Browning Assault Rifle???


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FlaXD
December 2, 2006, 09:57 AM
Why wouldn't a BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) or other "hunting" rifle make a decent "assault" rifle? Especially if fitted with a picatinny rail and an extended mag.

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Third_Rail
December 2, 2006, 09:58 AM
No one said they wouldn't. ;)

CornCod
December 2, 2006, 10:09 AM
I have often thought about that very issue Flax. Can they hold up to sustained shooting? Most deer hunters I know put about 20 rounds a year through their rifles. Can civie hunting semi-autos tackle, say 500 to 1000 rounds a year? I don't know either. With all the banning of military-style rifles these days, it might behoove me to get a semi-auto in .308 or 30-06.

Highland Ranger
December 2, 2006, 10:23 AM
Can you get decent capacity mags for a BAR?

I think they ship with 5 round capacity.

They are fairly large as well . . . .

TexasRifleman
December 2, 2006, 10:26 AM
Would't the ability to use a high capacity mag pretty much define it as an "assault rifle" in those places anyway?

You could always get the other BAR though I'm not sure I'd want to try to clear a house with it.

http://homepage.mac.com/jayc67/BAR1.jpg

El Tejon
December 2, 2006, 10:40 AM
Durability? I have long wanted to get a BAR MkII in .308, slick it out the trigger and action, put a polymer stock and a Vortex on it and see if I cannot get some custom 20 round mags for it and take it to a carbine class just to see if the thing would actually hold up.

I do have a BAR in .338WM. Loaded with the steel solids, it is more of an anti-thing rifle than an "assault" rifle.:D

browningguy
December 2, 2006, 11:05 AM
It would be eally difficult to put an extended mag on a BAR. I've got a bunch of spares for mine in .270 and 30-06 but still.

HK used to sell the SLB2000, I have one in '06 and it came with 2/5/10 round mags. Unfortunately trying to get spare 10 rounders is really expensive. It's a carbine length, I think 18" barrel, and came with a long weaver style rail for optics.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/Rifles/slb2000-2.jpg

Red Tornado
December 2, 2006, 11:58 AM
TexasSigMan,
That's what Clyde Barrow used as his assault rifle. (And what I thought this thread was about initially :o ) Apparently he was quite the kitchen table gunsmith and would chop off enough barrel and stock until he thought it was handy enough. Sounds like a handful to me, but reports are that 100 pound Bonnie Parker could handle 'em, too.
RT

rockstar.esq
December 2, 2006, 02:31 PM
My bet is that the semi auto hunting rifles like the BAR or the Remington 7400 would work just fine. For crying out loud the Ranch rifles actually qualify by that criteria and from the mixed reviews I've read, they'd at least be reliable at most inaccurate. I genuinely think the 7400 design is up to the task and the whole mag availibility thing could be addressed by some enterprising gunsmith.

I've yet to get a satisfactory answer as to why private gunsmiths don't make magazines. I for one would pay well for an extended magazine for my Beretta 87 target, a replacement mag for my TOZ-78 Tula rifle, and a reliable magazine for my Remington Viper.

GRIZ22
December 2, 2006, 02:51 PM
I have a Remington 7400. The problem with using a rifle like this with a high cap magazine is the barrel is on the light side. If I heat up the barrel by firing 5-6 rounds rapid fire accuracy really goes down the toilet, 5-6" @ 100. Keep shooting it and it gets worst. Let it cool down and it's back to shooting 1 1/2" groups. This may only be unique to my rifle but this has been my observation.

10 rd mags are on the market for the 7400 try Brownell's, CDNN, or Midway.

FlaXD
December 2, 2006, 03:37 PM
Browningguy saidIt would be eally difficult to put an extended mag on a BAR.
OK, why?

From El Tejon:I do have a BAR in .338WM. Loaded with the steel solids, it is more of an anti-thing rifle than an "assault" rifleHmm, have to remember that for future reference! Where does one get steel solids?

1911JMB
December 2, 2006, 04:49 PM
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/Monitor.pdf

El Tejon
December 2, 2006, 05:04 PM
Fla, Speer used to sell the Grand Slam in .338 but I just checked the website and could not find them.:uhoh: Maybe someone knows of a substitute.

jonsidneyb
December 2, 2006, 05:14 PM
Even if we relax the definition of an assult rifle to not be full auto we would be dealing with a battle rifle and if you were using .300 win mag a heavy battle rifle.

