people complain about hunting. yet they eat meat...


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hockeybum
November 30, 2006, 07:19 PM
People are hypocrites. they eat meat, and yet complain about killing animals. they say its okay to eat meat from farms, because they dont suffer...

what i shoot i eat, i do not put any animals through any more, possible less pain than those animals owned by farms. when i shoot something, i first make sure its dead, if its squirming around, in pain, i will put another bullet in it to take it out of its misery, unlike farms where they let them bleed. jake watterworth also hunts and he does the exact same thing with what he shoots. we shoot to eat, yes there is a thrill and an adrenaline rush involved in hunting, but not so big a rush that i do not end the animals lives inhumanely. am i saying that there are not ppl who just kill animals for fun? no. i am saying that i eat what i kill, and i kill it in a humane way. 90% of hunters kill animals and eat them. 7% kill them because they are being attacked. 3% shoot to kill and leave them where they live. i am proud to say that i am in the 90% range. please feel free to reply to this, as to see how you deal with idiots, who tell you "Why are you killing ducks? Why don't you just kill the mean animals like snake and spiders?" (as Carlos Mencia would say "dee-dee-dee"

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carterbeauford
November 30, 2006, 07:22 PM
Some people would complain if you gave them water without ice in hell.

read that on here a while back. so true.

pcosmar
November 30, 2006, 07:28 PM
I think those people buy meat from a store and forget to respect the animal it came from. I still remember the first rabbit I shot. It was both joy and pain, but was great with curry and rice.

Outlaws
November 30, 2006, 07:30 PM
I think you mis-understand those who eat mean yet dont' like hunting.

Generally speaking, they see a deer as much different than a fat ugly cow. Which to an extent I agree with. But as long as we are not talking unregulated hunting like we did to the buffalo, I dont' care if people hunt....mostly because I do too. :evil:

mustanger98
November 30, 2006, 07:51 PM
I'm a deer hunter. I've also dealt with anti-hunting individuals. One of those anti's is my grandmother who went about saying "don't hurt the deer". My reply was "I ain't gonna hurt 'em; I'm gonna kill 'em and eat what I kill".

I believe people are so far removed from where their meat comes from that they can't see what a commercially farm-raised animal goes through. My grandparents grew up when you still slaughtered your own hogs and beef and my Mom remembers her grandmother having frying chickens hung up in the kitchen to be cooked. That was back when they sometimes hunted small game, but they don't tend to make it sound like it was any kind of big deal. Most of the hunting was on Daddy's side of the family and it was a bigger deal there. Daddy's the one that got me into deer hunting. Mom's mother is the anti, but she quit preaching anti to me when the deer started making such a big dent in her azealias; that's when she started saying "kill 'em all" and couldn't understand why I didn't.

As to deer hunting, there is still a "Bambi effect"... I was talking with a lady I'm aquainted with a couple of days ago. She asked if we had a good Thanksgiving and I told her how good it went... that after dinner I went hunting and got a decent buck that made some purty steaks, but didn't have the genetics to make braggin' antlers. Well, my friend said she's around a lot of hunters and she can understand hunting deer for population control and that most hunters eat what we kill, but she saw Bambi in the 1st grade and never got over it so she has a time with the thought of eating deer meat. However, she also saw what I told her about how Bambi still had spots so for the time of year, the hunters who killed Bambi's mother were actually poachers and Walt Disney was either an anti-hunter or just ignorant of deer.

Myself... I saw Bambi as a very young kid. It did upset me at the time. However, given time and logic, when I killed my deer Thanksgiving day, I had no remorse whatever. I'm not a hard-hearted kind of guy, but life and death... this is just the way of things. There's a big lopsided spike who's no longer running around with somebody else's half an arrow in him and goofin' up the gene pool... and my freezer's half-full of deer steaks. BTW, I used a .30-30.

kungfuhippie
November 30, 2006, 08:07 PM
a fat ugly cow

Some of us like cows, they are much smarter than many a deer.

Really, it's that most people have never given a thought to the fact that their bigmac use to be a living animal. My sister doesn't like to eat things that still resemble animals. She went fishing with dad and caught a few fish, wouldn't eat them, I did, nice big trout.

I've killed many animals that I've eaten. Chicken, duck, rabbit, jack rabbit, various fish (some were domesticated some hunted). No deer yet, soon. I will draw the line, if I ever decide to go coyote hunting, not gonna eat one.

What really helped me get over any hippie-dippy mentality was when in Ecuador I was invited to lunch and the daughter of the family (10 y.o.) grabbed a fat hen, slit it's throat, and had it in the pot before it was cold. :eek: (very talented) That hen tasted very good. If a 10 year old little Ecuadorian girl can get lunch ready like that any wussy American can.

Declaration Day
November 30, 2006, 09:03 PM
The Bambi effect is so true. Most of the women I've met who are anti-hunting have used Bambi as some part of their argument. And yes, almost all of them are meat eaters.

I point out that Bambi is merely a cartoon character, who was given a cute name and personality. Sure it's ludicrous that I should have to point that out, but I do.

I think the cuteness of certain animals tugs at their heartstrings, and those are the only ones they're truly interested in saving.

BTW I've never had a hunting argument with a vegetarian/vegan. If they practice what they preach I will respect their opinion.

Colt46
November 30, 2006, 09:31 PM
We are lucky because we are on top or near it anyway. Vegetarians that eat because they think meat is unhealthy or they choose not to is no problem. When a vegetarian starts to bust my chops about animals having suffered for my hamburger or any such nonsense that allows them to be superior because they choose to eat vegetables gets them on my short list really quick.
How anybody can deny someone else their choice in what they eat(Alfred Packer accepted) baffles me.

mustanger98
November 30, 2006, 09:31 PM
I think the cuteness of certain animals tugs at their heartstrings, and those are the only ones they're truly interested in saving.

Here's another thing or two I didn't say in my previous post... my sister, who I've told about before, likes to fish and she'll kill and eat what she catches. Thing is, she's not into deer hunting because she has a certain amount of squeamishness about shooting something "warm and fuzzy". But, once Daddy or I or some of her in-laws shoot a deer, she can deal with cutting up the meat. It's not anti-hunting for her; it's just that she's not into the part where she'd be the one dropping the hammer that punches 150grains through a deer's lungs and watching it go down.

BTW I've never had a hunting argument with a vegetarian/vegan. If they practice what they preach I will respect their opinion.

I haven't had one of those arguements since August of 1998... they weren't just vegetarian/vegan, but they were also religious fanatics. Even though they professed to be a type of Christian, they tried to lie and tell me squirrels and deer both have Mad Cow Disease. So a religious person resorts to a tactic supposedly against their religion (10 Commandments- thou shalt not bear false witness) to impose their diet they base on their religion on someone who hasn't converted. I ain't worryin' about 'em.

cracked junior
November 30, 2006, 09:52 PM
i dont listen to them people. they are messed up in the head. no matter what you eat, it is dead. take crops for an example, when the combine cuts it off just above ground level or a person pulls it from the ground or however it is harvested. that crop is now dead. so basicly no matter what a person eats, it had to die before becoming food.

i also dont hear them complaining about how the tree got cut down just so they can wipe their butt. even though there are people who protest tree cutting. but its mostly about animal killing.

my point is. it is a living object that died so the person can live their life.

sjones63
November 30, 2006, 10:01 PM
my next door neighbor asked me one time,why do you kill those deer,they are so pretty,my answer: because they taste so good.I believe in P.E.T.A.
P.people
E.eating
T.tasty
A.animals.
thats my story and I'm sticking to it. sj:)

spooney
November 30, 2006, 10:10 PM
I haven't had one of those arguements since August of 1998... they weren't just vegetarian/vegan, but they were also religious fanatics. Even though they professed to be a type of Christian, they tried to lie and tell me squirrels and deer both have Mad Cow Disease. So a religious person resorts to a tactic supposedly against their religion (10 Commandments- thou shalt not bear false witness) to impose their diet they base on their religion on someone who hasn't converted. I ain't worryin' about 'em.


Both squirrels and deer carry prion diseases, in squirrels its called Creutzfeld Jakob and in Deer it is Crohnic Wasting Disease. They are both similar to Mad Cow Disease

bclark1
November 30, 2006, 10:14 PM
I hear you hockey bum. I think veggies are out of their mind, but at least they hold a consistent stance - they just don't want to eat animals. I write them off as nutters but it's almost more respectable because they have a stance.

Meat eaters who are adamently anti-hunting, though, make no sense. No one's making you hunt. And no, I don't need to hunt, you're right, I can just go to the grocery store and grab a steak. But domestic animals have much crappier lives than game animals, and for a wild animal, being shot is not a bad way to go. Particularly for deer, I'd bet the vast majority of which succumb to predation, starvation or car strikes... they don't exactly make it to retiring homes too often. But yes, if you like a good burger, you're a huge hypocrite if you've got a problem with hunting.

There are bad examples of hunters who put these thoughts in people's minds. You should be ethical. If it's the norm to take multiple wounding shots at game, if you're not putting your rounds through the boiler room, yes, you've got a problem. While you should be sporting, it shouldn't be for sport - don't kill for the sake of killing. What it should do is put you back in touch with nature and remind you where all the food we're so lucky to have comes from. You work for what you get to a spiritual degree - it's a very special thing. I almost feel bad for anti's in a way, because they'll never know that feeling you get when you harvest an animal - the sense of elation and graciousness tinged with a hint of sorrowful thanks for the animal giving itself to you, ultimately reminding you of your place in the chain and how big and small and individual's existence is in one instant.

I apologize if that was overly poetic, or overly wannabe poetic, but it's true. Hunting is a heck of a privilege, even if it is out of necessity. Ultimately, the attitude I have towards the anti's can best be summed as "If you need to ask, you wouldn't understand."

crunker
November 30, 2006, 10:22 PM
I have not yet hunted anything other than insects in my life, and that's only because I wish to end their pestilence.

Killing sucks, period. If you think otherwise or consider killing anything but a last resort to solve problems, then you are a sadist or just incapable of compassion.

Hunting is okay since you have to kill something to eat it, which you only do to survive.

sinistr
November 30, 2006, 10:40 PM
people think that buying meat instead of hunting it is more humane?the exact opposite is true.would you rather run free in the wilderness ,procreating and haveing a fighting chance at evading predaters like nature intended or, live your life in a feed lot until you are processed in a slaughter house.seems like no brainer.

mustanger98
November 30, 2006, 10:41 PM
Actually, a sadist is someone who would shoot an animal just to see it thrash and squall from undescribable agony. I said I had no remorse for shooting the deer. I don't think that makes me sadistic. My bullet went through the boiler room. Now, there's a matter of symantics... this thing about a "clean kill" which, unless someone makes the type shot that would knock out the brain stem, would be nearly impossible. I say that because when you punch 150grains through a deer lungs, it's gonna be a bloody mess when the deer's field dressed. It's not so much a "clean kill" as it is a quick humane kill which means it's over as quickly as possible with little or no suffering for the animal. The kill is made with the utmost respect for the animal. In fact, the Germans and Austrians and even the French have a custom of "the last bite"... a sprig of leaves is placed in the deer's mouth as well as another sprig being worn on the hunter's hat or cape. This is done out of respect for the animal.

spooney, The lie wasn't in the existence of those diseases, but rather in the geographic distribution of those diseases. I've still not heard of cases in or near my part of Georgia. I haven't heard of cases around my relatives in Alabama either.

bclarck1, I don't consider what you said to be overly poetic or wannabe poetic. There's a good bit of truth in it. Did you ever read Louis L'Amour's "Last of the Breed"? The main character was an Indian stuck in Siberia... hunted to survive and his people's custom was to place their hand on the animal's head and say something like "because of your sacrifice, I and my people will eat". To be honest, that's the feeling I got with my kill. It's not that the adrenaline rush isn't there, but that that's not so much what it's about.

Leanwolf
November 30, 2006, 10:47 PM
COLT 46 - "... Alfred Packer accepted...

:D :D :D :D

You must be from Colorado.

Remember the "Alfred E. Packer Commemorative Grill" at the U. of Colo. commisary, before the left wing politically correct idiots forced them to take down the sign???? :uhoh:

L.W.

ndh87
November 30, 2006, 10:49 PM
they say its okay to eat meat from farms, because they dont suffer...

neither does the deer if your shot is good. They just dont like hunting because it involves guns.

RevolvingCylinder
November 30, 2006, 11:01 PM
I usually don't hunt deer because I don't care for the taste of venison. I generally hunt turkey and bear. I just love the taste of bear meat.

Kim
November 30, 2006, 11:23 PM
I think some people who eat meat but are adament anti=hunting sorts are really upset that you have the guts and know how to do what they can not do. It makes them have to admit to themselves they do not really have what it takes to survive and they know they have to depend on someone else. They dislike you for their imperfection.

RevolvingCylinder
November 30, 2006, 11:30 PM
I think some people who eat meat but are adament anti=hunting sorts are really upset that you have the guts and know how to do what they can not do. It makes them have to admit to themselves they do not really have what it takes to survive and they know they have to depend on someone else. They dislike you for their imperfection.
You mean the same reason why firearm owners are hated?

MDHunter
November 30, 2006, 11:36 PM
This is The High Road, so I'll apologize in advance for my rant...

