[SooDoeNim1]

Hello High Roadsters.

After reading many of your posts, I've really come to respect your opinions on many an issue. If you would, please share your opinions on this personal matter:

As the title states, my brother-in-law pointed a gun to his head. The other night, he and my sister (newlyweds) were arguing, and my BIL got so frustrated he pointed his Sig at his temple. By the time I arrived, my sister had already convinced him to put down the gun. He left the house moments before I arrived, half to drive off his anger and half to avoid the awkwardness of facing me. Being the responsible gun nut in the family, I was asked to take possession of the gun. Which I did.

I'm really conflicted about the whole thing. First and foremost, I think taking the gun that night was the right thing to do. It was an emotionally volatile situation, and taking the gun out of the equation was a no-brainer. Thing is, it never should have been introduced as part of the equation in the first place. Do his actions, then, dictate that I never return the gun?

My non-professional analysis is that he did it purely out of frustration. I am certain he meant no harm to himself or to my sister by it. He was trying to reach out to her, to communicate with her on some common ground, but she wouldn't budge an inch from the saddle of her high horse. Still, waving a gun around in desperation, intent or no, is HUGELY irresponsible. There are better ways to get your point across, I'm sure.

In his defense, he agreed to surrender the gun not because he felt he needed to, or because he thought it was the right or responsible thing to do, but because he again wanted to reach out to my sister. He conceded the gun to say, "Here, I'll give you this. I don't agree with it, but I'll do it anyways because I love you. Now, will you at least listen to what I have to say?"

She finally acknowledged and accepted his concession, and in turn, she promised to listen more and to be less self-centered.

Sigh....

So, do I have the right to take away the only firearm in their household? Or is my BIL potentially more dangerous than some burglar or home invader?

Do I return the firearm once things calm down? If so, when? Does my BIL have to re-earn our trust in him to get his own gun back?

Or do I simply rationalize a way to keep the Sig 228? :evil:

[Triad]

I think you did the right thing. I would return it once things have calmed down, but I'm not sure how you could determine that. I think I would talk to your sister and return it when she's willing to let him have it back. Before I would give it back I would have a talk with him and ask him to think about how long the cops would have kept it if he'd done this in public.

[Jim March]

Oh Gawd.

First point, had you been there, I recommend in the strongest possible terms NOT ever physically struggling with the gun while he's pointing it at his head. My personal guess as to the right thing to do is stay about 5 feet back, try and calmly "talk him down". Close to that range in as non-threatening and slow a fashion as you can.

Why 5 feet? It's far enough out that he's not feeling threatened, but close enough so that if he gets pissed at anybody else and tries to point it at you, your sister or anybody else, THEN you make a grab at it! Especially if you have any clue as to how to do a disarm.

Hope that makes sense. Again, that's *not* based on any professional opinion, it's my guess as to the best move.

So what *now*?

Sigh. I don't know for sure. You're going to have to talk to him, with your sister NOT around, and try and get a handle on where his head is at. There's too many other questions that we don't have answers to: how rocky is their marriage? What's his temper like? Is he a threat to her or anybody else?

For that matter, in your shoes I'd ask myself if the marriage *should* be saved. Is your sister the type that will seek out somebody's "mental weak spot" and prod at it over and over and over until they crack? Are there kids involved yet?

The BIL has to understand that he simply must not force everybody around him to worry about his stability by making a statement like THAT with a gun. That's a "statement" on his part that cannot be taken back: "I'm a total lunatic who could be a threat to the life of anybody nearby at any time".

[michiganfan]

You absolutely did the right thing. At this point the man should not be allowed access to firearms. He needs to see a counselor.

[igor]

What Jim March said. Especially the part about whether the marriage should be salvaged... it takes two to either work smoothly or to deteriorate to such a point. And the couple definitely needs professional help.

[Darrin]

Was the gun loaded? I mean, not just the mag, but a round in the chamber? If he was truely just trying to get your sister's attention, perhaps he raised a completely empty gun?

If the gun was loaded, you definitely need to hang on to it for a while. If it was empty, I think he knew what he was doing (even though it was WRONG).

Tough call, mate. Keep us posted on how your future conversations go with both of them.

[Stay Low]

Sounds to me like you did the right thing. Don't know what they were arguing about and it probably isn't all that important. I think in addition to the advice already given, your sister needs to get involved in redirecting situations like the one that initiated this event. She is an important part of the equation. Though you never implied it was her fault, I know in my marriage if I don't fight back verbally with my wife, there is no fight. I don't know....just trying to help.

[shootist2121]

You did the right thing...But now you're involved whether you like it or not...They both need to seek professional help so THEY can find a better way to resolve their arguements...