Acually the Browning has seen combat in limited numbers. There were some made up with synthetic stock, Heavy barrel and 20 round magazines but these were not used in the battlerifle role. If I remember right they were in the counter sniper role or they might have been used as a sniper rifle.

I am not sure how many were made but they existed.

I can't give you the specs but here is what I have off the top of my head.

Browning semiautomic rifle:
Caliber 300 Winchester Magnum
Barrel heavy
Stock Synthetic
Magazine 20 rounds
Bipod

jonsidneyb
December 2, 2006, 05:16 PM
On the term assult rifle and battle rifle even if both are fully automatic.

The M-16 would be an assult rifle where the M-14 would be a battle rifle.
FN-Lar would also be a battle rifle.

Lucky
December 2, 2006, 10:15 PM
Damn, I was going to mention that in the shootout where 'Babyface' died there were 2 police officers and 2 criminals, and the weapons used were BAR, Thompson, Shotguns and Pistols, a true variety. Of course Babyface was shot over a dozen times and still killed his opponents, so perhaps none of the weapons were enough.

But then I realized that this thread isn't about the BAR.

Number 6
December 2, 2006, 11:31 PM
I've heard from another member of this forum (I think it was Wildalaska) a long time ago that M1918 BAR magazines used or modified to be used in commercial BARs. I have no idea if this is true or not, however.

browningguy
December 3, 2006, 12:02 AM
Browningguy said
Quote:
It would be really difficult to put an extended mag on a BAR.

OK, why?

Just to take one quick look, on Brownings the magazine actually mounts on the floorplate ( at least on my two). So once you remove the floorplate you are going to have to machine inside the action to get it to hold some type of magazine. And maybe a little bit of geometry and trig to make it feed.

Maybe not difficult for you, but for most of us it would be something of a chore.

RevolvingCylinder
December 3, 2006, 12:03 AM
I've always thought the same exact thing. I would really like for someone make high-capacity magazines for a semi-auto detachable magazine sporting rifle. Talk about home defense potential. It doesn't even need to be the BAR.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
December 3, 2006, 12:45 AM
I've been fortunate enough to be on the range (indoors, at that) when TxSIGman had his BAR there. Very impressive item. Kinda makes me want one for myself :D

I assume you're talking about the commercial Browning BAR sporting rifle, correct? It works just fine. If I recall correctly, there were aftermarket mags made for the Remington 74//74/7600/76 series of self-shuckers and pump rifles, though.

Their new pump patrol rifle would be a good place to start, too.

Regards,
Rabbit.

RevolvingCylinder
December 3, 2006, 12:49 AM
If I recall correctly, there were aftermarket mags made for the Remington 74//74/7600/76 series of self-shuckers and pump rifles, though.Really? Where can one obtain these?

Gewehr98
December 3, 2006, 12:50 AM
But Uncle Sam did buy several Browning BAR sporting rifles that were rebuilt by ArmsTech into .300 Win Mag Interdiction Rifles, which saw use in Bosnia:

http://mauser98.com/interdiction.jpg

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
December 3, 2006, 12:52 AM
I think I've seen them from JG Sales. CDNN probably has them, too. Seems to me Eagle made them.

FlaXD
December 3, 2006, 05:21 AM
Maybe not difficult for you, but for most of us it would be something of a chore.It was just a question - not an attack.

Browningguy: you also mention the need to remove the floorplate on the rifle and modify internals. Why? (Just a question again by a knowldge seeker - not a challenge :) )

I was imagining just kludging up a deeper magazine to hold more rounds. Maybe trim the baseplate off one, the top off another, weld them together and pop in a bigger spring.

Today I know 0 about gunsmithing. Tomorrow I'll double that.:uhoh:

jonsidneyb
December 3, 2006, 09:39 AM
The 10 round magazines have been available for the Remington since at least 1982 if not alot before that. For the browning it is going to be more work. The ones for the Browning were not BAR mags but custom built for the military. Any it will not be an assult rifle. It will be an attempt at a battle rifle.