Hockeybum - the short and easy answer often is, people complain about, or disapprove of, that which they don't understand, or don't do themselves. People who eat meat, yet think hunting is wrong, are about as hypocritical as it gets! They don't mind "someone else" doing the dirty work and killing/cutting up their meat for them; yet they don't approve of, or believe in, those who opt to catch/kill their own meat.

The next time someone comments about this to you, engage them in the following conversation:

"Let's look at the path your hamburger, and my deer steak, took to get to the table. First, my deersteak. This animal died in the woods (or fields, or whatever), in its natural habitat, and if the bow or rifle shot was a good one, there's a good chance that it suffered very little. It may have felt some shock for several seconds, but that could be the extent of it.

Now let's chart the path for your burger to the table. If the cow was killed at a slaughterhouse, it could smell the blood of the animals that were killed before it; it could hear the screams of the other animals; and it had to wait among a bunch of panic-stricken cows, for its turn to be slaughtered. In some cases, the cow is not totally dead when machines do things like chop off its tail, peel off it's hide, and disembowel it. Would you consider that a relatively pain-free, stress-free way to die?"

As for vegetarians - if they do it because they don't believe in eating meat, more power to them! If someone does it because they believe that being a vegetarian doesn't harm any animals, that's a much bigger stretch. There was a study cited a year or so back on this Forum, by the University of Oregon or Washibgton I believe, that demonstrated that a vegetarian lifestyle actually killed more voles, shrews, and some species of birds, due to the shallow-till crop harvesting method employed or something similar.

As for hunters and fishermen being the ultimate conversationists - I don't go there, because this one is usually WAY too much for them to comprehend. Getting them to understand that we probably love the animals we hunt more than they do, is just too much to ask.

Sorry again for the rant guys and gals, and good hunting!

Michael

MDHunter
November 30, 2006, 11:39 PM
Quote:
I think some people who eat meat but are adament anti=hunting sorts are really upset that you have the guts and know how to do what they can not do. It makes them have to admit to themselves they do not really have what it takes to survive and they know they have to depend on someone else. They dislike you for their imperfection.

You mean the same reason why firearm owners are hated?


THAT, my friend, is called hitting the nail right on the head.

Michael

cbsbyte
November 30, 2006, 11:40 PM
I am neither for hunting or against it. I grew up in a rural area with plenty of hunters(except for my family) but I took interest into the sport. I fully understand hunters today, are under alot of pressure by groups who want to ban it the sport. They just don't like killing animals, this might make them hypocrites but it does not help the situation calling people who disagree with you as nuts. With the urbanization of America, the decrease of rural wild lands, and the steady decline in hunters, the time is ticking on traditional sports such as hunting, fishing, traping etc. It might best for hunters to funnel this anger towards non hunters, and try to use the same energy to positivley promote their sport to urban areas. I bet it will reap better dividends in the end then just complaning about the anti hunters on the net.

ArfinGreebly
December 1, 2006, 12:00 AM
Well, I don't know about the rest of y'all . . .

But when I have to hunt the Lesser Spotted Evil Critter there ain't no way in heck I'm gonna eat what I shoot. That would just be gross.

Husker1911
December 1, 2006, 12:25 AM
I believe it's the inimitable Ted Nugent who has promoted one day a year when EVERYONE harvests an animal. A day that everyone kills and prepares an animal, and then eats it. While I'm not the biggest Nuge fan around, I heartily subscribe to this idea!

moewadle
December 1, 2006, 12:32 AM
right there beside the potatoes and gravy. Isn't that how the saying goes?:cool:

ChefJeff1
December 1, 2006, 12:33 AM
I killed my first deer here. I read "Fastfood Nation" and it changed my life. I eat mostly organic foods and exercise. My deer did not suffer. He lived a free life in the mountains of Idaho. Farmed animals suffer for their entire life. My deer died for my cause and he has my respect. Jeff

LadySmith
December 1, 2006, 05:44 AM
Hockeybum:
People are hypocrites. they eat meat, and yet complain about killing animals.
Iím one of those people hanging in limbo between becoming a hunter or a vegetarian. I donít complain about hunting or hunters, though. You all brought up some points that hit close to home, such as:

Mustanger98:
I believe people are so far removed from where their meat comes from that they can't see what a commercially farm-raised animal goes through.Thatís me. Except for fish, Iíve seen animals killed, usually in horrible & brutal ways, but only once for food and Iíve never seen the complete process. That one time for food was when I was very small, visiting my great grandmother and she found me in her pen playing with the chickens. She told me to pick one, and I did thinking she was going to give it to me as a pet. She said, ďGive it here.Ē So I handed it to her and she twirled it around really fast. My ďpetĒ chicken went sailing through the air, hit the ground running and I chased after it. Found it huddled under a log, pulled it out and discovered its head was gone! :what: Spent the rest of the afternoon vomiting and crying. Had the freshest fried chicken for dinner that night but never connected the two until much later.
Flash forward to the present. Bought and cooked a store-bought turkey for Thanksgiving. Almost wrecked my car gawking at a flock of wild turkeys on my way home from work. Canít grasp the concept that those ones walking around and flying past are edible. The one from the store is meat, those others on the hillside are animals.
Mustanger98:
Thing is, she's not into deer hunting because she has a certain amount of squeamishness about shooting something "warm and fuzzy".Yep, thatís me again. Came home a couple of weeks ago and thereís a young buck sauntering past my front door. Iíve seen a bobcat, feral cats, coyotes walking down my road, foxes, a flock of quail in my backyard, lots of squirrels, jackrabbits and the occasional brown bunny. Fowl aplenty. Yet the only things I want to grab are binoculars and a camera, not my rifles. Those are animals. What I have in my freezer from Safeway is meat.
HoweverÖ
As Iíve written before, Iíd like to try hunting at least once just to know the entire story from beginning to end. Iíve been lacking the opportunity, the time and know-how to do it. And to be perfectly honest, the main thing holding me back is fear. Itís keeping me from making the time, finding the opportunity and gaining the experience. Just when I take a deep breath and think, yes, I can do this, I read about shot & wounded animals in pain and squirming gut piles. Eeuuwww!!! :eek: And there I go back to my fear-filled and lazy little ďcivilizedĒ cubby hole stocked with USDA approved stuff.

Colt46
December 1, 2006, 06:27 AM
I Did happen to rent Parker and Stone's musical(the southpark guys) "Alfred Packer-The Musical". Why it didn't win an Oscar was pretty apparant, but I've always like oddball films

dfaugh
December 1, 2006, 09:13 AM
BTW I've never had a hunting argument with a vegetarian/vegan.

Actually I have. My nephews wife is a vegetarian, and will gladly dicuss why she won't eat any meat, of any kind, in a rational non-confrontational way. She doesn't try to "convert" anyone or anything like that, even my nephew, who east meat when they go out, and occasionally some at home (but she won't touch it).

BUT, we busted her for wearing leather (shoes and handbags), to which she replied "but they couldn't have gotten the hides, if you hadn't eaten them!" At least a slighly more comprehensible response than you usually might get.:)

wacki
December 1, 2006, 09:21 AM
they say its okay to eat meat from farms, because they dont suffer...


Maybe if they pay EXTRA for free range animals but nobody does that. Your run of the mill commercial meat farm is a very disgusting and brutal practice. I'm sure everyone here hates PETA but you should make them read one of the PETA chicken articles.

Cromlech
December 1, 2006, 09:52 AM
. . .when I have to hunt the Lesser Spotted Evil Critter there ain't no way in heck I'm gonna eat what I shoot. That would just be gross.

Just use some Tobasco sauce, and even the nastiest home-invader becomes palatable. :D

TexasRifleman
December 1, 2006, 09:54 AM
Canít grasp the concept that those ones walking around and flying past are edible. The one from the store is meat, those others on the hillside are animals.

My neighbor has this same problem. Won't eat meat and freaks out if the discussion of burgers or steak comes up.

She, however, has NO problem with her Coach purse, leather lined Suburban and Steve Madden leather shoes.

I reminded her that her purse was once the wrapper for my meat and she pretty much lost it. She had never made that conneciton either, but I notice she's still wearing shoes and carrying purses. :evil:

real_name
December 1, 2006, 10:08 AM
I'm vegetarian since 1985, which was when CJD/Mad Cow disease came to my attention back in Britain. I stopped eating beef, the rest followed quite easily. 21 years later I'm 6'2" and 220 lbs, I work in construction, I'm healthy. Being vegetarian isn't a death sentence.

Anyway, I have a LOT more respect for those that kill their own meat than those that get it at Kroger, irradiated cuts of who knows what?
It is, to paraphrase the Native Americans, closer to the earth to only kill as much as you will eat. It is also more healthy, as you are avoiding all the growth hormones. It is a lot better for the animal too if that is of any concern.

Read 'Fast Food Nation'.
Read 'The Omnivore's Dilemma'.

Neither of these books are pro-vegetarian, they are anti-meat industry. They would be of great interest (IMO) to hunters.

If you hunt you are eating humanely killed, organic, prime meat.
That stuff costs a fortune in the whole foods store.

bakert
December 1, 2006, 10:16 AM
Quote by Declaration Day> "Bambi is merely a cartoon character, who was given a cute name and personality." Nothing ludicrous about that. I've pointed that out to numerous people when they bring the subject up. I don't usually argue with people over that, try to just walk away. Wonder what they'd do if a steak or lb of hamburger had those big old brown eyes??:uhoh:

highlander 5
December 1, 2006, 10:35 AM
I am not a hunter but I do support the right to hunt and have had the same "Bambi" arguments and to no avail
I might add.
When I was a kid staying with my grandparents it was always "go to the hen house and get the eggs for breakfast' in the morning as a kid this was fun for me.
Watched my grandfather kill chickens for supper,grand mother would have fits as I stood watching my GF cut off their heads. We had horses,cows and at least 3 pigs
as i got older I found out two where for us to eat 1 for the butcher to slaughter and cut up the other 2.
Gee come to think of it maybe that's why I turned out the way I am:what: :what: :) :) :)

quatin
December 1, 2006, 10:41 AM
Taking free range meat is more humane than buying caged meat. However, it's embarassing when people make a HUGE fuss about how deer are dangerous and kill people by standing in roads and causing "accidents". Therefore it's a gift to humanity when you kill a deer. Is it not an over reaction to state deer as people killers? Should we start killing bad drivers and people with bad jaywalking haibts?

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 11:04 AM
Hunting is one thing, but it only accounts for a tiny fraction of the meat consumed in this country.

Do you think it's okay for animals to suffer? How much animal suffering do you think the meat industry in this country causes? If you haven't really looked into it, what do you think the chances are that it's a lot worse than you think?

What do you get out of eating meat? If you think you can't be healthy without animals, what about vegetarian athletes and the millions of people who live this lifestyle? How much of it is just going with the flow and doing what's normal?

Are those benefits worth the suffering? If you really know about the suffering and you really understand the benefits, I would say you at least make logical sense, if not moral. If you don't, I would say hypocrite is exactly the right word.

pax
December 1, 2006, 11:17 AM
I have a vegetarian friend who hunts. Her family eats meat, she doesn't. (And ain't stereotypes grand?)

I'm sure everyone here hates PETA but you should make them read one of the PETA chicken articles.

Actually, the PETA chicken articles aren't exactly accurate. We've got several friends who run chicken farms, and these farms are nowhere near as icky as PETA wants everyone to believe.

Similarly, beef slaughterhouses may be hideous awful places -- I don't know, never having toured one -- but I do know that I sure see a lot of beef animals wandering around the fields around here. The cattle don't spend their entire lives in the slaughterhouse, after all. Whoda thunkit?

pax

Mikee Loxxer
December 1, 2006, 11:17 AM
Cows smarter that deer? Hardly. I am from cattle country and a deer hunter as well and can tell you from first hand experience that this is simply not the case. Cows are simply meat with feet which are bred to be docile and easy to manipulate (the occasional bull being the exception of course). Deer on the other hand (especially old bucks) have to be smart to survive.

ID_shooting
December 1, 2006, 11:58 AM
My wife has one of those Ultra Liberal, No Meat Eating, Micheal Moore Worshiping friends.

I simply told her that I will respect her if she repects me in return. We have her over for dinner now and then. I will prepare her food seperate from ours to ensure it does not come in contact with our meat, she knows this and trusts it. She has never had a non-civil discussion about it and has yet to comment negatively about our killing of animals.

Can't say I like how she votes, but she is a plesant person to be around.

moewadle
December 1, 2006, 12:03 PM
I have tried to encourage tolerance, understanding, and NON-STEREOTYPING from everyone. The post just above this one sounds like a good example. Certain subjects like hunting, guns, religion, politics, etc can be pretty controversial. Part of being in a free society, that we have fought to protect for over 200 years, is the freedom to practice, to a great extent, our own individual beliefs and we need to respect other people's RIGHT to practice those beliefs. I am not asking you to respect their beliefs as such, but to respect their right to have those beliefs and exercise them. Sometimes the best thing to do is keep our mouths shut.

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 12:10 PM
pax,

Because some farms may not be as bad doesn't mean that other farms, or most farms, aren't worse. I would respectfully ask what percentage of America's poultry is coming from your friends' farms and those like it vs. say Tyson chicken.

