[Cousin Mike]

This thread is inspired by something I keep seeing recently. Maybe it was always there and I just never paid attention, but I'm really curious about this.

Are there really people out there (folks w/serious health problems, or of older age excluded) who can't handle 9mm?

I have a hard time with that one... but yet, it pops up... thread after thread, someone claims that their 9mm pistol is jumping out of their hand, or too much to handle in terms of recoil. Some of these folks are decent sized, fairly young people. Yet every once in a while, I'll catch some grandmother at the range with her husband, plowing away with a .357 Magnum and enjoying herself. This was also the case in my CCW class. The 70-something schoolteacher and myself (20-something) were the only one's who chose to do our shooting with airweight .357 snub guns. Everyone else treated them like cancer.

I recently took a friend of mine to the range. He owns a .45 that he never shoots - I was teaching him some basics. We rented an XD-9 because it has a slightly-less snappy recoil than my Beretta, and it's similar in some ways to his Glock. If you could have seen him shooting it, you would have thought I had handed him a Desert Eagle in .44 Mag or something. He couldn't hit the paper to save his life, and was so embarassed by his own shooting, I've never gotten him to go back to the range with me.

Here's the kicker. I had him shooting at 10-15 feet at full size silhouette targets. When I reminded him about sights, breathing, other fundamentals he would calm down for exactly one shot, and land a good hit... then immediately return to insane flinching, and as a result, disappointment and anger. He's a healthy, strong, 27 year old guy. Doesn't smoke, no drugs, runs 5 miles a day type guy. 9mm kicked his butt. Sort of an eye-opener.

What's the deal? I usually recommend they "toughen up," and try to be as nice about it as possible... but am I being a jerk? I know recoil is subjective. At the same time, the 9mm is not known for it's excessive kick.

I just figure that if you can't handle 9mm, then [feel free to end this sentence...]

What say you all?

[carlrodd]

i guess it all depends what you're shooting it out of. .357 out of a full-size all steel revolver certainly feels different than 9mm out of say a compact or semi-compact poly framed semi-auto. not to mention different sorts of recoil. .357 recoil is considerable, but it's coming from a gun that is typically heavy, so people usually expect the pop and jump. 9mm pistols are typically light and very ergonomic....newer shooters might be surprised to feel jump, as it is unexpected. 9mm is a fast round.

[Car Knocker]

I usually recommend they "toughen up," and try to be as nice about it as possible... but am I being a jerk?
Yes.

[gudel]

What's the deal? I usually recommend they "toughen up," and try to be as nice about it as possible... but am I being a jerk?

if the person you're telling to is a guy, no you aren't being a jerk. you men should man up, grow them pairs.

[DogBonz]

Do you know my friend Seth?
I had him shooting at 10-15 feet at full size silhouette targets. When I reminded him about sights, breathing, other fundamentals he would calm down for exactly one shot, and land a good hit... then immediately return to insane flinching, and as a result, disappointment and anger.

Seriously, I took him to the range one time be cause he likes guns… never fired one, but likes them. So there we are, after the safety lecture I put my Beretta 92 in his hand and give him a mag with just one round in it. He loads the mag drops the slide and at 20 or so feet scores a perfect bulls eye. So, I load up a full mag and he blasts away, brings the target back, and there is only 1 hole in it… the first one. All of the other rounds completely missed a big A$$ target…
The next mag, after some lengthy instruction I noticed that a round or two was skipping off of the concrete floor! I packed my guns up and left.

[Cousin Mike]

Hey DogBonz: I don't think I know your friend, but that's sort of an amusing story, in a slightly scary way.

Car Knocker: Thanks for the honest criticism, but expand, please. If someone owns a .45, but they cant keep from flinching shooting a 9mm, what exactly should I say? BTW, my "toughen up," is usually more like:

"Well in my opinion, 9mm is as light as it gets in the common defensive calibers... You might just want to practice with this for a while, until you get used to shooting it."

Or something of that nature... I still think it's just a nice way of saying "If you want something big, then you have to get over it." Why is that the wrong approach? There's nothing wrong with .380 if that's someone's preference... but .380 isn't all that much lighter than 9mm, especially out of a pocket sized pistol.

gudel: I'd never use that approach with women or new shooters... This is only for the young, healthy guys that act like wimps when they shoot anything bigger than a .22lr - but still feel the need to buy a .40, or .45, yet cant hit the broad side of a barn with a 9mm. Healthy, young guys who say 9mm is too much gun for them...

Maybe I'm a jerkface - but I just honestly don't get it.

[strat81]

I hate to say it, but I blame TV and the movies. Pick whatever show/movie you want and they all make it look downright easy to fire a gun and take out BGs. I mean really, does Jack Bauer ever miss?

Given relatively identical guns, a 9mm should kick less than a 45. But, too many people go from big 45s to small 9s and are surprised when they kick. Of course, it's like going from a steel 357 K frame to an airlight 38. A Beretta 92 will feel much different than a Glock 26. People expect nothing but jeez, you're shooting a firearm. Not a paintball marker, not a BB gun, not an Airsoft pistol. A FIREARM. FIRE. BOOM BOOM. EXPLOSIONS. All that jazz.

My first time at the range alone, with my brand new 9mm, my muzzle was all over the place. Some of the nicer folks reminded me that I need to consciously control my weapon to avoid insane muzzle flip. Bad technique surely plays a role in poor accuracy too. In the movies, the fire off-hand while jumping out of the car while on fire and still manage to take out three BGs. Weaver stance? Isos stance? Then there's the issue of sights. Where does the front sight go in relation to the rear? How do those relate to the target.

Would you hand someone a baseball bat and put the in the "fast" cage at the batting range if they've never swung a bat before? Yes, they do need to butch up. It's not about being a tough guy, it's about learning a skill.

Just this n00b's .02

[Walkalong]

9mm kicked his butt

They are out there. We just take shooting a little old 9 for granted. Some folks just can't take recoil! :eek:

[LeadPumper]

Being an NRA instructor has been an eye-opener in many ways. The misconceptions, inaccuracies, and outright lies out there about the capabilities and performance of all types of firearms and ammunition is both laughable and scary.

I have indeed had students that could not physically handle the recoil of a 9mm (WWB in a G17). One such person had arthritis and had a hard time with the slide as well as the hard plastic grip (a revolver sporting a set of Pachmyrs worked out well though), another had an emotional response to the gun itself going off. Not that she was an anti, she just wanted to sit down and cry after the violence of the first shot (had to get her to step back off the line to catch her breath).

These are not typical, but they do exist. In some cases, toughening up is the answer (both physical and emotional), in other cases a hardware adjustment might be required.

As always, YMMV.

-LeadPumper

[pax]

I just figure that if you can't handle 9mm, then ...

... then you should practice with something that you can handle, until your muscles, nerves, and emotions have become inured to the sensations of firing a pistol.

And further: any time you start yanking the trigger and jerking your shots low, you should either move to a smaller caliber, or do lots of dry fire, or both, until your nerves are once again within your conscious control.

LeadPumper ~ it's unusual, but not that unusual, to encounter a newby who bursts into tears upon firing for the first time. It's usually a simple adrenalin response, nothing more, and tends to go away quicker if you let them know it's a normal response. Guys do it too, but don't usually cloud up quite so visibly as girls do (cultural training, I think) -- guys who have the same basic physiological response tend to flush, get shaky hands, and start dropping things.

pax

[Cousin Mike]

Good point, pax... No surprise there, of course, but here's my dilemma.

The only thing I have smaller than a 9mm or .38 Special is my Ruger Mk II, which is nothing like shooting a defensive gun, and the ranges I go to don't rent anything smaller than 9mm/.38 Special that I'm aware of, except for .22's.

The easiest thing I have to shoot (other than the Mark II) is a ported .357 Magnum that weighs about 45 oz. unloaded... .38 Specials are really soft in that, but due to the size and porting a lot of my not-so-gun-savvy friends find it intimidating, and won't even try to shoot it, .38 specials or no.