For a newly married couple to fight is common, but to get to this level there is more to the picture than you or an outsider can see. I'd keep the weapon till I was convinced by BOTH parties they won't fall into the domistic violence route...

Good Luck...Hope your sister and brother inlaw are a bit wiser in the day light.

:cool: :cool:

[280PLUS]

i've been there, not with guns but with a wrist slasher, same difference.

yes, you should do your best to safely stabilize the situation with minimal risk to yourself and others

but you also should have dialed 911

on a threatened suicide call the whole world shows up with flashing lights and sirens. this is one of the best deterrents that can be used in order to prevent a re-occurence of the same scene.

plus, if things do go bad, youve got paramedics and ambulances already enroute

once the person knows youre not going to screw around with them or their suicide threats, they usually stop. unless the person is truly determined. the BIL sounds more like he's holding himself hostage to get what he wants.

but that doesnt mean he won't do it, it COULD have gone off accidently, given the heat of the situation

does he still have the capability of procuring another gun?

his license (if he has one) should be removed to prevent him from legally purchasing another.

if he gets ahold of another and harms himself or anyone else with it, a portion of the blame can be directed at those that chose to hush it up.

legally i have no idea what the ramifications would be but morally i know i wouldn't want to live with it on my shoulders for the rest of my life.

especially if he were to harm others than himself

by getting the event on record and to the proper people he can receive the help he may need at this time in his life.

he would not go to jail, he would go to the hospital

all the marraige counseling in the world won't keep two people together if one is not really interested in doing so.

a hard part of life to accept, i know, but it is all too true...

once things between he and your sister resolve themselves over time it can be considered as to whether he is still a safety threat to himself and others and possibly regain his right to carry.

take care, i know a little of what you're going through

:(

[Art Eatman]

For the moment, there's a much lower probability of outside danger than there is from within the house, so keep the pistol.

Talk to each of them separately about getting some professional counseling. This doesn't require a psychiatrist; there are many good psychology-degree folks out there who are competent. (A psychiatrist has both an MD and the PhD in Psych.) IMO, it's best to let each know you're recommending counseling. Regardless, let them know you feel (I suppose) that it takes two to tango and you're not choosing sides.

And, as said above, the question is legitimate as to whether or not the marriage is indeed worth saving. I have no way of knowing any answer for that...

At this stage, then, that's about all I can see to do. It's gonna be a "one step at a time" deal, and will take time for things to work out.

But keep the danged pistol. There's too much potential for one or the other of them to misuse it. Just because they're calm at this moment doesn't mean tempers won't flare again.

Art

[Edward429451]

I agree the guy (or both) may need counseling, but in no way would I call 911 on them. For one they only thing they'd just wind up putting them on a payment plan. Thats the police/courts answer to everything, make em pay.

Plus if they ever get it together and mature, you'll probably have an akward situation on your hands then, as the family member who called the cops on em. I'd say keep the gun but dont consider it yours, even if you tell him that its gone. Many people do stupid things and go on to work things out and mature some time later. Then you could (maybe) give it back to him some time in the future if he gets his mental stability back. (I'm talking a few years or more)

[jsalcedo]

I had a very similar experience with my now former BIL.
I'm also the proud owner of my BIL's S&W 629.

Once a person crosses a certain line beating up a spouse or putting a gun to their head for the sake of argument there is earning back that trust IMO.

If you can pay for the gun and keep it that would be best but by all means do not give it back.

[280PLUS]

the bs stopped once i called 911 and the person involved figured out it was no joke.

the cycle of "i'm going to commit suicide if i don't get what i want" is very hard to break, especially when its worked in the past.

a 911 call usually does it.

this was at the advice of her counselers, and it worked.

people don't grasp the seriousness of what they are saying/doing until they see all the pretty lights and hear the sirens. and all the firemen and paramedics and LEO's are up close and personal, suddenly the realization hits them that all these people care and theyre making a big fuss over ME and maybe it aint so bad after all...

there was no paying, they went to the hospital, the person got counseling,

in my case the "cops" were not involved at all beyond making out a report, it was all about the paramedics and getting help for her, not legal trouble to boot,,,

if someone ends up maimed or dead, that would be even more 'awkward' than, "hey you called the cops on me when i was being stupid"

don't you think?

unfortunately this individual was not interested in helping herself,

that has a lot to do with it too.

as of today i have no idea whether she's still alive, i have my doubts...

thats something ive had to learn to accept

if you haven't been there, and dealt with it personally, you have no idea.

[winstonsmith]

An old girlfriend of mine tried to commit suicide. She called me on the phone, and told me not to call the cops, while her speech started to slur and she started to faint. I eventually did call them and saved her life, but she was angry at me for it.

From my limited experience in this matter it sounds like this guy just wanted your sister to shut up for a second. If he really was going to commit suicide, it was probably because he was so exasperated by your sister.