PETA is an easy target for those looking to dismiss the issue. While the majority of PETA's work isn't of the headline-grabbing, fake-blood-flinging variety, what if we agree to leave them out just to eliminate the emotion, extremism, and bias associated with them.

Instead, look to the industry itself. Look at its own publications and products to get a sense of what it's really like.

For a more condensed version, check out Fast Food Nation, which has been brought up a couple of times here. It's a very interesting read and its sources are very well cited.

WolfMansDad
December 1, 2006, 12:17 PM
I have several vegetarian friends, and none of them have ever expressed any opposition to my hunting. All the heat I have taken for my "lifestyle" has come from people who eat store-bought meat. Then again, all the vegetarians I know are either opposed to the meat industry, or they are doing it for health reasons.

I tried being a vegetarian for a couple of months once. Boy, did it suck! And yes, I did get all the good recipies from my vegetarian friends. I'm just designed to eat meat.

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 12:27 PM
moewaddle,

I very much agree that we need to have a high level of discourse, respect others, and not stereotype. But there's always a but...

Most of us seem to agree that a person has a right to be left alone and follow his own path. Until that path infringes on another's rights. And a lot of people think animals have rights. I've certainly heard some strong language on this forum in response to someone hurting a dog.

***

WolfMansDad,

I hear a lot that people tried being a vegetarian, but couldn't stick with it. I can't make sense of this argument. If you think about the treatment of animals, decide it's not something you agree with, and that you want to stop contributing to it, that's a powerful moral decision. To reverse that because of the taste of food is hard to understand.

If you believed those things and still do now, I would hope you would give it another shot. How about only eating meat that you hunted yourself? That would take you out of the factory system, but still give you an avenue to satisfy your hunger to eat meat every now and then.

pax
December 1, 2006, 12:33 PM
Brad ~

Believe what you read if you want to. I believe what I've seen.

Chicken farms I've been to are suppliers for a couple of major brands.

*shrug*

pax

Cousin Mike
December 1, 2006, 12:35 PM
I was talking to my girlfriend the other day about hunting. I basically just asked her if she'd ever given any thought to learning how to hunt. We live in the city, but I have a friend who offered to teach me how to hunt and I plan on taking him up on it. It's something I think anyone who eats meat should learn how to do.

Anyways, when I asked her, I got a really quick "No."

I was actually kind of baffled, because she can shoot, she carries a gun, and she isn't one to kid herself about where her meals come from. We've watched hunting shows together, and occasionally it'll be a father teaching his young daughter how to hun. She loves to see those girls get their deer. She is, by no means, anti-anything gun related. So when asked if she wanted to learn for herself, it shocked me a little that she said "No," without even thinking about it.

I pressed a little bit.

"Well, we eat meat, and you know where it comes from."

"True, but I just don't know about going hunting."

Hmmm... I need to be careful with this one, but I press on. "So what is it about the thought of hunting that you don't like?"

She thinks for a second... "Hmmm... I don't know."

So I give it another try. This time I try another angle - is she just squeamish? Let's see. "Well sweetie, not trying to be funny, but... if you don't think you could kill a deer, then how do you know you could kill a person if you needed to?"

She makes a certain face she makes when she's thinking about something really hard. I can tell she's doing some soul searching, and just when I think I might have won, she looks up and says,

"Well, if I ever had to shoot a person, it would be because he was trying to hurt me in some way... So hell yeah I'm going to shoot him. But with a deer, it's different. He's just trying to live his life - so I guess to be honest, I just view a deer as innocent."

Damn! She hit me with a knockout punch! :D

I had to respect that. And to be honest, I can completely understand it. For me, it's food. Like I said, I've never been hunting as of yet, but what makes it alluring to me is getting in touch with something my ancestors had to do. It's about getting in touch with myself, and nature, and stepping away from cars and cell phones, computers, work, paychecks and everything life has become... and going out and hunting for my own food like men always have - long before life was full of gadgets and the meaningless duties most of us call "work". That's appealing to me on a lot of different levels. Shooting a deer, killing an animal... Those things, to me, have so little to do with why I want to hunt that it's really not even a factor.

For her, all she thinks of is that she'd be killing something innocent. And the killing aspect is what dominates her thinking about the entire subject.

Sorry for the story, but I had never really heard that before, and I thought I'd post it here. It was just funny to me that she had such a simple reason for feeling the way she does about it. But what blew me away was that none of her reasoning had anything to do with Bambi, or being an anti.

USMC - Retired
December 1, 2006, 12:36 PM
I was asked by a anti once why I felt I could kill and eat deer.

I told her that if God didn't intend for us to kill and eat deer, he wouldn't have made em outta meat!:neener:

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 12:48 PM
pax,

I do believe what I read and it very often conflicts with the limited scope of things I see for myself. I do my best to be an objective reader and to be skeptical.

***

Cousin Mike,

Very well said. Why does your girlfriend feel that way about the deer, but not the animals on the farm?

That might be the best signature line ever.

MDHunter
December 1, 2006, 01:02 PM
Moewadle,

I think many of us have no issue with someone having beliefs different than our own - it's when someone starts trying to limit MY freedoms to promote their beliefs, that I have issues!

I got no problem with someone being a vegetarian, more power to them. When they start trying to restrict or ban hunting, then they're crossing the line into MY belief system and freedom, and I'm not gonna take it lying down.

DirtyBrad,

Good to see another Marylander in the chat, don't we love the FREE state. :cuss:

Based on your posts, I'm curious if you own anything made of leather, fur, etc?

Michael

Cousin Mike
December 1, 2006, 01:04 PM
Why does your girlfriend feel that way about the deer, but not the animals on the farm?


She knows about factory-farm animals and what they go through. She doesn't like it anymore than most of us do, I'm sure... but it's really simple - so simple I'm afraid it might seem sarcastic, but it's not.

We gotta eat. :D

I mean, factory farming and stuff is unfortunate in the way some of it happens. I've seen video of the way they treat those chickens. It's horrific. But I'm not going to stop eating chicken because a few psychos at a few factory farms like to torture them. If I knew of a reasonable way to stop it, I might give of my time to such a cause... but I'm not going to affiliate myself with an extremist group, like PETA.

As for my girlfriend, she's not against hunting at all... She just doesn't want to be the one to actually drop the hammer and put a bullet through a living animal. She's cool with hunting, and knows why it's helpful to the environment, etc. She also likes to eat meat. Her being Mexican as well, she's no stranger to having an animal slaughtered fresh for a big meal. Apparently when she was a little girl, about 8 or 9 years old, she went to her uncles house and saw a goat in the garage. Well her and her brother, being city kids, they started playing with it, thinking it was their cousins new pet.

A little while later, the uncle tells them to go in the house, and shuts the door. She said at that moment, she started to cry because she knew what was going to happen, and she didn't want them to kill the goat. Then she heard it "scream."

Her mother (who is a very no-nonsense woman) looked at her, and said very matter of factly,

"Well if they don't kill the goat, what are we going to eat?"

She ate dinner. :D

She said she enjoyed the food, but it was funny knowing she was eating her new "friend." So she learned the lesson younger than a lot of kids do - definitely younger than I did. I guess it's just the aspect of killing something herself that she doesn't find so appealing.

MCgunner
December 1, 2006, 01:07 PM
I know a lot of motorcyclists that HATE deer. Fat ugly cows can't jump fences.

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 01:24 PM
Michael,

It's a delight to live in a state where my boss can carry a gun to protect his money, but my girlfriend can't to protect her life. I guess we're "free" to move :)

As you know, your freedoms aren't absolute. In the same way you don't want someone else intruding on your freedoms, a lot of people don't want to intrude on the freedoms of animals. I'm not aware of a serious movement to outlaw the consumption of meat, but there are a lot of people trying to make the process more accountable and more humane.

No, I don't have leather or fur. My girlfriend and I have been off animal products altogether for a few years now, and I've been a vegetarian for about twenty years now (I'm 32).

***

Cousin Mike,

I gotta eat, too. And I do. Too much - I'm a fatty right now. And I'm very active. For years I was an amateur competitive cyclist. I take week-long trips on the AT, kayak, run, lift weights, all the stuff that you normal folks do.

If I had to eat and animals were all I had, I'd be chowing down and would have no problem with it, I don't think.

I don't think your girlfriend's answer to your question is accurate. It seems from what you said that the answer is more "Because I'm squeamish" or "Because it's too intense". I can't see how she'd view the animal as any more or less innocent based on who was pulling the trigger.

I don't mean any offense. You both seem to be giving genuine thought to the issue, which I think is admirable.

***

MCgunner,

I live in constant fear of hitting a deer (again), too. And it's not because I'm thinking about their well-being. Even if a cow did get out, it would pretty much just stand in the road. I could deal with that. Damn deer seem to want to jump in front of your car.

WolfMansDad
December 1, 2006, 01:37 PM
Remember the "Alfred E. Packer Commemorative Grill" at the U. of Colo. commisary, before the left wing politically correct idiots forced them to take down the sign?

They took that down?? Oh man, I loved that picture of him on the wall! Eating lunch under Alfred's baleful stare was SO gothic.

Remember Illegal Pete's on the hill? Good burritos with lots of meat. They had a giant mural inside of a lion devouring a gazelle.

Cousin Mike
December 1, 2006, 01:43 PM
I can't see how she'd view the animal as any more or less innocent based on who was pulling the trigger.


No offense taken at all. I think you're just missing the point a little. It's not that she thinks who pulls the trigger makes a difference. SHE just doesn't want to be the one to pull the trigger. The intensity and squeamishness definitely seems to be a bit of a factor. The innocence thing is just the way she views any animal... and me too, to be honest.

The killing is the deciding factor. She isn't willing to kill ANYTHING that isn't attacking her - 2 or 4 legged.

While I think deer are beautiful animals, and think all animals are essentially innocent in nature, I still eat meat. So killing one isn't a big deal. In fact, me putting a bullet through an animals vitals is probably a lot more humane than being mauled by a bear or suffocated by a mountain lion - so for me nature is more cruel than any ethical hunter.

Although I have no desire to simply kill an animal, I know that in order for me to eat, that cute little fuzzy thing has to die. Circle of life and all that stuff. Something's going to kill it and eat it one day - might as well be me.

Her attitude is more of "You kill it and bring it home, I'll eat it - but I'm not shooting it myself," type of attitude. She just doesn't seem to have the heart to kill something that poses no danger to her. I thought her perspective was interesting, but I do understand it and think it's fairly honest.

WolfMansDad
December 1, 2006, 01:53 PM
Cousin Mike, I don't see anything wrong with your girlfriend's point of view. If she doesn't want to kill anything, she shouldn't have to. Not everybody needs to be a hunter, but everybody who eats meat should respect where it comes from. It sounds like she does.

Most people probably aren't cut out for killing, just as most people aren't cut out to be doctors or judges or accountants or janitors. It takes many different personalities to make up a functioning society. Society functions best when each necessary part recognizes and respects the others.

mustanger98
December 1, 2006, 02:05 PM
"Well, if I ever had to shoot a person, it would be because he was trying to hurt me in some way... So hell yeah I'm going to shoot him. But with a deer, it's different. He's just trying to live his life - so I guess to be honest, I just view a deer as innocent."

Not trying to be funny here either, but this reminds me of the time Kurt Russell put on that big celebrity shoot in Hawaii and the anti-hunting and animal rights nuts got after him about "how do you feel about killing all those innocent animals?". I remember seeing the film clips of that and his response was "I don't know whether they were innocent or guilty, but I do know a lot of people are going to eat who wouldn't have."

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 02:09 PM
Cousin Mike,

I understand what you're saying, but the "innocent" answer still sounds strange to me. She's certainly not a hypocrite - she's not condemning those who do something she doesn't feel comfortable doing.

I think it's because it implies a moral reason why she doesn't want to do it. Not doing something for a moral reason, but being okay with another doing it and consuming the result seems contradictory to me.

I don't want to (and probably couldn't) be a doctor, but it's not because I have a problem with anything about it. I'm glad that there are people who do it and enjoy it and I don't think it's contradictory to go to a doctor or benefit from it.

I agree that you are probably killing it more humanely than it would otherwise die. But I don't think the fact that it will die someday is a reasonable justification for killing it now. We're all going to die someday.

Again, you don't have to kill it to eat. You choose to kill it because it's what you like to eat. I respect you killing food that you eat yourself and the fact that, by doing so, you have a good understanding of what's involved, but no one's putting a gun to your head :)

I didn't mean to imply at all that your girlfriend wasn't being honest. I'm sorry if it came across like that.

Cousin Mike
December 1, 2006, 02:15 PM
Thanks for clearing that up, DirtyBrad - but for the record, I didn't think you were calling her dishonest. It seems I had a little misunderstanding going on myself. Looks like we're pretty much on the same page.

Not everybody needs to be a hunter, but everybody who eats meat should respect where it comes from.

I agree whole-heartedly... Last story, and then I'm outta here.

I have a cousin named Al - I asked him about hunting. He told me that for his 11th birthday (he's 35), he got a BB gun. One of those old-school things that you pump up about 1000 times... He said there was a squirrel that used to always come around his yard, and he would always try to shoot it - but he could never hit it.

One day before school, he saw it. He got his BB gun and started pumping away, and then he took careful aim - and PLAP!

Nailed it!