TimboKhan
December 4, 2006, 01:25 AM
I see no reason why it couldn't be used as such, especially when one considers that the chance of most of us having to "assault" anything during the course of our private, civilian lives is pretty much 0. Now, certainly there are better tools for this job, and not all of them are particularly expensive. For example, an SKS, with a high cap magazine, can probably still be had for under $300.00. A used mini-14 with a 20 round mag can probably be had for under $400.00 if you look long and hard.

I can't see why a stock BAR wouldn't work fine in this position, unless your definition of assault is to randomly spray as many bullets as possible in the general direction of the enemy. If you can shoot the BAR, manuever it about with ease and confidence, then I say it will be fine in that role.

Mark Whiteman
December 4, 2006, 03:18 AM
The biggest problem is sporting rifles heat up really fast and aren't heavy enough to dissipate it fast enough. And I'm not talking a lot of rounds. Empty a 10rd mag in half a minute and see how hot the gun gets. The M1918 BAR and the sporting BAR are 2 different animals with regard to rate of fire. Sure, you can improve a 7400 or a 700 with 10rd mags, but they still need cooling time. The stoutness of the internals would limit the life of the sporting semi-autos vs military clones. That plus tolerances in sporting rifles tend to be smaller and replacement parts often need fitting, rather than dropping in as do military designs. With that in mind, the best rifle in a fight is the one in your hands.

FlaXD
December 4, 2006, 08:26 AM
I guess handling heat would be the biggest obstacle to using a hunting rifle to fight off a horde of zombies.

I'm just trying to think of non-"evil gun" alternatives for if/when the really big shtf happens. Yes, evil guns are probably the best but it's always nice to have options.

BTW, I'd been mulling over the BAR Safari in .308 for this - but now maybe not.

greg531mi
December 4, 2006, 09:38 PM
That's what Clyde Barrow used as his assault rifle

I heard that Clyde used a Winchester model 10 in 401 Winchester. with a 10 round mag.

My deer rifle is the HK SL-7, with three and ten round mags.....With it's stuby bull barrel, it outshoots many bolt actions......

Mark Whiteman
December 5, 2006, 12:22 AM
I always wished I'd gotten an SL-7. I hear the magazines are approaching the rifle in price, too! :D I think Model 10s were used as prison guard guns. Maybe thats why he used one.

High Planes Drifter
December 5, 2006, 10:26 AM
greg531, on the History Channel special I saw it was said Clyde Barrow prefered a BAR. As to the original post, I dont think the barrels used on commercial hunting rifles would be very accurate in sustained firing. Internals in a commercial semi auto arent built with heavy sustained firing in mind either.

TexasRifleman
December 5, 2006, 10:29 AM
Here's a photo of one of Clydes cut down BARs.

It's NOT the hunting rifle and NOT the civilian Monitor. It's a WWI surplus 1918 BAR, and Clyde has done some serious cutting.
He loaded this gun with armor piercing ammo and kept it around for dealing with patrol cars.

I have to tell you, owning and shooting a full size BAR, that I would not want to be the one holding this thing when it fired :what:


Note: The term "scattergun" was Clydes, not a mistake on the editors part.

Here is a Monitor, used by one of the Texas Rangers chasing Clyde. Boy I'd love to have a Monitor, wow!

http://texashideout.tripod.com/posseg.jpg

Clyde also had plenty of the full length versions.

http://texashideout.tripod.com/clydenbar.jpg

Clyde is also the reason we have the National Firearms Act of 1934. His shootouts in 1934 and prior caused the mess we are all in now.

You'll notice that every gun that Clyde used was made NFA: SBRs, SBSs, and full auto. Thanks Clyde, you scumbag.

And again, proof if the stupidity in Washington. You think Clyde Barrow was going to care if he violated the NFA? You think the NFA would have kept him from getting these same firearms?

At least some things haven't changed, they are still dense as lead in DC.

jonsidneyb
December 12, 2006, 04:01 AM
Why is it all spraying shots. The Civilian brownings that were used by the military did have heavy barrels.

Just like the Garand and M-14 are not the same kind of gun as a AR-180 or M-16, a semi-automatic hunting rifle made into a fight gun would still be a different animal. It would by more suitable to use like the battle rifles, not an assualt rifle.