They should definitely go to counseling.

This guy seems mature. The gun should be given back when he asks for it.

[280PLUS]

winton,

better her alive and mad at you than her dead and YOU mad at you...

this is not a case of who's ratting on who to the cops, this is about life and death, literally.

and if she really wanted to die, would she have called you?

remember,

women who try usually fail because it is a cry for help and they chose wrist slashing or overdoses to achieve the desired results, they have time to think about it, get scared and change their minds

men who try usually succeed because although it is still a cry for help they choose the gun or the rope, no time for intervention or phone calls to tell friends not to call the cops, no time to get scared and think it over...

and the ones who really are serious about it never say a word, they just do it and leave everyone to wonder why...

its always the last one you'd expect and if they don't leave a note of explanation, noone will ever know why

[winstonsmith]

I've spent a long time getting over her, and realizing those facts. Thanks for your support. I really didn't care about her being angry about the cops, but she seemed more angry that she was alive. Which hurt me...

I know she didn't really want to die. I don't think she does, however.

It doesn't matter.. that was 3 girlfriends ago.

Anyway, enough about this. I don't want to steal Soodoenim's show.

PM me if there's anything more

100TH POST! I'M A SENIOR MEMBER! BWAHAHAHHAHAHHA:evil: :neener:

[280PLUS]

i think anyone whos had similar experiences should chime in, we can all learn about this from each other.

i've happen to have been through the mill on this and i only hope my experience will help shed a little light on the subject.

btw - mine was about 3 girlfiends ago too and about 15 years as well,

i'm way past it...

m

:)

[jsalcedo]

If he really wanted her to shut up than the gun would have been pointed the other direction.

My best friend growing up had the gun to the head syndrome.
He married the most annoying of ignorant women on the planet.

My friend used to point his .357 to his head whenever they would fight he would cock the hammer back...she would cry...he would put the gun away.... and they would have make up sex.....


Gee maybe thats why he never stopped doing that.

One night he had an negligent discharge (no comments from the peanut gallery) ended up shooting a hole through the wardrobe and ruined a lot of her clothes.

The cops were never called on any of the occasions I'm not sure if that would have been wise he probably would have emptied his gun at them and they would have killed him.

[Edward429451]

This guy seems mature. The gun should be given back when he asks for it.

In the farthest stretch of my imagination I can't agree with this.



if you haven't been there, and dealt with it personally, you have no idea.

I have dealt with this before. The couple I know that went through it was young, immature. I held the guys 2 guns for about 3 years, gave them back, and they are both doing fine and still together, 12 years later. I'm not saying you're wrong. People are dynamic and situations that are similar can be very different depending on the psychological and emotional makeup of those involved. You ARE probably right for the situation you experianced. There is however, no one answer that is the answer across the board for all people. YMMV.;)

The guy I know who did this is very embarassed about having done it and made me promise him I wouldn't talk about it, hence no details beyond what I've said. Church counselors are usually lots better than 'State' counselors.

Just my 2 cents and worth what you paid...

[280PLUS]

good thing the nd didnt occur while he was pointing the gun at himself, that would have put a damper on the make up sex, i'll bet.

and you guys keep fixating on the 'cops', your not calling the cops, youre calling for an ambulance, the cops just happen to get involved.

yes, emptying your gun at the police would probably make you dead, unless they were being real tolerant that day.

i lived under the tyranny of "i'm going to kill myself" once, i never will again.

and neither should anyone else

incidentally, on court tv i noticed a case where the GF says "i'm going to kill myself" for the umpteenth time, so the BF hands her a gun and says "go ahead", which she does,

he's up for manslaughter now folks.

a 911 call early in THAT relationship might have made all the difference,

leastways, the boyfriend may have avoided being dragged down with her?

it's ok if you disagree, just don't pull that junk around me or you'll be going for a ride, alive in an ambulance, hopefully.

[280PLUS]

thats all well and good, but what if things went differently,

you would bear the brunt of the responsibility because you knew the threat existed and chose to deal with it yourself.

overall, i'm glad that particular case worked out the way it did...

m

i feel confident in saying that if the BIL originally in question here had all the town vehicles show up the first time he pointed that gun at himself, chances are he wouldnt try that particular approach again.

and all involved would be free of consequent responsibility should he ever take it further

[gharsh]

You have become involved and you may be the only level headed one of the bunch. You did what you needed to do. I agree with 280+ that 911 should have been called.

You could put conditions on getting the gun back, successful completion of a counseling program, anger managment help for both, etc. At the very least, this is terribly irresponsible behavior. Too many things could have gone wrong and once the trigger is pulled you cannot pull that bullet back. No matter what your intention was!!!

