Mosin-Nagant gets attention


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ZeSpectre
November 30, 2006, 11:25 AM
I have a buddy who is seriously into the C&R guns and has been going on about his Mosin-Nagant rifle forever. So we finally go to the range and bring it along. He pulls out this shorter barreled (maybe an M-44? I don't know) version and hands me one of the 7.62x54R cartridges which I'd never seen before and all I could think of was a .30-06 cartridge.

Well at least my buddy had the decency to warn me about this cannon before he touched off the first round (indoor range mind you).

BOOOOOOM! I'm not prone to jumping but it startled the hell outta me and I see EVERY other shooter along the line suddenly step back and look over at us to see what the hell had happened. Later as we were packing up to go the guy next to us said he thought that we'd had a gun blow up on us.

Had fun though :D

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Third_Rail
November 30, 2006, 11:45 AM
Yeah, the M-44 certainly gets attention.... so does a ruined MN I got for (basically) free that has a 17" barrel now. That hurts my ears if I just wear plugs OR muffs....

Langenator
November 30, 2006, 11:56 AM
M44s get even more attention if you fire them with the pigsticker deployed. :evil:

Eightball
November 30, 2006, 02:26 PM
M44s get even more attention if you fire them with the pigsticker deployed.Especially with a pig on there--free and fast cooking. :D

kfranz
November 30, 2006, 02:45 PM
Especially with a pig on there--free and fast cooking


Mmmm, I love bacon.

carterbeauford
November 30, 2006, 02:48 PM
Hah, when my C&R arrives this will be the first thing I buy. My buddy thinks his K98 is the end of the line when it comes to powerful milsurps.

Is 7.62x54 really that much worse than .30-06?

dasmi
November 30, 2006, 02:51 PM
If it had a folding bayonet, it was an M44. If it was short, but didn't have a bayonet, it was an M38.
Either way, Mosin-Nagants are fun.
Here's my M44.
http://sixforsure.org/thr/m44.jpg

ZeSpectre
November 30, 2006, 02:52 PM
Is 7.62x54 really that much worse than .30-06?

With that short barreled rifle...yup! I've fired a good amount of .30-06 and that x54R really caught me off guard.

Although now that I think about it, I've never fired .30-06 on an indoor range.

kungfuhippie
November 30, 2006, 02:54 PM
7.62x54r is alittle more powerful than .308. The M44 is light and short so recoil is hugh and muzzle flash is awesome.

But the Steyr Mannlicher 95/30 weights even less and shoots a bigger round 8x56r I can only get about 10 shoots through mine before my sholder starts screaming. It kicks harder than ANYTHING ELSE I've shot. Shotguns, .30-06, mauser, mosins.

I love that muzzle flash at dusk.

Arkie
November 30, 2006, 02:59 PM
I really like my little M38. I haven't shot it a dusk yet but when I do I will take a photo of it.


I would do it today, but we are having an ice storm here so I am staying inside. LOL...

http://www.laray.net/toys/19.jpg

dasmi
November 30, 2006, 03:01 PM
Aww come on. Shoot that Mosin out in the ice storm, get in touch with its Russian roots.

Arkie
November 30, 2006, 03:11 PM
Shurrrrrrrre. I would pull the trigger and find myself about 10 feet from where I started. LOL... :D

ZeSpectre
November 30, 2006, 03:28 PM
M38, Yup, that's the wee beastie right there.
and yes the muzzel flash is...well, apocalyptic comes to mind :D .

Manedwolf
November 30, 2006, 03:31 PM
In a video on Youtube, someone firing their Mosin-Nagant at a range causes a car alarm to go off in the parking lot. :D

ndh87
November 30, 2006, 04:00 PM
i fired my friend's M44 from the hip, and i could actually feel the heat form the muzzel flash on my face...:what: i want one:evil:

270Win
November 30, 2006, 04:15 PM
When my father shot my M38 - first person besides myself shooting it - I sat behind him and at an angle. And I couldn't believe it, the muzzle blast was pounding even sitting THERE. It was stiff. And we're talking feet behind him, not inches.

And yeah, I've gotten that "What in sam hell is THAT!?" look from other shooters.

TheBigBulgarian
November 30, 2006, 04:19 PM
I love the m-38, my father has one, and I want it lol. When he got his M-38 I got my Yugo SKS. I love my SKS but ever since I shot the m38 I have been wanting one. Next gun show I am getting one.
A lot of power for under $100
One of my presents for my dads bday was a slip on pad for the m-38's butt because the butt of the m38 has steel on it. Old man gets a nasty bruise after 10 shots lol.
We shot it at our indoor range and the range is divided into 3 bays with 6-7 lanes into each bay well lets say people from the other bays come by to see what is going on.

My dad has some old memories with ol' Nagant. Back in Bulgaria when he was in high school long long time ago. In their senior year they had two weeks of "pre-army" training. All males go into the military after 18. So they shot Mosin's then, in the Army he had an Folding AK-47.

So when I took him to his first Gun Show in the US guess what he got?
An m-38

Damn I talk too much. LOL

Manedwolf
November 30, 2006, 04:31 PM
The Russians seemed to have a propensity for making firearms that startle bystanders with thunderous reports and massive muzzleblast.

The Tokarev TT-33 pistol and the Mosin-Nagant M38 rifle both tend to get the same reaction at ranges, a wide-eyed "*** was that?!" from other people down the line.