I don't want to buy a .380, .32, or .25 just for the rare occasion that I end up taking a recoil-shy person to the range. Do you think the .22 is enough?

[kmrcstintn]

the guy you were teaching...might not be a 'recoil flinch' problem...might be an infamiliarity with handguns...he could have been 'hypersensitive' and increased his psychosomatic reactions...please don't jump to such conclusions

I can tell you from experience that sometimes it seems like my guns kick my butt...if I'm tired, if I'm rushing through the shooting session, if I've had more caffeine than usual, and especially when I transition from outdoor (during warm and good weather) to indoor ranges (during cold and bad weather)where the audible report is increased :what:

also remember, he doesn't SHOOT his gun and may not be conditioned to expect the muzzle flash, audible report and the recoil associated with handgun shooting of any sort;

there is also the possibility that he grew up with people who disliked and abhord handguns and this may have rubbed off; this is what happened to me when I first started...I had NO NEED for them and DIDN'T want them until someone threatened me with a shotgun (the girl I was chatting with and becoming close to didn't mention that she was still involved with someone else)...from there it grew from needing to learn to use a 'tool' to finding fun and enjoyment with recreational shooting...

[Frandy]

Do you think the .22 is enough?


Of course it is. The goal is to have the shooter become familiar and comfortable with shooting. If someone shoots .22 first and becomes easy with it, they then understand what a bit of recoil is. If they watch others shoot larger calibers, they should be able to understand how the recoil is relatively more than what they are experiencing. They need a baseline and the .22 can do it for them.

[Car Knocker]

OK, Cuz, I'll give it a shot. By the way, thanks for clarifying the "toughen up" comment. In its original form, it really isn't very constructive.

I think it's imperative to determine why the recoil isn't tolerable:

-Does the person have a physical problem that must be dealt with? Example: Arthritis, injury, carpal tunnel, etc. My wife fell and shattered her wrist a few years ago and holding a handgun for any length of time, let alone shooting it, is really painful for her

-What are the person's shooting experiences? Did some idiot start a newbie off with a .454 Casull (it happens) and there are residual effects that need to be resolved? Is there something in the person's background that has induced a fear of guns?

-Does the handgun fit the person or is he/she just barely hanging on to it and has no real control, finger barely reaches the trigger, etc. Does the person have a proper grip on the handgun?

-Training? Did the person start off with a low-recoil caliber or air pistol and work up from there? Was there any training at all? Does the person have a familiarity with handguns and is comfortable with them?

-Does the person really want to learn to shoot well, or even adequately? Or is he/she doing this because someone else wants them to, or because they feel they should learn for some reason (it's a "manly" thing to do)?

These are just example of questions that should be asked, and answered, before anyone can even hope to resolve the issue. You have to know the "why" before you can work on the "how".

[ndh87]

I usually recommend they "toughen up," and try to be as nice about it as possible... but am I being a jerk?

no, i've seen 100 lb girls that could handle a 9mm no problem

[Zrex]

Don't discount the "noise" factor. Some people are just down right noise sensitive and that increases the flinch factor and increases perceived recoil.

Suppressed pistols make for a much friendler and hearing safe introduction to shooting.

[Okiecruffler]

There is a strange "snap" to the 9mm. I've never noticed it, but the wife assures me that it's there. She won't shoot a 9. She carries a 357 snubby that she'll shoot until the sun sets, she loves my 45 and got mad when I turned my 44 contender into a 444. To be fair, she won't shoot that one either.

[Cousin Mike]

I admit, the 9mm is snappy... I think it's snappy enough that I prefer 9mm probably the least of any caliber I've fired. I really don't care for it, but I'll always have at least one 9mm pistol of my own, and my g/f loves them. It's snappy, but it's still soft. I just don't prefer "snap," personally, unless I get a huge bang and flash out of it. That's why I like .357 Sig so much, even though it's about 2x as snappy as the hottest 9mm.

At least I'm getting a big fireball and 1500 fps out of the deal. :p

But to say someone young and fit can't handle it... Well, I guess I just call BS. The same way I'd call BS if a young healthy person said they couldn't rack the slide of a semi-auto. Errors in technique might make it difficult, but I guess it's the words ~can't handle~ that bug me.

Car Knocker, you make some good points. I'll come back and answer your post in a little more detail later... Right now, I've got some food that needs cookin'. :D Thanks again for the reply.

[Correia]

Zrex brings up a great point. Oftentimes it isn't the recoil, it is the noise. Have them use plugs and muffs. Some people are more sensitive to blast than others.

When teaching, I usually bring along a S&W 1917 with some really feeble (200 gr. semi-wadcutters at 800 fps) loads. Out of the 1917 they feel like nothing. If I have somebody who's getting all sorts of jittery, I'll have them shoot that single action for a bit.

Plus some students feel slighted when you try to step them down to a .22. It is easier to say, "here, I think this .45 will fit you better". Once they shoot it, and it is soft, and relatively quiet, then they feel more confident, because heck, it is a .45. :p

Also I've found that some students who talk about the snappyness of an auto, but then shoot a .357 fine, is not because of the recoil, but rather they have a psychological problem with the slide moving back and forth. I've found that some people are just plain intimidated by that big thing flying back and forth infront of their face.

Another problem is grip. The vast majority of the public doesn't know how to grip a handgun. 90% of gun owners don't know how to grip a handgun. Your friend may be grasping the gun too low, and thereby increasing the felt snappyness, or too loosly so the gun has room to shift.

[Ala Dan]

This is just my opinion, but the 9m/m recoil and subsquent muzzle blast is
among the best handling wise of any centerfire caliber. Even my 30 year old
daughter loves shooting my West German SIG-SAUER P228~!;) :D

[Jim Watson]

I have seen ladies and youngsters do better with a .45 than 9mm because of the hard supersonic Crack! of the smallbore. Better ear protection helps. Subsonic 9mm helps a lot.

But the .22 is the best to start with, underutilized these days. People have gotten to where they are looking for the visceral thrill of the bang and kick and don't pay enough attention to learning how to hit the target.

[Bullet Bob]

Preach it, Brother Jim. .22's are our friend, and for new shooters, they are their best friend.

[ezypikns]

I think the weight of the weapon may be one of the most important when introducing someone to a center fire hand gun. If I were starting somone off with a 9mm in a semi auto, I believe I'd start with a steel pistol. The Glock or XD's are outstanding weapons, but even in 9mm the felt recoil might be too much for some.

I have a bunch of grandsons coming up and I intend to start them with either my Single Six or my S&W Model 18. Both revolvers in .22 caliber. That might be the place to start some of these recoil sensitive folks, no matter what their age.

[azredhawk44]

Another problem is grip. The vast majority of the public doesn't know how to grip a handgun. 90% of gun owners don't know how to grip a handgun. Your friend may be grasping the gun too low, and thereby increasing the felt snappyness, or too loosly so the gun has room to shift.


100% spot-on.

I was teaching my girlfriend to shoot with a Springfield XD9. Lightweight polymer gun. She was hitting paper all the time, but was all over the place low.

I started really watching her hands closely, and her right pinky and ring finger would release their grip on the gun as her trigger finger tightened. There was also a bit of a limp wrist. The gun would "flop" downwards as a result, and the hit would be low and wobble from left to right due to the random grip pressure.

I had her hold it like she was shaking a hand, and her groups immediately tightened up. She said later on the gun was intimidating, but that after she noticed the grip issue it became much easier.

Now she's a regular Annie Oakley.

[Candiru]

9mm isn't a wimpy round. There's a reason it's often cited as one of
the acceptable self-defense calibers, and that's because it's quite
powerful (for a handgun round).

