Long distance rifle


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Bazooka Joe71
December 6, 2006, 01:26 PM
OK, I just bought my first AR15 a couple of weeks ago and I was going to try and just make it an all around gun for long and short ranges...But with this AWB scare I am going to buy up as many guns as I can in the mean time [I]just in case[I]. What I am looking for is something I can hit targets and plink with at 600-800 yards(maybe further). I won't be getting it for a month or so, so I have some time to decide.

So what are some good options for a "sniper" type rifle in the $1000 range.(not including optics of course)

Price may vary...If there is something a little more pricey, but is what im looking for, then thats fine. If there is something cheaper than that, then by all means! It wouldn't bother me to spend less:)


Thanks in advance guys.

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killzone
December 6, 2006, 01:43 PM
It s gonna be hard for many of us who has not yet stock up their arsenal of must have guns if the AWB hits us:mad: .

Just like yourself, I also have been looking for a long range gun. I have been looking at the AR 10 type rifles. I am still in the search for the right parts for a budget-all'in'one-long rage-tacticool rifle.

I would consider AR 10. By just looking at DPMS, they seem to have everything going for them and I think I will go for that direction. It looks like for about $1400 it is easy to put together a fine DPMS long range 308 rifle.
I am still doing my homework on that one so I might be slightly off on the cost department. But I home this gives you some idea!;)

KZ

DogBonz
December 6, 2006, 01:50 PM
Get a 6.5 grendel upper for your AR. Its a great long range cartridge. After replacing the trigger on my DMPS lower, my grendel is sub moa at 200 yards, and susposedly, the Lapua Senacars (sp?) dont "sort themselves out til 200 yards". With the old HEAVY trigger it was a little more tha MOA at 600 meters. I haven't shot past 200 with the new trigger yet, but my 200 yard groups went from about 1 1/2" to a bets of .75"... and that's with me shooting, I'm sure that some one who really knows what they were doing could shrink that a little (or alot) more.

Manedwolf
December 6, 2006, 01:50 PM
Best inexpensive longrange rifle I know of, though not a semiauto, is the K-31. Put a scope on it, and you're good...the bullet is a .308 in the 75x55 case, and it's frighteningly accurate. You can also operate its straight pull without losing your sight picture, so it's better than most bolt actions.

I'd get one for a reason other than any possible AWB...the supply is drying up.

If you want a .308, I'd get the Saiga .308 with a thumbhole stock.

USSR
December 6, 2006, 02:01 PM
So what are some good options for a "sniper" type rifle in the $1000 range.(not including optics of course)

Bazooka,

If you want a "sniper type" rifle, then you are talking about a bolt action rifle. While you can put a scope on an autoloader, it doesn't make it a rifle suitable to fulfill a true sniper's role with ranges of out to 1,000 yards. Both Savage and Remington make such rifles for <$700. For about $1400 you can get a FN SPR. And for about $2500-$3000 you can get a custom built rifle.

Don

redneckdan
December 6, 2006, 02:06 PM
for those ranges, you're looking at a .30-338 cal rifle. I would consider .308 to be the bare minimium, I would be comfortable with a .300 win mag and a .338 laupa would be the cats meow. I second the thought on a bolt gun. The m-21 was designed as a sniper support weapon, out to 600ish yards.

ArfinGreebly
December 6, 2006, 03:04 PM
Pretty much any big game rifle (where big = whitetail and up) will do.

I'm guessing you're not looking at taking elephants or hippos, so your high end is elk/moose/bear. That's .308 and upwards.

The Garand (.30-06) is a fine candidate. The M1A (.308) is another fine candidate. There are a number of Eastern Bloc rifles in 7.62x54 that perform ballistically very like the NATO .30 cal offerings (Mosin Nagant, etc.) and those are typically a whole bunch less expensive -- although scoping them can require a decent smith.

The .270 (see Chuck Hawks article http://www.chuckhawks.com/270family.htm) also has plenty of reach.

Many of these are bolt guns, but there's a series made by Browning -- the BLR series -- that are lever-action, high pressure cartridge rifles. The BLR in .308 costs between $600 and $700. It can be considered a "bolt action" but with the "bolt" embodied as a lever. They use a short stroke lever, and one can maintain sight picture while working the aciton.

Given that a rifle with no ammo is an ergonomically challenged club, you will want to make sure that whatever you choose, the ammo is widely available, and likely to be available in backwoods stores, and priced where you can afford to buy enough to get the practice you need.