After it fell out of the tree, he went outside to check on his prize - and he said when he saw that dead squirrel, he just lost it.. Bawled like a little girl. Couldn't go to school, couldn't eat for the rest of the day.. Decided at that moment, hunting wasn't for him. :p

Funny story, but it proves what you're saying. Al also CCW's, and is a pretty tough guy by any standards... But shooting a squirrel reduced him to tears. I've heard about hunters who go out for their first time, get something, and then decide that they can't do it again when they see the pain/fear in an animals eyes. I hope that doesn't happen to me, but I've never killed anything. I guess we'll see.

All I was saying was that there are reasons why some people seem anti-hunter that we don't really think about. Most of it, from my limited perspective, seems stupid... like folks who hate hunters, but eat meat. To me, that's just retarded. But some folks make a compelling argument for why they themselves can't do it.

Anyone who is against the act of hunting, regardless of their personal feelings, is an elitist IMO - among many other things. I'm glad I've never really met anyone like that recently - I wouldn't know what to say to them. Even the vegetarians I know respect others' right to hunt and eat meat. They just choose not to.

The one person I know who does have strong anti-hunting feelings is just an idiot on several levels - and his reasoning reflects that. He also eats meat.

We don't hang out much. :evil:

High Planes Drifter
December 1, 2006, 02:29 PM
PETA is an easy target for those looking to dismiss the issue. While the majority of PETA's work isn't of the headline-grabbing, fake-blood-flinging variety, what if we agree to leave them out just to eliminate the emotion, extremism, and bias associated with them.

Instead, look to the industry itself. Look at its own publications and products to get a sense of what it's really like.

------------------------

Im curious, whats your overall stance on the industry? I hope you arent suggesting that we completely do away with farming for meat, poultry, and dairy.?:confused:

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 02:31 PM
I agree that anyone who eats meat should have that understanding. Well said.

I find it very, very strange that a person could have that reaction to killing an animal, swear that they were never going to do it again, but then go on eating animals that others have killed. Am I just biased or is that illogical or disconnected or something?

Actually, I can think of something sort of similar, but it relies on necessity. I could understand if someone supported the death penalty, but didn't have it in them to actually pull the switch (or whatever they do). "I recognize that this person has to die, but I don't think I have it in me to do it myself." That at least makes logical sense to me.

But eating meat isn't a necessity, which I why I don't think it's the same thing. I'm sure folks will argue that it's natural or the kinds of teeth we have or whatever, but I'm not sure how you can refute the millions of healthy non-meat-eaters out there. I guess maybe you can say they're sneaking it on the side or something.

It's funny. I've never really thought about whether I'm against hunting or not. The farthest I've gotten is that I think meat-eaters who condemn it are fools and that I think anyone who eats meat should experience it to have a real understanding about their choices.

I guess I don't support it, though. My whole thing about not eating meat is that the benefit to me is trivial, while the impact on the animals is tremendous. I'd just as soon leave animals alone.

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 02:56 PM
Sorry, High Planes Drifter, posted right on top of you.

I'm saying I think it's helpful to leave out PETA because they're a polarizing, often-extreme group that is just one voice for a much bigger issue. Arguments about animal treatment that involve them almost always seem to devolve into arguments about them.

My stance is a pretty broad topic. I'll do by best to answer, but, being the internet, lord knows how well I'll do.

I don't think we should eliminate farming. I think we should eliminate the factory conditions that exist for the production of meat, dairy, and eggs. I think most people believe in treating animals humanely and that they would not be happy with what they saw if they really looked into it.

I've been trying to refrain from enumerating the gory details. I know that's inflammatory and somewhat emotional. I hope people will look up the facts for themselves. We want to know the truth, right? We want to buy shoes for a good price, but we'd want to know if they were being produced with slave labor so at least we could make an informed decision about buying them.

Again, my position is that the taste of my food is a very small thing compared with causing suffering in animals that have done me no harm.

sargenv
December 1, 2006, 03:41 PM
I've read the whole thread, and I'll chime in that I do hunt and eat what I hunt. For me it's mostly anything on the wing. Ducks, Geese, Pheasant, Quail, and Doves.. People ask me, how can you shoot the bird of peace? I usually reply, you have to give them about a 3-4 foot lead.. ;)

I've had discussions with those who choose to not eat meat for whatever reason they have, it usually floors them when I tell them that I cannot eat fresh fruits, veggies, raw eggs, or half the nuts on the planet. What the heck would you have me eat? When I say raw eggs, Sunny side up or over easy counts. It has to be scrambeled, over hard, or boiled into submission. They are then a little more understanding of why I do it.

One thing I've seen a few times.. A Native American saying.. A vegetarian is a sign of a bad hunter. :rolleyes:

My reason for hunting has always been due to "If I'm going to eat meat, I'm going to at least be partially part of the process". Ok so I don't kill cows.. I think the zoning laws where I live frown on that sort of thing.

Vince

Nicky Santoro
December 1, 2006, 04:07 PM
people complain about hunting. yet they eat meat...

I had one tell me she couldn't bear the thought of a little tiny faun being wounded and crawling away to die. Another mental midget asked me how I could shoot some tiny deer's "mommy". When I told her that by the time hunting season comes around, the young are all on their own, she told me she didn't believe that.
The short of it is that these people saw "Bambi" and thought it was a documentary.

hockeybum
December 1, 2006, 04:44 PM
thanks guys, you all know what we do, and why we do it, and we all kill to eat, i'm happy that so many people have posted on this, it makes me proud to be a member of a website that has people that understand hungint. it is because of all the people on this site that guns are still around and legal so i thank you all. by the way, i might only be 15, but some 30 year olds are dumber than a bag-o-rocks. thanks guys

mustanger98
December 1, 2006, 04:50 PM
by the way, i might only be 15, but some 30 year olds are dumber than a bag-o-rocks. thanks guys

Well, I'm 32 and I've noticed some real dummies in my age group too, so we're not all going around griping about "kids these days". Sharing opinions seems to generally be no problem here... you get a bunch of opinionated people and a hot-button issue and there you go.:cool:

MDHunter
December 1, 2006, 05:09 PM
DirtyBrad,

Now we're getting to the specifics! I hear your personal positon about not being for hunting...and if you choose vegetarianism, go for it...

As a hunter, the issue I would have, would be people trying to ban hunting via political process. You notice I went back to people, and not YOU, at this point, because I don't hear you saying that..

For instance, Michigan has been put in the potential positon of having a VOTE on whether dove hunting should be allowed - I think that's way over the top, for one group of people to vote to limit the actions of another group, when the second group is not breaking the law and is not doing anything besides minding their own business and leading their own lives.

Hunting is the primary tool used to manage populations of game across the country, and provides recreational and nutritional benefits to its members while also providing economic stimulus to states and significant amounts of healthy protein to homeless shelters and soup kitchens.

I think one of the principles of being free, is that we're all free to pursue our desired path (vegetarian, hunter, etc) , without interference from others, as long as we're not intruding on the space of others or breaking the law.

Different topic: I used to race bicycles as well, back in the early 90s - even stopped eating meat during that time, AND GAVE AWAY MY GUNS (some decisions were not the best I've made!) When I started hunting again in the late 902, I had to buy new guns...oh well, that part was fun too!

Michael

MDHunter
December 1, 2006, 05:14 PM
that I'm signing off for now, to go eat some of the moose backstrap from my Alaska hunt this year!

Cheers,

Michael

Jalexander
December 1, 2006, 06:04 PM
Read 'Fast Food Nation'.
Read 'The Omnivore's Dilemma'.

Neither of these books are pro-vegetarian, they are anti-meat industry. They would be of great interest (IMO) to hunters.

I recently read a book called Raising Less Corn, More H*ll: The Case For The Independent Farm And Against Industrial Food. It's less about the particulars of diet and more about how modern factory farming is very bad for everyone.

I have a cousin named Al - I asked him about hunting. He told me that for his 11th birthday (he's 35), he got a BB gun. One of those old-school things that you pump up about 1000 times... He said there was a squirrel that used to always come around his yard, and he would always try to shoot it - but he could never hit it.

One day before school, he saw it. He got his BB gun and started pumping away, and then he took careful aim - and PLAP!

Nailed it!

After it fell out of the tree, he went outside to check on his prize - and he said when he saw that dead squirrel, he just lost it.. Bawled like a little girl. Couldn't go to school, couldn't eat for the rest of the day.. Decided at that moment, hunting wasn't for him.

I had an experience that was almost identical, although I was nine or so. However, I did grow up on a ranch and I was used to riding along when my mom and dad went quail hunting, so I was accustomed to seeing dead critters. Killing that starling didn't cause me to swear off hunting, but now I don't kill anything unless I'm going to eat it or it's a threat.

James

MCgunner
December 1, 2006, 06:17 PM
Most people probably aren't cut out for killing,

Only in a modern urban society. In the real world where people kill or starve (wringing a chicken's neck is killing) you won't find too many survivors that don't kill something. Vegetarianism is a product of perhaps the last couple of hundred years. When people were mostly agrarian, we had no time for such stupidity. Before that, 5,000 years ago or so, hunter gatherers hunted as well as gathered.

Hell, stepping on a roach is killing. It is said Johnny Applesseed (was he fictitious? LOL) would put out a camp fire to keep from killing mosquitoes. That's getting carried away, I'd think. :rolleyes: People have a bad habit of anthropomorphizing animals, plants, even inaniment objects. Folks, deer ain't human. Sure, they're mammals, but they ain't human and don't necessarily speak to each other or have advanced cerebral thought. I don't particularly believe they have "rights" either, not as in "human rights". Sure, I make humane kills and treat pets and animals I'm around humanely, but RIGHTS? Killing a pig isn't murder in my book, nor is stepping on a roach. Just how far do you wanna take this "animal rights" line of thought, as far as Johnny Appleseed did? Does it include arthropods? How about protozoans? Viruses? If there are animal rights, why are not there plant rights?

My daughter gave me a T shirt a while back, says "Vegetarian... ve je tar e un Native American word for bad hunter." :D

BTW, if you are a vegetarian, you must kill and eat innocent plants. How do you live with yourself?

Personally, I revel in my place in the natural world as an apex predator. Man accented in nature as an apex predator. What he lacked in brawn, he made up for in brains. Beats runnin' around the savanna as prey for the lions, don't ya think?

I have seen on science channel documentaries that it takes predation to grow brain cells. IOW, had we not become carnivorous, we'd be stuck with the tiny brains that our ancestors, Homo habolis, had. I wonder if that works in reverse, if you get off meat your brain shrinks? Just listening to some hollywood PETA types makes me thing it's possible. ROFLMAO!

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 06:27 PM
It's interesting to have a moral view that I know is in a very small minority. Following our system of government, I have to go with the will of the majority. If you're against slavery, but 95% of the people in the country are for it, what do you do? You don't have a way of changing laws, so I guess you have to changes minds, be a subversive, or both.

As for the legality of hunting and whose rights are being violated, I think it all depends on your view of animals. If you're of the view that an animal doesn't have the right to go about its daily business in the forest without being shot, then you're right. From that perspective, anyone trying to legislate your hunting is infringing on your rights.

But if you have the view that they do have those rights, then it's no longer your right to shoot them. It's not the law or the tree-hugging hippies that are violating your rights, it's you who's violating the rights of the animals.

Animal rights are a tricky subject. Most people would agree, I think, that a person who tortures a dog should be punished severely. But most people also agree that we should eat animals. From that, it strikes me that the average person feels that animals have some rights, but not the same as us. I would agree with that; I think it's the definition of just what "some" means that is a tough area.

Again, for me it's a question of risk vs. reward. It seems from the response of a lot of the hunters here that killing an animal is generally considered a grave thing. I agree. To commit that grave act would require me to have an equally grave reason - self-defense, starving in the woods, etc.

As I've said, my tastebuds to me don't come anywhere close to that reason. As for hunting, I would love to. I love the outdoors. I'm a pretty minimalist long-distance hiker, cyclist, and I love being on the water. I think all the time while paddling about the Indians and how they paddled down the same stretch of water and how their lives must have been. I think I would get a lot out of hunting.

But what would that be? I think it would be more serious than a game or a hobby, but it would still be a pleasure that I imagine would be what cycling or hiking is to me now. To me, that's not enough to justify it. I hope I'm making myself clear.

***

Jalexander,

I think my girlfriend read the same book. She was on my like fire for a long time about corn syrup. It's proof that, despite all of this, I'm mostly lazy as hell. She's making good points about health and the evils of factory farming, but I still can't seem to manage to give up a Coke with lunch or the convenience of junk food. I know they're the devil, but I'm weak.

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 06:45 PM
MCgunner, sorry. Typing a million responses to this today keeps causing me to post right over other people.

For me, the relevant question isn't how intelligent animals are or how sentient, but whether they have the capacity to suffer. Which is why there's a lot of eye-rolling to questions about killing the innocent broccoli, etc. I probably don't have to point out that vegetables lack both a method for processing pain and the nerves to transmit it.

Like I said, if you think the way America processes its food animals doesn't cause a lot of suffering or if you don't think that suffering is wrong, that's one thing. But if you do, yet continue to contribute to it, I think that's a logical disconnect.

I have a hard time linking us to our agrarian ancestors. They were also too busy to go to the dentist, attend college, buy rifle ammunition, etc. As I said, if I were facing starvation, I would certainly kill animals to survive. I would be happy to have them. But I don't need to do that to be healthy or full.