My admittedly limited experience suggests that people tend to be either
snap- or shove-sensitive. Snap sensitivity seems to appear more often
in beginning shooters, but some people never warm up to snappy guns. My
theory is that nobody ever expects guns to be so loud and violent; blame
decades of watching blank-shooting actors on the silver screen or the
body's instinctive limbic response to holding an explosion at arms'
length, but it's almost always a lot more than the beginner behind the
trigger bargained for. When a beginner touches off a 9mm, there's a
loud, sharp bang and the gun whips back in their hands--and it all
happens before they can react to it, so the entire experience is
entirely beyond his or her control. As a result, it feels like it
happens to them, not because of them. A more experienced
shooter knows to just ride out the recoil and focus on reacquiring the
sights, but the beginner only knows that as soon as he pulled the
trigger one millimeter too far, he lost control of the gun in a most
startling fashion.

This, I think, is why .45 ACP and other slow but heavy bullets sometimes
seem friendlier to someone just starting out. There's a lot more shove
to the recoil, but it's spread out over a longer time, so the person
doing the shooting can start recovering from the recoil while it's still
happening. This does a lot to improve one's feeling of control, as does
the shooter's ability to hang on to the gun.

Finally, I think starting people out on polymer-framed guns is less than
ideal. I've yet to find a plastic pistol that is even as pleasant to
shoot as its steel equivalent.

[orionengnr]

If you spend any time at all shooting 357s out of an AirWeight or AirLite...you da man. I owned four of them, sold them all. I'm not really recoil-sensitive, but I'm not 20-something anymore, either...

Next, I had my buddy's GF at the range Friday. She was very reluctant to even step up to the firing line. I had brought two 22s (S&W revolver and Ruger MkII) and after she watched me for a while, I finally talked her into giving it a try.

I moved the target in to 9', showed her that the revolver was empty, showed her how to get a good two-hand grip, had her point it at the target. I cocked it, told her to get a good sight picture, and squeeze the trigger. Snap. She looked at me and smiled. We did it again. I asked her if she wanted to try one round, she did.

I put one in the cylinder, had her get her grip, I cocked it, she got her sight picture, and...bang. Hit the paper, within the black. Just barely, but it brought another smile. Did the same thing a few more times, and her aim was improving.

She was complaining about the weight, though, so we took a break and then started again, repeating the drill with the MkII. Empty, then one round, then three. Then six. Finally ten. She was putting a lot of holes in the black with the Ruger and liked it a lot better than the revolver.

Put up a fresh target and let her run through a few more mags. Big smiles and some take-home targets. :)

We quit shortly thereafter; I wanted to end it on a high note.

My money is that she will be asking hubby to take her to the range again soon...and I have an idea what she wants for Christmas :)

My point is, never overestimate a new shooter, and never allow the experience to become uncomfortable/unpleasant.

Hell, I've been shooting a while, and with the price of ammo these days, I figure those 22s are going to pay for themselves pretty quick...

One hundred rounds of .22 followed by 25-50 rounds of .38/.357/.45 costs 1/3 to 1/2 of what it would (and did) cost me to shoot centerfire only.

The added bonus is, shooting .22 is making me a better shooter :)

[Cousin Mike]

Does the person have a physical problem that must be dealt with? Example: Arthritis, injury, carpal tunnel, etc.

Nope.. in fact, we're both boxers, so his hands are quite strong and in good condition. He's in excellent physical shape - the kid looks like a Greek statue. I wish I had his shape, that's for sure.

What are the person's shooting experiences? Did some idiot start a newbie off with a .454 Casull (it happens) and there are residual effects that need to be resolved?

New Years, 2000.. He'd just bought his Glock 21 a week earlier, and decided to shoot it for the first time. He fired into the air, and a look came over his face I'd never seen before. At this time, I'd never owned or shot a .45, so I just assumed the power shocked him a little bit.

Fast forward almost 6 years. He's never shot that Glock again. I have no idea why he bought it, except maybe he just wanted to be a tough guy. :cool: He has no ammunition for it, he's never cleaned it... I cleaned it for him before we went to the range that day - his first time ever going to a range. He still refused to take it. Maybe he scared himself or something all those years ago.

Does the handgun fit the person or is he/she just barely hanging on to it and has no real control, finger barely reaches the trigger, etc. Does the person have a proper grip on the handgun?

He chose the XD because it was the most similar to a Glock. They had a G17 and G19 he could have rented, but for whatever reason he went with the XD.

I noticed he was doing the Hollywood grip - you know, the one where the person cups the bottom of the grip/mag in their hand? I corrected him as often as possible (and as nice as possible), and he would do a little better for a short time, then go right back to the Hollywood grip.

It wasn't the fact that he flinched, it was the amount of flinching that I found intriguing. I expected some flinching, just not as severe as it was. Afterwards he just opined about how hard it was to shoot a pistol, and that he never expected it to be that difficult.

"I told you, you d***. What, did you think I spend every weekend at the range just to get my guns dirty?" :D I'll explain why I said that to him later.

Training? Did the person start off with a low-recoil caliber or air pistol and work up from there? Was there any training at all? Does the person have a familiarity with handguns and is comfortable with them?

He pretended to, and I think that's what all the embarrasment was about.

This kid and I grew up together. He's always been somewhat of a tough guy. He was the first one of us who could legally buy a gun, and did so as soon as he turned 21. I spoke earlier about his first time and only time shooting it.

Fast forward to last year. I've been shooting regularly for a couple of years now. I get my CCW and join THR. I increase my reading, training, and shooting. I'm becoming the "go to" guy for advice, for all my friends who like guns. Me and this friend start school together.

Guns are the talk of choice at lunchtime and cigarette breaks among the guys at school. He and another guy (who was a felon and can't own guns) act annoyed whenever the topic comes up. I notice this, and ask him to come to a range with me.

"I don't have time for that s#*@."

He starts hanging out with said felon on the weekends. I go to the range w/my girlfriend, like always. I ask a few more times, and always get that same harsh BS response. "I don't have time for that s#%!"

So I stop asking.

One day he asks why I don't hang out with him and Mr. Felon - I reply I'm too busy practicing something useful to go out of town and get drunk every weekend with some criminal who thinks he's a tough guy. He asks why I never ask him to go to the range anymore. I reply that I'm tired of being treated like a jerk for offering to pay to teach someone something they should want to know anyway, since they're a gunowner and all. That seemed to provoke thought.

I extend one more invitation, and inform him that if he acts like a jerk about it, I'll never ask again. He takes me up on it this time. We go over safety, how to run the different types of guns I own, all seems fine and good. We get to the range, and he doesn't do so hot.

Well, what a surprise! Turns out you can't just throw a gun under your mattress for 6 years, then pick it up and shoot 4-leaf clovers. During our little bouts over going to the range, he'd day things like "I don't need to practice to shoot someone in my house." And he was always a jerk about it, like he resented someone telling him that simply owning a gun is not enough, and that he needs to practice.

On a few occasions when heading out to town to see Mr. Felon, he'd take his loaded gun, and transport it completely illegally. Basically, he was carrying without a license. When I told him he should look into getting his CCW so he wouldn't get in trouble, he'd do the same thing - turn into a jerk and start an argument about what he didn't need to do. It was like he was doing it intentionally, just to piss me off, and act like I was some kind of gun-nut psycho for wanting a CCW (I never told him I got my carry permit, for obvious reasons).

Frankly, I'd had enough of his crap and wanted to teach him a somewhat humbling lesson. When we got to the range, the first thing I did was hand him a mag, and some ammo, and set the target out to 15 feet.

"So what do I do?" He asks...

"Nah homie, you're the one who told me he could hit someone without any training... You show ME what to do... This guy's in your house. Show me you can really back up all that s#@% you talked at school and hit the target."

I smile a sarcastic smile, and let him shoot his 15 rounds. We pull the paper back on a full-sized silhouette target, and there isn't a single mark on it. He looks baffled, like he can't believe that happened. I manage to hide it, but there's this insatiable satisfaction... I've knocked him off his high horse, and proved my point... THIS ISN'T HOLLYWOOD, AND SHOOTING A GUN AIN'T EASY. To drive the point home, I put his target back out, and inserted another mag. I dumped all 15 rounds right into the chest of the target, one hand rapid fire. I bring the target back, and he looks like he's seen a ghost.

