Is 308 that much more accurate than 7.62x54?


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Kentucky
December 6, 2006, 11:45 PM
I am thinking I would like to start working on some precision shooting. I have been considering purchasing a bolt action 308 to work on this with. I already have a couple of Mosin's and I wonder how much difference there would be between the two. The ammo for the mosin is so much cheaper, not to mention the rifle. Would this be acceptable or do I need to go ahead and spring for the 308? Thanks.

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Third_Rail
December 6, 2006, 11:56 PM
Well, if you handload the correct diameter bullets (find out by slugging the bore) and find an accurate load, along with free-floating the barrel, you ought to be able to produce very good results in a good Mosin. :)

Niner
December 6, 2006, 11:58 PM
The ammo means a lot. The rifle means a lot. The scope, or no scope, means a lot. If you are talking Milsurps... the .308 2A Enfield comes to mind. It isn't all that special. If you get one of the, who knows where they come from, Nagant sniper 91/30's, it would have more potential than any other milsurp in the 308 vs 7.62x54r arena. ..... I'll be working on that theory in the next week.

Mosin 7.62x54r milsurp Ammo is mostly bad. It's amazing to me that the soviets made such really bad ammo. No wonder the cold war is over. I think milsurp addicts discoverd the real reason for the end of the cold war...the Russians couldn't shoot back on any dependable basis.

Third_Rail
December 7, 2006, 12:05 AM
Oh, come now... the 7.62x54R ammo floating around isn't that bad.

cracked butt
December 7, 2006, 12:12 AM
If you want to do it with a surplus rifle, It'll cost you- a Swedish M41B sharpshooter rifle or CG-68 target rifle would probably tops for accuracy, but both would cost much more than a new remington.

If you want a cheap accurate rifle that shoots fairly cheap (extremely cheap if you consider that its match grade) ammo, try a Swiss K-31.

A mosin nagant would be far down on my list to pick as a rifle for precision shooting of any kind. They are fun for blasting or plinking, but there are far better rifles out there.

darkknight
December 7, 2006, 12:14 AM
7.62 x54R has had its hand in warfare, considering it sereved from the first world war all the way up to vietnam. so by making such general assumptions as you have is just wrong. the ammo must not have been to bad considering russian snipers used it so much as had quite a bit of sucess with the round. yes the .308 is more accurate but this also maybe used because its produced here every day in brand new guns. i would love to see what a brand new MN could do. then you could make such accusations.

Langenator
December 7, 2006, 12:20 AM
Milsurp 7.62x54R is a lot cheaper than .308/7.62 NATO.

However...if you're going to handload, you'll most likely have a lot more bullets to choose from in .308, due to the fact that most Mosins have a bore diameter in the .310-.311 range (bullets this size are generally called .303 in the US.) And bullet choice can greatly influence accuracy.

.308 diameter bullets are about the most popular in the US, since they're used in both .308 and .30-06, in addition to various .300 magnums.

Cosmoline
December 7, 2006, 12:23 AM
7.62x54R has taken many trophies. The Finns in particular have had great luck with it in competition.

A mosin nagant would be far down on my list to pick as a rifle for precision shooting of any kind.

Um, you do know how many snipers in WWII used Mosins, don't you?

Mosin 7.62x54r milsurp Ammo is mostly bad. It's amazing to me that the soviets made such really bad ammo. No wonder the cold war is over.

Most surplus 54R is substandard east block crud, esp. the stuff from Albania. What you won't see for sale very often is Soviet sniper grade 54R or Finnish D-166, which between them racked up more sniper kills than the USofA has ever had in all its wars.

That said, if you're really serious about doing match shooting with a Mosin, I'd advise getting an M-28/30 or a proven M-39 and working up handloads. A run of the mill 91/30 is no match rifle.

steelhead
December 7, 2006, 12:35 AM
There are a lot of variables in precision shooting but using bottom end surplus ammo isn't one of them. If you reload, then I could see going with the 54R but quality factory ammo is hard to find. While expensive, you can still purchase match ammo for the .308.

Gewehr98
December 7, 2006, 01:24 AM
A well-made 7.62x54R rifle fed good ammo has the potential for very accurate groups.

Likewise, a well-made .308 rifle fed good ammo also has the potential for very accurate groups.

Start throwing variables in like sloppy chambering, oversized bore, poor bedding, heavy and creepy trigger, milsurp ammo, and so forth - then the accuracy potential declines, regardless of chambering.

Where some calibers really shine is when the rifle is matched perfectly to the cartridge it shoots. Cases in point include the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser M96 rifle, which would probably be impossible to produce these days due to labor costs. Same goes for the current batch of K-11 Swiss Schmidt-Rubin rifles and their 7.5x55 round. Both rifles and their respective rounds exhibit a very high level of quality.