All of us here are well aware that you can go through hundreds -- even thousands -- of rounds in a month or two of practice. It's no fun if you have to sell the children to afford your habit.

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
December 6, 2006, 03:24 PM
REDNECKDAN, Funny you mention .30-338 cal.

I have a .30-338 wildcat in a rechambered Ruger77 that was a .300wm.

(.338WinMag necked down to .30. Very similar to .308Norma)

Bought it used. When the guy was showing it to me that Saturday morning, a Coyote was trotting across his pasture. He grabbed it, chambered a round, walked out on his deck, took rest, fired. Doggie tumbled. We paced off well over 300 paces. (He was over 6', my pace count was nearing 350 as a shorter person.) While not an exact measurement. That sold the rifle to me. It's been my Deer/Elk/Bear gun since.

My worked up loads are MOA @200yds. I'm sure it's worthy out to 500. But out to 1,000? I would think it takes more of a custom gun to be reliable out that far.

-Steve

Bazooka Joe71
December 6, 2006, 04:08 PM
I'm sorry guys, I was in a hurry when starting this thread and I left a couple of things out:

1) I want it in .308(leaning towards this one) or 30-06

2) I want it to be bolt action.

I really like the Remy 700, but I just want to check out other options as well...How much does a nice M1A run?

El Tejon
December 6, 2006, 04:12 PM
If you are concerned about the coming AWBII, then why do you want a bolt-gun now?:confused: I am confused.

I would recommend an M14 copy. I like Fulton Armory, other good ones out there. Shoot it and get to know it. Put a good optic on it later, ScmidtundBender, inter alia.

Lonestar.45
December 6, 2006, 04:15 PM
Well, if you're worried about a new AWB ban hitting us and using that as a reason to stock up, I would not be looking at a bolt gun right now. That will be one of the least likely targets of a new AWB ban.

But, for what you want, I am partial to Remington. I'd pick up a Remington Model 700 VSF if I could spend that kind of money on a long range .308.

Bazooka Joe71
December 6, 2006, 04:22 PM
Yeah I guess I wasnt really thinking....Scratch the AWB part of the post :D

I just want to be able to have alot of fun at long ranges...

El Tejon
December 6, 2006, 04:33 PM
O.K., scratching away.:neener: :D

Joe, if you want a gun to tinker with, and for some reason you sound like the kind (I think most Hoosier gun owners prefer working on guns to shooting them:D), get a Remington 700. Tons of parts available on the market, including stocks and triggers which can really enhance rifle accuracy. Large range of optics available as well.

Lots of stuff out on the market, including used Rugers and Winchesters that can be bought for songs to high end dedicated precision rifles, Blaser, Sako, etc. ad infinitum. Google away, sir.

Hey, are you going to the gun show in Indy in January? Maybe something there. You can meet MPFreeman and myself, we just might have a gun or three to sell to ya.:D Check your pawn shops and gun stores. Estate sales are good too. Just have to get lucky with used guns.

rockstar.esq
December 6, 2006, 05:09 PM
A most irritating undertone in this thread is that the bolt action somehow requires the shooter to move thier face to operate the action. IF you've taken the time to get a properly sized rifle stock as opposed to the stumpy offerings of Ruger, K31, or orignial springfields you'll likely find that the bolt at it's rearmost travel is still not able to hit your face. Another aspect that might cause this is mounting your scope way too far forward and/or not purchasing one with decent eye relief to allow your face to be back far enough to not get hit with the bolt. Read "The Art of the Rifle" by Jeff Cooper, he specifically addresses how flawed the form is of most bolt action shooters as it pertains to operating the action. I don't move the butt from my shoulder nor my face from the stock as I work the action. In point of fact, I consider working the bolt the last step of my follow through as I'm watching my target through the scope! In answer to the poster's original question, I have a Savage 10FP-LE2 which is a .308 Winchester, 26" bull barrel, police edition rifle. Of note is the fact that the LE line accutriggers are adjustable to 1.5# as opposed to 2.5# on their other rifles. One sad note is that the bolt will often decock when closed quickly if the trigger is set to it's minimum weight. A little extra weight and it's perfectly reliable. My rifle has a best ever .19" center to center five shot group at 100 yards. Frequently it's sub 1/2 MOA. One final observation is that the plain Savage stock has a hard as nails recoil pad which I found to "Bounce" on my shoulder when shooting from the prone. A Limbsaver pad has made it much more fun to shoot because the muzzle doesn't climb as much as it used to. If I had it to do again, I'd probably buy the Choate stocked version as I'm planning to buy that stock now. The side mounted sling swivels are exceedingly comfortable for packing such a heavy rifle around.