You called being vegetarian "stupidity". I can't see how it has anything to do with intelligence one way or the other. I'm curious as to how you think it does.

hqmhqm
December 1, 2006, 06:54 PM
I enjoy hunting for food you will eat, but I was at the range and was talking to an older man who was talking about what he had used to shoot an elephant, and I was taken aback. Killing an elephant as a trophy in this day and age is something I do not feel comfortable with at all. Maybe if you were Teddy Roosevelt, in 1908, but I don't see it today.

MCgunner
December 1, 2006, 07:09 PM
Dirtybrad, I'm not addressing directly America's meat processing industry, but my right to hunt and kill prey and take my place in nature as an apex predator. I do believe animals should be dispatched as quickly as possible and have nothing against laws for such in slaughter houses.

This "animal rights" argument could only be applied in modern western society. In other societies, there are fewer such morays about the killing of animals. In Spain, the blood sport of bull fighting still survives and thrives. 25,000 years ago, our ancestors killed to survive. Man is a natural predator, evolved as a predator. It is our natural place in nature. It is genetic. We do not have ruminant guts like a cow. We eat meat and we need it nutritionally, even though we can get some necessary nutrition from plants. Cooking allows us to fully utilize plants, it is not physiological. Too, there are a couple of amino acids we can only get from meat. There is one plant source, as I understand it, for these two amino acids, soy. If you don't have soy in your habitat, you have to eat meat. I don't think soy grew or was utilized in ice age Europe or in Africa from whence we all came. By nature, we are predators. If you will, God made us that way. I ain't gonna stop being a predator for anyone's feelings, much less the deer I shoot. Yeah, they have nervous systems. So does a cock roach. Do you worry about the suffering of cock roaches when you put out your poison or stick 'em traps?

Yes, treat animals humanely, don't take pleasure in torturing them. But, by all means, take pleasure in taking your place in nature as an apex predator. That is what you are. You are made that way by your creator. It is your place on this earth. You are not here to torture animals, but to prey on herbivores. Were it not for a six mile wide asteroid, the Tyrannosaurus might yet have our altar at the top of the food chain, but thems the breaks. The dinosaurs are gone and we've taken over. I do not find it inhumane to kill my own food, nor do I find it unnatural. Quite to the contrary, nothing is MORE natural! I have hunted and fished all my life and a good portion of my diet has been that which I personally killed over all these 54 years and that's not going to stop now because of a few kooky movie stars that are way removed from the world of reality. Besides, I don't really like salad all that much.

swampdog
December 1, 2006, 07:10 PM
The "usual suspects" tried to stop a black bear hunt in the Dismal Swamp Refuge this week. They were unsuccessful. The article is here (http://www.dailypress.com/news/local/dp-93261sy0dec01,0,1645070.story?coll=dp-news-local-final).

I think the enjoyment hunters get out of it bothers anti's more than the actual killing. The above article reminded me of the Colorado elk situation.

I hunt and I eat meat. If I was forced to be a vegetarian, I'd be dreaming of a char-grilled porterhouse within the first week and buying one on the blackmarket by the second. Luckily, I still have a choice, for now.

I've often heard statements putting down hunters for not caring enough about the rights of all gun owners. I'm sure everyone here has. I think all gun owners should care more about the rights of hunters. If they were to make hunting illegal, that would be one less reason why we "need" guns. I believe the anti-hunting movement is just a front for the anti-gunners and any gun owners that support it are supporting the same people who want to take their guns.

MCgunner
December 1, 2006, 07:17 PM
I enjoy hunting for food you will eat, but I was at the range and was talking to an older man who was talking about what he had used to shoot an elephant, and I was taken aback. Killing an elephant as a trophy in this day and age is something I do not feel comfortable with at all. Maybe if you were Teddy Roosevelt, in 1908, but I don't see it today.

And why not? IF the meat is utilized by the local population or SOMEbody, I don't see it as unethical. Heck, I kill coyotes for predator control, no other reason. I don't eat 'em.

But, if it's an edible animal, it is a waste to let it rot. This is one of the more sickening things about the slaughter of the buffalo herds in the 19th century, all that protein going to waste, and danged tasty, too. So, if I had more money than sense (I don't, and not because I have a lot of sense) and I wanted to hunt Elephant, I wouldn't do it unless the animal was going to be utilized by the local population. Just killing one for a couple of teeth is unethical IMHO. There are plenty of people in Africa that could use the free meat I'd think.

So, I'm with you if the meat is not utilized. I have never been of a trophy hunting mentality anyway. Can't eat the horns. But, I do have a few mounts on my walls. It's a Texas home, after all. :D

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 07:39 PM
MCgunner,

I have a lot of trouble with the "natural" argument. It isn't natural for us to sleep in a bed, wear shoes, floss, treat women as equal, get chemotherapy, write literature, get married, hunt with a rifle, etc.

If you want to say that part of our nature is our relatively tremendous intelligence that allows us to develop new tools, materials, and techniques, I would say that electing to be vegetarian or vegan is then just as natural as eating meat.

As far as the health aspect, as I said before, there are vegetarian atheletes at every level of sport, including weight-lifting and millions of healthy vegetarians in this country. That to me is a very strong argument that it's a perfectly healthy lifestyle. Quite a few doctors are now recommending a vegetarian diet because of various other health benefits, but I don't really think about that much.

Perhaps the society that we belong to allows for a meat-free environment more than the past. However that came about, it's the way it is and because of that, I choose to take advantage of it and not hurt or kill an animal to eat. As I've said, eating meat was a necessity in the past, so it was a moot point. But it's not now, so we can start to explore the issue more.

***

swampdog,

I certainly hope you take pleasure in hunting. I don't know why you'd do it if you didn't.

Black market? I find that sort of thing pretty funny. It's just one kind of food. I understand really liking it. I miss it myself sometimes, but people always say they couldn't live without it. It's just food. If you had a medical condition where meat would kill you, you'd stop eating it. You'd miss it, sure, but you'd get by just fine.

That happens all the time. People are diabetic or can't eat dairy or have other health problems that restrict their diets. Yeah, it sucks on some level not to be able to eat things you enjoy, but it's not exactly a hardship.

mustanger98
December 1, 2006, 07:39 PM
As for the legality of hunting and whose rights are being violated, I think it all depends on your view of animals. If you're of the view that an animal doesn't have the right to go about its daily business in the forest without being shot, then you're right. From that perspective, anyone trying to legislate your hunting is infringing on your rights.

But if you have the view that they do have those rights, then it's no longer your right to shoot them. It's not the law or the tree-hugging hippies that are violating your rights, it's you who's violating the rights of the animals.

Animal rights are a tricky subject. Most people would agree, I think, that a person who tortures a dog should be punished severely. But most people also agree that we should eat animals. From that, it strikes me that the average person feels that animals have some rights, but not the same as us. I would agree with that; I think it's the definition of just what "some" means that is a tough area.

I say this as a Christian who knows something about the Old Testament as well... God said "man shall have dominion" over the land and the animals. He also said after the great flood that "I give you every living thing to eat", but later named "clean and unclean" animals as to whether or not they should be eaten. Now, my point in bringing this up is partly to say this is a big part of why we draw lines as to what we're comfortable eating. The other part of my point, and more importantly, is that with dominion comes a huge responsibility in so many areas it'd be impossible to discuss them all reasonably.

mustanger98
December 1, 2006, 07:45 PM
I enjoy hunting for food you will eat, but I was at the range and was talking to an older man who was talking about what he had used to shoot an elephant, and I was taken aback. Killing an elephant as a trophy in this day and age is something I do not feel comfortable with at all. Maybe if you were Teddy Roosevelt, in 1908, but I don't see it today.

What you don't readily realize is that there are negative consequences to banning the legal hunting of elephants. Herd size and rogues being two interrelated issues. Plus, every time a paying hunter kills any elephant or other African game animal, while the hunter gets the trophy (head/ivory/hide), the local native people get the meat. They can clean up an elephant in two or three days, that is, process the meat for future eating. A paying hunter kills a large dangerous game animal (elephant, rhino, hippo, etc.) like that and the natives generally celebrate. Examples of this can be read in Elmer Keith's "Hell, I Was There".

MCgunner
December 1, 2006, 07:55 PM
Now, my point in bringing this up is partly to say this is a big part of why we draw lines as to what we're comfortable eating.

Maybe, but so long as I can shoot deer, catch redfish and trout, and buy a T bone, why should I eat grasshoppers? :D :D

But, in not so Christian countries, they do eat grasshoppers, so you probably have a very good point there. If I'd grown up in the Philippines, I'd probably like grasshoppers. Yum. Deal is, just because vegetarianism is a fad here, don't mean it's going to go world wide. You ain't gonna keep a Chinese from his fish, I can tell ya that! I know too danged many of 'em, LOL! And, what's that stuff they do in Korea, egg buried in the ground until it rots? Kimshee or something like that I think. Then, there's the Chinese thing where the strap a live monkey in a cage below a table with his head showing, lop the top of his head open while he's still alive to eat the brains. Supposed to give them courage or intelligence or something. We don't do that sort of thing here, of course, but over there I'd suspect you'd get laughed out of town if you tried to get 'em all to be vegetarian. It's the culture, different morays. I don't believe in forcing our culture on others, though western civilizations have been doing that forever in the name of the Lord. I guess it's my Cherokee side speaking. Maybe it's the Cherokee that makes me hunt, but I tend to think it was growing up a native Texan in a rural community.

Would eating grasshoppers be against the vegetarian religion?

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 08:00 PM
mustanger98,

I try to avoid supporting arguing the Bible because it seems, from my experience, that one can back up almost any position with its words.

You're referring to Leviticus, right? No shellfish, pigs, blood, etc? Didn't Jesus lift those restrictions, which is why Christians aren't kosher? Forgive my ignorance if I've misunderstood. Bhuddists are vegetarian if I'm not mistaken, as are Hindus. In any case, it's difficult for me to imagine standing before God at the end and him being upset with you for not eating meat.

I personally don't hold with the idea of man's dominion over nature (Genesis, right?). I would say that our agrarian ancestors previously reference lived in nature, not lorded over it. When I'm outdoors, I certainly don't feel dominion.

But I still feel we have a responsibility for it. I also feel that a those of us who are able have an obligation to watch out for the weak.

WolfMansDad
December 1, 2006, 08:08 PM
I have known a great many cats in my life. Most of them are content to sleep all day in the sun and eat the cat chow their owners set before them. A few of them, however, have been hunters. Those of you who have a cat like this will understand. They NEED to go out and hunt. They will actively go out and look for things to catch. You can't stop them, and it will probably warp them if you try.

Some people are the same way. I am. I have to hunt. It's an inborn need, and I have felt it since I was very small. There are some kids who torture animals, but that is not the same thing. The born hunter kills quickly, without malice, and never just for the thrill of killing. Sometimes, the born hunter will pass up the kill once the prey is caught or outwitted, if killing the animal is inconvenient or unecessary. After all, the chase is the game. But the prey is not spared out of kindness any more than it is killed out of malice.

I can't speak of whether animals have rights or not. Does the cat have the right to follow its inborn need? Does the rat have the right to be left alone? Could you explain this concept to either one of them? I really don't care. I choose not to be cruel, but that's really more a part of the inborn need than a deliberate choice. To see an animal suffer is upsetting, but I still have to hunt.

I can't explain it any other way.

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 08:15 PM
Vegetarianism isn't American by any means. It's popular in all of the western countries. And there are many millions of Hindus and Bhuddists in many eastern countries (including China) who are vegetarian.

Being vegetarian or vegan isn't a religion (although there are many religious people who are). It's just about not eating a certain food. There's not a governing body. Some people would have a problem eating a grasshopper, some wouldn't, just like some people don't support eating veal and some do. Personally, I have no use for grasshoppers.

It's hard to imagine calling something a fad without that being an insult. If vegetarianism is a fad because it's new, then so are cars and electric lights. If that's because you don't think it will last, I guess time will tell.

MCgunner
December 1, 2006, 08:25 PM
My education is in wildlife and fisheries science (management) and I'm not Christian. I do what I do because it is what I am. I don't think it particularly healthy to try to be an herbivore, but that's your right if you wish. Knock yourself out at the salad bar. HOWEVER, it is not I or people like me that are threatening to keep you from eating salad. It is the animal rights folks and vegetarians who are calling me a murderer and attempting to keep me from doing what I do. Therefore, I have a right to fight back. It is my birthright to eat meat, it's what I do, it's my place in nature.

I'm not sure the animal rights folks have enough intelligence to understand that there are cultures beyond their control. They might politically exercise their will over me someday. At that point, I'll be an outlaw because I will still kill to eat. It is doubtful that they'll ever have the political clout to bring down the entire agricultural industry, however. Money talks, BS walks. It is doubtful they could fight the sport hunter and win. After all, we are right and game managers know it. Without the tools of hunting, their job becomes impossible. Heck, without our licenses and pitman robertson taxes, they lose their jobs! There is a HUGE dollar industry around sport hunting, of course, too.

But, even if they could be victorious in America or the western world, they'll not keep the Chinese from eating his meat, or the African, or the Saudi, or the Indian, or whom ever. They're fighting a lost cause if they think they can force their values on every culture in this world. If they wanna eat salad, no problem, just let me eat my meat!

