Fulton Armory


PDA






tobeat1
May 23, 2003, 10:42 PM
I am going to buy an upper for an unfished bushmaster lower. I am fairly set on getting a varmint upper from bushmaster. HOWEVER I recently stubled accross Fulton Armory's website and I must admit to being more than slightly intriged by their predator upper. Looks pretty cool. I have not heard anything about these folks. I searched online and even tried to stumble through the threads on the firing line but could not find any substantial info on them. Please assist.

If you enjoyed reading about "Fulton Armory" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Pilgrim
May 23, 2003, 11:20 PM
Fulton Armory built an M1A on a Springfield Armory receiver for me a few years back. I am very satisified with their work, their customer service, and their prices.

Byron Quick
May 23, 2003, 11:35 PM
They have a top notch reputation.

SCarruth
May 24, 2003, 12:36 AM
I have heard stuff like overpriced, poor quality. Do a search on www.thefiringline.com and on some of the other forums and you'll find lots a input. Most of which is negative. Try www.sableco.net for a Rock river arms upper. hth

Sunray
May 24, 2003, 01:49 AM
Fulton is highly respected, but not cheap. Surf over to www.jouster.com for more info on what they've done for other shooters. The M14 or the Garand forums and ask. Good friendly bunch there.

echo3mike
May 24, 2003, 01:59 AM
You guys forgot to mention how popular they are. I sent an M1A in to them for some work in Jan 00. Clint McKee calls me to get the go-ahead for the work Apr 01. :what:

I've heard both good and bad reports about FA, but that rifle didn't justify a 15 month wait. But that's for 'smith type work...I'd think they'd have AR parts ready to ship on hand.

FWIW,
S.

craigz
May 24, 2003, 02:10 AM
I have a Fulton Armory M1 and a Phantom II upper, and I like them both a lot. Definitely expensive, but top notch products and fine people to deal with.

Redlg155
May 24, 2003, 03:02 AM
If this post is still up and running in a couple of weeks I'll post a review. I'll be ordering a Phantom II FAR M5 upper for my Bushy lower. This is the 20" model with the free floated tube and railed gasblock.

Anyway, at $500 for a complete upper it is very comparable to the others on the market. Given the features it seems like an excellent deal.

Guardian
FAR-M4 Flattop Upper w/16" M4 Barrel
499.95
Classic II
FAR-M5 Flattop Upper w/20" HBAR Barrel
449.95
QTY:

Classic II
FAR-15A4 Upper w/16" M4 barrel
499.95
QTY:

Classic II
FAR-15A2 Upper w/20" HBAR Barrel
499.95

Hornet
FAR-15A1 Upper w/ new 20" USGI M16A1 Chrome-Lined Barrel
POST-BAN
439.95


And the one I'll be ordering............
Phantom II
FAR-M5 Flattop Upper w/20" HBAR Barrel
499.95

http://www.fulton-armory.com/PhantomIIRifleUpper-500_50.jpg

I've seen Bushy and Armalite run higher. Rock River run a slight bit lower, but not much, so it seems that they really aren't that expensive.

I talked to the tech support folks today and Clint McKee sent me an Email stating that it will take a bit of time to build what I want, but never more than a week. That pretty much matches what their tech guy told me.

Oh..and as for ordering from Sable Co, the three times I have contacted them I've been told a 4 week wait on uppers by Mr Stanfield the Sales Manager. I haven't gotten to contact Mr Donnie Pridemore concerning this, but what I've been told is that they aren't carrying a lot of stock and RR is pretty much building them to order.

Good Shooting
Red

curt
May 24, 2003, 01:59 PM
I have heard stuff like overpriced, poor quality. Do a search on www.thefiringline.com and on some of the other forums and you'll find lots a input. Most of which is negative. Try www.sableco.net for a Rock river arms upper. hth

Do you have specific references or are you just talking? I have had Fulton do work for me and have been very happy with the work done and with my interactions with Clint; as a matter of fact he found a problem that would have cost me a ruined rifle.

On every forum and mailing list I've ever been to the consensus on Fulton Armory has been superlative.

Talking trash about other people is easy.

nextjoe
May 24, 2003, 07:25 PM
I haven't bought anything from Fulton or met Clint, but I've spent a lot of time talking with Walt Kuleck, and he seems like an extremely knowledgeable, helpful, friendly guy.

I've also examined (but not shot) an M1A that had been completely rebuilt by Clint several years ago, and it was a beauty.

That's the extent of my experience with Fulton. I agree that their prices are a bit high but I wouldn't hesitate to do business with them if they had something I wanted.