Mr White
November 30, 2006, 04:52 PM
I always get a kick (pun only partially intended :) ) out of shooting my M44 late in the day, just before dark, when you can really see the fireball. I took mine hunting a few times and have killed a deer with it. My buddy was razzing me about it one time after he saw the fireball. I told him it was made that way on purpose so that you could kill and roast the deer all at once.

Being the cheap bastards that they were, I think the Russians figured they could combine the functionality of a carbne rifle and a flamethrower into one weapon.

Mine has become a safe queen. The recoil is just too unpleasant and the accuracy isn't what I'd like it to be. I'll stick with my M28s and my M39.

bthest86
November 30, 2006, 05:17 PM
I shot mine in an indoor range a few years ago.

I packed up and went upstairs into the store, and everybody turned and looked at me.

Turns out my M44 was rattling the windows and causing merchandise to fall off hooks and shelves.

Cosmoline
November 30, 2006, 05:29 PM
But the Steyr Mannlicher 95/30 weights even less and shoots a bigger round 8x56r I can only get about 10 shoots through mine before my sholder starts screaming. It kicks harder than ANYTHING ELSE I've shot. Shotguns, .30-06, mauser, mosins.

Yup. I can shoot banian all day from a Mosin carbine, no problem. But with that magnum-level ball out of a little Mannlicher straight pull, all bets are off. Look at what it chronos to:

http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/8x56r/surp.html

THREE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED ft. lbs! Out of a tiny carbine! It's actually the single most potent rifle cartridge of the WWII era, at least this side of the anti-tank rifles.

AmbulanceDriver
November 30, 2006, 05:35 PM
My younger brother was the first to purchase the fabled MN. His was an M38, and we were duly impressed by the long cartridge and short barrel. My two youngest brothers are twins, so for the first time taking one of them shooting, we drove up into the hills to let loose and have a "blast". :)

So as we're getting up to the area we're going to shoot in, we're noticing a lot of snow on the ground. We make it up to our "pit", and there's about a foot to eighteen inches of snow on the ground depending on where you stand. No biggie, makes finding the brass easier...

So after we've been shooting for a while, the youngest (about 16 years old) decides he wants to try the "cannon". No problem. He's fired smaller caliber rifles before, etc. but for some reason forgot to take a stance with his right leg back. Yep. feet perpendicular to the line of fire. Right under his shoulders. I was about to say something, when *BOOOM*.... And younger brother is now flat on his back, in a foot of snow, with the rifle pointing straight into the air. And myself, my other brother, and Dad are laughing hysterically.

If only I'd had a video camera.......

rugbyer81
November 30, 2006, 08:16 PM
Shot my brother's M-44 a few weeks ago. We were using military surplus loads and the thing echoed across the entire valley we shot it in. Huge difference between it and my full-length mosin. What I noticed most was that on the full length mosin, my left ear was far enough from the muzzle so that it wasnt anything more then a loud shot, but on the M-44 the barrel is so short that my ear was ringing and painful after a few shots. Probably a good idea to use ear protection next time.

fal 4 me
November 30, 2006, 10:19 PM
The M44 is light

Compared to what? The gun weighs over 8.5 lbs, unloaded, that's heavier than most deer rifles. I've only shot Brown Bear 203 grain soft points through mine, but I thought the recoil wasn't as bad as my 30-06 Savage 116 off a bench designed for someone smaller than my 6'1'' frame. It's a fun gun to shoot, more accurate than my Yugo SKS, and recoil isn't as bad as people make it out to be. It's also gun that drew noise complaints from others at the range.

Rosstradamus
November 30, 2006, 10:39 PM
So when I took him to his first Gun Show in the US

Now that is a story arc. From the Bulgarian Army to a gun show in America.

There were three guys in the lane to my left a few outings back, shooting one of those short Mosins. Two twenty-year-olds and an older man I took to be the father of one or both. It was amusing to watch them cringe when they weren't the shooter, just a bystander. Can you develop a flinch just from watching? That Mosin carbine would do it if anything could.

RevolvingCylinder
November 30, 2006, 10:49 PM
These threads need to stop. I'm having difficulty fighting the impulse to buy more milsurps.

kungfuhippie
November 30, 2006, 11:07 PM
Don't resist, come over to the C&R side. You will not regret it, Of course your wife will:neener:

Once you get one, you will get another, and another. You will buy a gun that ammo for is scarce just to have it. It will sit in the safe except for once a year where you take it out, run 20 round through it, and then spend 4 hours cleaning it:D You will buy some just cause you can, they will sit in cosmoline indefinatly since you already have 5 that shoot 8mm so this one can stay "untouched"

Go ahead, buy some. Start with a mosin or two, get a few mausers and then go from there...

grimjaw
November 30, 2006, 11:14 PM
someone firing their Mosin-Nagant at a range causes a car alarm to go off in the parking lot

I've done that, but I don't have a video of it. I do have a slo-mo and a frame cap of the flamethrower in progress (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmqKERUJy4U). Yes, I know I didn't have the rifle shouldered tight enough on the one shot.

jm

270Win
November 30, 2006, 11:58 PM
An M44 has the distinction of being the only gun at my range to outduel some ancient guy with his muzzleloader of indeterminate make. This old guy - very unfriendly, btw - would only get off a shot every few minutes... but that shot was THUNDEROUS. Had people swearing up and down the line. Ruined many groups. Caused two or three to pack up. Was completely within his rights as a shooter, but was also completely unwilling to even shout out a warning or do ANYTHING to be civil. He was spoken to a couple times, but he basically said "shove off" in coarser language. Worst of all, he refused to agree to a cold range so we could go down and inspect / change targets out.