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 08:27 PM
WolfMansDad,

I understand what you're saying, but if an animal has a right to life, then it's a moot point. I can say I have a need for a variety of things, but if it violates another's rights, then I'm out of luck.

I feel like I'm going off the rails a bit, though. Obviously, a few of us hijacked this thread a long while ago, but I don't think I've been anti-hunting from the start, and I don't mean to be now.

As I said before, I don't see hunting as cruel or torture at all and I have a certain kind of respect for those of you that eat meat and actually understand the process and what's involved in doing so.

My big problem is with both the current "mass-produced" meat industry and in what I think is hypocrisy in a lot of people who would contribute to it, but say they don't think animals should be made to suffer if it's possible to avoid.

I'm not stopping anyone from hunting (or anything else, I'm sure). Those of you that do, stay safe.

I have to get away from you guys, get the hell out of the office, and get some dinner already. Hummus, pita, and potatoes, yum.

MCgunner
December 1, 2006, 08:41 PM
Hummus? That's what I till into my garden, I think, like peat moss. :barf: I'll stick with my oven fried chicken, thanks. It was real good. :D

Cousin Mike
December 1, 2006, 09:08 PM
...this is just my opinion on a few issues that have been discussed since I last read here.

1.) Eating meat is not necessary for survival.

I think a lot of folks would disagree. You tell me someone only eats organic food, what I hear is "So & so is a wealthy person." And that's about all I hear... If you don't make $100k a year, you just can't afford to eat like that. Trust me, I've tried it. A quart of orange juice might cost $3 - but that same juice with the word "organic" on the carton all of a sudden costs $7-$8.

I can get a 20-pack of chicken legs for $4.50 - so if I live on a normal salary like most of America, I can't afford to eat salads and exotic fruits all day - as wonderful as that may be. And I definitely can't make that the main staple of my diet. I need meat to survive and be healthy.

2.) Vegetarians are inherently healthy.

Caca del toro... Most vegetarians I know in their 30's look like they're approaching 50. Most have assorted health problems of various flavors, usually digestive problems - and 100% of them take supplements for protien. If being a vegetarian was healthy in and of itself, there would be no need for nutrition supplements for protien - which is almost exclusively found in meat.

Yeah I know, beans and nuts have protien... Not nearly as much as a steak does, though. They say an 80-90% vegetarian diet is healthy, but that's different than complete vegan/vegetarianism.

3.) Animal rights.

A mutually exclusive point. Animals don't have rights in any real sense as far as I'm concerned. Of course they should be free to live a life free of unnecessary pain and suffering, but when we start to talk about "rights," red flags go off in my mind.

I say that because if animals have rights, then we have to subject them to law. Which is silly. But that's the other side of the coin. So if someone thinks animals have rights, they're telling me that predation should be illegal, no matter if it's human or animal predation. So what do we do, imprison all meat eating people AND animals? What's the charge, violating the civil rights of an animal?

When the world goes in that direction, I'm headed for Mars.

MCgunner, great point about the evolution of our brains. I've also heard that eating cooked food (read: meat) as opposed to raw food is a big part of why our brains continued to evolve the way they did. In any case, this has been a very interesting and civil discussion - it's been a pleasure to take part in.

mustanger98
December 1, 2006, 09:45 PM
I try to avoid supporting arguing the Bible because it seems, from my experience, that one can back up almost any position with its words.

I've noticed the same thing about how some people twist the words to mean something they were never intended to mean. The KKK tried that on one occassion I'm aware of and a college professor who is a campus minister handed them their butts at knowledge of scripture; he balanced out everything they said so it didn't support their view. But that's a different story, or at least on a different subject.

You're referring to Leviticus, right? No shellfish, pigs, blood, etc? Didn't Jesus lift those restrictions, which is why Christians aren't kosher? Forgive my ignorance if I've misunderstood. Bhuddists are vegetarian if I'm not mistaken, as are Hindus. In any case, it's difficult for me to imagine standing before God at the end and him being upset with you for not eating meat.

Leviticus; right. I'm aware that many people believe Jesus did lift those restrictions, but I'm also aware of some professing Christians who don't believe He did. BTW, I'm not quite kosher either, but I found shellfish and ham don't exactly agree with me. That said, I'm not past hunting squirrels and wild hogs either if I know the meat will be used. I knew Hindus were vegetarians, but wasn't sure Bhuddists were. As far as God's judgement at the end, I don't think eating meat, and which meats, or not eating meat will be the major issues He will be judging on, but a practitioner of Judaism, whether Jewish or gentile convert, might disagree on that point. I recall Jesus said it's not what a man puts in his mouth that defiles him, but rather what he says. I believe He meant this as what we eat is not nearly so important as that we don't blaspheme and how we treat our fellow people. And some believers during Jesus human lifetime were gentiles who ate pork and He didn't turn them away for it.

I personally don't hold with the idea of man's dominion over nature (Genesis, right?). I would say that our agrarian ancestors previously reference lived in nature, not lorded over it. When I'm outdoors, I certainly don't feel dominion.

Right; Genesis. The way I see it, whether someone believes in man's dominion or not, we humans are managers with very different ideas as to how things should be managed. The way I understand it though, in the period where many were thought to be strictly agrarian, this is still going to vary by region. Cain and Abel... the first to brothers; one raised crops while the other raised sheep. (I'm not discussing the first murder here; different subject.) They lived at the same time, but had different specialties. Fast forward down the line to the Tower of Babel... I've heard it preached that Nimrod got real well known for killing animals other people were scared stupid of. The way I understood it, those people who worshipped Nimrod were agrarian. (That don't make farmers idolaters by default either. Also, if we read our Bibles, we know how that part of the story went.) I'm not disagreeing that agrarians didn't live in nature, but we're all still managers from one angle or another.

But I still feel we have a responsibility for it. I also feel that a those of us who are able have an obligation to watch out for the weak.

I'm thinking we agree on the generality of those two points.

DirtyBrad
December 1, 2006, 10:02 PM
Cousin Mike,

In response to your three points:

1. I don't really agree. I've been a vegetarian since I was 12 (32 now) and never been wealthy. I do okay now, but I put myself through college working part-time (technically) jobs for about $10 an hour and lived about as cheap as you can. I honestly never had trouble with a food budget. Sure, I was eating Ramen or Mac 'n Cheeze at the end of plenty of months, but I don't know too many college kids that don't.

Yeah, there are expensive pre-packaged vegetarian foods, but there are plenty that aren't. Being vegan for the last few years has posed some challenges, but vegetarian never did at all.

As far as organic, yeah, you're going to get screwed hard on a lot of that stuff. I don't feel any need to drink organic OJ, though. I buy it in the gallon jug when it's on sale at the supermarket.

2. The health thing seems an almost impossible discussion to "prove". You say every vegetarian you know looks twenty years older. I'll say that every one I know looks great and is fit. Do we count up who knows more? I don't know.

I don't take a supplement for protein. I take a regular multi-vitamin, which I think most doctors would recommend for anyone. I think you'll find that protein is becoming understood as a bit over-rated in terms of how much the average person needs. I've read this in plenty of non-vegetarian places like fitness magazines.

Personally, I'm healthy. I get good checkups and have never had a problem. I had a thorough physical a few years back at NIH and the nurse looking at my blood results said I must eat a lot of red meat. Two years ago I had kidney stones and the doctor said I should try cutting down on the meat.

3. As for rights, I don't know. Like I said, most anyone would agree that a dog owner shouldn't be able to do whatever he wants to his dog. If he beats the dog, he should be punished. Does that mean the dog has the right not to be beaten? I don't know. It seems to mean the dog's got something, though.

MCgunner
December 1, 2006, 10:32 PM
I'm not quite kosher either, but I found shellfish and ham don't exactly agree with me.

Man, how could you live without raw oysters? I have an oyster knife in my tackle box and when I'm out fishing in the winter, often, I'll stop on a reef and open a few. Helps to bring along some cocktail sauce. You can imagine 'em screaming as they go down your gullet. :D How's that for cruel, eaten alive? Don't get no fresher, though.

mustanger98
December 1, 2006, 10:54 PM
This is just me and where I grew up, but the times I recall eating oysters, we had 'em pan fried. Tasted pretty good too, but they weren't that big a deal to me. But that's just me. But then, I'm more into freshwater fishing (bass, stripers, crappie, or trout). It's more my style to cornmeal batter 'em and pan fry 'em... preferably in cast iron.

Cousin Mike
December 1, 2006, 11:15 PM
Animal suffering - I guess that's the button for me. Like I said earlier, nature is very cruel. I respect anyones choice to eat whatever they like. But there are lots of things you could do to help animals. Not eating common food doesn't seem to me to be a big help to much of anything, except one individuals self-image. I hope that doesn't offend you - self-image is important on an individual level. But when people start feeding me that collective animal suffering stuff, as if going vegetarian somehow helps the animal world, I tend to get annoyed. Delusions of grandeur, etc.

Watch nature shows sometimes. Lions often start eating their prey while it's still alive. I've seen video of baboons eating the eyes (and various other parts) out of a very alive and struggling antelope, long before killing it. Lots of animals kill and/or eat their prey in ways that are not-so-quick-and-humane. A person shooting an animal, or slitting it's throat/wringing it's neck is very mild compared to what it's counterparts in the wild would do in a lot of cases.

People who abuse animals are sicko's IMO, and that's a whole other matter. We already have laws against that - and they should be enforced. But buying/eating chicken, even though you know somewhere, some chicken suffered during it's life, doesn't amount to hypocrisy in my way of thinking. I'd be much more inclined to worry about human suffering... At the very least, there are animals that could really use our help. Chickens are not being poached to the brink of extinction.

So I guess if I wanted to help animals, or the planet, I'd go volunteer to help clean up the ocean - or give my time to preserve an endangered species.. And maybe I will one day... Or, I could grab my rifle/shotgun/revolver/bow and arrow, and help out nature by hunting for my food and maintaining the natural balance in my area - and I can feed myself and my family, and maybe even the poor at the same time. That does a lot more than just abstaining from meat solely on the principal of "suffering."

That's the part of the "animal rights" thing that annoys me personally, aside from the obvious fallacy in the logic of legally granting human rights to animals, like the PETA freaks think we should. Whatever helps you sleep at night, I suppose - as long as "I'm saving the world because I don't eat precious animals!" or that other animal rights extremism doesn't come into the conversation. As for what will help me sleep tonight? I have a steak and some potatoes downstairs that I need to attend to. :)

gezzer
December 1, 2006, 11:19 PM
I go by eat what ever you want, I don't care, but it seems the new Vegans cannot do that they HAVE to preach to me about eating meat is bad. Well to bad get OUT OF MY FACE I am sick of being nice when they are not.

I could have sworn we killed and ate all the Vegans a couple thousand centuries ago. Besides if I was to be a Vegan by design my eyes would be on the sides of my head.

DirtyBrad
December 2, 2006, 12:18 AM
I'm a little offended, but I'll manage.

It's probably impossible to be completely objective about self-image, but I don't think that's any part of it. If anything, I feel it's the opposite. Answering the "But what do you eat?" question got old a long, long time ago.

I think the argument on the actual collective effect of vegetarians would be an interesting one. I have no idea of the real numbers. Hopefully, it makes a difference. I assume that the number of people that eat meat has a direct impact on how much is produced. If one percent of the population is vegetarian, it seems reasonable that there will be something like one percent less meat produced. I'm sure various economic and production factors keep it from being a one-to-one relationship, but it's hard to imagine it not having some effect.

In any event, that's not actually much of a part of the decision for me. I'm sure we all have things in our life that we do, not because of the actual impact, but because we believe that they're right. Heck, take voting. My vote certainly doesn't mean a thing, but I think it's the right thing to do.

I agree that nature is cruel, but I'm not sure what bearing it has on what we do. We may be more humane than a lion or baboon, but those aren't the standards I think most of us try to live by.

I agree that people who abuse animals are sickos. It does something to me that almost nothing else does to hear about someone hurting an animal or a kid or anyone who can't defend themselves. I think it's as sick to cause that kind of suffering for profit or by negligence.

When I decide to protect my family, the answer isn't "buy a gun". Having a gun may be one tool I have, but there's not a limit on the things I can do for my family's safety. Because there are other things I can do to help animals doesn't make this one less valuable.

***

gezzer,

I don't think I understand your post.

I don't think there were humans hundreds of thousands of years ago. Which makes it hard to picture us eating anything, much less each other.

