M&P in IDPA


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TEX
November 27, 2006, 07:42 PM
Because my Glock 23 with a stippled grip (dimensions still the same) was moved from SSP to ESP with the rule change, I have been looking for a SSP to compete with. I figured I would just get a Glock 19 and be done with it. However I looked at one of the S&W M&Ps and was really impressed even though I really had hated the Sigmas. I looked at the IDPA rule book, but was unable to discern whether the M&P would fall under SSP or ESP. The trigger mechanism seems to me to be more like the Springfield XD than the Glock, and the XD is, so I am told, relegated to ESP because its action is considered SA. I did a search on several boards, but did not come up with an answer to this question. Anyone know if IDPA Arkansas has ruled on the M&P and what category it is in?

Thanks - TEX

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Jim Watson
November 27, 2006, 07:57 PM
The Plastic M&P is being shot in SSP by E. Langdon, formerly of Beretta and Sigarms, now at S&W. I think the trigger action - division assignment is more a triumph of advertising and public relations than mechanics. The XD was promoted early as being effectively single action to distance it from Glock. What that mostly did was cost it police sales.

But the safe thing to do is contact Robert Ray at B'ville and get an official pronouncement, not depending on strangers on the internet.

Hoser
November 27, 2006, 10:48 PM
The ATF considers the M&P a DA pistol. The ATF also considers the XD/HS2000 a single action pistol, hence it lives in ESP.

I would shoot it in SSP till someone at IDPA says different.

gotm4
November 28, 2006, 07:55 AM
The M&P is a DA pistol. Even though the striker is 99% 'cocked' the action of pulling the trigger forces the sear down which pushed the striker rearward a few thousands of an inch and then releases the striker allowing it to impact the primer.

Kilroy
December 20, 2006, 12:01 AM
Of course it's a competitive division of IDPA, look where they hold some of the biggest shoots in IDPA. No wonder S&W gets a favorable standing.

Hoser
December 20, 2006, 10:47 AM
And the fact the ATF considers it a double action pistol has nothing to do with it being in SSP. Get a grip.

eerw
December 20, 2006, 12:56 PM
Of course it's a competitive division of IDPA, look where they hold some of the biggest shoots in IDPA. No wonder S&W gets a favorable standing.

that's why with the rulebook change they change revolver division to SSR and ESR and put a limit on barrel length so all those shooting 610s and 625s had to cut their barrels or buy new guns..

Hoser
December 21, 2006, 09:45 PM
Lets also not forget how when IDPA created ESP, they completely killed the 686 38 Super revo that was *made* for IDPA.

I dont think IDPA, or IPSC for that matter, is kissing anyones behind.

They make the rules and companies and shooters have to deal with the changes. I dont think mean to screw any one brand.

I personally think the Glock, XD/HS-2000 and the MP belong in ESP. But thats me.

Kilroy
February 3, 2007, 09:11 AM
And the fact the ATF considers it a double action pistol has nothing to do with it being in SSP.

If you don't mind, can you provide the official reference for that information?

Thank you.

Hoser
February 3, 2007, 12:22 PM
can you provide the official reference for that information?
The IDPA rulebook says no single action pistols in SSP.

The ATF says the M&P and the Glock are DA while the XD is single action.

If you want specific ATF or IDPA references, go to their sites.

I seriously doubt IDPA put the M&P in SSP just cause they host the Winter Invitational and some other matches and to snub Springfield.

The XD is right where it belongs.

Kilroy
February 3, 2007, 05:31 PM
No reference to back up the ATF claims huh?

OK, but a simple "no I can't/won't" would have sufficed.

Taking an M&P apart and forensic examination have not turned up the parts that show it to be trigger cocking, so I wondered what the ATF might have found.

Thanks anyway.....

Hoser
February 3, 2007, 07:33 PM
You are the one needing the info. You look it up or call the BATFE. I am not Mr Google.

Kilroy
February 4, 2007, 03:38 PM
Hoser:

Thanks for the guidance. I have heard that claim before, but can't get anyone stating it to back up what they say. My instant source for my observations come from actually having the gun in hand and taking it apart.
Add to that, the curious descriptions on the S&W web site.

Thanks anyway.

FieroCDSP
February 4, 2007, 09:14 PM
Kilroy:

The only reason anyone would consider the M&P to be DA is because of the taper on the firing pin where it meets the sear. The sear is also tapered a bit. Since the sear only moves down, the firing pin has to go backwards just a bit before firing to clear it. I've looked at my M&P at length, and I'm sure that taper is one of the things that gets reduced to lighten the trigger. Whether that is a good reason to call it DA is beyond me, but from what definitions I've heard used to back it up, it makes sense. I'd still call the IDPA and see where it falls in.

Kilroy
February 4, 2007, 09:31 PM
I'd agree with your estimation of the M&P. I have seen "trigger jobs" for the M&P that make that taper even less so. It would not be too hard to imagine the M&P failing to make the grade with some pretty large contracts, when it cannot make the specs of being a trigger cocking pistol.

I do a lot of technical analysis of various firearms and systems and am always amused by the number of errors that gunwriters make, and consider them the least reliable source of information.

Jim Watson
February 4, 2007, 11:52 PM
I still think the classification of the Plastic M&P as "double action" was more advertising than mechanical engineering.

The gun IS being shot in SSP so they must have convinced IDPA.

I don't know that the ATF classifies action types, you might do better searchng around at the NIJ.

Kilroy
February 5, 2007, 12:01 AM
Jim:

I don't think they classify domestic products, but would certainly like to find out. When I see claims to such, I always check to see if they can back up their claims.

Look how long gun writers called the XD DAO. I have gun magazines where you can see the description evolving.

S&W web site is just as elusive, but their manuals for their pistols are worth a look in what they explain.

Tim James
February 6, 2007, 05:11 PM
The M&P is a DA pistol. Even though the striker is 99% 'cocked' the action of pulling the trigger forces the sear down which pushed the striker rearward a few thousands of an inch and then releases the striker allowing it to impact the primer.Wow, that sounds like the XD. I guess there must be a subtle mechanical difference like FieroCDSP said, or just a marketing / perception thing like Jim Watson said.

I feel bad for the people that care about classing; the rules must drive them insane. Maybe people like FieroCDSP are used to even more ridiculous sanctioning bodies, so IDPA's not so bad. ;)

(No need to turn this into an IDPA rant; I'm just out there to have fun.)

johes
February 7, 2007, 08:35 PM
I agree with Hoser that the xd, glock, and M&P should be ESP, but until IDPA changes, I'll keep shooting the M&P in SSP. BTW, Ernest Langdon shot an M&P in SSPat the Carolina Cup last year and there are about 5 that shoot it in SSP at the club I shoot(2 are Master shooters).

Jim Watson
February 7, 2007, 09:26 PM
I think that gunsmithing and shooting techniques are so well developed by now that there is no real difference on the target and the timer between the various Minor PF/10-round guns and shooters whether they are listed SSP or ESP. You could just as well combine the Divisons except that would reduce the number of "winners" which is never a popular move.
For that matter, although there are no overall placement prizes allowed, we all look at the match results as a whole, and the CDP guns do about as well unless there are a lot of CoFs with the maximum 18 shots required.
Strip it down to revolvers and autos?

Joe D
February 9, 2007, 07:09 AM
All of my stages are 18 rounds. I have looked at several M&Ps. Unless my old myopic eyes are fooling me the striker does not move to the rear at all. Really does not matter. I would let the M&P and the XD shoot in SSP. Neither are as good as my Glocks.

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