What reaction would you have if he pointed that gun at your sister? If he would have thought to point it at himself what's next? You, your sister, any kids, etc. Any uncomfortable feelings of being the one that called the cops be d@#ned. You may even want to consult your local police before you make a decision about what to do with the gun. You could be held responsible if you give the gun back and something happens, not to mention your own personal grief.

[Flashpoint]

I would heavily consider his history. Does he or anybody in his family have a history of being suicidal? Secondly what is his history with firearms? Has been around firearms all his life and is use to handling them? If so I would ream him out for being so irresponsible and then give it back. If he has not had much of a history then I would question his knowledge of how dangerous a gun can be if not respected.

I would also encourage him and your sister to seek counseling. If there is such a bad communication breakdown at such an early stage of marriage then it will never last and promises to be an ugly divorce. Good communication (knowing how to communicate) and each person giving 100% to the success of the marriage are essential.

[45R]

Keep the gun until he gets evaluated by a professional. In his state he should not be anywere near firearms for his own safety and the safety of your sister.

Mentally unstable people need not to be near guns!!!

[spacemanspiff]

one of my close relatives was suicidal for several years. made more than a few attempts at it, but was never successful. the last time he tried it he made some phone calls to say 'goodbye', and fortunately my mother went to his place and called 911 with a cell phone before he could do anything.
by a decision from law enforcement and hospital staff he was put in a mental health facility for a couple of weeks. ever since then he has had a new appreciation for life and is a much happier person.

psuedonym1, should something like this happen again with your BIL, i think that more needs to be done than disarming this person. it sounds as if your BIL is upset because he isnt getting his way. very childish behavior, imho.

[Baba Louie]

Family intervention required. Three "R" time (thanks Dr. Laura)

Remorse on his part? How does he feel after the fact?

Responsibility for his own actions? Or is he blaming spousal unit
for his actions? That'll tell you a lot about him.

Repentence? Is he willing to "do right" from now on? Daily?

Depending on how they/he handle the above, will tell you what to do with his handgun in terms of giving it back to a responsible caring individual or giving them the money for it to divide up during their upcoming divorce.

There is no way I would ever let someone jeopardize my sister's life in any way or put her in harms way as a result of me being too nice and understanding and giving him his gun back till I knew exactly what his response would be to the three "R's" listed above.

But that's just me.

Adios

[SooDoeNim1]

Wow, lots of responses.

First, thanks for sharing similar experiences. Although somewhat different, they do in some ways shed light on my current situation. Much appreciated.

The poster that said my BIL was childish and immature is probably correct. Also an extremely sensitive man, which definitely is a double-edged sword. Again, I'm certain he's not the type to hurt anyone, including himself. It's more akin to a child holding his breath to get his way than anything.

My sister is probably MOSTLY to blame. I tried not to come down on her too hard in my initial post because once I start, I start. She DOES needle and nag at his weaknesses. She's very selfish, manipulating, conceited, shallow, yada yada yada.... I TOTALLY feel for my BIL. That night, I let her know it, too. In my opinion, that night it was actually more important that SHE acknowledged her faults and accepted her share of responsibility (something she's loathe to do on a good day).

I'm not letting my BIL off the hook, either. He did handle a bad situation in about the worst possible manner. He does need to grow up. Overall, he's a really great guy. One of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Overly sensitive, if you ask me, but fundamentally a great guy. When I first met him, I was as suspicious of him as any brother might be. After I got to know him, however, I've often said how sorry I was that he'd have to put up with my sister's selfish and manipulative ways.

Again, to his credit, his actions show me that he is (at least on some level) acknowledging his mistake, and that he's willing to take steps to repair the damage. It may take some time, but his attitude is right so he can take as much time as he needs. My sister, however, is--get this--an MSW, or Master of Social Work. She counsels families with problem teens. She likes to talk down to everyone in her MSW-speak, and although she may verbally acknowledge her mistakes, I believe the root of the problem is that she's inflexible in her misconception of her own perfection. And I tell her so, too. I drop it on her like a sledgehammer.

I think 911 might have been a mistake in this case. Escalate things when de-escalation was called for. As to whether or not the marriage can/should be salvaged, dunno. I think he's a great guy, but the two of them need (and are going to seek) counselling. There are no kids (thank God), nor are they planning any in the near future.

I know it sounds cheesy, but I think they'll persevere because of their love for one another. I'll also try to be as supportive of both of them as humanly possible. It is family, after all.