Compare that to, say, Pakistani-made cordite MkVII .303 British ball ammo, as mated to an Ishapore NoIMkIII SMLE. Sloppy ammo, sloppy rifle, anybody's guess as to how it'll group. Swap the Ishapore with a British-made NoIMkIII SMLE in good condition, and chances are the groups will get tighter. Then swap the Pakistani click-bang ammo with good Greek or S&B fodder, and watch as the groups get tighter yet.

In other words, it's not the cartridge, it's the mating of the cartridge to the rifle, specifically the rifle you plunk your money down on. ;)

Clean97GTI
December 7, 2006, 02:21 AM
I don't think the mil-surp 54r is all that bad when you remember that it wasn't really intended to be super accurate. It needed to go *bang* and the majority of it does.
As far as using mil-surp for accuracy comparisons...um...:scrutiny:

I usually try to get the most recent production Czech light-ball that I can find and its never given me a bit of trouble from my M44. Its minute of Nazi accurate at 300 yards and thats all it needed to be.

when the one with rifle gets killed...:evil:

Limeyfellow
December 7, 2006, 02:35 AM
The real problem I found is the really good accurate 7.62x54r thats issued with the likes of the Dragunov SVD and matches is so rare in the US. That stuff is really impressive and has won plenty of international competitions. When comparing 7.62x54 to .308 we tend to see 50 year old surplus that was rushed together in a second or third world country being tested against much more modern and better quality controlled ammo.

Eightball
December 7, 2006, 03:06 AM
It would seem that the rifle the bullet is flying out of would seem to be the bigger issue, rather than the ammunition used.

Kentucky
December 7, 2006, 09:39 AM
I should have been more clear with my original question. I was wondering how the combination of the Mosin and 7.62x54 surplus compares with say a Save 10fp with commerical (not match) ammo. I will not be competing with this, and I do NOT have the money to invest in a super precision rifle or match ammo.

Ash
December 7, 2006, 09:51 AM
The Mosin wasn't just WWI. It served from the Russo-Japanese war until the Balkans/Kosovo troubles 10 years ago, and can still be found in combat from Afghanistan to Africa.

As to ammo, most of what is available for Mosins at this point is machine gun ammo, not rifle ammo (pressures are the same) that was designed to be fired with tracers where fire could be walked into a target.

But one thing to say about 78.62x54r...you can get it. There is very little 7.62x51 on the market, and what there is is Pakastani and Indian, which is certainly no better than any of the 54r on the market while being 2 to 3 times more expensive. You want to buy commercial ammo, there is good commercial 54r out there, but certainly commercial 51 can be better.

Ash

Clean97GTI
December 7, 2006, 10:14 AM
Kentucky, you're dealing with two different kinds of rifles and different kinds of ammo. The Mosin-Nagant is not a sporting arm. It is a military rifle designed to withstand abuse, work for the most poorly trained conscripted peasants, shoot the nastiest ammo known to man and come back for more. Cleaning is optional and when you do, it requires nothing more than old diesel fuel and used motor oil for lubrication. You can drive nails with the receiver and should the bolt ever get stuck, you can beat it open with a rock.

Such a weapon doesn't lend itself to supreme accuracy. There are accurate variants out there (the Finns) but mostly, you're dealing with incredibly cheap ammo and weapons. Find a Finnish Mosin or possibly a Russian sniper and make up some match ammo and you'd have something there. Otherwise, just enjoy the big fireballs as you shoot the corrupt fascist invaders. :D


The Savage with modern commercial ammo will be more inherently accurate. I wouldn't dream of abusing a newer sporting rifle like I would an old mil-surp. They just wouldn't stand up to it. The ammo is also much cleaner and of higher quality.

armoredman
December 7, 2006, 11:34 AM
Barrel diameter is critical. I have two Mosins, a 43 M-38 that will do 3 inch groups at 100 yards with Wolf ammo, or 6 inches with Czech Silvertip. On the other hand, my 1920 Izzy 91/30 has shown some promise with handloads, turning in this group at 100 yards.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/mosintarget102006.jpg

I just started tweaking for this rifle, so I think I might be able to do better.

Hoppy590
December 7, 2006, 12:03 PM
7.62 x54R has had its hand in warfare, considering it sereved from the first world war all the way up to vietnam.

recheck those numbers chief. atleast 1891- present day. 7,62X54r is still common chambering for com bloc sniper rifle and machineguns. the US of A just bought both the Afghani and Iraqi Army 7.62X54R (PSL i imagine) sniper rifles.

as for the topic at hand, your comparing apples to mosin nagants. not even close. IF you want a 7.62X54R accuracy rifle. you will need to invest into a SVD/PSL platform or a commercial rifle. a nagant just isnt going to cut it. im not saying they arnt accurate, im just saying technology has come a long way since 1891

Kymasabe
December 7, 2006, 12:25 PM
I've had close to a dozen different Mosins of the last couple of years and I was fortunate enough to find an unissued M44 that was absolutely the most accurate Mosin I've ever fired. I think with a like-new Mosin with a good clean bore and sharp lands (and decent ammo...I NEVER shot corrosive surplus thru that gun, only new production), that a Mosin is capable of good accuracy.