Well, I was at the complete opposide side of the line from him shooting a 10/22. I was annoyed, but not affected or really concerned. Just plinking away.

Some guy rolls up, talks to the rest for a while, then from the four or five bags he has, chooses the smallest one... sits down at the vacant bench to the left of this guy... unwraps the first M44 I'd ever seen, extending the bayonet, pulls out a few stripper clips and loads up. He proceeds to unload maybe 50 rounds in about 5 minutes, and - as you would expect - it was LOUD. The muzzleloader was getting really cranky, had to re-aim a few times, and finally HE asks the M44 shooter to stop while he shoots. The M44 guy does so... and immediately go back to unloading these monster blasts. The muzzleloader guy is either pissed off, unnerved, or unable to reload in those conditions... so he packed up and left, muttering all the while. With the 'phones on, I had no idea what he was saying, but I'm sure it was nasty.

After he left, the M44 guy immediately switched over to a Savage bolt-action and started shooting slowly and deliberately...

So they are tools with multiple uses, to be sure... ;)

Spiggy
December 1, 2006, 12:06 AM
my freind fired off one of those M44s when we were packing up.

Man, I can imagine a whole generation of deaf russian folk, :what: Survivors of the evil carbine!

-I love how the thing shoots a 4ft long fireball though :neener:

RevolvingCylinder
December 1, 2006, 12:17 AM
Don't resist, come over to the C&R side. You will not regret it, Of course your wife will

Once you get one, you will get another, and another. You will buy a gun that ammo for is scarce just to have it. It will sit in the safe except for once a year where you take it out, run 20 round through it, and then spend 4 hours cleaning it You will buy some just cause you can, they will sit in cosmoline indefinatly since you already have 5 that shoot 8mm so this one can stay "untouched"

Go ahead, buy some. Start with a mosin or two, get a few mausers and then go from there...
Actually I already have a Yugo M48. I love the Mausers and will buy more in the future.The Yugo SKS's have had my attention for a while and I've long considered buying one(neat little carbines). I have trouble justifying the Mosins when they fire a different caliber that fills the same niche as the 8mm Mauser.
Still tempting though.
How does the accuracy of Yugo and Czech Mausers compare to the Mosins?

And all of my firearms have a use and are used. I don't have the luxury to stockpile though I wish I did. I also prefer to reload as those surplus rounds tend to be inconsistent, corrosive(requires extra care during cleaning), and sometimes locks my bolt up to the point I have to slap the bolt with the heel of my hand to open it. Not surprising since the stuff is 50 years old.

So I already love milsurps. Solid, reliable, accurate, and powerful. Can't ask for more. They're functional works of art.

kungfuhippie
December 1, 2006, 12:52 AM
My m44 was in the arsenal wrapper with a virgin barrel. it is very accurate for it's sights. I've got a yugo sks, they're well built as far as sks' go, but shoot as accuratly as any other sks. Your m48 will not fill the niche of an m44, you m48 doesn't breath fire:evil:

For $70 it's worth it, just look out for counter boring and muzzle erosion, an m38 I looked at yesterday didn't have any rifling on the last 4" of the barrel, super erroded.

I shoot 1970's romanian 8mm in my mauser, it's much better than any other surplus 8mm I've shot. The lighter bullet and higher velocity means they actually hit where they should at 100 yards.

270Win
December 1, 2006, 01:24 AM
Counter-boring can actually be a good sign - I've been told it can indicate a full refurbishment at the arsenal... from what I understand, when a gun is counter-bored, it often has the rifling re-cut also.

TimboKhan
December 1, 2006, 01:25 AM
I gotta tell you guys, that huge boom is one of my favorite things about the rifle. There is just something cool about something that small and old making that much noise.

Cosmoline
December 1, 2006, 02:10 AM
Counter-boring can actually be a good sign - I've been told it can indicate a full refurbishment at the arsenal... from what I understand, when a gun is counter-bored, it often has the rifling re-cut also

The down side is of course the bore gets wider and wider with each rearsenal. Some of the M-38's have bores over .314", so accuracy can suffer unless you handload it with .303 bullets or 7.65 Argie bullets. Slug the bore first to see what it's at.

gunny1022
December 1, 2006, 06:10 AM
The M-N bolt handle is too short. Any after-market bolt handle extensions made?

bartsimpson123844
December 1, 2006, 09:58 AM
Gunny, ATI makes one, but it requires drilling, tapping, etc. on the original bolt body, which you should NEVER do, IMHO. Or some people on the 'net do it themselves. You send them a bolt body(I would purchase another one off eBay if my original one had matching numbers to the rest of the gun) and you pay them around $40-$55 dollars and they make the bolt handle longer and bend it like the Mosin Nagant sniper rifles made during WWII.

Spiggy
December 5, 2006, 02:45 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Spiggys_pics/th_kvnM44.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Spiggys_pics/?action=view&current=kvnM44.flv)

filmed his first shot with the M44... He's graduated to heavier ammo now

Cosmoline
December 5, 2006, 02:50 PM
The M-N bolt handle is too short.

You just have to learn how to cycle it properly:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/cycle.jpg

Keith Wheeler
December 5, 2006, 03:15 PM
Is 7.62x54 really that much worse than .30-06?

My best friend has a couple of MNs, one a M44.

He hadn't shot them in a while, and we loaded up the truck and headed to the back 40. With my stuff, Uzis, ARs, we go through tons of ammo. A few shots in to the M44 and he looks at the pile of ammo we brought for it and says "do you really want to shoot this thing that much?"

Zeke Menuar
December 5, 2006, 03:55 PM
For your viewing pleasure

Mosin M38 flamethrower

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/ZekeMenuar1/cid_X.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/ZekeMenuar1/2.jpg

ZM

ZeSpectre
December 5, 2006, 04:02 PM
Yeah, now transpose that picture to a darkened 25yard indoor range :what:

Stiletto Null
December 6, 2006, 12:09 AM
People always look at me dirty when I rapid-fire my M44.

It's great.

Also, opening up in rapid fire (with my FN49) is pure awesome. Especially with a bunch of other fun-oriented guys and their autoloaders/military bolt-actions. I think the final count for all of us doing continuous fire, just ringing our bay, was...

-My FN49
-A FAL
-An AR
-An AK
-An SKS
-A Mauser

Good times at FETC...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/StilettoOne/CzechSR3.jpg

Clean97GTI
December 6, 2006, 04:30 AM
Compared to what? The gun weighs over 8.5 lbs, unloaded, that's heavier than most deer rifles. I've only shot Brown Bear 203 grain soft points through mine, but I thought the recoil wasn't as bad as my 30-06 Savage 116 off a bench designed for someone smaller than my 6'1'' frame. It's a fun gun to shoot, more accurate than my Yugo SKS, and recoil isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

Get a mosin carbine (M38 or M44) and load it with some old mil-surp heavy ball. Some Hungarian around 174gr ought to work. You'll quickly realize that the commercial stuff you've been shooting doesn't really compare to the old mil-surp. Even the newer mil-surp stuff isn't as bad.
The old stuff is hot and dirty even by Russian standards. The fireball is big, the noise is big and the butt plate is unforgiving.

Oddly enough, I find the Czech light ball to be a joy to shoot out of the short rifle. Quick, accurate, relatively clean and it won't destroy your hearing.

darkknight
December 6, 2006, 03:32 PM
which one would be better for hunting. i have heard the 91/30 is 11lbs compared to the m38 which is around 8. is a new stock better for reducing recoil. i saw read that there was roughly 15lbs of recoil from a 148 grain bullet any truth to this. i been looking into buying one of these rifles for a while now so i ve been doing the research and stumbled along this forum was hoping to get help. im looking to hunt mule deer, blacktail, black bear and wild boars. im thinking a 180g soft point should work right.

kungfuhippie
December 6, 2006, 04:19 PM
welcome darkknight

get both, at under $100 each you can shoot both and then decide (I have an m44, want a m38 an 91/30...soon). A new stock would lower weight and increase felt recoil. For hunting it won't me much recoil. 180grain sp shout work great. I've talked with people who have hunted hog, black bear and deer with it. oh a 91/30 has a much mildier recoil too.

RevolvingCylinder
December 6, 2006, 04:30 PM
I've had trouble locating Mosin's around here for under $100. Some of them have even been defiled with plastic stocks. The Yugo SKS's seem to be pricier than normal too and not in that great of condition. I need to look harder.

kfranz
December 6, 2006, 04:36 PM
I've had trouble locating Mosin's around here for under $100. Some of them have even been defiled with plastic stocks. The Yugo SKS's seem to be pricier than normal too and not in that great of condition. I need to look harder.

That's why you do the C&R. No need to find them locally, you make a phone call and a few days later this really cool big brown truck drops them right off at your door.

Cosmoline
December 6, 2006, 04:46 PM
i have heard the 91/30 is 11lbs compared to the m38 which is around 8.

Actually, the 91/30 weighs about 8 3/4 lbs and the M38 is about 7 1/2. The M44 is the heaviest of them at nine pounds.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSpec.htm

People probably feel more bruised by the M-44 because of the psychological impact of the increased flash and bang. In addition, it is not as well balanced as the 91/30 and tends to be barrel heavy because of the bayonet assembly.

I've carried all three around on long hikes and even by bike over the years, and the M-38 is the most totable. But the 91/30 isn't bad either, esp. since you can be a lazy frotovik and carry it over your shoulder by gripping the barrel. The only one I get annoyed with is the M-44.

kokogirl
December 6, 2006, 04:47 PM
Which 7.62x54R ammo gives the biggest fireball? I have used czech and russian. Russian had a HUGE fireball, but the czech has little to none. (both shoot very well though).

Where can I find the big fireball ammo???????

-koko

mio
December 6, 2006, 05:35 PM
ok i bought a mosin less than a month ago and havent fired it yet

its my first mil-surp rifle and i bought it mostly because it was cheap and the ammo even chaper (found $3 a box)

is there anything else i should know besides it makes a big boom and just what does C & R rifle mean?

bartsimpson123844
December 6, 2006, 06:53 PM
C&R means Curio and Relic. It is a license that you can acquire by signing up for the license. Basically, once you have one, you can order C&R firearms online and have them shipped right to your door. If you are interested, here is a great guide on how to get one: http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48235

darkknight
December 7, 2006, 01:43 PM
would a tasco buck sight scope be a decent addition to this rifle. i figure for a 89 dollar firearm a 500 dollar scope is kinda pointless. so i figured a more economical scope is a better buy. whats needed to mount a scope to these rifles is it hard to do. cant somebody with no gunsmithing expierence do it. i planned on using weaver scope mounts and i am almost sure you need a scope mount. anyting else im missing. plus do these guns come with cleaning supplies or do i need to plan on purchasing one of these.

Cosmoline
December 7, 2006, 03:23 PM
There are some scout style mounts available that sit on the rear sight mount. Darrell's are the best. Do a search on those in this forum and you'll find lots of imformation. The receiver scopes are typically PU type that mount on the side. Several importers are selling replica snipers with post-war PU's on them. I'd encourage new Mosin shooters to take the opportunity to learn how to use combat irons and a tangent sight instead of slapping a scope on it right away.

There are some kits that replace the straight handle with a screw-on turned down version and mount over the receiver like a standard Remchester, but these are problematic and most serious Mosin shooters consider them a waste of a rifle. For one thing, drilling into case hardened steel over the chamber is not the best idea. If you want a classic American hunting rifle with no iron sights and a good receiver mounted scope, get a used M-77 or a Savage.

tinygnat219
December 8, 2006, 08:27 AM
Kokogirl,

I find the Wolf 7.62X54R brand, and the Albanian Surplus 7.62X54R give you the biggest muzzle flashes. I have fired the Czech light ball 147 Grain Silver tips, the Hungarian 182 Grain Yellow tips, the Wolf, and Albanian and the last two have had the biggest muzzle flash.

The muzzle flash is there because the 7.62X54R ammunition is designed to be fired out of a longer barrel which denigrates the flash and noise.

TJ

tinygnat219
December 8, 2006, 08:31 AM
Zespectre,

It wasn't an M38, but it's cousin the 91/59 which is a lot rarer. There isn't really much difference between them. I didn't realize that I startled you with that muzzleflash, but hey it's a fun gun to shoot. Out of my carbine collection, the Mosin Carbines tend to have the most recoil followed by the M-95 Steyr, although that's open for debate.

Here's something for some light reading. I forget where I picked it up.

AK-AR-Mosin-Nagant Comparison:
AK-47:: It works though you have never cleaned it. Ever.
AR-15: You have $9 per ounce special non-detergent oil for cleaning
Mosin-Nagant: It was last cleaned in Berlin in 1945

AK-47: You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from inside
AR-15: You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from 600m
Mosin-Nagant: You can hit the farm from two counties over

AK-47: Cheap mags are fun to buy
AR-15: Cheap mags melt
Mosin-Nagant: What’s a mag?

AK-47: Your safety can be heard 300m away
AR-15: You can flip off the safety with your finger on the trigger
Mosin-Nagant: What’s a safety?

AK-47: Your rifle comes with a cheap nylon sling
AR-15: Your rifle has a 9 point stealth tactical suspension system
Mosin-Nagant: Your rifle has dog collars

AK-47: Your bayonet makes a good wire cutter
AR-15: Your bayonet is actually a pretty good steak knife
Mosin-Nagant: Your bayonet is longer than your leg.

AK-47: You can put a .30” hole through 12” of oak, if you can hit it
AR-15: You can put one .22” hole in a paper target at 100m with 30 rounds
Mosin-Nagant: You can knock down everyone else’s target just from the shock wave of your bullet going downrange

AK-47: When out of ammo, your rifle will nominally pass as a club
AR-15: When out of ammo, your rifle makes a great whiffle bat
Mosin-Nagant: When out of ammo, your rifle makes a supreme war club, pike, boat oar, tent pole, or firewood.

AK-47: Recoil is manageable, even fun
AR-15: What’s recoil?
Mosin-Nagant: Recoil often used to relocate shoulders thrown out by the previous shot.

AK-47: Your sight adjustment goes to 10, and you’ve never bothered moving it
AR-15: Your sight adjustment is incremented in minute of angle
Mosin-Nagant: Your sight adjustment goes to 12 miles and you’ve actually tried it

AK-47: Your rifle can be used by any two bit nation’s most illiterate conscripts to fight elite forces worldwide
AR-15: Your rifle is used by elite forces worldwide to fight two bit nation’s most illiterate conscripts
Mosin-Nagant: Your rifle has fought against itself and won every time

AK-47: Your rifle won some revolutions
AR-15: Your rifle won the cold war
Mosin-Nagant: Your rifle won a pole vault event

AK-47: You paid $350
AR-15: You paid $900
Mosin-Nagant: You paid $59.95

AK-47: You buy cheap ammo by the case
AR-15: You lovingly reload precision crafted rounds one by one.
Mosin-Nagant: You dig your ammo out of a farmer’s field in Ukraine and it works just fine.

AK-47: You can intimidate your foe with the bayonet mounted
AR-15: Your foes laugh when you mount your bayonet
Mosin-Nagant: You can bayonet your foe on the other side of the river without leaving the comfort of your hole.

AK-47: Service life, 50 years
AR-15: Service life, 40 years
Mosin-Nagant: Service life, 100 years

AK-47: Its easier to buy a new rifle when you want to change cartridge sizes
AR-15: You can change cartridge sizes with the push of a couple of pins and an upper
Mosin-Nagant: You believe no real man would dare risk the ridicule of his friends if he suggests anything but 7.62×54R

AK-47: You can repair your rifle with a big hammer and a swift kick
AR-15: You can repair your rifle at a certified gunsmith, it’s under warranty!
Mosin-Nagant: If your rifle breaks, you buy a new one

AK-47: You consider it a badge of honor when you set your handguards on fire
AR-15: You consider it a badge of honor when you shoot a sub-MOA 5 shot group
Mosin-Nagant: You consider it a badge of honor when you cycle 5 rounds without the aid of a 2×4

