Bobcat Weapons changes name to Red Rock Arms.....and presents new rifle!


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Evil Monkey
November 30, 2006, 02:53 PM
http://www.bobcatweapons.com/

At the bottom there is a rifle that looks like a 5.56mm FAL!!!!:what:

Start saving up!:D

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Correia
November 30, 2006, 03:25 PM
It has the stink of Todd Baily on it.

Dionysusigma
November 30, 2006, 03:38 PM
I gotta admit, the sight of the .223 FAL got me to drooling (and I don't think it was my home-made chili).

However, I think I agree with Correia. It's like being introduced to a supermodel only to find out she's a member of PETa. :barf:

kfranz
November 30, 2006, 03:39 PM
It is a 5.56 FAL. According to those in the know, it is not related to TB.

Correia
November 30, 2006, 03:51 PM
Who's in the know? Baily's companies change names every year to avoid the negative rep they've built up, and all of the related companies are always owned by the same small group of his relatives.

Mannlicher
November 30, 2006, 04:30 PM
so they have changed their name yet again. Hardly a move to inspire confidence in the gun buying public. They have a long history of producing garbage.

El Tejon
November 30, 2006, 04:39 PM
Must . . . resist . . . urge . . . to . . . take . . . Low . . . Road.:uhoh: :neener: Ahhhh, here come the snide comments about the gun industry. . . . Wow, if you thought that Ruger, Robinson, Bren, Smith, ZIG, Steyr, inter alia produced VaporWare, what do you call this stuff? Maybe EtherWare?:D

rhubarb
November 30, 2006, 04:47 PM
I don't know who Todd Bailey is, but Red Rock Arms? RRA? Isn't there some AR manufacturer named Rock sumthin or other Arms? Jeez.

jthuang
November 30, 2006, 04:48 PM
It has the stink of Todd Baily on it.

Yep. That's an automatic deal breaker for me.

If you have a good reputation, there is no need to constantly play the "shell game" with your corporate identity.

ny32182
November 30, 2006, 04:58 PM
Given their rep, they'd be lucky if I would take one for free.

CowTipper
November 30, 2006, 05:04 PM
I don't know who Todd Bailey is, but Red Rock Arms? RRA? Isn't there some AR manufacturer named Rock sumthin or other Arms? Jeez.

I think you're talking about Rock River Arms. They could be trying to mooch off of that acronym.

jagdpanzer347
November 30, 2006, 05:07 PM
There's a long thread over on falfiles about this weapon. The CONCEPT sounds alright, but the aluminum receiver sounds scary. Can someone enlighten me about this Todd Bailey character? A link or brief synopsis, perhaps?

-jagd

270Win
November 30, 2006, 05:11 PM
I'm also curious about this "Todd Bailey" ...

HorseSoldier
November 30, 2006, 05:16 PM
+1 on the drooling for a 5.56mm FAL.

+100 on the skepticism angle.

Thefabulousfink
November 30, 2006, 05:19 PM
The 5.56 FAL seems to be a pretty common occurance over at the FALFiles. They seem to have been mostly made custom by gunsmiths. I believe the current concensus is that aluminum receivers, while too weak to handle .308, are strong enough for 5.56. I have heard of one or two 5.56 FALs being built on the Williams "Alumi-bomb" rec.

I have no idea who this Todd Baily (George's younger brother?), is the problem with bad products, bad customer service, or shady business practices?

ny32182
November 30, 2006, 05:41 PM
The 5.56 runs at only slightly lower pressure than a .308.

Personally I wouldn't be taking the chance on any aluminum receiver FAL, with the possible exception being if it was built and blessed by DSA... and they wouldn't do that.

Evil Monkey
November 30, 2006, 05:42 PM
I don't think Todd has anything to do with bobcat/ red rock arms.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=237579

Someone posted 3 hk-94 sites in a row that has some info about how Todd doesn't own bobcat but just makes parts for them. Vector Arms uses special weapons receivers and parts for some of thier products, does that mean Todd owns Vector? Of course not. BTW, Bobcat is owned by some guy named Andy.

What's wrong with an aluminum reciever? The AR15's have them, I see nothing wrong.

noresttill
November 30, 2006, 05:45 PM
Ye, TB. http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff55501.htm

Bobcat is listed.

Jesse

kfranz
November 30, 2006, 05:50 PM
The AR15's have them, I see nothing wrong

Not the same thing. AR bolt lockup isn't steel to aluminum. An FAL aluminum upper would provide for a steel/alum. lockup.

Evil Monkey
November 30, 2006, 05:55 PM
Not the same thing. AR bolt lockup isn't steel to aluminum. An FAL aluminum upper would provide for a steel/alum. lockup.

Oh I see. The AR15 bolt is steel and so is the chamber. But the FAL tilting bolt is steel and the locking recess in the reciever, which isn't good if it's aluminum. Gotcha'

ny32182
November 30, 2006, 05:58 PM
The steel AR bolt locks up to the steel barrel/barrel extension. Aluminum isn't containing any pressure on the AR15.

The upper receiver itself contains pressure on the FAL, which is why those receivers are steel, and steel only.

BobCat
November 30, 2006, 06:13 PM
Having read all sorts of negative things about Bobcat Weapons, all I can say is I'm real glad they're changing their name.:)

And yes, it does seem like they want their new acronym to be confused with that of Rock River Arms, a reputable company that sells very good AR-15 rifles and parts.

BobCat

Foxtrot427
November 30, 2006, 07:25 PM
.223 FAL!!!! My dreammmm haha. If its as reliable anyway. Too bad they arent so common, then they would be a wonderful SHTF rifle. Since I guess they wouldnt be all that modular with .308 fals haha.

Ian
November 30, 2006, 07:47 PM
Didn't Tamara have a .223 FAL made a while back, using one of the Enterprise aluminum receiver?

Edit: Ah, here it is (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134560&highlight=aluminum+fal+223). With a Williams aluminum receiver, and made by a company called Meeper.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7423&d=1034402358

50 Freak
November 30, 2006, 08:03 PM
Meeper is not a company....Meeper is a guy that creates these quick change barreled FALs.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/JustaBlokeAnywhere/FAL007.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/JustaBlokeAnywhere/FALSten.jpg

And anything with the hint of Todd Bailey...Stay away...I don't care if he builds FALs out of gold...He's a slime bucket and I will not do business with him....AGAIN...:fire:

Zundfolge
November 30, 2006, 08:07 PM
Red Rock Arms?

Methinks they are trying to create confusion between their name and Rock River Arms (who's quality is regarded as high).

:scrutiny:

MountainBear
November 30, 2006, 08:07 PM
same S**T, different name...

kfranz
December 1, 2006, 07:24 AM
Link to the falfiles thread. While it contains nearly as much speculation as this thread, at least one member there has more direct knowledge of the circumstances than is posted here.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186241

No_Brakes23
December 1, 2006, 09:57 AM
While the idea sounds good, I have to say, it looks kinda funky. Cheaper than a CROS upper though.

nvcdl
December 1, 2006, 09:43 PM
I wouldn't invest in an aluminum receiver - would make more sense to make to use aluminum in the lower (as does dsa) and use steel in upper.

BrennanKG
December 1, 2006, 11:44 PM
This link
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=9&t=189924
shows the best rundown I've seen on Mr Bailey's/SW's affiliations, sister-companies, and faces.

I had an SW clone of an HK94. It ran pretty well. That said, I've seen some horrible stuff come from SW.

I'm currently considering a Vector Arms V93 (HK93 clone) and have been wrestling with my mixed feelings about products related to SW.


Thanks for the info on the 223 FAL. Looks interesting.
B.

dm1333
December 1, 2006, 11:59 PM
I read the link to AR15.com but it does not say why Todd Bailey is so bad. Can anyone give a brief synopsis?

steelhead
December 2, 2006, 12:01 AM
Poor quality
Bad biz ethics
Poor customer service
Troll at large

Number 6
December 2, 2006, 01:35 AM
I read the link to AR15.com but it does not say why Todd Bailey is so bad. Can anyone give a brief synopsis?

The long and the short of it is that Todd Bailey constantly bad mouths everyone else’s products and has been banned from almost every major message board. There have also been reports of Todd Bailey threatening to sue anyone who has talked poorly about his products. Special Weapons products have a pretty poor reputation as well, with many unhappy customers. The material to make the products are supposed to be pretty good, but the way they are assembled is very poor. If you want a laugh you can go over to Todd Bailey's own message board and see the type of garbage he posts.

http://www.hk-54.com/board/

You can also look at what Ohio Rapid Fire has said and what Arizona Response Systems have said about Todd and his products.

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/
http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/sw5/pagesw5.htm

dm1333
December 2, 2006, 01:27 PM
The Arizona Response Systems site was pretty informative, thanks.

Derby FALs
December 2, 2006, 01:55 PM
Bobcat Equipment was the reason for the name change. Bobcat split with Bailey some time ago for all the known reasons. "Red Rock" is a popular name in Mesa AZ.

Evil Monkey
December 2, 2006, 02:08 PM
Bobcat split with Bailey some time ago for all the known reasons.

...and people are still crapping themselves about how Bobcat is Todd's company, WHICH IS NOT.:banghead:

So I guess any new products coming from Red Rock Arms/Bobcat will actually be pretty good?

Derby FALs
December 2, 2006, 02:15 PM
Customer relations should be improved, to say the least. :D

Slimjim
December 2, 2006, 02:16 PM
..and people are still crapping themselves about how Bobcat is Todd's company, WHICH IS NOT.

So I guess any new products coming from Red Rock Arms/Bobcat will actually be pretty good?

Products built now by bobcat are good quality. They only bought parts from todd. Most everyone who has a bobcat likes it, or atleast, i hear favorable reviews.

Its not like a real mp5 is some magica,l hand crafted, gift from god, firearm. As much as the fanboys dont want to admit it, they're still mass produced, WELDED construction, SMG's.

lurkersince03
December 2, 2006, 02:17 PM
Someone needs to make a Wikipedia entry about Mr. Bailey. :) Or maybe a dramatica (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/) entry..

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