Best,
Joe

Detritus
May 25, 2003, 05:32 AM
Your input/advice/history is needed here...

i won't do business with Fulton.

yep Walt seems a nice guy, and i almost DID buy an AR from them.

but if Steve decides to post here, you'll see why no amount of kindness will make me change my mind about Fulton.

i can't articulate the situation as well as Mr Smith can, so i am hoping he will chime in. and i do not feel it is right to cut adn paste the contents of the e-mail he sent me on the subject. rather that it would be better if he spoke to that himself.

Jon Coppenbarger
May 25, 2003, 11:20 AM
I will not totally blast him or his company.
I will also say that he built great m1a's and garands and even if I have never had a rifle built by him I had bought lots of parts and never had a problem back in the late 80's early 90's.

the problem has arose with him on one forum that went off the line and was at the time the #1 highpower rifle forum that went down as he drove alot of the best shooters in the country off the web site which in turn caused everybody else to leave also.

he is not welcome on the national match forum sight and not really welcome on ar15 or florida competition sites as they will not tollerate his actions.

ok I will give you my reasons I do not do bussiness with him and they are my opinions only (but are shared by many others).

#1 I could not stand the constant trying to sell things on the forums instead of ever offering advise on shooting.

#2 his bad mouthing of a few of the top ar15 rifle builders in the country with no back up of anything he said.

#3 these builders have built the rifles for many national champion's and he has not built any ar15's that has won a national championship or you ever see a single top rated shooter using and this tied into reason #2 is the main reason for my disliking his company.

#4 his prices have dropped from what they were by large amount's due to his being made aware of what the competition was following and charging for a product that was close or better.

#5 he copied a few ideas from a few of the other smith's and gave them his on name's like he invented it! (sights) ect.

I will stop there now and remember these are my opinion's.

he as he says is a small couple of person bussiness as are a few other's that build top rate rifles.

I feel that with the decline of the m1a and garand in sevice rifle competition he is now trying to move into that circle and thats fine and I wish him luck.
but most of his bussiness came from his ads and not the service rifle shooting guy's.
you want to address the wait period, well for a one or two person operation like his it is a wonderlust for me that he can turn out a upper like the one you chose in a week when the other smith's are taking up to and over 9 weeks and more because of the back log of order's and it will be like that till most likely sept. at least. you want to see why he can do a m1a in about 4 month's or less when just a few years ago he took over twice that long and longer in alot of cases and that is the fall of the m1a in any type of competition.

now let me say as to the upper you are buying that does sound like a fair price and I do believe you will be happy with it and it looks nice also.


also as far as stating what is fact just go to the other boards and try to ask and defend him and you will be told he is not to be talked about and the threads will be locked in almost all of the threads and that is his own fault not any body else's.

you asked for opinions and I gave mine as I do not like my friend's being bad mouthed by him to build his own bussiness and out of respect I will never say who these folks are but a few people here know exactly who I'am talking about.

and as you see when he is brought up just look at the decent his name brings and thats enough for me to lock this thread or delet it also!!

Steve Smith
May 25, 2003, 11:27 AM
I'm doing my BEST to hold my tongue becase of the Mod title under my name.


(LOTS of edited text...sorry, after breakfast I decided to delete it all)



Steve

tobeat1
May 25, 2003, 02:53 PM
Thanks alot guys. I appreciate the input. Steve could you please PM me with the info? I understand not wanting to trash anybodies rep but I really would like to know the details. I was leaning towards bushmaster because of all the flak they had to take because of those two cowards from the beltway. They have stood strong by the second and did not wuss out in the face of political pressure. That fulton armory upper sure does LOOK kul- come on now, help a brother out...

Blain
May 25, 2003, 05:21 PM
F.A. is a HUGE Rip off for M14s! I mean, give me a break! $1,300 + Your reciever or a standard all USGI M1A?? That equals out to $1,700-$1,800 for a standard all USGI M1A!!!!!

BY contrast, Armscorp's standard all USGI M14's which they sell complete with a sling and magazine start at $1,300.... Just how does FA justify selling the same type of rifle without any NM mods for $400+ more beats the heck out of me.

I bought a full USGI M14 from Armscorp + NM mods and custom work for less than what Fulton wants for a rack grade M14!!!

Not to mention that the head guy at Fulton used to be an employee at Armscorp... Well if you want an all USGI M14 rifle, than just purchase one from Armscorp. You'll save a few hundred bucks which you can put toward ammo and mags.

Mannlicher
May 25, 2003, 07:32 PM
I have not bought a rifle from Fulton Armory (yet), but I have spent a lot of money on accessories. I have found them to be top notch folks. Fast service, products, upon arrival, are as advertised, and FA is easy to deal with.

...........and no silly rant either.
:cool:

Blain
May 25, 2003, 10:59 PM
As, my friend, but parts are one thing, rifles are an entirely different matter indeed.

SCarruth
May 26, 2003, 01:10 AM
Uhh Curt, lighten up. In case you forgot this is a board to share info. He asked a question and I responded with what I have heard and suggested he search on other forums. I wasn't talking trash, I just didn't feel that it was necessary to post a friggin bibliography or footnotes.

curt
May 26, 2003, 02:38 PM
Uhh Curt, lighten up. In case you forgot this is a board to share info. He asked a question and I responded with what I have heard and suggested he search on other forums. I wasn't talking trash, I just didn't feel that it was necessary to post a friggin bibliography or footnotes.

Perhaps i was a bit ..much. But i have had very good dealings with fulton and previously have heard nothing but good so i responded in defense.

I still haven't heard anything that one can't put down to just business, one side of the story or pricing. Pricing i can't argue with, they are expensive. If someone uses an idea that is patented then legal action can resolve that, if one doesn't bother to protect their ideas then i don't have a problem with someone appropriating them, its fairly common in this industry. I won't get into the he said/he said business.

HankL
May 26, 2003, 10:52 PM
Think twice post once. Here we go.

I have not shot High Power since before the ARs came into play and then only locally. Every sport has it's politics and the only input I got was from the group of true believers who went to Perry every year. Back then a few die hard individuals even shot Garands at Perry. I know nothing of the politics of the sport today. The only reason I had this rifle built was because I wanted one for selfish reasons.

Please allow me to relate my first dealings with Fulton Armory.

On 20 August of 1990 I sent $566.50 in the form of a bank money order and a signed copy of my dealer's FFL to R.J. Perry and Associates, Inc. to order an Armscorp National Match M-14 semi-auto receiver, including shipping.

On 16 October my receiver was shipped from RJP in IL. I shipped it to Fulton the next day.

It wasn't long before folks at Fulton knew me by my voice on the phone. I got a call from Clint and he explained that the reciever was not to NM specs and it was really out of whack.

To make an already long story shorter, McKee sold me a Springfield NM action for $400.00 and finished my rifle. He also hounded his former employer, Armscorp, until they would swap it for an in spec NM action.

By 20 January 1992 I sent my "in Spec" NM Armscorp off to Maryland for a future story.

Politics aside, and yes, I was into yacht racing, this was great customer service 10 years ago.

I digress, I have done business with this company more recently with good results.

Blain, Take very good care with the Armscorps:cuss:

Steve Smith
May 26, 2003, 11:02 PM
Folks you will have to remember that my point of view is from competitive shooting. The original poster is looking for a varmint rig. Of course, I have never doubted the quality of FA's products.

Blain
May 27, 2003, 12:27 AM
I would like to hear the future Armscorp reciever story, if you please.

surfinUSA
May 27, 2003, 01:08 AM
I don't know about M14s but I know FALs. For many Imbel ( an FN licensed receiver) and DSA (built on Styer machinery and blueprints also licensed by FN) are the only way to go. Many of these folks will say that everything else is trash and are out of spec.

For the most part all of those guns except the DSA SA58 but including the stg58 are rebuilt kit guns.

I've got a couple of FALs and I'll only talk about the one with the worst reputation. This gun was built by century using a hesse FAL-H receiver and what appear to be new or like new austrailian parts. This gun was head spaced properly, doesn't jam, its accurate and does every thing its supposed to except cost what some of the custom assemblers are putting together.

The custom assmblers (they claim to be gunsmiths but if you go to their websites they only want to see a working gun. What do you need a gunsmith for if your gun works) claim everything else is out of spec, some even show a horrendous collection of parts that didn't look like anything in my gun.

My point is that this is all business. But I do get sick of seeing some of these guys telling people that any product but theirs or cost less than theirs is out of spec, unsafe, unreliable and inaccurate.

Finally, if the parts are in stock how long can it take to put together an AR15 top end. The parts, knowledge of how to work a torque wrench and headspace gauge and about an hour of your time should do it unless you have to run out for beer.

Art Eatman
May 27, 2003, 09:24 AM
surfinUSA, I think some of our problems with this sort of deal on these rifles is a sort of "Brand-X Hustle". Relatively small market, relatively small manufacturers/assemblers, and a market group which is victim of a sort of cultural shift in society.

IMO, the cultural shift is that of (apparently) less "do it yourself". When I was a kid, my memories are of other kids' parents being involved in various projects. Working on their own cars, making fly rods, "messing" with their guns, doing many of their home repairs. This seemed to begin to change notably in the 1960s/1970s.

Instead of "I need to fix...", it became, "How do I fix..." and then, "Who do I call to have XXX fixed?" My rejoinder became, "If you can get a degree in engineering from a book, why can't you read a shop manual?"

So, with a lot of folks not having figured out about shop manuals and tools, and it not having occurred to them that this stuff isn't all that complicated, they're stuck with hiring things done. Some of the folks that get hired aren't as competent as they advertise themselves to be.

Now, I'm lazy, and I'm a cheapskate. I figured out early on that I have a knack for fixing stuff. If I don't have to pay somebody else to do things that I can learn to do, I don't have to work as hard to make a living--which lets me spend more time partying.

And I wind up with dial indicators and vernier calipers and shop manuals and bandaids on my fingers--and it all keeps me away from the BoobToob.

:D, Art

762x51
May 27, 2003, 04:31 PM
BY contrast, Armscorp's standard all USGI M14's which they sell complete with a sling and magazine start at $1,300.... Just how does FA justify selling the same type of rifle without any NM mods for $400+ more beats the heck out of me.

Armscorp's website lists their standard grade M14 at $1895. Where did you get one for $1300?

prezzz
May 27, 2003, 09:07 PM
I bought an A2-M4 upper. Couldn't be happier. As good of a product as I have seen out there in the AR products.

HankL
May 27, 2003, 09:08 PM
Blain, The future story of the in spec N.M. receiverfrom Armscorp was that I had it made up into a competiton grade as advertised by F.A. It sat on the rack because I was shooting the pearless that I had already received. A year or so later I was able to pick up a new E2 stock and hardware for a decent price and ordered the bipod and muzzle brake. Nice conversation piece and a great shooter.

The guns that civilian competition shooters used in the days I was playing were built by serious shooters who built up some rifles for themselves and started building a few for friends. Some of these guys got very good reputations because of their work and became full time smiths for the competitors. I would like to think that this is the way it works today.

Art, My first M1A was cobbled together in a garage shop but back then you could get good surplus parts and good receivers pretty cheap. M 21 Heavy barrel, mostly TRW parts, bedded in a GI plastic stock which was hand painted while hanging off a tree, a good leather sling and an ART II scope set me back almost 500 bucks gently used Springfield receiver included. She ain't too purty up close but when fed M118 Special Ball will out shoot the very expensive F.A. Pearless at range.

If Clint has done things harmful to the competition community shame on him.

Armscorp needs to be another thread on another day.

Best to all, I'm done with this one.

Hank

Sven
May 27, 2003, 09:55 PM
I still don't understand what the big problem is, even though I've been brought up to speed by those in the know. It's a free market - pay those prices if you want.

Fulton has earned a bad reputation in the competitive shooting niche... such that, some members here on THR wouldn't even answer a question I posted about Fulton... they have boycotted all Fulton Armory threads! "They" aren't reading this thread, either, probably.

Anyhow, I just got an M1A NM Hooded rear sight (complete) for $100 from a private party... same part goes for $150 plus S&H on the Fulton Armory site.

It DID take me a few weeks of hard searching (and the right friend) to find this part cheaper, but ... I like to hunt, and I like my $50.

-s


..oh yeah, and I HATE pop-up ads on websites, and Fulton is guilty of this. Thanks to Mozilla, it's not a problem any longer.

(edited to fix typo)

BlindRat
June 11, 2003, 06:33 AM
I've thought about this a while and have decided to break my self imposed silence on the subject. Like Steve Smith, I am a Highpower Competitor. One of the aspects of Highpower that I like is the willingness of the competitors to share information and help others. So here's some sharing.

I had a ringside seat to the controversy that Clint McKee stirred up on Shooters.com last spring/summer. In short, there were opinions of the quality of FA's work posted and in the process of trying to defend his work, McKee insulted by skillfull innuendo more than a few of the top shooters and AR Smiths in the game today. The threads and posts (those that weren't deleted by the webmaster) are still there for any that wants to dig a bit. I personally didn't care for a non-competitor telling me that what I as using was wrong and what he was selling was best.

Coincidentally, during that same time period Mike Orwan, HighMaster competitor and former gunsmith posted his experiences working with a Big Dollar Service Rifle Smith with his thoughts and observations;

Article - Is More Expensive Better? (http://www.mikesshooters.com/story.htm)

I have a good idea who he's writing about, but I'll let you draw your own conclusions. Hint: Plug his address, and Savage, Maryland into one of the "online map programs" and note the proximities.

For those that will say that I am just repeating hearsay. I'll say I've received first hand correspondence - some good, some bad. The bad revealed enough disturbing business practices to swear me off of ever doing business in the future with a certain company.

Redlg155
June 11, 2003, 09:45 AM
Ummm...I retract my earlier post. I ended up getting an Armalite. :D

Good Shooting
Red

Steve Smith
June 11, 2003, 11:03 AM
Thank you, BlindRat, for saying what I couldn't say.

Sven
June 12, 2003, 02:42 AM
Blings link is broken:

http://www.mikesshooters.com/story.htm

Check out the other links on that damn fine site.

If you enjoyed reading about "Fulton Armory" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!