AK-47: After a long day at the range you relax by watching “Red Dawn”
AR-15: After a long day at the range you relax by watching “Blackhawk Down”
Mosin-Nagant: After a long day at the range you relax by visiting the chiropractor

AK-47: After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for a stiff shot of Vodka
AR-15: After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for hotdogs and Apple Pie
Mosin-Nagant: After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for shish kabob

AK-47: You can accessorize your rifle with a new muzzle brake or a nice stock set
AR-15: Your rifle’s accessories are eight times more valuable than your rifle
Mosin-Nagant: Your rifle’s accessory is a small tin can with funny lids, but its buried under an apartment building somewhere in Budapest

AK-47: Your rifle’s finish is varnish and paint
AR-15: Your rifle’s finish is Teflon and high tech polymers
Mosin-Nagant: Your rifle’s finish is low grade shellac, cosmoline and Olga’s toe nail.

AK-47: Your wife tolerates your autographed, framed picture of Mikhail Kalashnikov
AR-15: Your wife tolerates your autographed, framed picture of Eugene Stoner
Mosin-Nagant: You’re not sure there WERE cameras to photograph Sergei Mosin

AK-47: Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to hold your rifle over your head and shout “Wolverines!”
AR-15: Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to clear your house, slicing the pie room to room.
Mosin-Nagant: Late at night, you sometimes have to fight the urge to dig a fighting trench in the yard.

TJ

tinygnat219
December 8, 2006, 08:39 AM
Mio,
If you have a Mosin Nagant, is it a Carbine or full-length rifle? The Carbine will be relatively short, and some have permanent folding bayonets attached to the side of the rifle.

Some tips:
Brace yourself for the recoil, the Carbines can be particularly ferocious. If you have ever fired a 12 Gauge with Magnum Slugs, you are well prepared.
I would also suggest getting a recoil pad, or wear something thick under the butt plate of the Mosin, as it's steel.
You will get looks at a range, particularly if it's indoors. Make sure your target is securely fastened. I have knocked my target down with the shockwave alone.
Make sure you clean the chamber thoroughly before firing. Mosins tend to develop what's known as sticky bolt syndrome, this is where caked up dried out Cosmoline turns back into its liquid state as the chamber heats up. The Cosmoline can then jam up your bolt real good and make it difficult to open. It will open, you just have to force it.
For your first range adventure, get the Wolf ammo, you won't be disappointed.

This set of rifles is the pride in my collection, I have 7 Mosin variants, mostly of the Carbines, and I wouldn't get rid of any of them. Please let me know if you have questions. I will be more than happy to help you out.

TJ

kungfuhippie
December 8, 2006, 04:04 PM
Mosin Carbines tend to have the most recoil followed by the M-95 Steyr, although that's open for debate.


I beg to differ, unless you mean the old 8x50R steyr. The 8x56R was the most powerful rifle cartridge of WWII, not the 8x54R. According to surplusrifle.com the Steyr 95/30 weighs 7.4 lbs and the mosin m44 weighs 8.9 pounds. So a lighter rifle shoots a more powerful cartridge...taking basic physics

a=F/m

the acceleration of the rifle (a) or felt recoil is equal to the force of the cartridge devided by the mass of the rifle. we will go unitless so I can use stand firearm vaues (grains, fps, lb/ft etc. and substitute force for kinetic energy (ke) since I can use mussle velocity to find ke but acceleration of a bullet while it's in the gun is not easy to find.

ke=1/2mv^2
for a 206 grain 8x56r
ke=1/2(206)2300^2
ke=544870000

for a 8x54r
ke=1/2(147)2660^2
ke=520056600

so our unitless comparative value is

a=ke/m

steyr a=544870000/7.4 = 73631081 = 7.36x10^7

mosin a=520056600/8.9 = 58433326 = 5.84x10^7

so our final numbers are 7.36 vs. 5.84 the steyr has a more powerful recoil.

Cosmoline
December 8, 2006, 04:33 PM
Yeah, there's no comparison between a Mosin carbine and the Budapest straight pull. I can shoot heavy 54R out of an M-38 all day. The recoil is not a problem. But the M-95 with that ball ammo is enough to make me quit. It's on par with magnum .45-70 out of a guide gun.

Sleeping Dog
December 8, 2006, 04:34 PM
I can imagine a whole generation of deaf russian folk
It was a whole generation of dead russian folk. The survivors were in no mood to treat the German prisoners nicely.

Deaf? I think most of the infantry was using the longer 91/30 or little sub-machineguns. Probably not that many carbines. The longer rifle is much quieter and much less recoil. I don't know why. The deaf folks were probably mostly Artillery.

If I shoot the M44 in summer, I try to remember to bring the Past pad. In winter, I'm padded with a good coat. And good earpads. And sunglasses.

Regards.

270Win
December 8, 2006, 06:55 PM
It's on par with magnum .45-70 out of a guide gun

OUCH!

I remember being at a gun show last year and being SORELY temped by a single-shot .375 H&H... which weighed maybe all of 5 lbs. and had a VERY narrow buttplate.

