Steel cased .223 work ok in AR's?


PDA






Frog48
December 3, 2006, 12:14 AM
Does anybody regularly shoot steel cased .223 in their AR-15? I'm seriously considering getting a Bushmaster (maybe as early as this week), and have noticed that Wolf, Brown Bear/Silver Bear, Monarch, etc imported steel cased ammo is 1/2 the price of American made brass cased ammo.

Is there any reason that I shouldnt use this ammo in an AR?

If you enjoyed reading about "Steel cased .223 work ok in AR's?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
MikeH
December 3, 2006, 12:47 AM
I've shot over 2000 rounds of Wolf polymer-coasted ammo out of my DPMS upper. So far, so good.

One problem I've heard others have was that steel cases wear out the extractor faster. However, with the savings you get, you can buy a lot of extractors.

possum
December 3, 2006, 12:49 AM
i have shot approx 1500rds in my bushmaster ar15 and i had no extractor problems. and even if you did after many many thousands of rounds, extractors are very easy to change out on the ar's, removing the extractor is part of my cleanning process after each range session.

1911JMB
December 3, 2006, 12:50 AM
The powder in Wolf ammo makes guns real dirty real fast. AR's work when sparkling clean. I remember David Fortier putting over a thousand rounds of wolf through a Carbon 15 Type 97s or whatever its called and it worked fine, but beyond that I would think it would be a bad idea. AR's are delicate machines which jam a lot with regular ammo after a while when they get dirty, and wolf ammo would plug them up pretty fast.

BAT1
December 3, 2006, 12:55 AM
The Wolf voids Bushmaster warranty. It's dirty as Monarch. I use Winchester Q3131 5.56 Black Hills 60 gr 223, Local reloads .223 and Guatemalan 5.56, but not Wolf and have never had a problem. Federal Lake city is the ticket in bulk.

possum
December 3, 2006, 01:04 AM
Federal Lake city is the ticket in bulk.
in a perfect world yes it is, but ammo prices on that particular ammo is getting crazy expensive. i don't know about you guys but i am on a budget and 1000rds of that stuff for the price isn't worth it to me. i have gotten pretty lucky in finding some good deals on umc from other people at the range, a couple guys have a whole bunch of it, and no ;longer want to use it either because they got rid of their weapn, or they are into varmint hunting, and want something a little better for hunting.

Frog48
December 3, 2006, 01:16 AM
The Wolf voids Bushmaster warranty.

Does anybody know where this is actually written? Are you sure its not just a rumor? I cant find anything about the topic on the Bushmaster website.

Holtzman
December 3, 2006, 01:44 AM
From the Bushmaster site: BUSHMASTER PERSONNEL HAVE USED THE FOLLOWING AMMUNITIONS in various calibers for testing
at the factory, and found they will cycle without malfunction and have not caused damage or problems:
PMC / SPEER / REMINGTON / WINCHESTER / WOLF / SELLIER & BELLOT
AMERICAN EAGLE (Federal Manufactured) / M.E.N. (German Manufacture)

Article at http://www.bushmaster.com/documents/ammoadvisory.pdf

I would think that means Wolf is OK, at least for the warranty.

Dionysusigma
December 3, 2006, 01:46 AM
"Bushmaster Firearms, International LLC will not be responsible for the results of careless handling, unauthorized adjustments, defective, low quality, reloaded, or improper ammunition, corrosion, neglect, ordinary wear and tear, or unreasonable use."
from http://www.bushmaster.com/help/warranty.asp

Further talk about bad ammo:
http://www.bushmaster.com/faqnew/content_by_cat.asp?contentid=161&catid=98

"USE ONLY CLEAN, DRY, HIGH QUALITY COMMERCIALLY MANUFACTURED AMMUNITION IN GOOD CONDITION which is appropriate to the .223 Rem. caliber of your firearm. We do not recommend the use of remanufactured or hand loaded ammunition because it may damage your rifle. Use of improper ammunition will invalidate your warranty."
from http://www.bushmaster.com/faqnew/content_by_cat.asp?contentid=134&catid=98

"THE BEST WAY TO AVOID MALFUNCTIONS (JAMS): 1. Use good quality ammunition from a reliable manufacturer."
at the bottom of http://www.bushmaster.com/faqnew/content_by_cat.asp?contentid=163&catid=98



As far as their site goes, though, it looks like they've no information regarding steel-cased ammo anymore. *shrug*

possum
December 3, 2006, 02:02 AM
i see no info about steel cased in my manual, and there is nothing i see that would void the warranty, in the way of wolf ammo. i am still gonna use it regardless.
"Bushmaster Firearms, International LLC will not be responsible for the results of careless handling, unauthorized adjustments, defective, low quality, reloaded, or improper ammunition, corrosion, neglect, ordinary wear and tear, or unreasonable use."

what is low quality about wolf ammo?
"USE ONLY CLEAN, DRY, HIGH QUALITY COMMERCIALLY MANUFACTURED AMMUNITION IN GOOD CONDITION which is appropriate to the .223 Rem. caliber of your firearm. We do not recommend the use of remanufactured or hand loaded ammunition because it may damage your rifle. Use of improper ammunition will invalidate your warranty."

my wolf ammo is clean, dry, and in good condition, and is the appropriate caliber for my weapon.

jsdavenport
December 3, 2006, 02:31 AM
AR's are delicate machines which jam a lot with regular ammo after a while when they get dirty, and wolf ammo would plug them up pretty fast.


I guess I must be pretty lucky. The 5 Ar's that I currently own never jam with any ammo I shoot from them. Most of which is wolf. 4 of the 5 were built by me from parts kits but one is a factory bushy. YMMV

possum
December 3, 2006, 02:34 AM
I guess I must be pretty lucky. The 5 Ar's that I currently own never jam with any ammo I shoot from them. Most of which is wolf. 4 of the 5 were built by me from parts kits but one is a factory bushy. YMMV

got any pics? i would like to see how you have them set up! 5 that's alot but heck if i could build them i would pobally have em out the wazooo to!

nyresq
December 3, 2006, 02:39 AM
The Wolf voids Bushmaster warranty. It's dirty as Monarch. I use Winchester Q3131 5.56 Black Hills 60 gr 223, Local reloads .223 and Guatemalan 5.56, but not Wolf and have never had a problem. Federal Lake city is the ticket in bulk.

if you're worried about wolf voiding the warranty, then reloads probably are a good thing to avoid. I can't say for bushmaster, but S&W, Colt and Remington specificly state in the owners manual that using reloads voids any warranty...


and I would not consider wolf steel case to be low quality. cheap, yes, but not low quality. I have fired 4-5,000 rounds through my colt without a single problem.
I clean my colt 6920 every thousand rounds or so, which I don't think is more then expected, and the wolf powder is no harder to clean off then any other brand. it just seems to collect faster, and smells funny. Gunscrubber takes it right off and outers foaming bore cleaner takes it out of the barrel. easy enough... especially if I spray it the same day. if it sits for a few weeks it takes a little brushing to clean out the bolt carrier and gas rings.

GunnySkox
December 3, 2006, 02:39 AM
My limited AR experience:

440 rounds, 1 failure to extract
240 rounds regular ol' Wal-mart .223
200 rounds Wolf .223

~GnSx

Thin Black Line
December 3, 2006, 08:25 AM
Every few hundred rounds or so....or maybe it's 1000....I'll get a stuck case
that requires a tap out with a cleaning rod. This is even with paying close
attention to cleaning the chamber, etc. No big deal.

CornCod
December 3, 2006, 08:34 AM
Spend something on the order of $250 and get yourself a Saiga .223 to shoot cheap ammo. AK's will shoot nearly anything.

Gary G23
December 3, 2006, 09:02 AM
It really depends on the gun. Some work fine with steel cased ammo and some don't.

I had a Bushmaster that I put 10,000 rounds of Brown Bear ammo through. It worked fine until the extractor finally broke. BUT with the money I saved on ammo I was able buy a new extractor AND a new gun.

I sold the Bushmaster and bought a new LMT but the steel cases stick in the LMT chamber. You never know.

wacki
December 3, 2006, 09:15 AM
the wolf powder is no harder to clean off then any other brand. it just seems to collect faster, and smells funny.

:scrutiny:

My truck is not in any worse condition than the truck your grandma drives. My truck just collects dirt faster from off roadin. And it smells funny from all the cow poo. But other than that it's exactly the same.

:scrutiny:

jagdpanzer347
December 3, 2006, 10:40 AM
Greetings all. First off, let me say I don't shoot Wolf(in .223). Usually I shoot Radway or Guat for range/plinking use. However, I have read that the biggest problem with Wolf is shooting brass cased ammo after Wolf without a thorough cleaning. It seems the steel casing doesn't expand as much as brass and allows the chamber to get alot dirtier. When shooting brass cased ammo in this dirty chamber it can lead to bent or torn case rims, stuck casings etc. Anyone here had this problem?

-jagd

jem375
December 3, 2006, 10:49 AM
I know that DPMS recommends not shooting steel cased ammo through their ar15's and that's good enough for me....I do shoot it in my AK's and SKS's because I think their extractors are stronger.....

