolf ammunition and you
still decide to do so, I recommend that you
become intimately familiar on how to
recognize and what to do when you get a squib
load. This is a must to keep from getting
hurt.
I don't care who you are, what gun you're shooting or what ammo you're feeding it, this is a must. Wolf or no.

gudel
May 30, 2003, 02:13 AM
uhm... just shot 50rds of wolf today in .40S&W. all fed, fired, ejected just fine. accurate to boot too.

Stainless Steel
May 30, 2003, 09:41 AM
Without the right 'tools', some jobs just
can't be done. Statistics is a tool that the
scientific community uses to look at the big
picture. Simply a way of looking at the
forest without getting confused by the
individual trees.

While there are problems posted about other
brands, STATISTICALLY the number of people
who use Wolf ammunition report more problems
than all other brands combined.

Statistics is fun. Yes, statistics can be
abused just like any other tool.

If you watch for squib loads, I don't think
you will die using Wolf ammunition. In guns
made in the west there are reliability issues
more with Wolf than the other brands. Why is
this so hard for people to accept? To some
that makes it crap and that's what they post.

All I'm asking is for people to look at the
big picture. David S started this thread
asking "Wolf ammo? what's the consensus?"
Another way of asking, what is the big
picture.


Stainless.



http://home.mindspring.com/~colt45acp/nra1.gif

cordex
May 30, 2003, 03:29 PM
While there are problems posted about other
brands, STATISTICALLY the number of people
who use Wolf ammunition report more problems
than all other brands combined.
Not to drag this out any longer than necessary, but may I see these statistics, sir? I don't really have a dog in this fight, but you keep talking in statistics while dealing in anecdotes. Peer review and all that, right?

Stainless Steel
May 30, 2003, 06:02 PM
cordex:

Cordex - "Don't be that guy". You know, the
one in the TV advertisements. You went out
and did a search for the other brands. Do one
for Wolf. There are at least six different
gun forums out there that I regularly go to.
Many have a section just for ammunition. Go
find them.

"Don't be that guy" who has lived his whole
life in a forest standing in the middle
radioing out only what you see with your own
eyes. The people circling 30,000 feet above
you in a jet airliner see a mountain range on
one side of the forest, a big lake on the
other side and a big river running through
the forest which you have never seen because
you are stuck in the middle. They are also
trying to tell you that the forest is being
chopped down at a faster rate than ever. They
are trying to tell you that you will live to
see the day when the forest will be gone. Yet
you refuse to believe them.

Get a ticket to ride in the airliner! I am
DONE with this.

Stainless.

http://home.mindspring.com/~colt45acp/nra1.gif

444
May 30, 2003, 06:35 PM
So in other words, every time you are asked to hold yourself to your own standard you refuse ?

This whole argument reminds me of a story I heard in a philosophy class years ago. I don't remember the details now, but anyone who has taken a basic philosophy course I am sure has heard it.
One guy asks the other guy to prove the existance of that rock right there.
The other guy kicks the rock and says, "I prove it thus".
He didn't need to form any committees, he didn't need to do a statistical study, he didn't need to hire degreed engineers. He saw the evidence right in front of him. He saw the forest in spite of the trees.

caseydog
September 23, 2003, 02:10 AM
Eveyone I know who shoots Wolf does so in large quantity mostly in semi auto carbines , thats one of the huge advantages , being able to shoot more than you could ever afford with any other ammo. I'm not using it for self defense , it's plinking ammo. Maybe it's just me but 5 or 6 stovepipes per thousand in my Mini-14 isn't what i'd call a huge problem, add to that the ease of casing picking with a magnet (just to keep from littering) and it's a trade off thats well worth it. In my area it's half the price of any other .223 ammo in case quantities. Never saw any real problems with it in AR's , mini's , AK's and variants, even one buddy's Ingram doesn't seem to mind it in 9mm. Would I shoot it in my primary carry piece ? Yes for plinking ,if I was sure I had time to clean it before serious carry. Case

Matthew_Q
September 23, 2003, 08:05 AM
WOLF makes ammo
WOLFF makes springs

I don't know what WOLLFF makes. Or what WOLLF makes.


Everybody likes to tell you horror stories that they heard from some guy who says his cousin's buddy used some WOLF ammo, and got the chamber gummed up.

I have read a FIRSTHAND report that someone took an empty WOLF 7.62x39 case, and suspended it above a lighter. Heated the crap out of it. Guess what? No laquer goo or anything. I think most stories about it gumming up chambers are just that - stories.

That being said, I do not use WOLF in any of my firearms. When I get an AK clone, or an SKS, sure, I'll use it in those firearms. I'll stick to brass case in everything else.

larryw
September 23, 2003, 12:02 PM
Don't care to enter the fray with regards to Wolf's centerfire ammo as I have nothing to add that hasn't already been repeatedly beaten to death, but their rimfire ammo is outstanding. Comes off the same (German) assembly line as Lapua (has Lapua headstamp) and SK, but for a lot less money. If you can find it, buy it.

bountyhunter
September 23, 2003, 02:14 PM
I have read a FIRSTHAND report that someone took an empty WOLF 7.62x39 case, and suspended it above a lighter. Heated the crap out of it. Guess what? No laquer goo or anything. I think most stories about it gumming up chambers are just that - stories.

You will want to notify Olympic Arms a manufacturer of AR-15 clones, since their website currently lists an explicit warning against using Wolf (they call it by name) or any other lacquer-coated ammo. Obviously, what Olympic is posting must be false in light of the new information about the lighter test.

www.olyarms.com

They tell about how the lacquer melted into the works of guns returned for service and also state specifically that steel case ammo is hard on extractors and chambers (it also voids their warranty). But what do they know..... they just manufacture and repair guns. I'm sure that dried lacquer paint that had siezed up the actions on their guns came from somewhere else.

Correia
September 23, 2003, 04:13 PM
How about this for a really really wild idea!?!

Try it yourself! :D

If it works for you, good. If it jams. Bad.

That way you don't have to take anybody's word for anything.

We have a bunch of members who use Wolf with no problem. We have some members with verifiable problems. Does that mean that my particular guns will have problems? Well gee whiz, I won't know until I try.

And I was there when Skyder did a test on a piece of .223 Wolf with a blow torch. We could get no lacquer to scrape off the case.

But don't take my word for it! I'm just some dude on the internet. Torches are cheap, do it yourself.

I have a friend with an AR that jams about every 3rd shot with Wolf. (funny, he is an engineer.) I have another friend with an AR that has shot probably 4000+ rounds of Wolf with no problem. (this one is a NG armorer). So in my "statistical sample" I can summarize that Wolf either A. Works in your gun or B. Doesn't work in your gun. :p

But for the love of John Moses Browning could we please please please refrain from postings like this: " Wolf Sux! It will blow up your gun!" From a post like that how the hell am I supposed to know if you know anything about the ammo in question? Why does it suck? Please elaborate. Has it actually caused problems for you? Or are you just parroting something you read on the net?

As for your career field and level of education determining how much you know about ammo, all I can say is that some of the dumbest people I have ever known have had doctorates and one of the smartest people I have ever met worked as a garbage man. :) Hey, I took statistics classes. I hated them. Barely passed. :D

meathammer
September 23, 2003, 04:53 PM
If you enjoy hammering out stuck cases with a wooden dowel, by all means buy and shoot Wolf.

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