Am I crazy? Or, "The SBR'ed MN 91/30"


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Third_Rail
December 2, 2006, 02:58 PM
Ever since seeing a picture of a Mosin Nagant that was quite cut down by someone during WWII for use by the Jewish resistance, I've lusted after one.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=48749&stc=1&d=1165085900

Am I crazy for actually considering spending $200 for tax on a $50 rifle to get what amounts to a useless toy that blinds and deafens all within a large radius?

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Clipper
December 2, 2006, 03:01 PM
...yes...

Third_Rail
December 2, 2006, 03:02 PM
Okay, just making sure. :D

SomeKid
December 2, 2006, 03:14 PM
Would it be possible to put a pistol grip on it, and call it a pistol?

grimjaw
December 2, 2006, 03:18 PM
Third Rail, here's an inexpensive solution for this urge.

1. Roman candle.
2. Cherry bomb.
3. Light both, hold one in each hand.

The medical bills might be a bit expensive, though, now that I think about it.

jm

telomerase
December 2, 2006, 03:57 PM
Actually, if you're wearing electronic muffs it could be a wonderful HD weapon/stun grenade.

This WWII Jewish resistance fighter... he was going to fire this thing in a Warsaw sewer, right :uhoh: ? But at least he didn't have to pay a tax to exercise his right to be overwhelmed by centralized government power.

On the bright side, the Federal Reserve's incessant counterfeiting has taken most of the teeth out of the transfer tax. In a few more years a Mosin will cost more than the tax.

Steelcore
December 2, 2006, 04:00 PM
It needs a scope.......

Hoppy590
December 2, 2006, 04:00 PM
ick. it just looks like a prop from a bad movie. its kinda useless as a hand gun. a shotgun would worked better as a "sawed off" lack of stock removes any long range work. the the size of the cartrigae doesnt lend itself this type of employment

648E
December 2, 2006, 05:00 PM
Well at least it would be a very cheap way to get into NFA ownership.

But yeah, it's really ugly.

Number 6
December 2, 2006, 06:09 PM
It would make a great flamethrower as well.

Geronimo45
December 2, 2006, 06:14 PM
I'm guessing that gun would draw blood if you fired it... your own blood, from the gun recoiling and ramming commie steel into the web of your hand.

Davo
December 2, 2006, 06:30 PM
It must kick like a mule. Still if that rifle could talk...

Cosmoline
December 2, 2006, 06:47 PM
The short Mosins were apparently well known in the East Block and even Finland. They were used as partisan arms, military special purpose arms and esp. for criminal activity after the war. There's a special nickname for them that escapes me. But as I understand it, they were NOT used to fire full powered 54R. The bullet would be pulled and the charge reduced. I've seen a photo of a Finn using one as a signaling firearm at a 1940's era military runway, probably with blanks or practice ammo.

Third_Rail
December 2, 2006, 06:50 PM
Yeah, I should probably clarify that - this would NEVER use full-power loads. Ever.

MatthewVanitas
December 2, 2006, 07:16 PM
If anyone has the Osprey picture-book of the White Armies (of the Russian Rev), there's a great drawing in there of a kulak with a great shorty MN.

There's a special nickname for them that escapes me




Obryez

I don't have the Cyrillic fonts to write it properly. Should come from ob = around, rezat' = to cut.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/1855326566.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_OU01_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Better yet, does anyone in THR-land have the Osprey series so they can scan the image? That way I can prove that it does indeed exist. Don't make me go request it through interlibrary loan...

-MV

Kaylee
December 2, 2006, 08:25 PM
Crazy? Yeah, but oh well. Do what you want I guess... just try to find a M/N that's already had its barrel shot out? :)

I've been wanting to do that to an 1892 for ages, and make a real Mare's Leg. That and an early AR carbine.. whee. Haven't ever looked forward to paying taxes before. :)

sm
December 2, 2006, 08:33 PM
Rubber Band Guns.