Mark Whiteman
December 12, 2006, 05:48 AM
For that matter, unless you are fixed logistically for resupply on the scale of a Battalion or better, it's probably not a good idea to be firing ammo up that fast anyway. Deliberate aimed fire from a distance is much better than CQB. If your opponents get that close you should already be gone, headed to the next defensible position. In that role a hunting rifle of most any type would serve just fine. I've felt for a long time the more ammo and other supplies you have stashed the better, rather than putting too much into fancy hardware of questionable utility. A small group with several scoped Savage bolt guns in .30-06 can do a lot of good at 500yards and farther, whereas if you dumped all your funds into say two or three multi-thousand dollar autoloaders, without enough ammo to sustain yourself through a long period of civil unrest, your situation might be much worse, even though you might be better armed in the short term. Priorities, priorities.

browningguy
December 12, 2006, 02:13 PM
The Browning magazine is a complete box, it clips onto the floorplate and does not actually attach to the magazine well of the rifle. When you lower the floorplate you can just pull the magazine off, then insert a new one, it's not fast of course but works.

To try to make a longer mag work you would have to find a way to support the mag at the correct height in the action. Maybe by machining inside of the action, maybe by machining the floorplate and magazines. To do the floorplate you would need to machine out the center for the magazine to fit through, then come up with a way to support the extended magazine in it. It might be possible to design a complete new floorplate that holds the magazine also.

bowfin
December 12, 2006, 02:43 PM
Weren't those .338 bullets actually marked as "AGS Tungsten Solids"? I noticed also that they were no longer being made in .338" caliber.

They should make fine "anti-thing" bullets.

Sinsaba
June 17, 2007, 02:26 PM
... Clyde is also the reason we have the National Firearms Act of 1934. His shootouts in 1934 and prior caused the mess we are all in now.

You'll notice that every gun that Clyde used was made NFA: SBRs, SBSs, and full auto. Thanks Clyde, you scumbag.

And again, proof if the stupidity in Washington. You think Clyde Barrow was going to care if he violated the NFA? You think the NFA would have kept him from getting these same firearms?

At least some things haven't changed, they are still dense as lead in DC. ...

I would have to respectfully disagree with you here. Politicians that think "gun laws" will stop criminals is why we have the NFA

I do however agree with your assessment that "... at least some thngs haven't chaned, they are still dense as lead in DC"

I happened on this thread because I was thinking in much the same way as the original poster. I was looking (searching on google) for picatinny rails for a Remington 7400 and haven't found any. Any ideas folks?

Bigfoot
June 17, 2007, 03:04 PM
Browning International sells a high cap mag for the BAR (if you call six rounds high cap :o)so it's possible to build a 10-20 round version.

http://www.browningint.com/fichprod/bar.html

http://www.browningint.com/intro.html

I'd get a FAL or M1A myself but do whatever you like.

Eureka Bruce
August 7, 2010, 08:45 PM
Okay, Guys, I have a BAR Mk II 300 WM and have tried to convert it to a larger magazine . . . I have yet to be successful. I bought a BAR 1918 30.06 magazine and cut off the top, then cut off the bottom of the Mk II magazine, thinking it would be a snap to weld or braze them together then cut a hole in the floorplate, yatta, yatta, yatta . . .

Well, it ain't as easy as it appears in one's dreams! For one thing, the 'grooves' don't match up. For another thing, the 1918 magazine has squarer shoulders than the MkII. Then, of course, there's cutting the floor plate . . . not an easy task. The 300 WM is the same length as the 30.06, but it's fatter.

So, I bought another 1918 BAR magazine, thinking that I could just file around on the magazine top so the round would feed okay. I have yet to make that work, either! I know that Browning International makes a higher capacity magazine and floorplate for the MkII. Just try and get one in the US!

I've decided that if I can't hit something with a chambered round plus 3 in the mag, I'd be better off just throwing rocks!

R.W.Dale
August 7, 2010, 08:56 PM
Wow!! thank you for dragging up a dead and gone 5year old topic as your first post

Sam1911
August 7, 2010, 09:47 PM
Bruce, sounds like an interesting project. If you decide to pursue it, please start a new thread in the gunsmithing or rifles forums.

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