Gorillas have their eyes in the front of their heads and don't eat meat.

lawson
December 2, 2006, 02:16 AM
i am an enthusiastic eater of meat. i am a hunter, and my parents raised me to believe that animals are to be respected, and if i can't take one's life, i shouldn't have the priviledge to eat it's flesh. at eight years old, my ma would send me out to the chicken coop on sunday afternoons to kill and clean a chicken for dinner. though we did also eat meat from the grocery store, we raised chicken and goats in our backyard as well as the occasional hog. there were catfish to clean after fishing trips, bigger game when someone in the family was lucky enough to be drawn for a tag, and lots of quail and dove in the fall. for me, killing was a part of eating. these days, i don't get to hunt and fish as often as i'd like, so most of my meat comes from the grocery store. i try to buy organic free range meat as much as possible, mainly because it tastes better.

now, one of my best friends is a vegan. no animal products whatsoever. no meat, no dairy, no leather goods, nothing. the guy doesn't even own a car, chooses to ride his bicycle everywhere. he doesn't own guns and doesn't like them very much.

how are we able to be friends? i respect his beliefs, he respects mine. this is America, and we're allowed to believe whatever we want. that's what freedom is all about, right?

when asked why he is vegan, he told me that he never really liked eating meat as a kid, and couldn't get the image of it being an animal out of his head while he was eating it. i respect this, as it's a pretty good reason to choose that lifestyle. he's been vegan for over 10 years now and is very healthy.

granted, this is the exception. i've met many vegans and vegetarians who are not so tolerant, and will not bend to another point of view. try to respect others, and hope they do the same. always take the high road.

razorburn
December 2, 2006, 07:44 AM
As for rights, I don't know. Like I said, most anyone would agree that a dog owner shouldn't be able to do whatever he wants to his dog. If he beats the dog, he should be punished. Does that mean the dog has the right not to be beaten? I don't know. It seems to mean the dog's got something, though.

Is this really a right of the dog though? Or a restriction on the person who does this? I've spent thought on the subject myself. Is it really the actual beating of the dog that is wrong? Or is it the sadistic nature of a person who enjoys beating the dog that's really what's objectionable?

This fits in with the ideas of 18th century philospher Immanuel Kant. The entire concepts of right and wrong are built on "willing". This is... how to say.. the ability of choice. A human is a beautful and unique thing, in that it has the ability to stand back from primal desires and choose our own path. This ability of choice is the basis of all kindness and good and bad and evil that exists. For example, a man who encounters a boy in the desert. The boy he finds is dying of thirst and in need, and he has a choice. He can choose to offer him some of his water and save him. If he chooses to do this, then this is right. This is good will. He can choose to take advantage of this and rob the boy. If he chooses this, then this is wrongful or bad will. If he was not presented with any choice, like if he never encountered the boy in the first place, then there is neither right or wrong. Do you see what I'm saying? This unique ability of "will", of discretion through consciousness is the entire fundamental base of all ethics!

Now good will is the only thing, in terms of ethics, with intrinsic value. This is kindness, this is compassion, this is love, whatever you want to call it. It's inherent goodness and the only thing in the interest of the whole of morality that has inherent value!

Animals don't have will. And where no will exists, there cannot be good will, and therefore, inherent value.

I wish I were a more articulate man, but I can't seem to phrase this so well. Can something incapable of morality be subject to any moral laws itself? Animals exist somewhere beyond ethics. None of what an animal can do, can be either ethical or unethical. Then can laws of ethics really be applied to it?

Double Naught Spy
December 2, 2006, 08:02 AM
hockeybum said,
people complain about hunting. yet they eat meat...
People are hypocrites. they eat meat, and yet complain about killing animals. they say its okay to eat meat from farms, because they dont suffer...

The fallacy of hockeybum's statement is obvious. He is assuming that those who complain about hunting are complaining solely about those who kill and eat what they kill, and since the complainers eat meat, he thinks they are hypocrites.

There are several things going on here. First, not all complainers are complaining about hunters who eat what they kill. Second, not all hunters eat what they kill. It also assumes that hunters are all ethical and that meat processing companies and ranches that process livestock are unethical.

I have met some outstanding hunters who eat what they shoot, shoot when they have clean shots at ranges they are comfortable with at shooting, using appropriate calibers, and tracking down less than adequate shots with the tenacity of a bulldog. I have met others who hunt ducks without dogs and don't fetch downed ducks that are too far out in the water. I know deer hunters who can't shoot worth crap and have the tracking skills of a blind person on crutches with tactile nerve damage and a poor sense of smell.

There are hunters who are very good stewards of the land, but many are as messy and careless with the land as they are with their homes and families. In fact, the last 3 properties we have purchased all have signs of these nasty hunters.

There are good and bad hunters out there. The really good hunters end up passing like ghosts in the night. The bad hunters leave enough evidence behind that the blind guy mentioned above could find them.

I have no problem complaining about nasty hunters. They may not be in the majority at all, but they do enough reputation damage to make it easy for folks to see hunters as unnecessary evil.

swampdog
December 2, 2006, 09:17 AM
I have no problem complaining about nasty hunters. They may not be in the majority at all, but they do enough reputation damage to make it easy for folks to see hunters as unnecessary evil.


I agree that hunters can be their own worst enemies. The same can be said for the more vocal animal rights activists. While I know a few "trashy, redneck" hunters, most of the anti-hunters I've met, present company excluded, come across as flaky extremists.
The Dismal Swamp bear hunt I mentioned earlier is a good example. There were over 1400 bear killed in Va. last year. The 20 bears they are going to take in the park will have absolutely no effect on the stable population they've maintained there since the 80's. To listen to the activists on the local news channels, you'd think the hunt was for an endangered species.

http://www.portfolioweekly.com/Pages/InfoPage.php/iID/2278
Kristie Phelps of the IDA:

"When I found out basically this would happen in my back yard," she said, "I decided to do whatever I could to stop this huntÖThis is a wildlife refuge - the mere name refuge connotes safety and protection. Now weíre being told a black bear hunt will be held. Our stance is that there is no excuse for recreational hunting. Itís simply not right to kill a bear for sport."

I think the last two sentences of the above statement pretty much cover the matter.
Funny, it seems our government has a different idea of what a refuge is.

Suzanne Baird, refuge manager of Great Dismal Swamp, a federally owned land administered by the Fish and Wildlife Service, said hunting is one of six priorities for the land as defined by federal law.


I've been on several of the managed deer hunts they offer in the refuge. It's a beautiful place that I'm glad I've had the privilege of hunting in.

DirtyBrad
December 2, 2006, 02:29 PM
razorburn,

I think you're getting across what you mean. Animals are amoral. A lion or a baboon doesn't have the capacity to do right or wrong in how they kill an animal. A lot of people would agree that humans do.

I'm not sure how much it matters whether the dog has a right or whether the person has a restriction. I hear what you're saying, though. A dog in nature doesn't have a right not to be beaten, but what I said above sort of implies that around people he does. Maybe you're right, maybe it is just the people. Or maybe what he has is something other than a right. Maybe what he has is a recognition from us that we think he deserves to be treated a certain way by people.

***

I think the point of good hunters passing through like ghosts applies to about everything. It's a shame that those who conduct themselves well and don't make a scene aren't usually the ones that make the impressions. And it's a shame that those impressions are so often the ones on which we base our opinions of that group. Old news, I guess.

gezzer
December 2, 2006, 10:14 PM
gezzer,

I don't think I understand your post.

I don't think there were humans hundreds of thousands of years ago. Which makes it hard to picture us eating anything, much less each other.


Should have been couple hundred as in 2 thousand years or 10,00 years being semantic. so not 100.000 . The main point is WE ATE THE VEGANS. More than likley roasted on a spit.

By the way Chimpanses eat meat Note: they are getting smarter because of it. Ref: Animal planet.

DirtyBrad
December 3, 2006, 12:59 PM
gezzer,

Still not really clear on what you mean. Who are these vegans that you say "we" were eating?

You said that our eyes not being on the sides of our heads is proof that we were "by design" meant to eat meat. By bringing up gorillas, I'm pointing out that the placement of an animal's eyes is not enough information on which to make a decision about its diet. I think the crucial difference between the vegan primates and the omnivorous ones is their ability to process fat and cholesterol.

In any event, there are lot of things humans were designed to do that we can't or don't in modern times, so I don't find that argument particularly meaningful anyway. Regardless of "design", I have free will and the ability to make decisions for myself and I can base those decisions on morality without regard to evolution or nature's plan for me.

I've heard theories that us eating meat contributed to how our brains evolved, but I don't know much about it. My initial (probably biased) reaction is to say that chimps have probably been eating the same diet for a pretty long time, so it's hard to imagine how they're getting smarter. But like I said, I don't know much about it. It would be helpful if you could post a reference. I did a quick Google search, but didn't come up with anything about intelligence. All I found were articles about digestion and finding a wider range of food to eat.

As far as the humans, I believe that we have placed ourselves out of the evolutionary loop. I don't think you mean that eating meat affects an individual's intelligence in their lifetime.

swampdog
December 4, 2006, 12:12 AM
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/gorilla.html

An interesting article by an Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology.

He doesn't feel the diet of gorillas has much to do with a humans healthy diet. Gorillas are not absolutely vegans, either. They've been observed tearing up termite mounds to get to the insects. They also eat grubs and other insects.

It doesn't seem that humans are "designed" to be totally vegetarian, as much as some folks would like it to be so.

As far as the humans, I believe that we have placed ourselves out of the evolutionary loop.

I'd be interested in knowing why you think that's true. Only time will tell if our current evolutionary track is a successful one. There are many more extinct species than there are existing ones. I believe that man in his current form has been around for about 20,000 years, a mere blink in evolutionary terms. I don't think we've "evolved" to the point where we don't need to eat meat, even though technology makes it possible to be a vegetarian with vitamins and food supplements. If you take away the technology, I bet a charbroiled porterhouse would taste pretty good after a month or so. Much better than grubs and grasshoppers, anyway. :D

Man is a predator. He can survive and thrive on a meat diet, as long as it's the right kind of meat and he eats the whole animal. Why do you think early settlers called Indians "gut eaters"?

I was thinking about this thread while I was stillhunting in the swamp, Saturday afternoon. I saw about 20 squirrels, 1/2 a dozen raccoons, some ducks and a couple of does. I never even pulled my revolver from the holster. I guess I ain't much of a predator, huh? Hunting, for many, isn't about killing, it's about hunting. That's something non/anti hunters just don't understand. I will admit, if my freezer was empty, it probably would have had a different ending. :D

DirtyBrad
December 4, 2006, 12:32 AM
I wasn't saying that a human's diet was related to a gorilla's, just that eye placement wasn't an effective means of judging. A gorilla and a man have very different digestive systems and it's clear that a gorilla was "designed" to be vegan (I think we can leave out insects for the sake of argument) and a man is "designed" to be an omnivore.

But again, I don't think that's the final word on what we can or cannot do. There are a whole lot of healthy vegetarians and vegans out there, which, to me, proves that it's a perfectly viable way to live, even if it's not one we were initially built for. And again, there are a lot of things we weren't built for that we do.

The reason that I think we're removed from evolution is that there's almost no more selection. A person with a mutation that makes them more or less likely to thrive isn't any more or less likely to reproduce than one who doesn't. With very rare exception, we pretty much all reach reproduction age with the chance to reproduce.

Imagine that a hundred people were born who could run twice as fast as the rest of us. In nature, those people would thrive, be more likely to survive, and be more likely to mate. So, there would be a few more of them the next generation, and on and on until they had out-competed the rest of us and were the new standard of the species.

But nowadays, they wouldn't have that advantage. They might do well in life and be superior athletes or the like, but they wouldn't be any more likely to reproduce than a dumpy fat guy, so would never become the majority.

That's my understanding, anyway. I'm no evolutionary expert. If I'm mistaken, I hope to be corrected.

mustanger98
December 4, 2006, 12:37 AM
I was thinking about this thread while I was stillhunting in the swamp, Saturday afternoon. I saw about 20 squirrels, 1/2 a dozen raccoons, some ducks and a couple of does. I never even pulled my revolver from the holster. I guess I ain't much of a predator, huh? Hunting, for many, isn't about killing, it's about hunting. That's something non/anti hunters just don't understand. I will admit, if my freezer was empty, it probably would have had a different ending.

That's a lot like my deer hunting goes most of the time... go after deer and see everything else.:D I sat up on the ridge close to my house and seen hawks, owls, foxes... could'a shot plenty of squirrels if I'd had my .22 with me, but a .30-30 would've torn up too much meat. And a lot of times I've seen bucks, they weren't the old big buck I was after so I let 'em walk. Meant to get out there on doe day, but had to be somewhere else that involved a mess of traffic.:cuss: Wound up doing with storebought beef because I didn't get deer steaks those years. But I also have enjoyed a lot of success in being there and seeing I could stay still and calm while the does walked by checking me out... most times I've had them walk almost right up to me and never blew up. I've also had bucks walk right by like they didn't even know I was there. This last time, Thanksgiving evening, I enjoyed a level of success I'd previously found rare. Hunting isn't all about killing for me either, but I'm hoping to get more meat by the end of this season.

Oh... thinking of store bought beef vs deer, I killed that buck and Daddy and I got it worked up... we got pretty steaks out of it. What does Mom do? She goes and stocks up on ground beef like she didn't see the deer in the freezer.:banghead: She knows I killed this buck fully intending to eat the meat. I don't know what she's thinking.

The deer tags in Georgia... we have slots for 10 does. In my county, we have three doe days. We also have slots for 2 antlered bucks. One can be any size, but the other has to have 4pts at least 1" on one side. We have 2.5 months worth of deer season here- October 21 this year IIRC, through January 1. It don't sound so bad until you consider they're saying one buck in the limit is covered by antler restrictions and they're doing that to promote big trophy bucks. The problem is their logic don't seem to work because folks can't take out two older spikes that don't have the genetics to pass on big antlers as evidenced by the small diamter of the pedicles (the bases the antlers grow from between the buck's ears). By taking out as many trophy bucks as lesser bucks, it seems to me we're leaving a lot more small-racked bucks out there goofin' up the gene pool. And in my area we have way too many of that kind. On the other hand, there are some idiots who will shoot a buck and see what it is (not having taken the time to see through their scope or binoculars) and leave it laying if the rack isn't big enough by law. This is another issue of ethical hunting... leaving the dead deer laying to just be wasted is another thing that has been known to give hunters a bad name. Now, as a hunter and as a citizen, I have no intention of violating game laws or engaging in unethical hunting practices, but I'm also a thinking person and I think we, in my state anyway, need to change the law so game management works better.

swampdog
December 4, 2006, 04:20 PM
The reason that I think we're removed from evolution is that there's almost no more selection.