I'm keeping the gun, at least for the next few years. Looking back at it ten years from now, it's the right thing to do. He can go buy another, but somehow I don't think he will. I feel like crap for taking another man's gun away (his only gun), but it's for the best. He said, "Here, I want you to take this and enjoy it. Shoot it often." I said, "Nah, I've got plenty of neglected guns as is. I'll hold it for you." From the looks of it, he's never cleaned the barrel, just what he could reach with patches, solvent, oil, and his fingers. I gave it a proper cleaning, oiled it up for storage, locked it up in my Sig 220 case, and put it away in my cabinet.

They're on their honeymoon right now. I think part of the problem is that both of them had unrealistically high expectations about how this two week span should be for them. Harps playing, floating-in-clouds bliss, etc. Then, for them to bicker (about the bachelor party, which was relatively tame), it's a long way down. I'm holding off on passing judgment til maybe a few months down the line. Should be a more accurate assessment as to where the two of them stand then.

Thanks SOOO much for your feedback. Makes my job that much easier.

:) ;)

[DMK]

For the moment, there's a much lower probability of outside danger than there is from within the house, so keep the pistol. I think Art has a real jewel here. Hold the man's gun for him until a danger from outside the house is more likely than a danger from inside the house.

[280PLUS]

and, it takes 2 to tango...

if they really want it, they both need to address the situation with counseling, apart as well as together.

and only time will tell the true story.

m

[Delmar]

I think the worst thing you could do is give the weapon back until you have some proof BIL has his head on straight.

It only takes a moment for him to slip, or whatever, and you get a ticket to a funeral, or maybe he misses and hits a totally innocent person 50 yards straight out the living room window.

To threaten to do something like that is not good-to stick a loaded weapon to your head over silly domestic issues really is not showing an ounce of grey matter IMO.

If its getting so dramatic in that house, somebody needs to leave IMMEDIATELY, at least for a while until they both get their head out of their fourth point of contact.

Any kids in the home? I hope for their sake not.

[Midnight]

I have had two family members commit suicide in the past. In both instances the person gave warning signs that they were suicidal, and the stupid people who were close to them decided the best thing to do was "hide all the guns." What a crock. It didn't keep them from killing themself. The gun isn't the problem. If your BIL decides to kill himself, he will. He needs help on a psychological level, not to be treated like he can't find a way of killing himself without that Sig. Believe me, I know.

[robear]

Wow..

2 weeks of marriage and he already put a gun to his head over it?! :eek:

How long have these 2 known each other??

How old are they? (I'f you don't mind me asking.)

Real touchy situation, but hopefully calmer have prevailed here and they can both move forward now.. Not a good start though...

It sounds like you handled it well... 'Hold' the gun for him for a while..

Good luck..

R

[WYO]

Let me get this straight. You went over to confront a person who was holding a gun to his head without calling the police? Are you a trained hostage negotiator or crisis intervention responder, or do you know the guy so well that you know he will put the gun down for you? May I be so bold as to inquire whether you were armed when you went over there? I think the next time you should call the police. The guy would have been involuntarily detained for pshchiatric evaluation, and the police department would have taken the gun for either evidence if the doctors commit him, or for safekeeping if they did not.

I have been on scenes where the person did not put the gun down, and actually pulled the trigger.

In any event, nothing bad happened, so I am going to assume that you knew what you were doing.

The next problem is that you now have possession of this firearm and the dilemma of what to do with it. You need to ask yourself if you can live with the consequences of what happens if you return the gun and something bad happens in the future. Your BIL could end up dead, your sister could end up dead, both could end up dead, or they all could live happily ever after and it never will be an issue again. Could you live with yourself if any of the first three happen?

You may want to suggest that they sell the gun and put the money to alternative use.

I hope everything works out for the best.

[Shalako]

People putting guns to their head over an argument???

What ever happened to just punching holes in the drywall?
:confused:
Never been quite there, but someone needs to learn how to vent a little.

I'd chuck the 228 off a bridge. Guns are cheap.

[Jim March]

I had a roommate years ago who was a nut. Not quite that bad, but still a loudmouth hothead.

I shortened the firing pin on a HiPower he had access to by 1/4" without telling him :evil:. Screwed up the wire cutter part of a Gerber multitool doing it, too. Lesson to all: SNAP firing pins, don't try and cut 'em :scrutiny:.

[Andrew Wyatt]

......that's just wrong, jim. taking a gun away from someone not responaible enough to have one is fune, but sabotaging a person's piece is morally reprehensible.

[Oleg Volk]

I am of opinion that it was a (stupid) rethorical point...I'd let him keep his gun but explain that the action was stupid and did not impress anyone in the way intended by the actor.

[Carlos]

If he pointed gun to head once, he'd do it again.

Keep the piece. He's not mature enough to own it.

[winstonsmith]

I take back my comment about him being a mature guy. what I really meant is that if he was responsible enough to give the gun away, he'll know when he should have it back. Give it to him when he asks for it. And tell him that you will. Treating him like he is stupid (as someone else said) will exacerbate the underlying self confidence issues he seems to have.

