German military after WW2


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Evil Monkey
December 1, 2006, 01:34 AM
Why didn't the German military keep using the STG44 instead of adopting the G3? I don't get it. They had something good, then they went back to the battle rifle...:confused:

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45Seventy
December 1, 2006, 01:46 AM
The stg44 had its shortcomings. Weight was one. It was not a robust rifle, either. As far as I know, the stgs remaining after the war were not destroyed but continued in service, especially with the East Germans. West Germany adopted the G3 in the '50s. In part because it fired the 7.62 x 51mm cartridge - the NATO standard.

outofbattery
December 1, 2006, 01:51 AM
Cheap and ugly version that leaves out plenty of details:It was 10 years after the end of the war that the West German armed forces were reconstituted.In the interim,the border guards were mostly armed with .30 carbines.Getting STG-44's back into production wasn't a big priority in West Germany,reforming an economy was;I doubt anyone really cared where the tooling for them even was,other than in East Germany where they did remain in production and use by their border guards well into the 60's.When the West Germany army was re-formed,it was equipped with mostly US surplus stocks:Garands and the like as they were what was available for no cost but the big reason they ended up with the G3 was NATO standardization on 7.62X51.Remember too that they adopted the FN FAL as the G1 before licensing production of the CETME.

Evil Monkey
December 1, 2006, 01:55 AM
Oh I forgot about that! East and West Germany!:eek: :o :D

Yeah West Germany had to go with NATO and that's why the G3 exists. It's no wonder the East Germans stuck with the STG44 seeing that they had no obligation to change under Soviet rule...except to another assault rifle, the AK and derivatives.:evil:

And the US old school generals were still crying "The rifle must be able to kill at 1,000 meters!".:banghead:

max popenker
December 1, 2006, 03:18 AM
From official book "History of HK": Stg.44 was seriously considered at the start, but was rejected on 2 basic reasons: 1) as politically incorrect (but this had not precluded them from re-adopting MG42 and P38) and 2) because of NATO standardization, which required a 7,62x51 caliber weapon

gunny1022
December 1, 2006, 06:14 AM
What happened to the Panther and Tiger tanks after the war? The Tiger would still be effective 50 years later.

rms/pa
December 1, 2006, 07:36 AM
both the panther and the tiger suffered from complexity problems which slowed production and made them less reliable in the field. also not that many were made of any of them.

with sherman E8's being sold to NATO at scrap prices and the ruskies not really trusting the warsaw pact with tanks at all early on. the benifits just did not outwiegh the drawbacks.

just about the only army scale use of german WW2 AFV designs i can think of was the HETZER used by Switzerland after the war.

rms/pa

El Tejon
December 1, 2006, 08:59 AM
Sweden used the Panther in limited numbers.

Evil, the G3 exists as the Belgians would not allow production of the G1 under license to their former masters. The FAL was in 7.62x51.

And yes, the StG44s that you saw in Iraq and see in Africa come from the former DDR. After reunification the Germans sold A LOT of guns around the world helping fuel the War in the Balkans (their buddies the Croats) and anyone with gold.

.45Guy
December 1, 2006, 10:51 AM
(their buddies the Croats) They armed we Slovenes as well. 26 December I'll be tipping a few:D

X-Rap
December 1, 2006, 11:40 AM
I think I have seen one of these in the courthouse at Meeker Colorado. It is in a contraban display case out side the S.O. in the basement. I couldn't figure it to be anything else, more milling than sheet metal but with basic AK profile. Anybody got another guess, it was hanging to high on the wall to see any marking or fine details. Must be a he77 of a story how it got there. next time I'm there I'll ask.

El Tejon
December 1, 2006, 12:33 PM
Just another GI bring back. Plenty of them around these parts.

SSN Vet
December 1, 2006, 12:43 PM
old pictures of West German Troops doing maneuvers in Panther tanks once.

But then again....I'm probably eligable to have "senior moments" now.

edited to add:

No, I actually think it was an illustration off the box of a Panther tank model.

