When shooting a peep sight . . .


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dmftoy1
December 3, 2006, 08:18 AM
Do you completely ignore the peep and just focus on the front post and it's placement relative to the target or do you try to "center" the front post consciously within the peep and then hold the front post appropriately? When I'm playing with my AR I find that my groups are nowhere near as good as I can do with a buckhorn sight on my 45/70 and I suspect it's user error. I know the rifle will shoot as I can put a scope on it and the groups look good.

Just curious about the proper "peep" technique. :) (I grew up shooting buckhorn's so I'm guessing it's just technique)

Have a good one,
Dave

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MaterDei
December 3, 2006, 08:23 AM
The front sight doesn't necessarily have to be centered within the peep BUT for accuracy it must be consistantly at the same place relative to the peep. Centered is a good rule of thumb.

GRB
December 3, 2006, 08:55 AM
Centering the front sight in the rear is the most practical way to do it. It should be centered because this makes it easier to remember the correct sight picture. Of course, once it is centered correctly, you let the rear sight blur and focus on the front.

All th e best,
Glenn B

bhk
December 3, 2006, 09:14 AM
I have been shooting peeps for 40 years, both for target and hunting purposes. You should find them far more accurate than notch type sights. Prone competititve shooters with peeps shoot scores that compare favorably with those using scopes.

Your eye should automatically center the front post in the peep. No conscious effort should be needed. If you are consciously attempting to center, my guess is you are more likely to mess up.

AK103K
December 3, 2006, 09:27 AM
I agree with bhk, no conscious effort should be needed, your eye should automatically center the front post. You just look through the rear (paying it no mind) at the front and shoot.

daniel (australia)
December 3, 2006, 09:29 AM
I've used peep sights a fair bit, in military service, target shooting and hunting over the past roughly 30 years, and I still have several rifles with peep sights even now.

My advice is to put the rear sight out of your mind. Simply look through it, and otherwise ignore it. Focus on the tip of the foresight (assuming you're using a blade) and trust your eye subconsciously to centre it. Your eye and brain will do this without any conscious effort.

BozemanMT
December 3, 2006, 09:36 AM
Front sight, Front sight, Front sight.

Ignore the rear sight, it will naturally center.
This is part of why you want to be up so close so your eye naturally is way up on it and it can't help but look through it.

Also why peep sights are so fast to acquire targets. (M1, M1A, AR's, etc)

robert garner
December 3, 2006, 12:35 PM
also keep BOTH eyes open!
I canteven see pistol sights anymore, butthe aperature sights keep on working!
Hope you learn to enjoy them as much as I do!
robert

rangerruck
December 3, 2006, 01:52 PM
bhk is corrct here, also if you are trying to really get teeny groups, you may need a disc for your rear site. if yours is big enough to stick the sharp end of a pencil through, it is too big.

lionking
December 3, 2006, 02:12 PM
agreed agreed !front sight focus!....no matter what type of iron sights or firearm (except shotgun)used.The day I learned this is the day my shooting skills improved alot.

Though,I have not had the time or money lately to go shooting often and when I have lately I find myself having to remind myself to focus on the front sight.Practice practice just like anything makes you better.Even after a few shots I start to feel warmed up and can concentrate better.

focus on the front sight,rear sight blured,target blured.

Jenrick
December 3, 2006, 04:38 PM
One thing I found on line (I'll see if I can find the site and add it later):

put a small but distinctive mark on the front sight post, that you can only make out when focusing on the front sight. That way whenever you get a sight picture you know for a fact that you're focusing on the front sight. It helped me tremendously at longer ranges.

-Jenrick

Wes Janson
December 3, 2006, 04:43 PM
A while back Police Magazine had an article on carbines and peep sights, and I thought it interesting because the author of the article clearly stated that you're to focus on the *rear* sight instead of the front. Really bad brain-fart that no one caught? Or some sort of alternate shooting method I've never heard of?

AK103K
December 3, 2006, 05:02 PM
I would say it was a brain fart. If you concentrate on the rear sight, your not going to hit much.

One downside to peep sights (also affects Scout scopes) is low sun behind you. It makes it difficult to see the front post due to the rear sight being brightly illuminated.

While I really do like peep sights, I do think the big HK notch on their G3's/HK91's and the open, leaf type, like on the AK's and most hunting rifles, are better for fast shooting, in all light, from 100 yards in.

30Cal
December 3, 2006, 07:09 PM
I make a concious effort to align the sights (most of that is assured by a consistant head position and a good stock/cheek weld).

For easy targets, you can just focus on the front sight and let the alignment take care of itself. If you want to see what the rifle can really do, you'll have to work for each and every shot.

Ty

de
December 3, 2006, 09:23 PM
Having been a police dept. firearms instructer and tactical team leader and trainer, I can tell you bhk is positively correct. Your eye will automatically seek the best focus when looking thru the apeture with the best view being dead center. Your nose should be no more than two inches from the rear sight and focus on the target with the front sight being centered on desired poa. Look thru the peep sight, but ignore it, and let your eye do its job. You will see you groups shrink. For close in flip (less than 100yds) up the ghost right rear and experience one of the fastest sight alignments ever.

dmftoy1
December 4, 2006, 07:21 AM
Thanks guys! I think I need to keep practicing!! :)

The reason I was asking was that I had kept trying to put the wings on the AR front sight at a consistent spot on the outline of the circle and that seems to me to be an impossibly task. I think i'll just adjust my head position a bit (as recommended) and concentrate solely on the front sight.

Thanks again,
Dave

Swampy
December 4, 2006, 09:02 AM
The reason I was asking was that I had kept trying to put the wings on the AR front sight at a consistent spot on the outline of the circle and that seems to me to be an impossibly task. I think i'll just adjust my head position a bit (as recommended) and concentrate solely on the front sight.

Good plan..... as the method you were using previously (indexing off the front sight wings) is a sure way to induce putting the top of the SIGHT POST in a different location every time..... and if the top of the post is not in the same place every time, the bullet won't go to the same place either.

The reason this is so is that any inconsistency in head placement fore and aft (If you are indexing off the sight wings) means that the top of the front post is changing its position relative to the center of the rear aperture with each shot. Not a good way to keep'em all going to the same place.

IGNORE the rear sight
IGNORE the front sight wings

Concentrate purely on front post FOCUS (And head placement consistency) and you will be miles ahead.

Best regards,
Swampy

Garands forever

SSN Vet
December 4, 2006, 01:59 PM
I just started a thread today detailing my first range session with my newly installed Williams 5D on my Marlin 336.

The way my eyes "automatically" centered the front sight was really cool. I think I definitely made the right choice going with the peeps vs. a scope on this rifle.

techmike
December 4, 2006, 07:42 PM
A good rule of thumb on an ar-15/m-16 is to toucgh the tip of your nose to the charging handle. It gets your eye in about the right spot and helps you be consistant.

Zullo74
December 4, 2006, 09:19 PM
Unless you've got a really long neck, you can't touch your nose to the charging handle in offhand and still have the A2 buttplate against your shoulder. If you are shooting NRA Highpower competition, NRA rule 5.12 allows for the butt to be placed anywhere from the elbow to the shoulder (upper arm). I wouldn't recommend trying the nose on the charging handle with the butt on top of the shoulder scenario with an un-weighted AR-15/M-16. It WILL bruise your nose! FWIW JMHO YMMV :D

techmike
December 4, 2006, 10:09 PM
I don't shoot competition with my ar's and mine wear A-1 stocks (except for my sbr's). ymmv, but nose to ch works well for me and a number of others as well. May not work for you and apparently not for Zullo74.:) Only way to find out is to give it a try.

blackhawk2000
December 4, 2006, 11:09 PM
I always put my nose on the charging handle, and it never bruises.

AK103K
December 5, 2006, 06:49 AM
If you have a mustache, you may want to hold your nose back just a tad. The resulting hair caught in the charging handle is more painful and distracting than a bump on the nose. :)

BigG
December 5, 2006, 08:31 AM
A good rule of thumb on an ar-15/m-16 is to toucgh the tip of your nose to the charging handle. It gets your eye in about the right spot and helps you be consistant.

Don't get me wrong - I don't shoot competitive high power but I know gamers look for every opportunity to get more points.

A better rule of thumb is: You should learn to bring the gun to your face, not your face to the gun. Adjust the gun so it comes up to your natural good shooting position and has a good sight picture. Do not adjust yourself to the gun's idiosyncrasies.

As far as how to shoot the standard peep sight -The guys are correct who said look through it and put the tip of the front sight where you want to hit.

X-Rap
December 5, 2006, 12:52 PM
I may have missed it but no one recomended using the front ears as alignment for the edge of the aperture then the front sight should be adjusted to allow target to sit uppon front post. If this is done at 100m and rear is set such the sights should be calibrated for issue ammo.

Works for me.

Swampy
December 5, 2006, 01:29 PM
I may have missed it but no one recomended using the front ears as alignment for the edge of the aperture then the front sight should be adjusted to allow target to sit uppon front post.

No, you didn't miss it cuz' it's not there.

Indexing the sight alignment off of anything OTHER than the aiming point (i.e. top of front post) to the center of the rear aperture induces inconsistencies in the centering of the post top.

ANY inconsistency in head placement in conjunction with using the sight wings as an index of sight picture also induces inconsistency of sight centering, hence POI. Move the head a bit forward on the stock (while indexing off the wings) and the top of the post moves UP in the aperture. Move the head back on the stock (while indexing off the wings) and the top of the post moves DOWN in the aperture. A lot of high and low shots are due to this.

Center up the post top and IGNORE everything else to keep the post top coming back to the same point inside the aperture. Trust your eye and minds ability to naturally center the top of the post in the aperture. IGNORE everything else.

Best to all,
Swampy

garands forever

gezzer
December 5, 2006, 11:54 PM
Just focus on the front sight your eye will align it perfectly with much more precision than you can consciously.

FatalMove
December 6, 2006, 11:56 PM
How do you set up the ranges on an A2? Mine is set to -2 clicks under the lowest setting 8/3. With this setting i moved the front site so that it is zeroed at 50 yards. Is this correct?

Sorry for highjacking but i thought the answer might help you too.

Thanks

FatalL][V][ove

Blackfork
December 7, 2006, 12:16 AM
The 8/3 mark on the elevation wheel is the 800/300 meter zero. M855 ammunition has little enough drop that you can put the 300 meter zero on(the 3 part of 8/3) and shoot it all the way into 100 or less. 300 is the battle zero.

When you adjust the FRONT sight for a point of aim=point of impact zero, with the rear site set on 3, then moving back to 400 would use the 4, 500, the 5, et, et..all the way out to the 8 of the 8/3.

So: run the rear sight to the bottom, then come up to 3 of the 8/3. That's for 300 meters. Use the front sight to adjust the bullet strike until they group at point of aim from a 300 meter firing point. You'll hit a man sized target at 300 and all the way in to 0 yards. At 400 meters click up to the 4, at 500 meters the 5, et, et.

The front sight is worth 5 MOA or 5 inches at 100 yards per complete revolution. If you notice, there are four detents around the front sight. Moving ONE detent, therefore, moves you 1 1/4 inch at 100 yards.

At 300 yards, one detent will move you (3 X 1 1/4) or 3 3/4 MOA or inches.

This is all with the 62 grain M855. Other ammunition with other ballistic curves will zero differently.

On shooting YOUR AR, I would pick a common ammo. Set the rear sight at less than the 8/3 and zero elevation using the front sight. In highpower we use the 200 yard line. I start off up 4 clicks off the bottom and zero for elevation using the front sight, then go up for 300, 500, and 600 yards with the correct ammunition at each distance. Of course I keep records.

I have a sticker on the stock of my AR that says:

SF--------u10 / R1.(Slow fire 200 offhand. Up 10 clicks, Right one quarter minute on windage)

2R--------U8 / R1. (200 rapid fire. Up 8 clicks, Right one on windage. I hold tighter sitting)

3R--------U13 / R1 (300 rapid fire. Up 13, Right one.)

600-------U 33 / R1 (600 yard slow fire with 80 grain Sierras. Up 33, Right one)

nemoaz
December 8, 2006, 10:37 PM
>>Unless you've got a really long neck, you can't touch your nose to the charging handle in offhand and still have the A2 buttplate against your shoulder.

Hmmm. That's the way Uncle Sugar taught me and all the other riflemen in my company. Maybe we all had long necks? It seemed to work. Most of us were pretty good shots when we left "summer camp".

BTW, the charging handle doesn't move unless you didn't lock it forward.

And back to the original post, front sight all the way, but use the long range site (small aperature). But it is very very important that you not cant the weapon. My favorite drill for newbies learning how to shoot: put a quarter on the barrel then make the newbie slowly squeeze...squeeze... squeeze. You're not doing it correctly until the quarter doesn't move. Also, pay attention to your breathing. In, half out, hold, then see above (squeeze... squeeze... squeeze).

wanderinwalker
December 8, 2006, 11:04 PM
But it is very very important that you not cant the weapon.

Not necessarily! The following applies to me and MY AR-15.

My offhand position cants the rifle to the left, into my face and shoulder. At 100 yards my zero is 4 up, 1 right. Going to sitting, I cant to the right, resulting in a zero of 6 up, 3 left. Haven't got the new barrel sorted at 200 and 300 yet.

And I can easily shoot 98-100 on the sitting rapid target most of the time. Offhand I'm more reliably in the 94-range, but I have fired a few 96-98 scores, enough to prove to myself that my canted position works well. (For ME anyway! ;) )

As for shooting the peep sight, focus on the front sight. Focus HARD! Ignore the peep and just settle the blade onto the same part of the target every time. You're groups will improve with practice, but this is how to do it.

JohnKSa
December 8, 2006, 11:07 PM
Cant is ok as long as you are consistent and understand the effects that sight adjustment will have when the sights are canted.

Swampy
December 9, 2006, 07:59 AM
But it is very very important that you not cant the weapon.

This may indeed be true for combat marksmanship training, but NOT true for pure accuracy in a target punching situation.

Many top shooters have a cant to their rifle when shooting positions. I have a slight inboard cant when standing, maybe 8-10 degrees. When shooting the sitting position I cant the rifle outboard rather severely, about 35-40 degrees.

The cant when standing is used to keep a vertical head position on the stock and this helps in holding your balance.

The cant when sitting (cross legged) is the only way the position is physically possible for many folks, me included. Trying to hold the rifle straight up and down when in a crossed leg position would prevent getting a cheek weld of any kind and having my sight line about 2 inches ABOVE the rear sight. If I'm gonna use the rear sight, I've gotta' cant.

As stated previously though, the key to ANY position is consistency. Do it the exact same way every time and the bullet should go to the same POI every time (Assuming a rifle and ammo capable of that feat).

Best to all,
Swampy

Garands forever

nemoaz
December 12, 2006, 11:18 PM
>>Cant is ok as long as you are consistent and understand the effects that sight adjustment will have when the sights are canted.

Yeah, you got me. What I should have said is that you must hold the weapon consistently and cannot change the cant of the weapon willy nilly.

With an Eotech, it becomes quite clear that even a very slight change in cheekweld/noseweld, cant etc changes where the front post appears to be.

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