In short: From the way you describe him he seems like a good guy. If he want's to (G-d forbid) kill himself for real, than he can. Callous statement ahead: If he wanted to kill your sister (which I'm sure has passed through your mind) then he probably could, firearm or no.

-Jack

[benEzra]

Keep in mind that if you call 911, both your sister and BIL will almost certainly lose their RKBA for the rest of their lives, regardless of how much they shape up in the future.

Mandatory-arrest policies on domestic calls, coupled with the Lautenberg amendment and the ATF's stretching the definition of "mental health" related prohibitions, have unfortunately taken away most of the degrees of intervention between family intervention and jail/permanent loss of civil rights.

I think you probably did exactly the right thing in the situation.

[Cosmoline]

I follow a kill 'em or leave 'em alone approach

If somebody points a gun at someone else and threatens to kill them, shoot them dead.

If somebody points a gun at themselves. Well, so what? If they're going to kill themselves, there's nothing you can do to physically stop them--not without taking huge personal risks. If they aren't, it's best to just let them say their two bits and calm down. It seems to me that arguing with them or challenging them may just make it worse.

I would not notify the authorities. They may do nothing, or they may make the situation far worse. I cannot see how they could help. In this case the BIL would probably end up in jail for domestic violence, or worse. Gun + argument = arrest for DV.

But at this point, since you have the firearm, I would probably return it without the firing pin, and give the firing pin to your sister. That way they both have to agree that the pistole should be revived before it can be, and you don't have to be part of the discussion.

[Standing Wolf]

I think you did the right thing. In the same situation, I'd have taken the gun, then dialed 911. Your brother-in-law clearly needs professional help, but probably won't get it until it's forced on him.

I've lost several friends and acquaintances to suicide. His behavior was an indicator.

[Jim March]

Andrew wyatt: did I say it was his gun? Nooooooo...it was the gun he had access to. It was MY G-D gun! :) It was his favorite among my guns :).

He didn't have any :rolleyes:. (Note: he wasn't legally barred, he was just broke.)

Whenever he got pissed, which was more and more the longer I knew him, he'd unload it and endlessly disassemble/reassemble it :scrutiny:. While very visibly pissed off. That got old in a hurry. Once I knew the thing had a "customized" firing pin, I could just sit there and laugh to myself :evil:.

[Horsesense]

You say "Dude I really do like you and think that you are a good man BUT, after thinking about this situation, I have decided that one of two things WILL happen TODAY; I go and swear out a Mental Health Warrant on you , or, you and I go talk to a councilor who will decide what you need to do."

[Darrin]

I am of opinion that it was a (stupid) rethorical point...I'd let him keep his gun but explain that the action was stupid and did not impress anyone in the way intended by the actor. This is what I was kind of thinking. Depends on how loaded the gun was. Any ammo? Mag only? Was one in the pipe? Completely empty (clear pipe and none in mag)? Inquiring minds want to know....

If the gun was empty, he knew what he was doing and was probably just seeking the "shock factor" from his actions. (Still stupid)

If it was loaded, I'd say he could do without for a bit.

[Ryder]

I don't see the big deal about it being a gun, take it away and he would just jump off a bridge or something. Unless he is a danger to others with it I'd give it back.

I've never threatened to kill myself to get my way. That sounds immature. What's the logic in winning that argument? He was bluffing all the way.

As far as suicide goes I think that should be an individual decision. Should be as much a right as any other. But it should also be a very private decision, ya don't go around involving others so that they have to live with that on their conscience. With that in mind, I too ratted out a person who told me they were killing themselves, he had eaten a bunch of pills. It didn't take long to see that was no bluff. I didn't care what happened to him, I did it for myself.

[rebbryan]

NEVER give the gun back. tell him that it was irresponsible and you do not trust him with a gun and you ARE worried about the incident and don't trust him with a gun while he's with your sister. if that happened with my BIL (he doesn't have any guns though) i would tell him that and strongly let him know he needs help.

sell the gun (with his permission) and give him the money to buy your sister something as she needs a BIG apology. that is NOT acceptable and needs help.

"no soup for you"

[DingoDog]

I was an EMT on a situation where a man had done the same thing twice before. We weren't called until the third time when he pulled the trigger.

Not a happy situation for anyone involved.

Keep the gun away from your BIL.

[Midnight]

The frickin gun is not the problem! Is anyone listening to the fact that lack of a gun didn't stop my cousin's father from hanging himself with an extension cord? Anyone???? Yeah, they kept all the guns in the house away from him. He threatened to shoot himself previously. Didn't matter. He needs psychological help, the gun is absolutely moot.