In retrospect, that thing would have been a severe punisher.

tinygnat219
December 10, 2006, 10:24 PM
I beg to differ, unless you mean the old 8x50R steyr. The 8x56R was the most powerful rifle cartridge of WWII, not the 8x54R. According to surplusrifle.com the Steyr 95/30 weighs 7.4 lbs and the mosin m44 weighs 8.9 pounds. So a lighter rifle shoots a more powerful cartridge...taking basic physics

Kunfuhippie,

That's why I stated that the conversation was open for debate. :) I have an M-95 Steyr straight bolt pull that shoots the 8X56R cartridge. It's close, but in terms of FELT recoil, I believe that the Mosin Nagant Carbines have the most. This is personal opinion, which is what I stated in my previous post. Shoot, if you have more evidence, let me see it. I am Definitely interested there! :D

If it helps, of all the rifles I own, the M-95 Steyr is the most annoying to fire. The Straight bolt action is tough to pull back:cuss: . Couple that with the goofy Mannlicher clip loading feature:barf: then add the battlesites sighted for 300 yards :rolleyes: and it's easy to see why this rifle was relegated to 2nd tier service.
TJ

kungfuhippie
December 10, 2006, 10:54 PM
The Straight bolt action is tough to pull back . Couple that with the goofy Mannlicher clip loading feature then add the battlesites sighted for 300 yards and it's easy to see why this rifle was relegated to 2nd tier service.

LOL, the goofyness of this rifle is why I love mine. Its size, mannlicher clip keeps ammo together, and weight have made me consider taking it backpacking (well not it, but another one I'll care less about dinging up) . It's the rifle that will eventually push me into reloading.
Yeah, 2nd tier cause it doesn't hold a candle to a nice german mauser or a 91/30

Ad Astra
December 10, 2006, 11:28 PM
Stiletto, nice pic of that bayonet lost in M44 muzzle flash.

and for all the flash and none of the recoil (and over 3,000 FPS to boot) try the Czech short-range hollow core 7.62x54r ammo in the short MNs. It has a bluish tone to the flash and does NOT cause sticky bolt.

Stiletto Null
December 11, 2006, 12:16 AM
^
That's what the picture was, actually.

The blue tinge he speaks of:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/StilettoOne/CzechSR3.jpg

packnpundit
December 26, 2006, 05:15 PM
It's the day after xmas, and since nobody saw fit to buy me a gun this year I had to take matters into my own hands. Since I sold my sks last years, a crappy chinese one I brought back from long term storage. I had a few bucks to blow. For the whopping total of $89. Big Five set me up with a M38 carbine. Sweet! It has been through some arsenal work -good looking rifling, though not bright, bolt face resurfaced. Perhaps bolt was completely rebuilt (I'm hoping) recrowned barrrel, like new front sight and probably a total rebluing . The stock is in very good shape, with just a few small bruises. Receiver and Bolt numbers match! Magazine appears to be new or refinished with super clean springs and not a scractch on it or in it.
Receiver is stamped 1942.

This seems like a good value to me. What do you all think?

I'll be taking her down to Ben Avery range just as soon as I get a recoil pad and some Wolf ammo.

Is there anything else I should know? What kind of groups can I expect at 100m? 200?

mio
December 26, 2006, 07:22 PM
tinygnat219 what i have is the m44 i even went to 762x54r.net and identified it and the city it was made in (izhevsk). recoil doest worry me too much ive fired slugs from both my 12ga pumps and im sure nothing kicks as hard as my winchester with a slug or buckshot it made my 338 win mag feel like taking a break when i fired it.

i will be shooting the rifle this week probably on thursday since a few of us are going hunting and will stop at a gravel pit and pop off a few rounds when we are done. as for ammo im limited by location. there are 2 dunhams stores an hour away that carry wolf and winchester ammo but im really not into paying 16-20 dollars a box for it so im just sticking with the surplus stuff i got where i bought while on vacation in kentucky.

have you noticed an accuracy difference between the standard stock it comes with and a sporterized version? im thinking ill probaly put a monte carlo on it maybe change the bolt stick a cheap scope on top and use it for deer hunting if its halfway accurate

trickyasafox
December 26, 2006, 07:54 PM
i have my C&R, my first purchase was a yugo m59, then a yugo m59/66, then a m44 mosin. they do multiply.

i find following cheap ammo is what spures my purchases. . . as 7.62x39 dried up, i am now turning to 7.62x54 :)

ConfuseUs
February 18, 2007, 08:31 PM
I can just imagine two hunters at dusk w/ M38/M44s:

MN:BOOOOM! (FLASH!)
Hunter1: Did I get it?
Hunter2: HUH?
Hunter1: I SAID, DID I GET IT?
Hunter2: I CAN'T SEE SQUAT! DIDJA GET IT?
Hunter1: I ONLY SEE A BIG SPLOTCH WHEN I BLINK!

TimboKhan
February 18, 2007, 08:47 PM
haha, that AK/AR/MN comparison made me laugh, and I immediately copied and pasted it to all my shooting buddies....

Phaetos
February 18, 2007, 09:24 PM
This butt cover for said MN, where might you have gotten it? Is it just any standard cover I can pick up at Academy or is it a special fit I will need to order?

kmrcstintn
February 19, 2007, 03:45 AM
I recently got an M-44 that was intended for a nostalic & fun range gun...I got the bright idea to use it as a backup rifle to my Stevens 200 (if the Stevens hits the ground there is no guarantee that the scope will hold its zero); my local Gander Mountain started carrying M44's after I found mine & had it transferred so they ordered some cheaper 7.62 x 54r ammo; I couldn't pass up rifle ammo for $9/box, even if it is steel cased...turns out to be 203 grain Brown Bear softpoints...yep...203 GRAINS!!! I'm not too sure that my shoulder and my fillings are going to like the recoil...what have I done?!?

mattf.
February 19, 2007, 04:48 AM
Here are a few pics of me enjoying my M44 a few weeks ago.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2451/100b3271au6.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6830/mosin2al7.jpg
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/4863/mosin3jf4.jpg

mattf.
February 19, 2007, 04:50 AM
turns out to be 203 grain Brown Bear softpoints...yep...203 GRAINS!!! I'm not too sure that my shoulder and my fillings are going to like the recoil...what have I done?!?
The bottom 2 pics I posted are with that ammo. The top pic is Olympic stuff.

hcker2000
February 19, 2007, 06:03 AM
I just picked up an m44 as they were on sale for $80. I have not had a chance to shoot it yet as I need to get some ammo ordered. Then I need to head to the range.