"Practice, my friend... That's what I've been telling you. The only difference between the way you shoot and the way I shoot is practice." Hence, my response to his stupid statement on the way home. I figured it was high time that the cynicism come from me, for once.

As soon as I proved my point, I apologized - and told him that I didn't mean to bust his bubble, so to speak - but that he had to learn that lesson for himself because he just wouldn't listen before. He admitted that it was scary knowing that this whole time he had that gun, he was still completely incapable of defending himself. We had somewhat of a heart-to-heart about the way he'd acted at school. All seemed good. We finished out the day, and at the end, he was actually putting all of his rounds into the target. The range session ended when I let him shoot my .357Sig - which he asked to do, but apparently the recoil overwhelmed him, and we'd probably shot a good 500 rounds of 9mm before I let him shoot the Sig. His confidence was up, and he told me it was the most fun he'd ever had.

Next week, when I called to see if he wanted to go again...

"I ain't got time for that s#!%."

I'm sure you can tell we don't hang out anymore. :rolleyes:

That was the last time I called him. This trip to the range, and his attitude are what inspired the thread, basically. Ironically, tough guy is the only one who had problems with the 9mm. All the other new shooters I've taught personally were not tough guys (or girls), but yet they all did so much better shooting all of my guns, not just the 9mm... so maybe it's a tough guy thing in some sense.

I just found it funny that the cockiest person I ever met happens to be the one with the least tolerance for recoil. But then recently here on THR, I've noticed some of our members saying the same thing. So here I am, asking what you folks think of this phenomena - and I'm glad all of you have taken time to answer. Thanks again. I'll shut up now since I seem to have written a books worth of information about my half-ass anti friend and our trip to the range.

Thoughts on how I handled that experience are welcome as well... I realize that letting him prove my point with his poor shooting might not have helped, but I felt it was necessary given his attitude. FWIW, I'd never do something like that to a new shooter who simply wanted to learn, but sometimes you just have to punch folks in the face with their own ignorance. Maybe I shouldn't have done that.

[cirrus]

i have to chime in here cuz b/c i think i partially inspired this thread. as stated in the other forum, i am a novice shooter. i just picked up my 1st HG (an XD 9) about 2-3 weeks ago. prior to that i had about 1-2 hours of shooting experience. for the record, i am 36 and in good physical health (train with weghts for fitness and various other things). anyway, i think a lot of what Candiru stated makes sense concerning the comments of being "snap or shove" sensitive. the first HG i shot was a beretta cougar 45. i remeber thinking that it was cool as hell. other than the newness at what i was doing and wondering what i could do wrong, it felt very comfortable and i felt very relaxed. i, of course noticed the recoil (a push with a mild flip) but it wasn't unnerving. i then fired a beretta 9 mm (i don't know the model) and it didn't really feel a lot different but i remember i still felt more comfortable with the 45. at that time i didn't really understand why until i shot them both again recently. the 45 pushed and the 9 snapped, not as violently as my XD but definitely snapped. after having shot a couple of other 40's and 45's i realized that the push recoil doesn't bother me. it feels as if i can control it with little rebound or adjustment. my 9 on, otoh, feels squirrely as hell. i sometimes feel like i can't control it. it just cracks and feels like i am shaking uncontrollably rather than absorbing the blast. (i will ask the board member to comment in this thread who shot it recently to see what his impression was).

anyway, it just doesn't feel comfortable. i am going to try some different ammo and see if that makes a difference and some grip positions before i decide to buy something else. in the meantime, however, i am not too thrilled about returning to the range with it. i'll just have to work with it for a bit and hope that it works out. :banghead: :D

[DC3-CVN-72]

One thing that I have noticed after shooting 9mm. guns, the same 115 grain shot from any other semi-auto besides my HI-POWER feels the same. Out the HI-POWER it is noticebley louder and has more kick. Not uncontrolable at all, is there a reason for this? I also have a Ruger Black Hawk .357 MAG- 9mm. When I shoot the same 115 grain 9mm. from the revolver, it feels like a loud .22 LR.

[orionengnr]

Mike--

Having heard the full story, your patience far outweighs mine. It is one thing to have a problem and want to solve it, or not know how to solve it but be willing to listen.

Your "friend" displays none of those traits. Arrogance without the skill to back it up is really only bravado, and will not serve him well.

Anyone whose shooting experience starts with firing into the sky at night is on the wrong track.

You tried, but even DaVinci couldn't turn a turd into gold (or even lead, for that matter...)

Think he needs to have a talk with Chuck Norris :)

[Cousin Mike]

Hey cirrus!

Your thread was probably "the last straw," so to speak. Very partial inspiration, but you told us in the beginning you were a new shooter, so to me it makes more sense that you would be just learning what you like and don't like :)

You're right, Candiru makes an excellent point, one that I'd never really considered before. So did Correia about noise sensitivity rather than recoil sensitivity. You just seem to be one of those rare guys like me who likes the bigger stuff right off the bat. :) Nothing wrong with that! it still baffles me that you like the .40, and not the 9mm, but I can already say I like your style, sir! :D I hope you aren't taking any of this personally. I didn't start this post to bash anyone, I just really wanted some insight from other folks. Thank you for your post as well, it's really informative. I was hoping to hear from someone who had this problem personally.

I am curious about your XD... I wish you lived in Ohio so I could shoot it myself, I'm starting to think maybe yours just kicks harder than the average... FWIW, I have a 1911 like that. Every other 1911 or .45 I've shot is very easy to shoot, and very manageable in the recoil dept. My 1911, however, feels like it's ripping my hand off with every shot. I have no idea why. I shot another 1911 of the exact same make and model side by side when I first got it, and the difference was night and day. The other one was smooth and soft, mine ripped my hand off with every shot. Go figure.

I do hope that you learn to like your XD, if for nothing else because I think they're nice guns. But, should you choose to go with another caliber, the XD makes an awesome .45! :p

orionengnr: Thanks for the input :D Plenty of times over the course of this school year I wanted to punch him, but I figured he was my friend, and I should try to bring him to our side of the fence... I soon realized that this kid I hung out with for 14 years wasn't really my friend. Just a jerk with an attitude who likes to hang out with lowlife's and play tough-guy.

I wonder if I could get Chuck to have a talk with him, Texas Ranger style. :D

[RecoilRob]

One thing I have noticed is the recoil problems seem to be intensified in a novice shooter when using a semi.

I am old school and bought a .357 Ruger Security Six as my first handgun. Practiced fast double action dry firing with both hands until I could snap 100 times without much slowing down. Great for training the muscles, and THEN started DA dry snapping without moving the sights.

Once I could do those things well, I started shooting and haven't looked back. Almost never shoot any DA pistol any way other than trigger cocking.

Novices with SA autos haven't the muscle tone or memory to squeeze the trigger without a tendency to flinch....which translates into lots of problems hitting.

I always recommend a 4-6".357 as a 'first gun' but am normally rebuffed as they are out of fashion. Still think most folks would be ahead of the game learning the DA revolver before progressing to the SA auto.

[grimjaw]

The first handgun I ever fired was a .22LR double action revolver, a very old High Standard Sentinel with a 6" barrel. I hated it then, because it was extremely loud (hello! no ear protection!). It was the noise that put me off more than anything else.

That was the only handgun I fired until I went to a range and rented a Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum. With plenty of hearing protection this time, I LOVED IT. I rented a Glock 17 later, and didn't like it at all. It's a different recoil impulse (up and back for revolver compared to up and back and forward again for the semi). It took me a couple of months with a Makarov (which really doesn't kick any more than a G17) before I learned what to expect from a semi-auto pistol. I still prefer 9x19 even though I can shoot larger caliber weapons and enjoy them.