Our lack of natural selection in breeding is an evolutionary track. As I said, only time will tell if it's successful. Your example is 100% correct. Obviously, as more and more people of mediocre ability live to reproduce, more and more people will be born with mediocre abilities. I'm not sure how successful that will be, in the long run.

DirtyBrad
December 4, 2006, 05:35 PM
Yeah, I actually was being a bit optimistic. I think we'll see either zero evolution or "reverse" evolution.

But it's probably a moot point anyway. As you were saying, evolution takes such a stupdendous amount of time that it probably won't matter. The evolution of our civilization happens so much faster and so much more drastically that it seems like it completely overshadows anything else. The small advantages of biological mutation are certainly nothing compared to our abilities to cure disease, feed people on a larger scale, and blow ourselves to pieces.

MCgunner
December 4, 2006, 06:12 PM
Actually, evolution really doesn't necessarily take a lot of time, it happens in spurts, brought on by catastrophic events, or that's the latest thinking anyway. We used to think it was a slow continuous process, but more and more in the geological record, they're finding catastrophic events and then just a few tens of thousands of years later, a whole new biota to fill all the niches left by the departed.

Forward eyes in primates, BTW, are thought to be advantageous to a tree dwelling animal who must judge distance from branch to branch. They helped out when humans became carnivorous, though.:D

Pork chops tonight, the other white meat.:D

SSN Vet
December 5, 2006, 03:34 PM
Jeez Grandpa, everyone knows that milk comes from speedy mart.

Art Eatman
December 5, 2006, 05:01 PM
There are trace elements and amino acids and suchlike that are only available from meat. Healty "vegans" get these from their friendly drugstore.

I've made no study of masses of vegetarian folks, but I've seen darned few who could do a day's hard physical labor around a farm or ranch--or a steel mill, for that matter. Which, of course, is quite different from judging one's health by whether or not one can run a marathon. :)

Homo sap is a predatory omnivore. If the Great Biologist In The Sky hadn't meant it to be that way, we wouldn't be able to eat meat--or need those food elements that are only available from meat.

Art

moewadle
December 5, 2006, 05:41 PM
If it has not already been pointed out, I have not read all these postings, the problem with most Americans is that we eat way too much red meat. It is good for us in limited degrees and if mostly lean, lean, lean. But we overdo it to a great extent at the cost of health and weight problems related, partially, to this eating practice. Fish and fowl are much better for us, if not fried.

DirtyBrad
December 5, 2006, 06:04 PM
Art,

The topic of amino acids is one that is far from settled. There's plenty of evidence suggesting that the so-called magical combinations aren't really that important. I think if you look into some fitness magazines that cite medical and nutritional studies, you'll find that most Americans get way more protein than they should be.

As I said, the only vitamin I take is a regular old multi-vitamin, just like your doctor probably suggests. One thing that isn't debated that I'm aware of is B-12, which is something that vegans often don't get. Not getting B-12 is a bad time, so you have to stay on top of it. If your supplies are low, you can get a shot a couple of times a year. Not sure if the shot is animal-derived or not, but I'll look into it.

I think that the idea of the wan, frail vegetarian is like any other stereotype. The ones you see like that stick in your mind, where the others aren't really noted (if you know they're vegetarians in the first palce).

Once again, I'm not aware of a way to argue anecdotal evidence, like your farm or steel boys. I haven't eaten meat since I was a kid and I've had plenty of physical jobs: factory work, concrete, plenty of time landscaping, etc. No problems from me, but poison ivy.

I'm interested in hearing why those who make the "we weren't designed to..." argument think that it's a logical reason for doing something. We weren't designed to wear shoes or get chemotherapy. From my experience, literally the only thing that ever gets argued from that position is not eating meat. And that includes things that are unquestionably bad for you like smoking or drinking.

MCgunner
December 5, 2006, 06:36 PM
I think if you look into some fitness magazines that cite medical and nutritional studies, you'll find that most Americans get way more protein than they should be.

A high protein diet made us what we are. And, I don't listen to medical studies. One minute saccharin will kill you, next minute (oh, no, we goofed, it actually kills cancer) or whatever, get my drift. My opinion is the medical community has their collective heads up their butts. I SURE don't listen to 'em on the subject of terminal ballistics, guys like Fackler. My opinion is most doctors think they're friggin' Albert Einstein and it goes to their condescending heads. I gave up on the value of the research years ago.

Now then, it is my humble opinion we don't eat too much red meat, we just eat too much fatty meat. Wild game is pretty devoid of the fat and what we evolved eating in the first place. There were no herefords 150,000 years ago.

About 6 years ago, I dropped 45 lbs on the Atkins diet. That one worked and rewarded meat eaters. :D Of course, I gained some of it back. I missed my cereal in the mornings and my beer during the day.:banghead:

DirtyBrad
December 5, 2006, 06:42 PM
If you don't want to listen to science and I don't put much stock in anecdotal evidence, I'm not sure what we have left :)

Thank God for the eternal middle ground of beer.

WolfMansDad
December 6, 2006, 01:47 PM
Thank God for the eternal middle ground of beer.

Oh boy! Now you've p***ed off all the Muslims, Mormons, and Baptists. Will this never end!?

:p

DirtyBrad
December 6, 2006, 01:54 PM
I can be calm and rational talking about moral issues of life, death, and suffering, but I'm going to go bananas if anyone starts bad-mouthing beer.

mustanger98
December 6, 2006, 06:25 PM
Ever hear the story of the 10 year old boy who took a sip of beer and it turned his mouth inside out???

That was me. Seriously. Other than that, I'm allergic to the brewer's yeast. Now, if we were discussing Jim Beam... but I've seen it catch a bunch of flak too.

DirtyBrad
December 6, 2006, 06:28 PM
I would be hard pressed to say a bad word about a bourbon drinker. I can't camp on the river without it.

Art Eatman
December 6, 2006, 10:47 PM
I sorta raise an eyebrow at the too-much notions of either red meat or fatty meat. IMO, it's merely "too much", period. Too (bleep) much total intake of protein, carbo, starches, frou-frou stuff. You eat 3,000 calories' worth and burn off maybe 1,000, hey, guess what?

A large part of our population gets very little exercise, but if you watch them at any cafe, restaurant or fast-food joint, they're loading up like they just got out of a Japanese prison camp. Scary.

DirtyBrad, I know my comment about vegetarians and physical work is anecdotal, but it's a gathering of anecdotes from around a half-century. :)

"Range" magazine is oriented toward western agriculture folks. Anti-tree-hugger. They have a fairly regular column of pictures and short vignettes about meat-eating folks. An amazing number of them are actively working cattle, hauling hay and all that stuff--in their seventies and eighties. "I don't see why I shouldn't work my cattle; I enjoy it. Why quit?" said more than one gnarled and wrinkled old lady or gentleman. "Been eatin' cow all my life!"

Maker's Mark; Woodford Reserve.

:D, Art

MCgunner
December 7, 2006, 08:10 AM
Ever hear the story of the 10 year old boy who took a sip of beer and it turned his mouth inside out???

That was me. Seriously. Other than that, I'm allergic to the brewer's yeast. Now, if we were discussing Jim Beam... but I've seen it catch a bunch of flak too.

Allergic to BEER? My God, life ain't worth living!:banghead: :D I am allergic to hard liquor. Every time I tried it in college, the room started spinning and I threw up four or five times. I leave that stuff alone, too wussie to drink poison. My German heritage demands beer in my diet, though.

DirtyBrad
December 7, 2006, 09:44 AM
Art,

Vignettes about meat-eaters? They must have to really search far and wide :)

I'm not saying meat-eating isn't healthy. I agree that anything done to excess is unhealthy. You can be a fat pig of a vegetarian or vegan, no problem. There are no animals in sugar. Meat-eater or vegan, you can be healthy or unhealthy, of course.

And I think exercise trumps almost everything else. Which is another reason I think arguing the details of diet is largely a waste of time.

As I've said, I think consuming meat is a question of taste only and I don't think that's very important.

Unless we're talking about booze. I love Maker's. Haven't tried Woodford yet, but I'll do some "research" and let you know.

MCgunner
December 7, 2006, 09:57 AM
If you wanna get fat, hit the dough nuts. :D Carbs are evil....I learned that on the Atkins diet. LOL!

mustanger98
December 7, 2006, 12:23 PM
I like those apple fritters I've been getting at Ingle's lately.:D

I'm planning on eating some deer steak, battered and with gravy and bisquits tonight too. I would have fired up the grill and used mesquite charcoal, but it's gonna be too cold and windy this evening.

pax
December 7, 2006, 12:47 PM
I read the first two pages and this last one, and I have to ask: have y'all argued yet about whether cholesterol is necessary for optimal brain development in fetuses, babies, and young children?

pax

DirtyBrad
December 7, 2006, 12:58 PM
pax,

I think the conversation now is more aligned with how bourbon and beer affect the unborn.

I know that vegans reproduce. I also know that extra care is usually taken to be sure the baby is getting enough and correct nutrients, but I haven't seen anything about cholesterol. I'd be interested in seeing what you've found out.

I have to say I'm skeptical that vegan women are having children with brain deficiencies, though.

pax
December 7, 2006, 01:14 PM
Brad ~

My info is probably 17 years out of date (my firstborn's 17th birthday is tomorrow), but came from a book titled What to Eat When You're Expecting. That book was very sympathetic to vegetarianism in general, and did a good job discussing the various nutritional challenges faced by both omnivores and vegetarians in pregnancy. It did make a point of saying that vegans should become ovo-lacto vegetarians for the duration of pregnancy & lactation, because babies' developing brains need a significant amount of cholesterol in order to develop optimally. The citations in the back of the book looked solid to my unscholarly eye -- but as I said, that book was published at least 17 years ago. That's why I asked if y'all had discussed it; I'm curious what current research has to say on the topic.

pax

DirtyBrad
December 7, 2006, 01:28 PM
pax,

Thanks for posting that. Like I said, first I've heard of it. I'll see what I can find out.

If it's true, it would be a case where eating animal products isn't a case merely of taste, but of necessity.

Like I've said, in the question of how my food tastes vs. an animal's treatment, the answer is overwhelmingly clear to me.

As is any question of an animal dying so that I (or, in this case, my unborn child) can live.

MCgunner
December 7, 2006, 01:30 PM
I'm planning on eating some deer steak, battered and with gravy and bisquits tonight too. I would have fired up the grill and used mesquite charcoal, but it's gonna be too cold and windy this evening.

Front blew in here with rain this morning. I'd planned to get up and go sit in the stand, but blew it off. I'll give it a couple of days and go.

Friend of mine stopped by after his graveyard shift this morning anyway to borrow my P85 Ruger to take his qualification for his permit with. He called me last night begging. All he has is a revolver and in Texas, you need to qualify with an auto so you can carry either one, retarded, but the way it is. I'm probably going to take him down there to hunt deer/hog one or two mornings and we're going to get together for second half of duck season. This guy is a good hunting buddy, has a good labrador and an air boat. :D So, I figured I'd take him deer huntin' on my place and call in some chips down the road. LOL

It's supposed to be near freezing in the morning. Saturday morning sounds good, wind'll probaby lay by then.

mustanger98
December 7, 2006, 02:36 PM
I have a wind advisory for my area from noon today through 8pm- they're calling for possible flurries this afternoon- but then the front passes and it gets down about 16F overnight. The high tomorrow's only going to be in the low 40's and I'll be hunting tomorrow evening if everything goes my way.:D The forecast is looking good through Monday when it gets up to 58F and that's the warmest their calling for up till then. This oughta get the bucks moving good and I know there's an old big'un back there 'cause I saw him the Sunday before Thanksgiving when I got that inbred lopsided spike. He was a big-bodied heavy-muscled type, but just didn't have the genetics to make braggin' antlers. We got some purty steaks off of that one... that's what I'm talking about eating tonight.:D

Problem we have in Georgia is antler restrictions. We're required, if we shoot two bucks as allowed for, that one has to be 4Xsomething. They intended that to promote big bucks, but I don't think it's working. I went several years figuring I'd take out the old big'un first and go "any size" after that and I wound up letting several decent shooter bucks walk based on antlers... didn't get my deer those years. I said "forget this" and got my deer this year. I think We the People in my state need to get together and change the law back to no antler restrictions and get a bunch of inbred bucks out of the gene pool.:scrutiny: We got plenty of 'em walking around out here.:uhoh:

langenc
December 8, 2006, 05:06 PM
People are hypocrites. they eat meat, and yet complain about killing animals. they say its okay to eat meat from farms, because they dont suffer...

DirtyBrad
December 8, 2006, 05:35 PM
Well, it lasted longer than I thought a thread about meat eating could ever last...

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