Should be interesting though. I don't hunt but any one happen to have an idea what the biggest game you could take down reliably with the 7.62x54r would be?

kungfuhippie
February 19, 2007, 12:30 PM
with the 203 grain sp? Anything North America has to offer...including blue whales:neener:

Yes, a generic buttpad would work...I believe a small.

I took my new m38 and my steyr m95 stutzen out on saturday (along with others). I've heard so much about how the felt recoil of the mosin m44 and m38 is worse than that of the m95 (shooting 8x56r). I didn't believe anyone but decided to have a side by side comparison.

THERE'S NO WAY THE M38 KICKS HARDER.

I shot them both. I comfortable put about 50 rds or hungarian heavy ball (174 grain) and Chech light ball (147 grain) through it. But I could not bare to shoot more than 20 rds. of 8x56r. I love the steyr, I just need to start loading for it (light loads;) ) so I can love it more often:D

Need to shoot it at dusk to see if there is a fire ball from it too.

kmrcstintn
February 19, 2007, 04:32 PM
MattF: great pics!

when you fired the 203 grain stuff...

1) what was your opinion of the recoil?

2) did you notice any deformed or split casings?

3) was there any visible damage to stocks, stock rings, etc on the weapon?

I ask these ???'s since I got some interesting feedback when I posted a thread concerning this ammo: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=255835

hcker2000
February 20, 2007, 01:24 AM
Blue whales you say...

Hummm...

Now thats a hunt lol

Very interesting to hear that it is that capable. Looks like I made the right buy. Not sure that I'm ever going to hunt any thing but its nice to know that if I took it with me into the woods it would stop what ever is out there. That is assuming I could hit it :D

kungfuhippie
February 20, 2007, 01:42 AM
Not only will it stop whatever is in the woods, the muzzle flash with roast it too.:neener:
I read some articles on surplusrifle.com IIRC about hog and bear hunting with an m44.
fold out the pig sticker for the hog hunt. IF you miss with the shot you can just bayonet him:neener:

hcker2000
February 20, 2007, 03:58 AM
Not that I want to get that close to a pig or any thing but it is nice to have it there just in case you run out of ammo.

mattf.
February 22, 2007, 09:49 PM
MattF: great pics!

when you fired the 203 grain stuff...

1) what was your opinion of the recoil?

2) did you notice any deformed or split casings?

3) was there any visible damage to stocks, stock rings, etc on the weapon?

I ask these ???'s since I got some interesting feedback when I posted a thread concerning this ammo: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=255835
1. It wasn't any worse than any other ammo I've had through it. I did have a thick winter coat on though.

2. All the cases looked fine. I shot a few boxes of this last summer too and didn't have any problems then either.

3. Nope. Edit - I was reading through your thread and someone mentioned the rings moving forward...This does happen on my 91/30, but it happens with all ammo, not just this kind. Nothing ever happens besides the rings moving an inch or two. It doesn't happen on my M44 though.

KaiGywer
February 22, 2007, 10:17 PM
I picked myself up an M44 when i bought my Taurus. They were sitting there on the shelf for $99, so I couldn't help myself :D

Only ran 5 rounds through it so far. Shooting outside in 15 degrees with biting windchills wasn't too fun ;)

Do any of you guys have issues with using milsurp (corrosive) ammo? Anything in particular I should pay attention to?

mattf.
February 23, 2007, 01:30 AM
I picked myself up an M44 when i bought my Taurus. They were sitting there on the shelf for $99, so I couldn't help myself

Only ran 5 rounds through it so far. Shooting outside in 15 degrees with biting windchills wasn't too fun

Do any of you guys have issues with using milsurp (corrosive) ammo? Anything in particular I should pay attention to?
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu13.htm


Read that, it tells all about shooting corrosive ammo.

hcker2000
February 23, 2007, 03:44 AM
I just shot mine today at the indoor range. Fun times and a sore shoulder. I was shooting some white box winchester and it did well. Accuracy was hard to tell as even after 10 rounds (I let my friend shoot 10 shots out of the 20) I was still getting used to the recoil and noise.

I've got a nice bi pod siting on a paint ball gun that I converted to an air soft gun. I think I may take it off there and stick it on the m44.

Any one have any idea how far out the m44 can shoot with any kind of accuracy?

Oh and I kept my winchester brass. It can be reloaded right?

kungfuhippie
February 23, 2007, 12:56 PM
Accuracy depends on your m44. Most are fine out to 100 yards, some have a wide pattern at 100 yards. Others (mine included) will group decently (minute of person or less, offhand) at 200-300 yards. I really like the 91/30 I just got. I've shot it out to 100 yards and with surplus light ball is grouping alright.

Spiggy
February 23, 2007, 02:30 PM
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo.htm

covers most available ammos and gives you an idea of how much kick to endure and all ballistical data you'll ever need

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