The whole "shoot 9x19 if you can't shoot a manly caliber" would bother me if I let it. I don't.

jm

[cirrus]

hey mike,


no damage done at all. i'm pretty thick skinned. i am finding this as interesting as you. i'm glad to find out that i'mnot such a wus and there are others like me. :D

i once lived a few miles form ohio but that will never be the case again. ;)

believe me, i'm already looking at 40's, 45's a revolver, a shotgun etc, etc, etc... :evil:

[Monkeybear]

Two points

1- I bet its the noise, rather than the recoil. Im sure someone has mentioned this but double up on the hearing protection.

2- I dont have a huge amount of expierence but from what I do have women tend to learn how to shoot faster than guys do. The few women I have "shown the ropes" had learning to shoot be their goal and thus asked questions and tried their best. The few men I have tried to instruct either flat out dont want to be told what to do or if you do tell them will continue to do it "thier way", which is fine and all but at the end of the day they shot just as bad because they hadnt changed anything. Bottom line if its a male friend make sure hes actually doing what you are telling him to do and not just nodding along and trying to make "his way" work.


Edit:sorry only read the first half of page one. Most of this is written in ignorance, read the rest just now. What a dofus.

[evan price]

The only thing I can contribute to this is, if you are worried that starting someone on .22lr would be "too wimpy" then buy a box of CCI Stingers or some other high velocity .22LR and shoot them after breaking them in with cheap low power .22lr's. More pop, more snap, but still not near a 9mm would be.

[ozwyn]

Well...

I own a steel frame 9mm (cz 75b) a aluminum frame 9mm (beretta 9sfs) and have owned a polymer framed 9mm (usp which i alas sold due to economic issues)

All 3 had very different characteristics in terms of feedback while shooting. I find that the polymer frame is good for weight, but if they don't like the "feel" the steel frame tends to give the shooter more comfortable feedback.

It's not just the caliber, but the frame material and engineering. The USP had a 2nd recoil buffer spring, which helped a lot. The beretta actually has the worst feedback of the 3. (and that still isn't bad imo, i like(d) all 3 guns)

also a big +1 to emphasis on practice.

[LeadPumper]

Some people (mostly the macho guy types) just can't be bothered with the lowly .22. I guess it just seems so, un-manly. Of course these are the same fellows who demand a 'forty' for their first shots and won't settle for less.

Even after classroom training (and showing they can do it right in the classroom), sometimes they still revert to the cup and saucer or homy style. It can get frustrating.

I typically use an advantage arms .22 kit with the Glock 17, or a Kimber .22 kit on a Custom Classic for the initial semi training, and a S&W 617 4" 10 shot for the revolver. Each is the same size, shape, weight and operation (with the exception of the lack of slide lock on the Kimber) of the full-power version. If I have a student that wants to learn, I can have them shooting full power loads on their own in about 15 minutes. If they insist on showing me how much they already know, it usually takes longer.

It's the ones that want to learn that keep me coming back.

-LeadPumper

[FieroCDSP]

This is getting into the reloading threads a bit, but the type of characteristics of the ammunition has a lot to do with it. It's not just the bore size, but also the projectile and powder. I've fired 22, 9mm, and 40S&W, and 44mag, and the 40 has the most muzzle flip. The 44mag was in a Ruger Redhawk, so the weight was on my side (in fact, that short bit of fun got the bug in me). There was a lot of recoil, bot not muzzle-flip per se. The 9 I fired after practicing on a 40, so I had a lot of control, and it didn't feel at all uncontrollable.
Now, I usually fire 180gr CCI's from my 40, but I've tried a few different factory loads. They all feel mostly the same because they're all 180gr and have the fastest powder the factory can put in them accurately.
I rececently fired off a bunch of hand-loaded 135gr with a relatively slow powder. It felt like the 9mm and the muzzle-flip was almost gone.

Total point here is that a reduction in the projectile weight and powder characteristics can almost completely change the feel of the gun. If you have a snappy 9mm (like that Hi-Point), find yourself a lighter load and try that. Maybe it will help. Maybe not. It's just my thoughts.

[CornCod]

My suggestion for new people that find 9mm recoil too alarming is for them to take a hundred rounds and just send them downrange without aiming, breath control, trigger squeeze and all that stuff. Just have them blast away. Let them just worry about getting used to the recoil and forget about all other considerations. Whenever I teach a newbie, I always let them just blast away their first magazine in this manner just to get used to the boom and recoil.

[JohnBT]

I like shooting .45's and .357's and even LSWCHP's out of a 442 more than 9mm. Oh well, I guess I'm just really big and slow.

John

[MMMike]

"I hate to say it, but I blame TV and the movies. Pick whatever show/movie you want and they all make it look downright easy to fire a gun and take out BGs. I mean really, does Jack Bauer ever miss?"

Maybe these guys grew up watching the A-Team. Tens of thousands of rounds and nobody ever got hit!

[joab]

Are there really people out there (folks w/serious health problems, or of older age excluded) who can't handle 9mm?


I'm one of those people

I'm only 44 but have done so much damage to my hands and wrists that I cannot handle the impact of a 9mm or even a .38 for any extended period.

They impact the small bones in my wrist and shooting as few as fifty rounds of .38 will leave my wrist swollen for at least a day.

It took a long time to get over the resulting flinch.

But I can shoot a 1911 all day and frequently have with absolutely no ill effects or pain

[Caimlas]

Seems entirely possible, even probable.

Personally, I've got a bit of arthritis. It only bothers me when I'm really tired and/or it's cold outside. 9mm jars my hands something aweful in such a situation; .45ACP doesn't do so as much - it's a more gradual recoil as opposed to sharp. So, for someone with perpetual arthritis or some other chronic pain, I can most certainly see how 9mm would be more uncomfortable than something else.

I still carry 9mm, though - partially because when it's not cold, I don't have the problem, the size/capacity, and because it doesn't bother me <i>all that much</i> - just afterwards, when my hands get chilled.

[Boats]

I am not a fan of polymer pistols in general, but especially for introducing novices to handguns.

My own experiences with various 9mm polymer framed handguns has been that they tend to exaggerate the *snap* recoil impulse of the 9mm. That, and the loss of weight in the grip, leading to the feeling that the center of gravity of the pistol is changing from the first shot to the last, is noticeably annoying. Plastic nines feel as if they are trying to squirm under my grip.

I can readily imagine that what annoys me about plastic nines could be downright unnerving for someone with far less firing experience.

[dmallind]

This is not a new point but I'm in the camp of the recoil being different rather than excessive. I shoot both 9mm and .45 regularly, and plenty of other calibers sproadically when a group gets together.

I much prefer the type of recoil from a .45 - it pushes more than snaps. It's not a question of taking it - I go about 280 - but a question of it being a more comfortable feel and I get faster and better followups. I noticed the same thing with my nephew - a 6'3 240lb tight end novice shooter. He shot much better with a G30 than a G19 - he was spraying quite badly on the latter during strings, but was pretty deadly with the .45. I let him try my little PM9 with +P Gold Dots in it - the little thing was almost lost in his huge shovel hands but it snapped up like all get out every time he fired - just wasn't used to the feeling of muzzle flip. It takes some people longer to get used to than others, and counterintuitively a bigger caliber may help.

[AnthonyRSS]

Once again-

Its not usually the recoil impulse, its the noise and concussion. Have you ever stood beside somebody while they shoot and blink everytime the gun goes off? Thats a flinch. Thats why people can't shoot handguns well. Double up on plugs/muffs.


Anthony

[P5 Guy]

My wife hates shooting pistols, but loves to shoot revolvers. She says that the slide coming back at her face makes her flinch. This may be the problem in this case?

