[max popenker]

Ok, so i carry my gun (1 for about a 6 months, and made some observations.
First of all, the reaction of my temporary colleagues (i'm a freelance SAP consultant and change projects quite often ;)) was surprisingly calm. I never got that sort of "but why you need it" or "I hate guns" conversations.
On the other hand, i was asked once if i had a license to carry the thing (my answer "yes, i have" completed the discussion), and at least twice i was asked what effort is required to get a carry permit and how to buy a gun.

This sort of surprises me in a pleasant way - it means that our (Russian, for those who cannot see my location tag on the left) society is more or less ready for relaxation in gun control - at least, the thinking part of the society...

1) well, my gun is not what i'd like to carry (as my dreamgun is 1911 in .45 blued Commander flavor). We aren't allowed to carry real pistols; instead, so far we (law-abiding Russian citizens) are permitted to carry only less-lethal means of self-defence, such as pepper-sprays, electronic shockers, and, less-lethal guns firing rubber bullets. Mine is a 4-barreled derringer-type "gun' which fires special electrically-primed ammo loaded with rubber slugs of approximately 15mm / .60 caliber. it is quite bulky and "prints" severely under my jacket, but it is the best i can have so far. pics of the thing are below:

[mons meg]

Now if those were 20 gauge shells, you would really have something! ;)

[Baba Louie]

Max, a question or two. Does the law in Russia stop criminals from carrying and using lethal weapons? (I probably know the answer as do we all)
Your less than lethal weapon... Make and Mfg? range? accuracy? price? ammo selection and price? Do they make a 2-shot O/U (slimline)?

If you can get that one to Las Vegas before the New Year, I'll trade you a blued steel (parkerized really) Springfield Armory 4" US "GI" Champion 1911 straight up for it... providing you throw in some ammo to boot. And maybe a holster too? :D

[max popenker]

Baba Louie, you know the answer about stopping criminals, aren't you?
But most of us ordinary citizens have very limited chances to face a TT- or AK-toting criminal. Most our concerns are about street gangs armed with baseball bats, cheap knives and empty glass bottles, and this thing is still definitely better than a bare fist... Of cause I'd like to swap it to 1911, but not until they will change the local laws so i will be able to own & carry it legally.

as about the "gun", yes, they make a 2bbl O/U. Accuracy is, say, a minute of @ss at 10 yards with all 4 shots. Muzzle energy is 80 Joules (about 55 Ft.Lbs), which is enough to broke a rib or other bone at 3-4 yards range if opponent is carrying a thin jacket.
Price of the "gun" itself is about $250; ammo is about $2 per round; standard loading is "rubber slug", but there's also "flash/bang" (a nasty thing in nighttime, and very good against wandering dogs), and signal flares (nice to make improvised fireworks ;))

[geekWithA.45]

Max, my inner engineer simply wants to...tinker...with that thing.

Right off the bat, I'm thinking moon clips to hasten reload, barrel extensions to get you some more ooomph, and slightly better than minute of buttock @ 10 yards, and a strap on laser of some sort, because I'm guessing the sights are there for tradition rather than utility. ;)


Good on ya for doin' whatcha can.

[Dorryn]

Im gonna go with Baba Louie on this.... Where can I get one?! :D

[max popenker]

geekWithA.45, actually this thing already has a built-in LAM, located centrally between "barrels" ;) LAM switch is located above left grip "panel", battery is stored in the butt of the grip.
lengthening of barrels would not work "per se", as every cartridge itself is a barrel; however, some handloading (although illegal) makes this thing to be somewhat more useful.
Clips are possible, but i thing two-round clips will be more useful for compact carry.

[redneckrepairs]

Thanks for the post Max. I hope its ok , I cross posted this on another forum to show what you poor folks have to go thro.

[max popenker]

redneckrepairs, can you please give me a link to that other forum?

By the way, this 4-barreled abomination is not the only possible choice; we also allowed to carry some 9mm and 10mm "pistols" that fire rubber bullets, such as copies of PM and PSM, or even "milled-out" Nagant or TT :barf: :cuss:
Problem is that those cooler-looking guns are significantly less effective, especially during cold winter, as their light rubber balls of .35 - .40 caliber are stopped easily by winter clothing

[redneckrepairs]

Max the forum is http://www.combatcarry.com and its about as nice as this one , smaller and a bit more specific tho. Its all about Concealed Carry , not much on rifles , shotguns , ect.. over there

[geekWithA.45]

Clips are possible, but i thing two-round clips will be more useful for compact carry.