Bazooka Joe71
December 6, 2006, 05:17 PM
El Tejon,

What is the exact date of the gunshow in Indy? Me and my buddy Exar were both talking about going to it. I will definately get back with you if we are going...I'd much rather give my business to a fellow THR member that has given me good advice in the past, than some joe shmoe that I don't know.

El Tejon
December 6, 2006, 05:24 PM
rockstar, amen.

Joe, the dates of the SHOT Show, January 12 to 14th. I'm not going to Florida this year to drool on guns, I'll be in Indianapolis with my brother and a couple of nephews buying guns.:D

Remember, whatever guns Matt and I bring to sell (thinking of dragging an HK93 around in January), that they are the most accurate guns that we have ever shot and they were only shot on Sundays by little old ladies.:D

Oh, that reminds me, if you are serious about getting into used rifles have you seen that AGI DVD on buying used guns. It's like $30 but worthwhile.

rangerruck
December 6, 2006, 09:23 PM
cz just came out with a new rifle, called the UHR or USR, or something like that. They are guarnteed to shoot moa to 1000 yards! very impressive.
but they will cost you. or you could just get a cz 550, or a Savage long range sniper rifle with 26 inch bbl, and still have money left over.

wanderinwalker
December 6, 2006, 10:13 PM
600-800 yards is still doable with something like, oh, an M1A, M-1 Garand, heavy-bullet AR-15. (I know for certain 600 yards is feasible with 80gr bullets in an AR-15.)

I would not recommend a heavy-hitting big-bore caliber. Be realistic about what you're going to punch with it. Rocks, paper, steel plates, coyotes, none need a .338 or bigger caliber to hit and dispose of. If you're looking at a wildcat like a .30-338, you'll be reloading, so might as well go to a 6.5x284 or similar hot-rod. (Ignore this if you're planning on using it as a big game rifle as well.)

Something lighter, smaller and with lower recoil and lower practice costs (and longer barrel life) is a GOOD thing. A 142gr 6.5mm bullet at 2700-2800 fps is no liability past 600 yards.

Over-the-counter, something like a Remington PSS (?), some of the Savages and a few others are adequate. In the future you will more than likely want a better barrel. I've never met a long-range shooter using a factory non-match barrel.

Or you could get an AR-15 with a 1-7" twist barrel, a Wylde chamber, some reloading gear and some 80gr SMKs (or my favorite, Nosler Custom Competition) and get to work. One round at a time only, but from that far away you've got time to reload! :D

grizz
December 6, 2006, 10:21 PM
If you use the search function, you'll find tons of praise for the Savage 10-FP line of rifles as long range weapons.

possum
December 6, 2006, 11:00 PM
If you were wanting to stay with the ar set-up you could always just buy an upper, to meet your needs, or a whole rifle. if you are going a whole new rifle i would suggest several options. they are as follows.

.223/5.56
Bushmaster
1) 20" target model a3 w/ acog, escentially what we used in Iraq as a dmr and they work great for the ranges you want to shoot. drawback being that you really don't want a front sight post sticking up there if you are gonna use a traditional scope, i have never liked that.

2) predator- 20" free floated, fluted barrell, ventilated handguards, scope risers. and houge ergonomic grip.

3) varminter- basically like above stated but with a 24" barrel which is a dcm heavy flutted barrel, 4 1/2lb trigger 2 stage,
Those are my top picks for Bushmaster.

Dpms
1)panther bull 20/24, free floated handguards aluminum, 1x9 twist, a3 upper. etc.

.308
Dpms

1)panther lr-308, 24" bull barrel, free floated aluminum handguards, but no foward assist, shell deflector, or dust cover.

I hope this has helped out, i am currently in the same hunt for a rifle like you want and tis is what i found so far, and our budgets are even too. i personally am gonna stay .223/5.56, just for the cost of ammo, and the fact of mags will swap from my m4 to it, and all other accesories. i am gonna go dpms, or bushmaster 20" a3 with acog, and call it a day!

Bazooka Joe71
December 7, 2006, 12:29 PM
Wow, great advice guys...Its much appreciated!

My dad has a few long range rifles, and a few of my buddy's do as well. A few of them are rifles that you guys mentioned, so I am just gonna have to try all of them out before I make my final decision.