[ArchAngelCD]

If you could have seen him shooting it, you would have thought I had handed him a Desert Eagle in .44 Mag or something.
Cousin Mike,
I read most of this thread and noticed nobody answered that comment so I will. I have shot the Desert Eagle in .44 Mag and was totally surprised when I squeezed of the first round I thought I was shooting a .22 short!! I quickly realized that the Desert Eagle was SO HEAVY that there was little to no perceived recoil. I soon after shot the .50 cal Desert Eagle with the same results.

Now for 9mm, I just do not like that round. I have shot a .44 Mag out of a 2.5" barrel and over 1000 rounds of .357 Mag out of my S&W 619 and prefer both to any 9mm. I bought my 19 year old son a Taurus Millennium Pro in 9mm and he loves shooting it, I just do not like a 9mm.

cirrus,
You and the others are correct, the 9mm is different than other rounds.

Short story, my middle son was in the Navy. He qualified with a 5" .45 Cal, the M16, several other weapons including 25mm MK 38 Machine Gun (on deck) the .50 cal. machine gun. (on deck) The point of this story.... When he came over on Thanksgiving and shot his brothers 3" 9mm he had a very hard time hitting the paper even though he scored 100% with the .45 cal when qualifying. He said it was totally different than a 5" .45 cal. Don't get me wrong, after about 40 rounds or so he was hitting much better but that's what happened. Several weeks prior to this he shot a 4" .40 cal and had no problems at all with it.

[JohnKSa]

First of all, let me say that your friend has problems that go beyond recoil intolerance. He has one of the worst cases of "magic gun" syndrome that I've ever heard of. (The magic gun will take care of me just by virtue of my owning it.) You popped his bubble--I doubt he'll let that happen again.

But as far as recoil tolerance, there's a wide variety of folks out there. My wife won't shoot several of my 9mms because she says they hurt her. She owns a couple of her own that either fit her better or recoil a bit less than the ones that she says hurt.

Gun fit can make a huge difference too. Another woman I helped shoots a Ladysmith .38 that I absolutely hate. That thing is not at all comfortable for me to shoot, but she loves it. I let her shoot a Beretta 92 and she only shot one shot. The grip was wrong for her and it broke a blood vessel over her thumb knuckle. Swelled up very impressively so it wasn't like she was just complaining.

I tend to be pretty tolerant of folks who complain about a gun hurting them because I've seen some pretty strange situations.

[darkknight]

my dad had an intresting way to teach me. he started me off with his .45 winchester sxt's some were 230 grain some were 185 +P. I was nervous not gonna lie that it was my first time shooting and i did okay hit paper but nothing impressive. then he had me shot hollow point .357 magnum rounds. those were a bit more powerful and a learning expirence to say the least. then he let me shoot his 380 with hollowpoints have to admit i loved that gun at first. but when i went shooting a second time with my older cousin and his friend and they were shootng ball ammo i shot all of the above and 9mm and loved it and now i love shooting and dont mind the recoil. about a month ago i shot the 500 S&W and didnt so much mind the recoil but rather the busting of my knuckles after i fired the weapon most likely due to poor grip on the weapon. the 9mm is snappy but its not bad or either is the 45 their diffrent like everyone says and sometime your first time shooting is a scary expirence but when you keep doing it it turns into a passion or love.

[Stevie-Ray]

But I can shoot a 1911 all day and frequently have with absolutely no ill effects or painWell, that's all that matters!:D

Seriously, I have found far worse recoil from my H&K USP45C than my Kimber UCDP, even though the Kimber weighs less. Neither are objectionable by any means, just an observation. It seems for me, 1911s are best.

Years ago Detonics made a pocket 9mm called the Power 9. I remember Peterson's Handgun Tests saying it was far too much recoil for them. My G26 is a pussycat, but obviously, depending on size, design, and weight, the 9 can be punishing by anybody's standards.

[xenatexas13]

I am a woman with a recently inherited Smith and Wesson 1955 45 Caliber Revolver (N Frame). I also have an STI Trojan 1911 chambered in 9mm. I was quite intimidated by the idea of shooting a 45 caliber handgun. When I finally got up the courage to try it I discovered much to my surprise that the 1955 is probably the easiest shooting gun I’ve ever fired. Recoil wise there doesn’t seem to be that big of a difference between the 9mm and the 45. My own current theory as to why is that the shape and fit of the grips might very well be the biggest factor in recoil for me as opposed to caliber.

[Headless]

My mother cannot even rack the slide on a 9mm, and my 9mm model 659 is too heavy for her to hold at arms reach without hurting her. When i first started shooting, my 9mm semi was way too much 'barrel flip' though i had no problem with the stout 'kick' of a .38 snub. I think, as usual, this is perspective. All recoil is totally subjective to the shooter...how you handle it depends on the forces involved (torque, flip, etc.) and the muscles you use commonly and have developed well. I've been at the range when someone is complaining about how a9mm feels...seen them pull out a .45 and have NO problems.

[Headless]

LeadPumper ~ it's unusual, but not that unusual, to encounter a newby who bursts into tears upon firing for the first time. It's usually a simple adrenalin response, nothing more, and tends to go away quicker if you let them know it's a normal response. Guys do it too, but don't usually cloud up quite so visibly as girls do (cultural training, I think) -- guys who have the same basic physiological response tend to flush, get shaky hands, and start dropping things.


First time i ever fired a gun i had the same response, funny you'd point it out so accurately. Put the gun down after the first mag and dropped the first 6 rounds i tried to load into the second one. Adrenaline is hardcore. Really opened my eyes to just how hard a tactical reload under fire might be when TSHTF in reality, especially for a revolver.

[Lonestar.45]

It's not the size of the cartridge but the size of the gun. I'd rather shoot my 1911 any day over my Kel-Tec 3AT.
I had a 340pd that I sold after a month because it was no fun to shoot and I couldn't hit a barn with it. But I'd shoot a 686 w/ a 4" barrel and enjoy it.

[K5mitch]

I just recently got my girlfriend shooting a CZ 75 in 9mm, and she loves it. I made a mistake the very first time we went to the range, because all I had was my 4" 357 revolver. She wasn't too enthused about the 357, and set it down after one shot. The next trip, I tried a different approach, and borrowed a friend's .22 revolver. She fell in love with the .22. After several trips to the range with the .22 I convinced her to try a CZ in .380 ACP. She was a bit leery of it because of the "big number" like my .357. I showed her a .357 cartridge and compared it to the .380 ACP cartridge. After a brief lesson in what "caliber" is, she agreed to try firing the CZ. She handled the 380 with ease, and loved it more than the .22. Then came the big step, the full-size 9mm CZ 75. Add another lesson about caliber, bullet weight, gun weight, and felt recoil, and she decided to give the 9mm a try. Turns out she loves the 9mm even more than the 380.

Now I just have to wait until she's 21 (a few months away) and I can get her first 9mm ;)

[darkknight]

get her a sigma she ll love it. and your wallet will love u more

[K5mitch]

Not a bad idea. I should try to have her shoot some DAO pistols on our next trip to the range. I know she didn't care for the DA pull on the .22 revolver, so we'll see. I'm just trying to get her to try different sizes, weights, and styles of pistols until she finds one she's comfortable with. Whether it's a Hi-Point or a high end 1911, I want her to be comfortable with all aspects of handling.

[Cousin Mike]

Some very thoughtful replies to this thread so far... Thanks everyone.

I guess I am sort of a jerk. :D

I started my girlfriend out on a 1911 in .45ACP - not the usual move, but that's all I had at the time. She loved it. Soon, after buying more guns and experiencing different calibers for herself, I was starting to think she just liked everything. We found out she has her limits when she tried my .357 Magnum for the first time. After talking about it, she determined it was the noise that bothered her more than anything else.

I also had a scary experience once where a lady at a shooting range I frequent had somewhat of a nervous breakdown due to me shooting my .357 Magnum in the next lane. Granted, she should never have been at the range in the first place - but that was definitely an eye-opener about noise-sensitivity.