Blackfork
December 7, 2006, 12:49 PM
I haven't seen any Mil-surp ammo that is competitive in any Highpower Rifle competition with the exception of the USGI .308. Period. The USGI 118LR and the M852, (.308 with 175 Sierra and 168 Sierra), are all there is. The Mosins don't have fine enough sights, (you gotta have a lot of windage correction), and any Soviet Military ammo will not be competitive against ARs and other Highpower match rifles.

You COULD handload that cartridge and build a gun for it, but Mil-surp won't cut it. Mil-surp 5.56 won't beat AR handloads.

The Terrell club was full of folks shooting .5.56 Wolf and other military surplus ammo in their ARs at the monthly match, because it was cheap. 430 would win the match. Some of the team shooters started going over and shooting 480s with handloads. That was the end of the mil-surp and Wolf.

Some guy just emailed the match director for the May Regional at Panola. He wants to come shoot his K31 that weekend. He's never shot a highpower match before. (but he says he's a Marine) The match director gently advised him to come over for a monthly match and get familiar with the coarse of fire and range. A K31 isn't going to be competitive against ARs.

Be fun to shoot a Mosin only match, but I don't see that rifle being competitive even in Vintage Military Matches against 1903s or Swedes.

I strongly advise SHOOTING a highpower match, just so you will know whats possible. But as a friend of mine says: Shooting a Garand, (or other Vintange Military arm with Mil-spec ammo) is like riding a Mule in the Kentucky Derby.

MachIVshooter
December 7, 2006, 01:12 PM
7.62 x54R has had its hand in warfare, considering it sereved from the first world war all the way up to vietnam.

7.62x54R was introduced in 1891 and is still in use in LMG's and sniper weapons. It was dropped as the infantry rifle service round when the SKS was adopted, but has a continuing legacy of the longest service life of any military cartridge.

The 7.62x54R's biggest hinderence in terms of potential accuracy is it's rimmed design. The fact that the cartrdige headspaces on the rim means that chamber dimensions are that much more critical than they would be for a rimless cartridge that headspaces on the shoulder. However, I'm quite sure that if one were to build a rifle for the 7.62x54R using the same technolgy as is used for other benchrest rifles and then handloaded using premium brass and bullets, and only neck sizing the cases, one could ring out impressive accuracy.

I honestly believe there is no such thing as one cartridge being more accurate than another if all other variables are removed. It's just that certain cartridge/rifle designs have less margin for error.

rockstar.esq
December 7, 2006, 01:26 PM
Kentucky I should have been more clear with my original question. I was wondering how the combination of the Mosin and 7.62x54 surplus compares with say a Save 10fp with commerical (not match) ammo. I will not be competing with this, and I do NOT have the money to invest in a super precision rifle or match ammo.

I have both. Plain old Winchester silvertips and remington softpoints out of my 10FP will consistently hold 1" or less at 100 yards. My M44 and my buddies M38 are having a great day to break 2"!

I hate to upset people about their pet rifle but the whole "sniper" thing as it pertains to the Russians has FAR more to do with economics than it does with precision. One shot one kill was the only way the Russians could hope to fund the war effort. Most of the "sniping" was done from across the street distances. I doubt you'll find a great deal of 600+ yard one shot kills getting recorded. Plus the SVD has more utility as a "Designated marksmans rifle" than as a sniper rifle, accurate but not 1000 yards drop'em where they stand accurate. Frankly I'd say you're money ahead to buy a Stevens or a Savage and save for optics.

Mr White
December 7, 2006, 01:29 PM
Be fun to shoot a Mosin only match, but I don't see that rifle being competitive even in Vintage Military Matches against 1903s or Swedes.

With a plain Jane 19/30, I agree with you. A good M28/30 or an M39 with decent handloads could hold its own against the 03s, Swedes and K31s. But like someone said above, the sights on the Mosins are the weak link. You might be able to shoot a nice tight group, but windage adjustments tend to be a bitch.

We shoot vintage military bolt matches at out local club thru the winter. The Mauser vs Mosin matches are popular and are usually pretty even. My M39 holds its own.

Mannlicher
December 7, 2006, 04:51 PM
Mosin rifles were military rifles. They were never designed to be tack drivers, they were designed to be almost totally reliable.
They will not be more accurate than a good commercial .308 rifle.

USSR
December 7, 2006, 05:09 PM
The typical .308 chambered bolt action rifle will be more accurate than the typical 7.62x54 chambered bolt action rifle. There is nothing that a particular headstamp on a brass case does that promotes accuracy. It's all about the design and execution of the rifle and it's load (Oh, and the shooter as well).

Don

silverlance
December 7, 2006, 05:31 PM
I spent $700 on GP11 K-31 swiss ammo.

the stuff is unbelievably accurate. the rifle is unbelievably accurate, even with an inexpensive chinese made Barska on a drill & tap reciever mount.

Gun: $210 w/ scope
Ammo: about .30 a round
accuracy: bowling pins at 300 yards. i'm a lousy shot, too.

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