Mk VII
December 1, 2006, 02:36 PM
When West Germany was allowed to have an army again in the 1950s it was very anxious not to look like the old Wehrmacht revived, as the Soviets so often charged that it was. American weapons, equipment and vehicles were standard at first (as well as being cheap or free)

Bart Noir
December 1, 2006, 04:39 PM
I know a guy who was a Green Beret in the Vietnam boonies, during the '60s. He told me that they used some Stg44 (MP44, call it what you want) and other weird guns, when they went on those completely deniable missions into other countries that we didn't go into. Not ever, not once. Nope.

So I wonder what other use was made of the Stg44. It was heavy, especially compared to the AKM-47 with its stamped and riveted receiver. Did people leave nazi headstamped ammo in odd corners of the world? I ask since I've seen WW2 German 8x57mm rounds with a little eagle-swastika on each cartridge.

Bart Noir
Who hated to sell his Carbine, M1 which was marked Bavarian Rural Police:mad:

Mk VII
December 1, 2006, 04:47 PM
some of them went to SWAPO in German South-West Africa [Namibia]

bartsimpson123844
December 1, 2006, 09:44 PM
The G3 beats the STG-44 in every aspect, IMHO.

45Seventy
December 1, 2006, 09:48 PM
Panther tank? Why do I keep seeing that? I thought it was PanZER, not PanTHER.


Panzer is short for Panzerkampfwagen, German for armored combat vehicle.

The Panther was the name of a Panzer, the Panzer V.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3a/PantherTankColor.jpg/300px-PantherTankColor.jpg

Tony Williams
December 1, 2006, 09:57 PM
The G3 beats the STG-44 in every aspect, IMHO.
Not in controllable automatic fire. The much lower recoil of the 7.92x33 cartridge, combined with the weight of the gun, makes the StG 44 particularly easy to control in burst fire - more so than the AKM, I understand, let alone the G3.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

X-Rap
December 1, 2006, 09:59 PM
El Tejon weren't STG44 automatic weapons and therefore not allowed as war relics

harvester of sorrow
December 1, 2006, 11:42 PM
weren't STG44 automatic weapons and therefore not allowed as war relics

No, prior to the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968, importation of foreign made fully automatic weapons was legal, including as bringbacks by soldiers. To be legal, they would have had to have been registered during the 1968 amnesty. Registered AKs brought back from Vietnam with copies of the Army war trophy paperwork command a premium from collectors today.

X-Rap
December 2, 2006, 12:00 AM
I thought that 1936 or 38 saw the first federal restrictions and registration of full auto, barrel length, overall length and 68 had very little language about FA. More to do with mail order, dealer license, handgun ammo etc.
I have seen jap and german bolt guns as well as pistols and sks from vietnam but never full auto war trophy in civilian hands.

harvester of sorrow
December 2, 2006, 12:23 AM
I thought that 1936 or 38 saw the first federal restrictions and registration of full auto,

The National Firearms Act of 1934 was the law that created the requirements for owning fully automatic weapons, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, etc, hence their designation today as NFA weapons.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 limited the importation of many types of weapons, and completely stopped the importation of foreign manufactured fully automatic weapons except as sales samples for dealers. After it, for example, lend-lease Thompsons could not be imported as complete guns, but could be destroyed as per BATF specifications in a foreign country, imported as parts, and re-welded in this country as a newly-manufactured gun on a Form 1 or Form 2. The Gun Control Act of 1968 also provided for a month-long amnesty for any as yet unregistered fully automatic weapons to be registered and made legal. It provided for subsequent amnesties, but none have been permitted since.

I have seen jap and german bolt guns as well as pistols and sks from vietnam but never full auto war trophy in civilian hands.

There are many World War II era fully automatic weapons that were brought back and are currently in the registry, and I have seen at least 4 or 5 AK-47s and Chinese Type 56s brought back from Vietnam prior to 1968 for sale in the last year or two.

Kaylee
December 2, 2006, 12:35 AM
I've read there's a few Stg44s still in use in Iraq as well. Pity they can't be imported. :(

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