I really like the idea of a predator, but I have never shot one, nor do I know someone who has one...What kind of MOA are we talking about with a 20" bbl? How much different would it be from a 24?

possum
December 7, 2006, 04:01 PM
bazooka joe71,
here is a link to a review of the bushmaster varminter with the 24" barrel.
http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster_Varminter.htm
i am currently looking for a link for the 20" predator model.

edit: here is a previous post from THR
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=208394

loki.fish
December 7, 2006, 05:02 PM
I think most Hoosier gun owners prefer working on guns to shooting them

I'm one of the few who don't fit your profile Tejon. I despise working on guns or cleaning them, but have no problems shooting them all day long.


Savage 10 series has been praised many times here. I'd buy myself one as I'm wanting a "sniper" type rifle.....but I want a semi auto one first.

If you want a "sniper type" rifle, then you are talking about a bolt action rifle

So are you telling me that the Sr-25 from Knights Armament isn't a "sniper" rifle? Last I checked the term "sniper" referred mostly to the person behind the gun and when most people refer to the term "sniper rifle", it's meant as a long range, extremely accurate gun. I myself am in the researching process of getting a semi auto "sniper type" rifle just in case an AWB does happen and happens sooner rather than later. Besides, I need to get myself shooting right handed since lefty bolt guns are way too much trouble to acquire.

Bazooka Joe71
December 7, 2006, 05:12 PM
Heck yeah possum...That 24" bushy looks nice...Real nice. I just checked my local candyshop and they have a NLIB with 2 mags for 900

What about a .50beowolf upper? My shop has one in decent condition with a dpms lower for 680.

loki.fish
December 7, 2006, 05:21 PM
Don't take my word for it, but I believe the .50 beowulf has a shorter range than the .223 does. So I don't believe you'll be doing long distance with it.

possum
December 7, 2006, 06:14 PM
What about a .50beowolf upper? My shop has one in decent condition with a dpms lower for 680
sorry man that is one thing i don't know much about but how sweet would that be for a cqb rifle!:D
here is a link. looks by the article, that it is a huge round, moving pretty darn fast, and has really good range capabilities, and still has good accuracy!

Bazooka Joe71
December 7, 2006, 06:42 PM
Oh, I just figured that big of a round would have the potential to be accurate from really long ranges...

As far as what you said Possum, that would be rediculous for cqb! The only problem with it would be picking up the pieces of whatever you shot at afterwards.:evil:

wilson
December 7, 2006, 10:41 PM
I mostly like to shoot mine i clean them, but prefer shooting. The only problem i have is , i have no place to shoot it. Atabury is still closed, and i live in town.

rangerruck
December 7, 2006, 10:51 PM
the problem with the 50 beo in an ar package, is the cartridge itself can't hold enough powder to be a long range threat, if it did, you would be carrying a huge receiver/lower , ar type weapon.

SolaScriptura139
December 7, 2006, 10:54 PM
A Savage or Remington bolt action. Don't worry so much about an extremely high quality, high priced gun so much as a great scope. 7mm Rem Mag is a good cartridge, pretty flat trajectory and long range, but you'll need to reload in order to afford a lot of shooting. I don't know the effective range of a 30.06, but ammo is much cheaper and comes in a much greater variety. .308 or .300 Win. Mag are also great calibers.

I don't know what your experience is with long-range shooting, but if it's limited, start off with a goal for 200-500 yards and get good practice there with a good 30.06, then go for a higher powered rifle system. Usually, the higher the power and caliber, the higher the cost (with the exception of reloading).

BAT1
December 8, 2006, 12:25 AM
Remington SPS 24" .308 dropped into a knoxx.com axiom v/s stock and put a scope on it.

Bostonterrier97
December 9, 2006, 10:25 PM
Long distance rifle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, I just bought my first AR15 a couple of weeks ago and I was going to try and just make it an all around gun for long and short ranges...But with this AWB scare I am going to buy up as many guns as I can in the mean time [i]just in case[i]. What I am looking for is something I can hit targets and plink with at 600-800 yards(maybe further). I won't be getting it for a month or so, so I have some time to decide.

So what are some good options for a "sniper" type rifle in the $1000 range.(not including optics of course)

Price may vary...If there is something a little more pricey, but is what im looking for, then thats fine. If there is something cheaper than that, then by all means! It wouldn't bother me to spend less


Thanks in advance guys.
----------------------------

Well..it sort of depends what you want, how much you got, and what you expect out of it.

If you want to go the cheap route: A Schmidt Rubin K31 or a Swedish Mauser is a good way to go. Cost is about $200.