[Jim March]

Taking the gun away is a statement by SooDoeNim1 that the BIL in question screwed up, royally, and that such "drama" isn't tolerable.

In that sense, yes, taking the gun is a good idea.

Will it prevent the dude offing himself?

NO.

Will it protect the sister, if he flips out even worse?

No again.

SooDoeNim1 is going to have to make some decisions here.

ONLY he can make them, he has more info than we do. We can give him things to think about, and if possible help him phrase the parameters of the decision. He should be asking himself about the guy's temper, any history of depression, what's his sister's role, can he suggest counseling, and of what type (hint: are they religious and might listen to a minister?), all sorts of stuff.

I think it's more useful to give him case history info, and help him "ask the right questions", than flat-out order him to do anything :).

That said, I will offer one bit of advice: I recommend telling this guy, in absolutely plain language, that if he ever tries "suicide drama" as a "statement" again, he'll be beyond what you can deal with and professional intervention including cops and a 72-hour psychiatric hold (at a minimum) will be involved. You must not allow him to get into a "suicide drama pattern" in order to freak out everybody around him at a whim and you need to tell him you will not allow that pattern to start.

[Feanaro]

I would suggest that BIL get some therapy. One does NOT reach out by putting a gun to your head. Such people need help.

[SooDoeNim1]

Midnight,

I agree with you that the gun is not the problem. Initially, my sister gave the Sig the "Get that evil thing away from me" look, but when I caught it, I explained that the gun was a tool, neither good nor evil except in the hand that wields it. I explained that if my BIL wanted to, he could off himself with a spoon, or a shoe, or a car. She understood that the important thing was to get to the root of the problem rather than its infinite manifestations.

It was understood by all that me taking the gun away was a precaution, not a remedy. Also, in surrendering his gun, my BIL was demonstrating the sincerity of his desire to resolve his differences with my sister. Again, not an end in itself, but a baby step towards it.

The gun WAS loaded, BTW. My sister said he unloaded it before handing it to her because he knew she was unfamiliar with firearms.

Again, that night, both of them agreed that marriage counselling was in order. And I believe they meant it.

I hope to God it works out for the two of them. I can still see the tears of joy on my Mom's face at their wedding....

[PenHolder]

:(

This thread hits a chord with me; I've dealt with a drama cycle somewhat like what Jim was alluding to.

This case with the BIL doesn't sound like a suicide attempt so much, but it's certainly way out of line from what I'd demand of anybody who I care about (or lived with someone I care about). On the subject of suicidal tendencies, experience has taught me to: 1) get help, and 2) trust your gut. While you may not be a qualified Psychomagician, it seems that there's never a Psychomagician handy when you need one, so you've got to do the best you can and not beat yourself up about it, regardless of the outcome. Maybe he's prone to suicide, maybe not, but one of the strongest indicators (THE strongest?) of a person who will complete suicide is someone who's attempted it before, no matter how light-heartedly they try to dismiss the past as a fluke.

I've observed in my very limited experience with a friend that the whole suicide situation is nothing like I'd learned the "common knowledge" about. A previous poster was spot on in observing that it's often "the last person you'd expect". There are usually warning signs, and they're usually unrecognized and ignored. Loathe as I am to casually involve the State in someone's personal affairs, I would call the authorities in almost all situations like this. If the person is "crying for help" or just trying to get their way, a little trip to the ward will cure them of that quick-like. If they actually do need the help, the earlier they get it, the better. Unfortunately, from my experience, it may take several passes through the ringer before things improve. I've noted complacency in some public mental health staff, a sort-of "scrip em and ship em" attitude. While that may work alright at the DMV, when you're dealing with people whose thought processes are detached from reality (but not to the point of gnawing on doorknobs or shrieking wildly), you can't rely on their better judgement to see through the day.

That's the trouble with the "if someone wants to off 'emself, far be it for me to stop 'em" outlook. In the case of someone who's actually "mental", they may not want to go through with it, but they're genuinely losing their grip on reality. (But then again, who's to decide if I'm fit to decide what's right for me? That's a tough question, and until someone comes up with a good answer, I still lean towards leaving the power with the individual. I'm just pointing out a problem.)

In my instance, as best I could figure out, I wasn't dealing with an "I'll do this to get my way" attitude; it was a person who was unable to effectively deal with stress, combined with a personality that channeled nearly any meaningless little problem into a strong sense of personal failure, leading to... more stress! This made for a vicious little feedback cycle. The damping factor which kept things under control most of the time, was sleep. Now, when you take this kind of system and add college into the mix, things get ugly: lots of hard work, close living quarters with strangers, and extended periods without enough sleep. That's much more stress going in, and much less sleep damping the cycle. All of this was kept inside and never spoken of, until the stress got to be too much, and the person just went Chernobyl. Seeing someone you care about (or heck, probably even a stranger) melt down like that, to try to reason with them as you can kind of sense in their eyes and tone that they're drifting off of the rails of reality, it really gets to you inside. I'm not talking about some Hollywood "I see dead people" theatrics, either, just subtle changes, like the kind of personality shifts you'd notice after being re-united with a friend or relative who had been away for a year. The whole thing was intensely ugly for all involved. (On the other hand, dealing with this sort of thing made whatever random problems I'd been having in life seem downright jovial by comparison. Yeah, I was really reaching for a silver lining.)

The creepiest part, I'd say, was talking about this all with said person after all of the lights-sirens-confinement-medication business had died down and things had settled back into a usual routine, to try and piece together what the ride was like from the cockpit. It took a while to get past the shame and regret, and it was creepy stuff.

On my list of "things to do if I happen to become an all-powerful diety or otherwise gain control of the Matrix" is to put a stop to stuff like this:

http://www.voicechasers.org/News/mkbobit.html

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V121/N70/70shin-timeline.70n.html

Anyway, enough of my babbling. Take care.

-PH

[rebbryan]

The frickin gun is not the problem! Is anyone listening to the fact that lack of a gun didn't stop my cousin's father from hanging himself with an extension cord? Anyone???? Yeah, they kept all the guns in the house away from him. He threatened to shoot himself previously. Didn't matter. He needs psychological help, the gun is absolutely moot.

if this was my BIL then i would worry about him, but MY primary concern would be for my sister, therefore the gun IS a problem. a gun is a tool, a tool used improperly is dangerous, and a gun makes it easier to kill. the BIL can do whatever the f he wants, it's his life, but my concern would be for my sister and i would take the gun and he would never get it back. the gun is not moot

[HBK]

Sounds like you have lots of good advice on the topic. To be honest, I don't know what to tell you. I guess this just serves as a reminder that love is a b**ch.

[SooDoeNim1]

:p Love is not a b**ch. :p

You're right about it being great advice, though. Some of it validated my own thoughts and beliefs, some of it was straight up schooling from the more experienced. And I'm grateful.

I told my sister that life often hurls rocks at you. For no rhyme or reason, just when you least expect it, and you can never completely prepare yourself for it. What you CAN do, however, is decide HOW those rocks affect you. If you do nothing, or if you allow it, those rocks will tie themselves around your neck and pull you down to the bottom of the abyss. If you CHOOSE TO, however, you can use those same rocks as stepping stones, or building blocks for the foundation of your life. It is a choice everyone has, in every situation, everyday. Make lemonade. My sister needed to hear it--in her mind, she was already allowing this particular rock to drag her down. And it didn't need to be that way.

Sorry for the cheesy Life 101 mumbo-jumbo. :rolleyes: :D

Again, thanks to all for providing invaluable insight and advice.

[firestar]

Someone asked the question if the marriage sould be save and when you can tell when the marriage is over, I think it is over now. A good sign of a marriage not working out is when one person in the marriage tries to blow his own head off!

He is WAY more dangerous to himself and his family with a gun then a burgular is. Sounds like a potential death may have been avoided by taking the gun.

[winstonsmith]

Uhh firestar, if he tried to blow his head off, he would have succeded and (coarse statement ahead) SooDoeNim would be asking about cleaning solvent.

IMHO the marraige can be saved if they both realize that it takes two to tango, yadda yadda yadda. They both have to want it, and it doesn't seem like they do.

[firestar]

Yeah, but I'm a qutter. If things aren't going well in a relationship, I move on. Good thing I get along with my wife. I have had problems with relationships like anyone else but I can see when things are not going to work out, it saves some time and a lot of hassle. No need to kill yourself over a mate, there will be others and hopefully they don't make you crazy.:D

[DrPsycho]

Pseudonym (I hate typing weirdly spelt names) - it certainly puts you in a difficult position.

If I were in your position, I would get the ^&*& away from them and have nothing further to do with them. No offense, but the whole situation just smells like a sticky predicament waiting to happen further down the road. In which there is no "right" or "wrong" side or action to take.

[riverdog]

Having dated a psychologist for a while I know how manipulative they can be without you even realizing it. They constantly play with your mind -- it's what they do. I also have a sister who is manipulative, although not a psychologist. My recommendation is that you keep the pistol until BIL demonstrates some independence and common sense by leaving her. I know it's your sister, but I question whether psychologists should be allowed to have personal relationships (I'm not sure that I'm not serious).

Once this happily married couple put this behind them, take your BIL shooting and let him use his Sig. If he wants to keep it at that point, it's his gun. He may prefer that you keep it, which is fine, but indicates they may still have a problem, in which case the recommendation from the first paragraph applies.