I've taught a few friends and family members some of the basics. Not only have all (except my friend described on page 2) been great students and fast learners, but none of them have been recoil or noise shy in any real way. I guess I never really considered 9mm to be that loud, especially when you've got a bunch of assorted other 9's, .357's, .40's, .45's and other various calibers going off in the other lanes. I've never been lucky enough to have the range all to myself. :D

I bought a Ruger MkII .22LR, almost exclusively for the purpose of teaching new shooters, as well as improving my own shooting. It's worked well, but reading this thread has given me some ideas on how to better introduce new shooters to the defensive calibers. Here's what I'm thinking so far.

First: Introduce them to shooting with the .22, as planned. Teach grip, sight picture/alignment, breath control, stance, and other beginner-level stuff with the .22. Perhaps go through 100 rounds, or however many are needed to get the new shooter used to slight noise, recoil, etc. associated with shooting the .22LR.

Next: Move to 9mm and .38 Special. When I switch to these calibers, I'll use CornCod's technique - simply let them blast away with both for a while, just to get used to the "jump" in caliber/recoil. Once they're comfortable, go back to fundamentals w/the 9mm and .38 Special. I figure this will also be good for familiarizing them with both the revolver and semi-auto platforms, the difference in the sights, recoil, etc.

Then: Move to .45ACP - I think one of the things that got my girlfriend so into shooting was the fact that her first time, she mastered the big, bad .45! :D Once people see that the "hand cannon" .45 won't rip your arm out of the socket, or knock you backwards when you shoot it, they tend to gain a little confidence. So I think the .45 is a good gun to use with new shooters, simply based on the confidence boost it seems to give. I've also noticed that everyone I've personally introduce to the .45 ends up wanting one. I've always thought that .45 is easier to shoot for lots of folks than 9mm is.

Finally: Give the option to try the "rougher" calibers - .40 S&W, .357 Magnum, .357 Sig. These are the loudest and hardest-recoiling guns I own, and the ones that newer shooters find the most challenging and/or intimidating. I figure that maybe I'll shoot these first to give them an idea of the noise and flash associated with each caliber, and then give them the option to try each for themselves. I'm not really expecting most to be fond of these calibers right off the bat, but you never know.

Advice? Thoughts? Should I leave the big noisy catridges out of it altogether, or should I at least present the option to try them in order to complete the common-defensive-caliber spectrum? Maybe I should insist? In my CCW class they made everyone shoot .357 Magnum, didn't matter if you were 80 years old, or scared, or whatever. You had to cook off a few .357 rounds to pass their course. A few folks weren't crazy about that, but everyone passed.

There were also no .22's used, which is why I asked if it was really a good idea to start someone out on a .22. For experienced shooters they're valuable tools. They're great for lots of folks for lots of reasons, but your average young person (between ages 20-30) with no gun experience who wants a gun exclusively for self defense is more likely to see a .22 as a toy in my thinking. Need for a .22 is something that comes with time for a lot of folks. I've had a few people get bored with it inside of 50 rounds and simply refuse to shoot it anymore, so I guess it depends on the individual.

Thanks to all for the replies. All the different opinions, personal points of view, and experiences have let me know I should be a little more understanding. I still think any healthy young person should be able to handle 9mm if they're willing and able to carry/own a gun in that caliber (or larger), but now I can be a little more understanding of those few who have trouble with it.

[JohnKSa]

That's a pretty quick progression for some. Some folks don't have problems with it, but others may need to shoot a rimfire for awhile before progressing.

I guess that as long as you don't push them to move up and demo each progression so they can get a feel for what they're getting into it's ok. But I don't think that you should feel the need to get them from rimfire to magnum in a single shooting session.

[springmom]

This has been an interesting thread.

When I started shooting handguns, it was DH's Sig Trailside at first. (Fun gun). But when I started thinking about getting a CHL, I had no clue what I wanted, or what I would really be able to shoot. I do have arthrits in my hands and it's a factor much of the time.

A friend of ours, and his dad, are serious gun nuts and when DH told him I was thinking about this, he invited us to the range. He brought revolvers, semiautos, 1911's, you name it. I did not like shooting a revolver because the DA trigger seemed really tough to me (don't even remember now what type it was, apart from being a .38 spl.) But his GLOCKS!!!! WOO HOO!!!!! I took to the .40 like a duck to water. Came away having shot up all his ammunition :rolleyes: and had a GREAT time.

I ended up with an XD-40 for my first handgun. Recoil? What recoil?

I don't see the .40 as being a "rough" caliber. I do agree that the .45 is paradoxically easier to shoot than the 9mm, although none of them bother me much (rifle recoil does, but not handguns. Go figure.)

Personally, I think a new shooter should ideally have that same chance I did...a variety of guns and let him/her try any that they're interested in. A .22 to start, for sure; but when they go up to larger calibers, just teach them ahead of time about riding out the recoil and about proper grip. Double ear protection, good sturdy grip, practice recoil followthrough before that first live shot, and get 'em thinking about how much fun they're about to have, rather than how loud/snappy it's going to be.

Springmom

[longeyes]

You need a certain amount of controlled aggression to shoot a handgun well. This should translate into an aggressive stance, leaning into the recoil, which will dampen it considerably. I see so many people at the range who are doing their best to run from the shot, leaning backwards at absurd angles. You have to teach the gun who's boss.

[RiverwinoIA]

You need a certain amount of controlled aggression to shoot a handgun well.

This was something that really helped me. Once i started pretending this upcoming shot string was to save my life, my shooting really improved.

[tinygnat219]

My spouse is one who can't handle the 9MM. It's actually more of an autoloader bias than anything else. Like an idiot I started her on a friend's HK USP 40. That ALMOST turned her off to handguns.

I wiped the slate clean and got her to come back and try a .22 revolver. Best decision I have ever made. She liked it. I moved her up to a .32 S&W Long which she liked better because it has a low recoil, but makes a bigger hole. Next cartridge was .38 S&W, which was no big deal. She actually settled on a .38 SPL Ladysmith. Of course, she shoots the 100 grain SWC bullets, but at least it's not a .22. She has been a trooper and fired every handgun caliber in my collection. She just didn't care for the autos.

Have the folks who think recoil is too much in a 9MM shoot a 38 SPL revolver with a 4 inch barrel. They might just think they discovered oil.
TJ

[Ryder]

I usually recommend they "toughen up,"

This is the opposite of how I shoot. I absolutely do not care about recoil and ignore it completely, accepting it. Fighting it off and controlling it by being tough does not provide good accuracy.

Shooting very heavy recoil taught me there was nothing to be afraid of. If that can be safely handled anything can. It was not doubt in myself that caused me problems in the beginning but a lack of faith in the equipment. Who the heck wants a gun to explode in their hands?

Advice? Thoughts? Should I leave the big noisy catridges out

I started my kids out with highly supervised 44mag (age 7) using target loads and then gave them a 22 revolver. They did real good all by themselves after that. :D

[spacejunkiehsv]

I was doing some searching and stumbled upon your thread. The article (at the link below) may be interesting to read to those who followed this thread.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handguns_handicapped_shooters.htm

[Golddog]

I've introduced lots of people to handguns. My experience, regarding novices:

1. Good hearing protection is essential.

2. Everybody should start with a .22. It's the best way to familiarize yourself with a gun, without worrying about recoil.

3. Most women cannot easily rack a slide, and the snap of a slide puts some people off. Start with a revolver.

4. Start at seven yards or closer, so people can hit something.

5. Save Magnums and semi-auto centerfires for MUCH later.

6. J frames are guns for experts, because of their size (recoil, short size radius), heavier triggers (coil springs), and mini-sights.

7. It should be all fun at the beginning. Life and death defensive matters can be brought up later.

8. .380s in blowback guns have more felt recoil than bigger calibers. Forget them.

9. Many of us males are sometimes macho, posturing, insensitive jerks. So we think it's funny when somebody grimaces, squeals, or is shocked or stung by trying our big Magnums or .45 Colts. If this describes you, mend your ways or give up teaching.