If you want to spend a little more money: take a hard look at a Sako, Tikka, or CZ chambered in 7mm Remington Magnum.

308 Winchester normally runs out of gas at around 800-900 yards and goes subsonic.

One thing for sure: you will want to RELOAD and tune your loads to your rifle.

The really nice thing about the Schmidt Rubin is that the Service Round is already tuned for the rifle. It is not uncommon to find a Schmidt Rubin K31 that can perform between .75-1 MOA.

The awful thing about using a Mil Surp as a Long Range gun is that you will want to Drill and Tap the Receiver for a Scope mount.

Word of Advice: Do NOT go cheap on the Scope, Scope Rings or Mount!!!
Get the best scope that you can afford.

Ballistically the 7.5 Swiss (which is really a 7.62mm bullet) is equivalent to the 308 Winchester.

So again...it will run "out of gas" between 800-900 yards. But it is very cheap.
Ammo is not so cheap.

The Swedish Mauser would be a better Mil Surp Compromise in terms of Ammo Cost, Availability and Price of the Rifle.

klover
December 10, 2006, 12:09 AM
I found a .300 RUM in a pawn shop with a good scope as new everything for half of the $1000. Proly will sell or trade it off without the scope cause the ammo is sooooo expensive and the recoil is proly twice as bad as the cost of the ammo.
lol:p

wolfe47374
December 11, 2006, 11:59 PM
Why not look at the m-24. It's a .308, chambered to except the 300 wm. Good enough for the us army snipers, good enough for me. I can't shoot **** past 800 yards anyways hahahaha. I'm sure even the worst condition m-24 will out perform 99% of the people here.You can pick these up at gunshows for anywhere between $69 - $2000. Do your research and you can find a few gems out there.

JTW Jr.
December 12, 2006, 01:43 AM
Tikka Varmint or T3 Tactical would fit the bill.

Reginhild
December 26, 2006, 08:55 PM
If you are willing to go with the AR-10 platform, there are many good long range cartridges available from .308 on...

If you want to stick with the AR-15 platform, 6.5 Grendel is the only one for the 600-800 meters you are talking about. You can go to Wikipedia.org and search for 6.5 Grendel for lots of good info.

swgunner
March 2, 2007, 04:02 AM
what about 1903 springfield? isued as "sniper" rifle from ww1 to Korea.

LAK
March 2, 2007, 05:31 AM
What rockstar.esq said.

It is amazing how few people know how to effectively utilize the bolt-action rifle - and just how effective it can be.

Every bolt-action shooter deserves a copy of "The Art of the Rifle" by the Colonel as a companion piece.

------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

1911 guy
March 2, 2007, 08:28 AM
You said you preferred a .308 Win, were looking for accuracy out to several hundred yards and doing some long range plinking and predator control. Can't go wrong with a bolt rifle. I'd recommend the Savage short action models. Buy the rifle, an aftermarket pillar bedded stock or free float stock, bipod, scope, mounts and a reloading setup.

Savage Model 10 runs about $400 bucks, give or take.
McMillan makes a decent stock for about $175.
Harris bipods go for about $60 around here, depending on model.
Don't skimp on optics. Expect to spend at least $500 on a scope that will deliver what you want. I'm not a fan of Mil-Dot scopes for sporting use. You need objects of known size to range them, you often don't get that shooting varmints. I prefer to use a 200 yard zero, shoot varying ranges to determine where I get appreciable drops and write down the clicks. I then use a "cheat sheet" laminated to my stock and a rangefinder.

rangerruck
March 2, 2007, 09:14 AM
I say anything in either of the swedes; 7.5 or 6.5 swiss, the k-31 is a good idea, and then a sythetic boltie refurb by kimber or howa, in 6.5 they usually sell for 400 or less.

USSR
March 2, 2007, 09:57 AM
McMillan makes a decent stock for about $175.

Where??? I'll buy all the McMillan stocks you can get for $175.

Don

Matt Dillon
March 2, 2007, 10:02 AM
+1 on the K 31. Grafs usuall has brass for the 7.55 Swiss, and you can purchase GP11 from any number of sources.

Airborne Falcon
March 2, 2007, 10:59 AM
A brand spanking new Savage 110 in 308 with a bull barrel, poly black stock and accutrigger can be had for under $550.00 ... you cannot go wrong with a stick like that.

oregonhunter
March 2, 2007, 11:48 AM
Remington LTR. thats it.

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