Yeah I know not the same, still legal, less expensive, ammo is cheap, no recoil and you shoot these in the house...
...or corner office ...;)

Correia
December 2, 2006, 08:47 PM
I would leave the stock on it and SBR it down to seven inches.

Why not? :) I'll have to see if I get a really cheap beater MN in here and I'll do it.

I love my job.

Novus Collectus
December 2, 2006, 08:51 PM
How about using that hollow bullet, "short range" ammo in it?

Hoppy590
December 2, 2006, 09:18 PM
i agree. it would be alot better as a stocked SBR. would probibly make a nice "SBR Scout" outta it. the whole thing would be no longer than your arm. cant hit a barn from the hayloft. but cool as heck :evil:

pedaldude
December 2, 2006, 10:09 PM
that's awesome, I'd sure like to see photos of one in context.

I'm pretty sure the only way that could be registered as a pistol is by making a whole new receiver for it, in this case it's prolly easier and cheaper just paying the tax.

I wonder if you could just put a chamber insert in and fire 7.62X39 out of it and avoid the reloading aspect since most 54r is berdan primed.

anyway make sure you use a really rough looking example for your replica so it has some "street cred"

I wonder how bad shooting the thing was with full power loads, gangsters used to do the same thing to full auto BARs in the 30s and from what I've read they seem to have used them successfully.

Involute
December 2, 2006, 10:15 PM
I'm no expert, but I think the tax stamp on SBR's is only $5.

wdlsguy
December 2, 2006, 10:20 PM
It's $200 to make an SBR on a Form 1 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf), $200 to transfer an SBR on a Form 4 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53204.pdf)

Involute
December 2, 2006, 10:27 PM
Wasn't there something NFA that was a $5 transfer tax or am I just loosing my mind? :confused:

wdlsguy
December 2, 2006, 10:29 PM
$5 to transfer an AOW on a Form 4. Everything else is $200.

Third_Rail
December 2, 2006, 10:48 PM
Kaylee - already have a cut-down MN that was left in a deer stand over a year or more - it was a POS when I got it, and I cleaned it up. The bore past about 12 inches from the chamber is completely pitted to death, though.


As for stock vs. no stock, well, it's an SBR, and I have an extra stock here. I'll probably use it in both configs.

Involute
December 2, 2006, 10:50 PM
Ok. I'm gonna shut up now and go back being a JAFO. :o

Mr White
December 2, 2006, 11:02 PM
Man, if you pull that trigger, you got a mucb bigger pair of kahunas than I do.

Third_Rail
December 2, 2006, 11:09 PM
The way I figure it is as follows - the TC single shot pistols have been chambered with 10" barrels in .308, and this is about the same, though a bit heavier. It really shouldn't be horrible to fire.

Blackfork
December 2, 2006, 11:09 PM
I bet a Mosin left in a deerstand for a year shoots the same as it did the year before. The guy MAY have left it there on purpose and was coming BACK this year!

All the Jews needed was about another 1000 cut down Mosins and the Nazis would have had to sue for peace. That's a very honorable rifle.

Going doe tag shooting in the morning. My brother who hasn't shot a deer in 30 years is going to tote his Dragonov. I'm taking a nice walnut K31 that I won the Texas Vintage Military Rifle Championship with or an Argentine 1909 Carbine with some 7.65 handloads.

Third_Rail
December 2, 2006, 11:11 PM
Blackfork - it was rusted shut. The bore is pitted. The receiver was badly pitted. The crown was ruined, and the mag springs had to be replaced, along with other small parts.


If he was coming back and expecting to use it, BOY he would've been in for a surprise. It took me hours to even get it cylcing properly.

gp911
December 2, 2006, 11:13 PM
I'd be inclined to take a trashy rusty sewer pipe bore gun and do this to it, then plug the barrel with lead to render it non functional (without telling my friends) and just carve "BMF" on the side and use it as a wall hanger. Let the BS stories begin!


"I shot it occasionally for the novelty of it. Used to load it with Czech silvertip and bet guys $100 they wouldn't shoot it twice. Yep, that gun earned its keep..."


gp911

hankdatank1362
December 2, 2006, 11:18 PM
If there's no shoulder stock, then wouldn't it be a pistol?

Or because it has a foregrip that makes it a rifle... I forget.

Hoppy590
December 2, 2006, 11:31 PM
Involute
its a SBR witha 200 build tax and a 200 transfer tax. this is because it was a rifle ( full stock) if it started life as a reciever having never touched a stock, and then was cut down and registered then it could be a AOW with the 200$ build tax and 5 $ transfer. Or so is my understanding.

hankdatank1362
Once a rifle, ALWAYS a rifle. once a stock has been put on a gun, its a rifle. see above :D

No_Brakes23
December 2, 2006, 11:46 PM
If you go the pistol route, wouldn't it be better just to get a TC barrel in 7.62x54R?

It is an interesting idea, but I wouldn't do it to one of my Finns.

wdlsguy
December 2, 2006, 11:50 PM
If you could find a virgin receiver that had never been built into a complete firearm, you could do a pistol build with it.

Third_Rail
December 2, 2006, 11:51 PM
No_Brakes23.... do you want the bad news?


This wasn't a Finn, as far as I can tell..... it was an ex-sniper rifle, complete with the neatly plugged holes in the receiver. :banghead:


gp911 - I pay the $200 tax, I'm going to use it!

mordrid52
December 3, 2006, 11:43 AM
No_Brakes23.... do you want the bad news?

This wasn't a Finn, as far as I can tell..... it was an ex-sniper rifle, complete with the neatly plugged holes in the receiver.

Ex-sniper MNs aren't particularly rare or valuable. They are just an interesting historical footnote like the Mark I 1903s.

sailorjosh
December 3, 2006, 11:54 AM
Do it! The obryez must live!

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h197/sailorjosh/obryez01.jpg
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h197/sailorjosh/obryez02.jpg
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h197/sailorjosh/obrez.jpg

dfaugh
December 3, 2006, 11:58 AM
Wow....like....Wow....

I would think it would be great for room clearing...With full power loads, the muzzleblast alone would probably take out everyone in a small room (including the shooter!):what:

Carl N. Brown
December 3, 2006, 03:59 PM
Great entry gun, that Obryez: tactical
equivalent of a hand-held flash bang!

Oops, the shooter would end up dazzled and stunned too!

MatthewVanitas
December 3, 2006, 04:30 PM
@ sailorjosh:

You found the Osprey kulak/obryez drawing! You rock.

Can we vote to grant sailorjosh Senior Membership with only 3 posts?

-MV

eab
December 3, 2006, 05:57 PM
After seeing those pics I WANT one of those now!

MatthewVanitas
December 3, 2006, 07:18 PM
A bit of perspective as to the horrendous unfairness of the $200 SRB tax.

Yes, it does bite that we have to pay the tax. Yes, it is silly to pay a $200 tax just to cut the barrel down on a $75 gun.

However, how much gun NIB does $275 get you? Maybe a Kel-Tec.

Lots of good stuff on the used market, but that aside, $275 doesn't buy you much these days.

Heck, even if there were no NFA tax, it'd cost you easily $275 to make a cut-down out of any non-milsurp rifle. Plus you'd look dang silly running around with a synthetic/stainless 10" Rem700.

Just depends whether you feel that $275 is fair for a decent Obryez.

The book "Hunting for Handgunners" had an article by a shooter who carried a sawed-off Springfield 1903 while working in Nicaragua in the 1960s. I'd cite it, but I just sold the book to a THR member 2 days ago.

-MV

Third_Rail
December 3, 2006, 07:29 PM
Obryez! I KNEW THERE WAS A NAME FOR IT! Too bad google doesn't show results.

Gord
December 3, 2006, 10:06 PM
I want to see one with the buttstock intact. It would, quite literally, be a boomstick.

Too bad ATI doesn't make a folding stock for Mosins. :D

Hoppy590
December 3, 2006, 10:18 PM
would probibly make a "mount" with basic machine skills, a frame around the reciever to mimic the stock. with mounts for a folder and pistol grip... or just use a hack saw and wood screws the the original stock :rolleyes:

although i advise anyone out there that wants to do this. do it with a "bubb'ed" gun. dont ruin a perfectly good rifle

Third_Rail
December 4, 2006, 04:23 AM
Since there's going to be a $200 tax to do this, I don't really mind either way what gun it's done to. I certainly wouldn't do it to an 1895 receiver, but a regular MN, whatever. I'll have to dredge this thread up in a few months once I decide how to make it.

pbhome71
December 4, 2006, 02:50 PM
Can we vote to grant sailorjosh Senior Membership with only 3 posts?

-MV


I second the motion. Sailorjosh - You are totally rock! That is a great find on the drawing.

-Pat.

eab
December 4, 2006, 04:23 PM
What would be the leagleties of doing something like this with a Mauser reciver? You can pick them up, just the reciver (sometimes barrel), could you then cut it down, (or add a short barrel), and then throw it in a cut down old stock? You don't need a NFA $200 transfer for AR 15 pistols, do you? This would be simaler woud it not?

MatthewVanitas
December 4, 2006, 04:30 PM
You don't need a NFA $200 transfer for AR 15 pistols, do you?


Nope, they're officially handguns because they left the factory as handguns.


This would be simaler woud it not?

Nope, they're officially rifles because they left the factory as rifles.

Therefore, a Mauser/Nagant/RemChester would require $200 to cut down.

Note that a factory-issued cut-down Rem Model 7 is an XP-100 pistol, and totally legal as just a normal handgun. Because it... left the factory as a handgun.

Laws don't have to make sense, that's why they're called "laws".

wdlsguy
December 4, 2006, 04:42 PM
From ATF letter & pistol builds (http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=245366) at ar15.com:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/BiggBore/ATFEARPistolInternetletter.jpg

MisterPX
December 5, 2006, 05:24 PM
Go for it!!!
If the $200 ain't gonna kill you, do it. The hard part is deciding what barrel length you'll want.

kfranz
December 5, 2006, 05:53 PM
What would be the leagleties of doing something like this with a Mauser reciver? You can pick them up, just the reciver (sometimes barrel), could you then cut it down, (or add a short barrel), and then throw it in a cut down old stock? You don't need a NFA $200 transfer for AR 15 pistols, do you? This would be simaler woud it not?

Never been built Mauser receiver, yep. Once a rifle now a stripped receiver Mauser receiver, nope, for the reasons mentioned above.

Third_Rail
December 5, 2006, 06:32 PM
MisterPX - somewhere between 6" and 10" for a barrel length, I believe.

crunker
December 5, 2006, 07:38 PM
That looks interesting, but I'd rather have it with a stock.

deputy tom
December 5, 2006, 07:46 PM
Crazy no,mashuguna yes.tom.:neener:

Dionysusigma
December 5, 2006, 09:18 PM
If I personally were to get a Mosin SBRed, I think I'd do something like this, first:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=48902&stc=1&d=1165367809

... and when I got back from the doctor (psycologist, psychiatrist, and medical) I'd put a good recoil pad on it, along with using a PAST. :o

Sniper4Life
December 5, 2006, 09:36 PM
I wish I had one of those, the trick to shootin a gun like that, (12 ga, 3 1/2 slug, I thougt it was 2 1/2 in shot. Oh by the way pistol grip) is to hold the pistol grip and hand right below your rib cage and press into your gut. When I shot I thought it kicked harder than normal, then went on to shoot the remainin 4. It would probably work with a gun like that, I would like to try.:D

Stiletto Null
December 10, 2006, 07:41 PM
1. Darrell Mount
2. Red dot sight
2. Single-point sling

arthurcw
December 11, 2006, 06:27 AM
1. Darrell Mount
2. Red dot sight
3. Single-point sling

Stiletto Null,

M/N Stands for Mosin Nagant, not Mall Ninja.

Stiletto Null
December 11, 2006, 12:06 PM
Wouldn't be any more tacticlol than any number of race guns or giant-ass hunting pistols with scopes on them.

And it's not like the thing actually has a front sight, which would impede aimed fire.

kfranz
December 11, 2006, 02:36 PM
If I personally were to get a Mosin SBRed, I think I'd do something like this, first:



... and when I got back from the doctor (psycologist, psychiatrist, and medical) I'd put a good recoil pad on it, along with using a PAST.

Ah yes, the rare Nagant Model 91/59/06

Father Knows Best
December 11, 2006, 02:45 PM
Third Rail, you're my hero. You definitely need to build that thing. You let me shoot it, and I'll buy the beers (and Advil) we'll need to recover.

I'm thinking a hockey helmet with a full face mask would be a good thing to be wearing when you touch it off....

PTK
December 20, 2007, 02:01 AM
Being that this thread is what originally spurred my interest in desecrating a Mosin I reckoned it was only right to post my masterpiece here. Enjoy.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7862/mn9130sbr1ot0.jpg
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1363/mn9130sbr2hl0.jpg

collateral
December 20, 2007, 02:05 AM
I wonder if you could just put a chamber insert in and fire 7.62X39 out of it and avoid the reloading aspect since most 54r is berdan primed.

Since the x54 casing is rimmed and a different size, youd need a different bolt.

That thing looks insane haha, but very cool at the same time. I dont imagine it would be possible to fire some heavy ball through that haha.

Cosmoline
December 20, 2007, 02:07 PM
Your obryez is sweet. Have you actually fired full power loads from it? Because I'd love to see that on youtube.

07Lway
December 20, 2007, 02:20 PM
I think I would be wearing a helmet, double hearing protection, flame retardant clothing, padded gloves, eye protection (even with the helmet shield), and my biggest set of balls to be able to pull the trigger on that beast with full power loads...

PTK
December 20, 2007, 02:22 PM
I will ask around as I'm certain I know someone out here with a digital recorder.

Yes I've fired full power loads. Recoil is brisk, the fireball is huge, and a rather odd grip of thumb along the side of the stock is needed to keep the cocking piece from tearing into the web of your hand.

Cosmoline
December 20, 2007, 02:58 PM
I can only imagine how big that fireball would be, given how much there is out of the M38.

PTK
December 20, 2007, 02:59 PM
About the size of a basketball. Court.

Davo
December 20, 2007, 04:07 PM
Very cool, id be using reduced loads if I had one. Any plans for sights on that thing?

rjohnson4405
December 20, 2007, 04:15 PM
Congratulations, I'm glad you got to finish a project you really wanted. That would be fun to shoot, I think. I for one would probably rather have that than a normal Mosin.

jrfoxx
December 20, 2007, 05:16 PM
While they do look pretty darn cool, and Its about the cheapest SBR one coud make to boot, and Ill likely do it myself, someday, I just cant imagine firing that thing.My m44 abuses me pretty good if I dont put a recoil pad on it.....
Still, I'd have to fire it once, just to do it, but I'm sure I'd be cured after that...

Jackal
December 20, 2007, 05:44 PM
Now, to fit that into a Ruger Charger-esque stock.....:D

PTK
December 21, 2007, 10:50 PM
Jackal

That's not even funny. That's just sick. I may rig a Knoxx Breachers Grip to this someday, to cut down on recoil.

Gator
December 21, 2007, 10:58 PM
This (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30289) guy made a "Tactical" Obryez. :what:

Anteater1717
December 22, 2007, 12:48 AM
I want one:evil:

But I would keep the shoulder stock. Imagen the fireball!!!

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