MechAg94
December 3, 2006, 10:54 AM
"USE ONLY CLEAN, DRY, HIGH QUALITY COMMERCIALLY MANUFACTURED AMMUNITION IN GOOD CONDITION which is appropriate to the .223 Rem. caliber of your firearm. We do not recommend the use of remanufactured or hand loaded ammunition because it may damage your rifle. Use of improper ammunition will invalidate your warranty."
Are you sure this note is not about a .223 target gun and not a gun that is chambered for 5.56 mm?

I have used several hundred rounds of Wolf through my Armalite with no problems. I have had problems with only two different types of ammo: Cheap .223 loose in bags bought at a gun show. Primer pockets would fall out of rounds and hang up in the action. - Federal XM193 - It shot okay, but had the same problem with the primer pockets. May have just been the reject ammo. I don't know.

Wolf, Winchester, S&B M193 have all worked well.
I guess I did try that Wolf M193 ammo and it tended to short cycle the gun. The gun was dirty at the time though.


Also, I bought a spare bolt with extractor for the cost difference between a case of Wolf .223 and brass ammo.

Frog48
December 3, 2006, 11:27 AM
"Bushmaster Firearms, International LLC will not be responsible for the results of careless handling, unauthorized adjustments, defective, low quality, reloaded, or improper ammunition, corrosion, neglect, ordinary wear and tear, or unreasonable use."

"USE ONLY CLEAN, DRY, HIGH QUALITY COMMERCIALLY MANUFACTURED AMMUNITION IN GOOD CONDITION which is appropriate to the .223 Rem. caliber of your firearm. We do not recommend the use of remanufactured or hand loaded ammunition because it may damage your rifle. Use of improper ammunition will invalidate your warranty."


That does not specifically exclude any brand of new manufacture ammo. The terms "low quality" and "high quality" are subjective terms, and open to interpretation.

I guess when I get my AR, I'll go ahead and stock up on Wolf and the like. I'll shoot brass cased ammo regularly, but keep a stock of cheap ammo for a "rainy day".

HGUNHNTR
December 3, 2006, 11:47 AM
You may not break your extractor right away, but I don't want steel on steel in the chamber of my match rifle that costs over a thousand bucks. Would you?? Why skimp on ammo in such an expensive rifle, when it will eventually damage your rifle.:banghead:

possum
December 3, 2006, 12:43 PM
You may not break your extractor right away, but I don't want steel on steel in the chamber of my match rifle that costs over a thousand bucks. Would you?? Why skimp on ammo in such an expensive rifle, when it will eventually damage your rifle.

I am pretty sure we are not talking about any shape or form of a match rifle bro. most people here have m4 type rifels, normally used for medium range plinking and range use. i use mine out to 300meters, and in cqb drills. i don't have a "match rifle" i don't need one, i don't shoot competitions, etc. but if i did it would eat only the best blackhills that was the most accurate out of my particualr rifle. most likly the sierra match king.

rangerruck
December 3, 2006, 12:49 PM
i wouldn't. go with the plain jane black hills, or the winny white box 45 grian varmints, they should both be 11 to 13 dollars a box of 50 and 40 rounds, respectively. which is about 20 cents a round.

Frog48
December 3, 2006, 06:09 PM
I am pretty sure we are not talking about any shape or form of a match rifle bro. most people here have m4 type rifels, normally used for medium range plinking and range use.

Exactly. I'm looking at a Bushmaster M4 type carbine.

Why skimp on ammo in such an expensive rifle

Like I said, I plan to shoot brass cased ammo. But its nice to know that I could use steel cased ammo in a pinch.

HGUNHNTR
December 4, 2006, 08:50 AM
And why would you want to damage the chamber of your subpar m4 bro..uh possum?

Bartholomew Roberts
December 4, 2006, 10:35 AM
How is the steel used in a Wolf rifle case going to damage a chamber made out of 416SS, 4140 or a 4150/chrome lined M4 chamber? You are talking completely different grades of steel.

The main problem I have seen with Wolf is stuck cases. My hypothesis on that is that the steel doesn't expand the same way as the brass and over multiple rounds you get carbon build up around the chamber walls in places where it normally wouldn't build up because the brass seals it during shooting.

As for doing damage to the gun, you could buy a new bolt with every case of Wolf you shoot and still come out ahead on money. So I wouldn't worry about damage. However, if you are doing any kind of training where you need better than 4MOA accuracy, you probably won't get it out of an AR15 and Wolf combo.

HGUNHNTR
December 4, 2006, 02:52 PM
Repeated friction between the steel casing, combined with heat will damage the steel in the chamber. Heat and friction do bad things. Is .223 brass cased ammo that expensive. I'm just saying what I would use in my firearms because I try to take the best care of my firearms as possible, what might work, and what may not harm a gun is not a consideration for me. I take too much pride in my guns to run junk ammo through them. If you want to AMEN!

If you enjoyed reading about "Steel cased .223 work ok in AR's?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!