[Cousin Mike]

And I have to say it was a pretty wonderful experience. Her first time shooting, she did better than I'd ever expect anyone to do their first time, especially at 51 years old. I followed my original plan, and took every handgun I had to let her try.

She got bored with the .22 after one magazine. We'd gone over gun safety, handling, sighting, and a bunch of other topics the night before, and morning of - right before we left. I started her out at about 15 ft., and she put all of her shots on target, first try.

"Oh... this is like a toy!"

So we moved on up to 9mm, which she liked very much and shot well with. I kept her at 15 ft, and once again, she put about half of her shots in the 10-ring, the other half falling in the 9 and 8 rings. We moved to .38 Special, same thing. Then I gave her a crack at the .45ACP, which turned out to be her favorite. She shot better with the .45 than she shot with the .22... Go figure.

I asked her if she'd like to try some .357SIG in my new carry gun... a Glock 33 (subcompact, for all you non-Glockers). She said "Sure!" I warned her about the noise and recoil, and told her that I'd load her one round in the magazine... If she shot it, and liked it, she could shoot more. First I wanted her to watch me shoot it so that she could get an idea of the sound and flash.

I fired, looked back, and she was smiling, waiting for her turn. I put one round of ammo in the magazine, she charged the slide, and pointed downrange, and put a shot straight through the 10-ring at 20 ft. She didn't even ask, or wait for me to do it for her like times previous, she just ejected the mag and loaded up 3 more magazines. Turns out she likes my favorite auto-pistol round just as much as I do... From a Tiny gun, no less.

From there, we went on to try the venerable .357 Magnum. Same deal, she'd watch me shoot it to get an idea of noise/flash, then try one round herself before loading up a full cylinder. When I was d0one firing my cylinder, I looked back to see if she wanted to give it a try. Her eyes were about the size of dinner plates, and she was anxious to try the .357 Magnum for herself. This time, she asked me

"Is that as far as the target goes out?"

When I replied that it went out to 50", she moved her targets out to 40" and loaded the revolver with Remington 125gr. JSP's, pointed downrange, and put a shot right through the 10-ring of a silhouette target. I literally couldn't believe it. She was smiling, and adjusting her grip - having a hard time believing how well she was shooting... To be honest, I was having a hard time believing it too... I've NEVER seen a newbie shoot like that... Let alone a 51-year old, short-sighted newbie! And this was my MOM! My 5'1, 115lb (maybe?) mom, who never even let me own toy guns growing up... She was at the shooting range, outshooting people who carry concealed - and at 40", she was hitting the target... With a .357 Magnum! After that, she kept her targets at 40" the rest of the time we were there.

My mom probably put 250 rounds downrange last Saturday in various calibers, and she didn't miss ONE shot. She never once missed the target at any distance, and her wildest shots fell in the 7-ring of the silhouette targets. Using bullseye targets, all of her shots fell within the ink, except for ONE, which was still on the paper and on target. Her (minor) flinching issues seemed to be all but cured inside of her first 100 rounds. I know that's not the case, and that she just did incredibly well for her first time... But not only was I impressed, I was amazed. And not only does she now want a gun, she wants to start going to the range on a regular basis, and she also wants her carry permit. I wish someone had taken her shooting when I was a kid, and she was a screaming anti. :rolleyes:

SO...

-She got bored with .22lr after 9 rounds.
-She loved .357SIG, and says she wants to get a Glock 33 (just like mine). :)
-She really liked .357 Magnum.
-She thought .38 Special was kind of boring, but she liked shooting the revolver.
-She LOVED .45ACP, and shot best with it
-9mm was a close second to .45ACP

So now, I'm not so sure. If my 51 year old mom can not only handle, but flat out ENJOY shooting mid-bore magnum rounds, big bore pistol rounds, etc... then I'm not sure I can respect a young guy in his 20's or 30's who claims 9mm is too powerful to shoot. YMMV. I'm also glad I stuck to my original plan. She likes shooting, and wants to go often... If I had only taken a .22, it would have been a very short, and boring trip - and I doubt she would be as enthusiastic about shooting as she is now. The look of disgust on her face after shooting it was almost priceless... Almost like,

"Why did you bring this? Is this even a real gun?"

I also don't believe most women have problem racking a slide. My mom is 51 years old, has arthritis in her hands, AND emphysema... After going over proper technique and safe gun handling, she never had a single problem running a gun on her own. She didn't have any issues at the range whatsoever. Most guns I own are semi-autos, and she was able to rack the slide with no issues of any kind.

It looks like I have a new range buddy, and a convert to our side... not to mention a whole new thing in common with my mom. Life is good... :p

[pax]

Cuz ~

Cool story, and great post. :D Now take her back again and again and again!


Golddog ~

I have never met a healthy adult woman who could not easily be taught to rack a slide. If you're encountering the problem often, it may be that you're not teaching them the easy way to do it. See http://www.corneredcat.com/RunGun/rack.htm for more about that.

pax

[Cousin Mike]

Pax, you bet! I think I'll get her a membership to my range for her birthday... Since that's in September, I've got plenty of time to take her everytime she wants to go, and I'd like to see if I can score her that G33 she wants as well(although I wonder how much she'd like a G26... hmmmm :) ).

Dad's next. :evil:

[KC&97TA]

I've looked through all 3 pages and have yet to see the biggest problems.

1. Your friend is a grown man, and wants to think that as a grown man he knows what he's doing and isn't listening to your advice, it isn't an issue with recoil, it's his issue to apply the basic fundamentals of pistol shooting.

2. Some people can't be helped, Some people don't want help.

My wife had never shot a hand gun till she was 24 yr old, and used to shoot on the Camp Pendleton shooting team, my mother at 45yr old had never fired a hand gun till she came to visit for a week and she did quite well and now has a CCW permit... everyone can be taugh when they listen. How you teach is a factor to consider, just because you can shoot doesn't mean you can teach.

I've talked to guys at the range, at IDPA and IDSC matches, and given them advice; sometimes they come back and say that didn't work and sometimes they come back and say that worked great, if it didn't work change dirrections if it worked find the next fault to correct or area to work on. I've learned that civilians would love to pay for my time to teach them to shoot better, I wish I had more time to teach, although I still haven't charged anyone a dime, I just enjoy training, teaching pistol and fault checking pistol shooters takes a skilled eye, there are just so many things that effect a round fired from a pistol after the primer is struck. Out of the 8 coaches that work for me 2 can do a good job coaching pistol and 1 of them is great at it.

I do this for a liveing, I run a Marksmanship Training Unit in the Marine Corps, I can make a rifle shooter out of anyone, but pistol; I've had 2 this year that couldn't be helped... both of them thought they were doing a great job, neither would listen, luckly only one of them is required to fire.

[Todesengel]

If you are perfectly healthy and can't handle a 9mm then i don't know wha to say...
My 130 lbs wife says shooting 9mm feels like shooting a .22 ...she loves to shoot 45's, especially her Kimber Ultra CDP .45

[bear71]

I think alot of the flinch or the apprehension c omes from the unknown, whether it's a .22LR or 454 Casull. The very first time you shoot a firearm, for me atleast, I don't try for bullseyes or marksmanship.

I get a good firm grip on the firearm and get a feel for the trigger and recoil by putting some shots down range with no intention of hitting a perfect 10 Bull.

Gravel pits are good for this, they're eminently safe to shoot into without having to be a perfect marksman on the first few shots. After the first couple magazines, the unknown is no longer an issue and conditioning can begin to take hold to the point where even heavy recoil isn't bothersome at all.

I would say for instructing a potentially recoil sensitive person would be to get a few shots in safely downrange without serious sight alignment to get a feel for the recoil and what to expect with a following SA trigger for example.

[Golddog]

Even when I show women the "easy" way to rack a slide, many continue to struggle with it, partly, I'm told, because of wrist/hand anatomy, and partly, I presume, because of culturally-ingrained awkardness about gun handling/fears.