Agree, that's sorta what I had in mind.

From the pix, it looks like the projectile is sitting right there, at the end of the muzzle, and so I was thinking that additional barrel would sustain the time the projectile was under pressure for longer to get some more muzzle v, and perhaps impart some spin on it to boot.

How easily do the, er, shells extract after firing? Is there any sort of spring loaded extractor, or do you have to dig them out?

[White Horseradish]

Additional barrel length is not possible. This "dumpling maker" is classified as a "non-barreled weapon" under Russian law, adding a barrel would make it a firearm and therefore illegal. Realistically, the casing of the cartridge is the barrel.

[default]

Until I got to the end of your post, read that it was a less-than-lethal device, and expanded the pictures, I only had the thumbnails to go by. It looked like a polymer-framed C.O.P. derringer loaded with 12-gauge shotgun shells. I was thinking, "I knew Russians were tough, but come on!"

[MountainBear]

Does Russian law also dictate where you can shoot an attacker? Several LTL defenses in the US come with warnings as to the effect of "can be lethal if used at less that 10 feet or aimed at the head". If there are no limits I say good for you at doing what you can do and aim at their damn heads.

[Zundfolge]

By the way, this 4-barreled abomination is not the only possible choice; we also allowed to carry some 9mm and 10mm "pistols" that fire rubber bullets, such as copies of PM and PSM, or even "milled-out" Nagant or TT


Is it obvious by seeing these other pistols that they are indeed the non lethal variety? Since in most self defensive uses of a firearm no shot is fired, I would think one that looked more like a real gun would be more effective.

I'm not sure I'd recognize that thing as a weapon if it was pointed at me ... I'd be thinking you were trying to give me a massage or shave or something :p

[Dr.Rob]

Yeah if that thing fired lead slugs ala 20 ga... yikes.

Russian firearms tech is just... fascinating, even when it goes wrong.

[mp510]

Maybe something like this would be easier to carry:
http://www.baikalinc.ru/en/company/65.html

[max popenker]

mp510, yes it is more comfortable to carry, but workmanship of these "mutants" is mediocre at its best, and effectiveness is even worse (especially when opponent carries thick winter clothing)

Zundfolge, yes, manuals claim that owner shall not fire at ranges below 1 meter (3 feet) and it is prohibited to aim at the head.. but who can calculate exact range? and for the headshots it is always "i aimed at COM but under stress i tend to shot higher..."

geekWithA.45, the rounds with plugs at the front are flash/bang ones. The rubber slug rounds have slugs seated about 1/2 down the case, so there is about an inch or so of the "case barrel" for projectile acceleration

[Manedwolf]

We aren't allowed to carry real pistols; instead, so far we (law-abiding Russian citizens) are permitted to carry only less-lethal means of self-defence, such as pepper-sprays, electronic shockers, and, less-lethal guns firing rubber bullets.

Quite telling that Russian citizens are allowed to carry more than people with the misfortune to be in the People's Republic of Massachusetts are ever allowed to have. Tasers are verboten, period, there, and pepper spray only with an LTC, and only for residents. Rubber-bullet guns, never.

or even "milled-out" Nagant or TT
Problem is that those cooler-looking guns are significantly less effective, especially during cold winter, as their light rubber balls of .35 - .40 caliber are stopped easily by winter clothing

That a TT would be modified so as to be of insufficient penetration is so painfully ironic...I have a Polish TT-33, and that thing is a slender pocket cannon with its original 7.62x25 round.

[ceetee]

...but workmanship of these "mutants" is mediocre at its best...

You have "mutants". We have "drunken monkeys". It's nice to see that people from all over the world have the same problems...

[USGuns]

Wow, that's really different.
Is anything like that available here in the U.S.?
Anything that works in principle the same way?

Found another link here:
http://www.afte.org/announcements/russiansafegon.htm

[USGuns]

Hi Max,
What are the dimensions of the PB-4M?
Also, what is the weight?
Thanks!

[.cheese.]

Where can I buy one?

Maybe Metal Storm Limited was inspired by these devices. I've never seen one before.

Thanks Max. I learned something here. :)

[Rabid Rabbit]

You're a SAP consultant, thank god there somebody with a freaking clue about it out there. Sorry work related rant off.

[Mortech]

Yikes , I was thinking it was a 4 barrel shotgun too . I really feel for you guys over there , makes me wonder what Russians think about our carry laws here .

[USGuns]

Maybe we could use a "rib buster" like that over here?! :evil: