Doubletap .357 out of a J-Frame


PDA






jonsidneyb
November 30, 2006, 04:42 PM
Has anyone tried this madness?

Well, I am going to it but I am a little scared lol. I have so far probably run more than 500 rounds of Remington and Corbon 125 grain loads out of a J-Frame and it is not that bad at all but that is nothing compared to DoubleTap Brand ammo. I understand this stuff is really stout.

I can tell you I am funny about recoil.
I can shoot stout magnums all day out of K-Frames and N frames with not bother but .32 out of a guadian bugs me. I also do not mind stiff loads of +P .38 out of an airweight.

From what I have heard that DoubleTap stuff has be a bit intimidated.

I will test this ammo for recoil out of a 640 and a 3 inch 60. The 640 will be wearing UncleMikes grips and the 60 will have on nice hard HipGrips.

I do find it funny that I don't mind shooting .44 out of an N-Frame but I really don't care for .32 out of a Guardian. I need to sell that Guardian.

I will shoot each of them once and see what the recoils is like, I will shoot at a target but I am anticipating that I might flinch until I have felt the recoil from each gun once.

If my hand does not hurt, I will then run off the remaining round in rapid fire from each gun but I still might be shy of it.

If and only if this recoil is not too much for me, I will shoot a 5 round carefully done group of this stuff at 25 yards.

I hope it is not worse than a .32 Guardian.

If you enjoyed reading about "Doubletap .357 out of a J-Frame" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
November 30, 2006, 04:59 PM
Why would you feel the need to double tap any .357mag? Double tap came along when a single 9mm wasn't proving to be an effective stopper with lawmen. Remember too, that the second shot with a semi-auto is single action.

Take aim. Fire. One shot, One kill with a magnum. No reason to spray unnecessary bullets -posibly injuring the good guy. Magunum recoil such that it is, I'd be surprised if the second shot of the double tap is at all on target. If you're still going to try this, make sure the range master knows what you're up to. :cuss:

-Steve

steveracer
November 30, 2006, 05:00 PM
I carry a Smith model 60 3", and shoot .357MAG out of it pretty often. I changed the grips from the laminate hardwood "boot" grips that came on it for Pachmyr compac grips, which are only marginally larger, but handle recoil MUCH better. These are not as soft as the Hogue grips I tried, which promptly went in the trash, as they have absolutely no place on any of my guns. (feels like a hand full of play-do)
I prefer to shoot .357MAG loads first at the range, and when my wrist starts to shake, I switch to .38s. This usually equates to 50 rounds .357, and 100 rounds of .38. Recoil isn't all that bad, and actually less severe than my wood-gripped model 19 4".
Steve

jonsidneyb
November 30, 2006, 05:10 PM
No, not doing a Double Tap with it.

Shooting the brand of Ammo Called DoubleTap.

This ammo is 1600fps out of a 4 inch gun.

I have been shooing .357 since grade school in the late 60s.

I have just never shot a 125 grain load that will reach 1600 fps out of a 4 inch barrel out of a 2inch J-Frame. The 158 grail will be fun to, it is 1400 out of a 4 inch gun.

I have no idea what the velocity loss will be.

jonsidneyb
November 30, 2006, 05:20 PM
Range Master? There are no Range Masters in my backyard. I can shoot .300 Win Mag in my back yard.:neener:

jonsidneyb
November 30, 2006, 05:24 PM
Oh, this is just a test. I will not likely carry the stuff and I am not going to do anything to make the recoil more tolerable since this is to see what this stuff is like and I want to use carry guns. These will be open back guns.

On the 3-Inch J-Frame I will be using a Custom that has a sight made from me that is similar to a Novak and it will have Barami Hip-Grips on it.

runninmike
November 30, 2006, 08:34 PM
I haven't tried Double Tap but I doubt it will be any worse in recoil or blast than Corbon-I have fired Corbon.
Alot of the powder will be burnt in the air just outside the 2" tube.
My experience has been that when shooting magnum loads from a .357 or .44, that the 6" or longer bbl always gives more muzzle flip than the 4" or shorter bbl guns. This is attributed to the more efficient burn of powder in the longer tube giving more push backward and flip at the muzzle. A short tube can seem like it has alot more kick and blast because it is small and has less of a grip, but really, it is a just a huge blast from powder burning after it leaves the bbl, hence the huge fireball and noise. Try loading your short gun with some practical ammo that you can shoot accurately and repeatedly. Some of the reduced magnum remington 110gr jhps or 125 would be good for such a short gun, but it will still make a plume. I have mine stoked with 125gr jhp rem, and they give quite a blast from my 2-3/4" speed-six, I think I may try some of the reduced loads and some of those 135 federal jhps for .38 special. A great plinking load for mine is Speer Lawman .38/158 +p swc.
Best-MC

jonsidneyb
November 30, 2006, 08:54 PM
With what I shoot now I can do that. This is a test not a change in ammo.
I have heard the reputation of this ammo particular ammo have heard it is brutal. I just want to see for myself. This is ammo that I have never tried before. Doing a test is not about being practical, it is about learning.

The idea of all the powder being burned up in the air seems to be only partially true. I have heard many times that .357 out of 2 inches is not faster than .38 Plus P is out of the same length tube but when you shoot over a chrono it seems to not be true. You can still get 200fps more in an 125 grain bullet with .357 so more is going on than that. Yes I agree it is not as efficient but that is not the end of the story. I saw the velocity on one test of this ammo and it was faster than all of the rest out of a 3 inch gun which I will be using as well. The difference is I will not be trying to use it out of a 3inch N-frame but instead a 3-inch J-frame.

I do not see how it cannot recoil more when it running that much faster. When I read about peoples chrono reports this stuff does seem to be consistanly faster than the other stuff.

I kind of thought some would be interested in hearing what the fastest factory loads were like out of one of these gun. Instead of expanding knowledge everyone thinks I should do the thing I have been doing for decades.

The mass of the gun as tons to do with felt recoil. Have you tried a 6.5 pound 30-06 and then shoot a 9 pound one. There is a world of difference in the felt recoil. My first handgun was a 6 inch 19 back in the late 60s. It has always had less muzzle flip for me than the 4 inch version.

How do we gain experience if we do not try those things we have not done before?

Iggy
November 30, 2006, 09:10 PM
I'll be real interested in your opinions after testing these rounds..

Yure a better man than I am Gunga Din!!!

I carry a 640-1, but I haven't felt the need to try any Double Taps... YET:what:

Your range kinda sounds like mine.. My target for long range shooting is a windmill 12 miles across the pasture.. Ain't hit it yet, but I keep tryin'... :rolleyes:

Erich
November 30, 2006, 09:19 PM
I traded off my 60-15 before DT started making .357, but I fired Buffalo Bore's 158-gr .357s out of it. Worked fine - great velocity and not anywhere near as bad on recoil as one might think. The BBs are somewhat warmer than McNett's rounds, so . . . I'm sure your gun will do fine.

jonsidneyb
November 30, 2006, 09:21 PM
Thanks Iggy,

I will post the results on Monday. I am not thinking of changing my carry load in these guns. I just have to know if this stuff bucks like I have heard and to see if I can in a small way control it.

I really doubt I will carry it as a CCW load but I might use it as a field load. Iwill just have to see for myself.

jonsidneyb
November 30, 2006, 09:22 PM
Eric,

Do you know what kind of velocity you were getting out of the BB 158s of of the 60?

Iggy
November 30, 2006, 09:32 PM
I'm like you.. I don't have any desire to carry DT's. I have a load I am comfortable with and have been carrying it for many many years..

I'm like you, I am curious about DT's.. I have a Mdl 28 6" that would probably handle the DT quite nicely, but again.. I just don't have the need or the desire.

I'll let you take the punisment!!!:evil:

Standing Wolf
November 30, 2006, 09:47 PM
Take aim. Fire. One shot, One kill with a magnum.

Would that it were so!

steelhead
November 30, 2006, 09:53 PM
Double tap came along when a single 9mm wasn't proving to be an effective stopper with lawmen.

Where did you come up with that one? Double tapping has been standard training for Federal Agents for the better part of the 20th century. It was specifically taught with issued Model 19's in the 1960's and 70's. The 9MM rationale, regardless of it's perceived/actual effectiveness, sounds more like "guy behind the gun counter" talk. It certainly wasn't the cause for the development of double taps. Double taps evolved because a handgun, in any caliber, isn't the most effective tool to use in ending a fight. Placing 2 rounds close together is added insurance.

I'd be surprised if the second shot of the double tap is at all on target.
I can consistently keep double taps in .357 and .45ACP within 2 inches (sometimes even touching).

If you're still going to try this, make sure the range master knows what you're up to.


Why would he care? There is a big difference between emptying a magazine, or cylinder, and practicing double taps. One is called "goofing off" and the other is serious defensive training.

I was trained to double tap, with a .357, and I do the same with a .45ACP that I now carry.



As for Double Tap ammo, I'm not going to touch it in my 640.

jonsidneyb
November 30, 2006, 10:09 PM
The rangemaster comment made me think. I might be kind of spoiled having lived in rural areas for more than half of my life. It is kind of nice to be able to open the back door and shoot in privacy.

GPalmer
November 30, 2006, 10:17 PM
It's right lively in my Python, I don't think I'd try it in a J Frame. On the other hand it's largely a non event in my RedHawk. With the RedHawk I've fired three hundred rounds in one session at the range. Amsuing thing was how many folks were coming over to ask if I was shooting a 44 Mag... :evil:

Iggy
November 30, 2006, 10:17 PM
Amen to shooting out the back door!!

jonsidneyb
November 30, 2006, 10:25 PM
ummm, my shooting range is not quite that large. I only get about 1/2 mile then the cornfield becomes trees.

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
November 30, 2006, 10:37 PM
PM bback at ya.

I was unaware of the 'Brand of ammo'. I haven't purchased pistol ammo in 20 years.

As for double tapping. Yes, Feds were taught to double tap. Military personel weren't until ... Well, I don't know when. I've also known several LEO's over the years and many of them didn't start practicing double tap until municipalities switched to semi-autos. Double tapping a .357mag revolver would take a lot of practice to get proficient. Not that it couldn't be done.

I too, shoot .45acp quite rapidly. Pins. A full mag in 3.42 seconds clearing a table. While I don't consider that double tapping at a single target, it does demonstrate recoil control and target sight/aquisition.

As far as the range master... It's one thing for a LEO to go to the range, 'most indoor ranges have rapid fire rules'. A street shooter walks in then fires a series of double taps, Might get the attention of the range master.

So, I've obviously been way off line in this thread. I'll leave now before I dig my hole deeper.

-Steve

Erich
December 1, 2006, 07:23 AM
Jon, I'd have to dig it out, but it was in the mid-1300s with the 158-grainers from the 3" barrel. It was just a tad less (statistically insignificant difference) from what BB has one their site from a 3" gun.

Again, it was shockingly controllable. Great hiking load for the 5-shot.

GunnyBob
December 2, 2006, 03:53 PM
Have used McNett's hot .357 loads since their inception, and with the right Hogue's on a 4" GP-100 they are ridiculously comfortable to shoot. Prefer the 158's but he hasn't been making them for a while, yet the 125's do crank out a tad over 1600 fps from my gun. The better half weighs all of 135 lbs, and, with the proper hearing protection but of course, thoroughly enjoys the Double Tap line.

The size of the shooter in the fight means far less than the size of the fight in the shooter.

Or something like that I think.

jonsidneyb
December 2, 2006, 03:58 PM
My concern is that these will be the wrong grips out of the wrong gun for this load. We will soon see. lol

jonsidneyb
December 4, 2006, 08:12 PM
I was a little confused today. It was cold out so I didn't do much. Just 5 rounds from each gun. It was not that bad at all. I thought as much more energy as these had they would kick much harder than the Corbons. It seemed to be a tiny bit more but nothing major. The were very controlable.

Are these things really getting 1600 fps out of a 4 inch gun?

Khornet
December 6, 2006, 01:30 PM
in my K frame Model 19-4 6". Recoil wasn't particularly bad, but the stuff locked up the cylinder repeatedly because primer metal would flow around the firing pin and into its hole. Never seen that with other brands or my handloads. I have no problem shooting it but obviously not for carry.

I carry DT ammo in my .45, where it functions just fine and is comfy to shoot. They do seem to load their stuff on the hot side.

1557
December 8, 2006, 08:07 AM
The Double Taps are hot,but I believe McNett achieves that while still keeping the pressure reasonably low with his witch's brew propellants,whatever they are.:)
The Buffalo Bore loads are also low pressure even though they maximize effectiveness on target. Try it with a set of Pachmayer compacs and it shouldn't be too punishing.;) I use those o n my Mod 60,and they're good for o ccasions when I'm feeling froggy and want some recoil.:eek:

jonsidneyb
December 12, 2006, 01:22 AM
I will not put Pachmayer's on a J-Frame.

I would chop off my fingers first.

I would never carry a gun again first.

:)

I used then back in the 80s.

Nope....not on a J-Frame. Not ever.

Actually the recoil was not that bad with these loads. I had it in my head that it was going to be a lot more than it really was.

If you enjoyed reading about "Doubletap .357 out of a J-Frame" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!