Best gun in the US

[Oldnamvet]

It seems like most of the top end shotguns are made outside the USA. It got me to wondering, what is the best (reliability and worksmanship) US made shotgun at present?

[theCZ]

Kolar comes to mind.

[sm]

New Mfg:

H&R Single shot shotguns.
http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Shotguns/topper.aspx

Pump.
Remington 870, 1100.

Semi
Winchester Super X 2

I believe the SX2 is all made in USA, correct me if I am wrong.

[bwhited]

Kolar for O/U's.
Not picking on you but 1100 is a pump?

[sm]

1. I was checking to see if anyone was paying attention.
2. *Ding* my coffee was ready and fingers were thinking coffee and not typing.

Pick one.

:D

< drinks coffee and eats chocolate chip cookies>

[1911JMB]

My vote goes to Mossbergs. Granted they are made with economy in mind, even more so than 870's which have gone down in quality in the past decade (in my opinion) but unlike my decent quality 870 express from the early 80's I've never had ejection problems from the mossbergs my friends own.

After a bunch of problems I took my 870 to the smith. Twice in one week. 870's seem more picky about keeping springs tensioned properly.

A 500 works right and shoots where you aim it. Thats all that matters to me.

[sm]

Not wanting pick nits, or start anything, are not the Mossberg's partly made in Mexico?

We forgot Ithaca being all USA. :)

[TrapperReady]

O/U - Kolar (made in Racine, Wisconsin).

Also, aren't Ljutics made in the USA?

[sm]

Trapper -

I forgot Kolar and I believe you are correct on Ljutics

[TrapperReady]

I also forgot about the Connecticut Shotgun Manufacturing Company. They make new Winchester Model 21s, A.H. Foxes and some other goodies.

Those guns are pieces of shootable art.

To paraphrase William Snopes-Clinton "It depends what your definition of best is".

[iowain45-70]

remington 870.

[BozemanMT]

CSMC

The BEST shotguns currently made in America.

Hand made, best quality SxS's and O/U's

http://www.connecticutshotgun.com/

New Model 21's, new Parker's, new RBL editions
Just amazing stuff.

No, you can't afford one. :cool:

[fineredmist]

It is heart breaking liiving a couple of miles from Ct. Shotgun and not being flush enough to buy one. They are truely works of art.
Who says that America can't build quality anymore.

[Dave McCracken]

If we're talking high end, the SBTs and O/Us from Ljutic, Seitz and Alferman come to mind. These are high volume, precision shooting tools made like Swiss Watches to very tight tolerances.

Alferman O/Us run over $30K. Ljutic Bi-guns are not far behind.

Kolars start around $8K. Kolar owners are a very happy lot. New Kolars are fit at the factory to the owner.

The stuff from CT Shotgun is superb, though as much for pretty as for shooting.

If we're talking production guns for use in the field, range and as needed elsewhere, the 870 triumphs again....

[Tom Held]

I think for the money that the Ruger guns, pistols to rifles, are pretty good buys. I agree that Galazan turns out shotguns equal in quality to any of the European guns.

[BozemanMT]

Did we forget about Ruger?

.

:barf: :barf: :barf:
trying to take the high road here.
Ummm, we didn't forget.

They make good solid entry level guns to a price point and do very well at it.
Nothing more, certainly not the best,

[PJR]

For target guns there is no doubt that Kolar can keep company with any of the foreign imports in the same price range.

The Galazan guns o/u guns are also in the same league with the offshore competition but that's to be expected of a gun that costs $50,000 and THEN you have to pay to get it engraved.:eek: Their sxs with the exception of the recently introduced RBL are modern recreations of classic American guns and FWIW I think they have gone over the edge with their higher end engraving options. The higher grade Galazan Foxes look garish IMO.

Where America does not excel and is the autoloading shotgun. Even though it was developed in the USA, the Italians have long since bettered anything being made in North America either past or present.

[JohnBT]

"I believe the SX2 is all made in USA, correct me if I am wrong."

Sorry, they're made by FN in Belgium. At least my 3.5" Waterfowl model was in 2003.

John

[zinj]

Where America does not excel and is the autoloading shotgun. Even though it was developed in the USA, the Italians have long since bettered anything being made in North America either past or present.

The new Remington 105 is a pretty interesting design. Time will tell if it makes waves.

[Lee Lapin]

If you mean best gun in the British sense of the word, I cast one more vote for the Connecticut Shotgun folks. I can't look at their website because I drool on the keyboard.

lpl/nc

[Oldnamvet]

I really need to get out more. I didn't realize that Conn. shotgun existed. But *sigh* I can only dream. Being on a fixed pension, I can't even hope for most of their "used" guns, some of which go for more than my house is worth.:what: But they sure are neat to look at. Wonder how the balance is? Probably the best I've ever held. I'll just stick with hoping for a new wingmaster in a few months.

[sm]

,

[RevolvingCylinder]

Slide-action:
Ithaca. Remington and Mossberg don't even come close.

[ilmonster]

Kolar's. Made in Racine, Wisconsin (down the road from me). Able to take hundreds of thousands or rounds. Comparable to Krieghoffs and Perazzi's.

[ArmedBear]

The new Remington 105 is a pretty interesting design. Time will tell if it makes waves.

I've shot one. If it proves to be reliable in long-term, heavy use, it is a strong contender for the best production autoloader, by every measure, ever conceived. But autoloaders are field guns, not the "top end" of the shotgun market by any stretch, even if they're at the top end of my personal budget at the moment!:)

As far as top-end stuff, though, we have plenty here in the US. Most are more expensive than the foreign alternatives.

Ljutics are wonderful guns, though they are utilitarian. You pay for a TOP QUALITY gun, not for a fancy looking one (or even an attractive one in some cases).

Never played with a Kolar or CT.

[1911JMB]

Maybe you guys can help me out with something I never understood. What makes a 30,000+ dollar shotgun worth the money? If we were talking cars, I could see spending the money for a Ferrari, but a shotgun? Its always seemed to me that fancy wood and fancy engravings hardly make a gun any more of a gun.

[45Guy]

I agree on the price issue. I'll spend my $300 on my 870 and save the extra $29,700 for a house, thank you. I don't care if the gun is custom fit or not, plenty of people, myself included, can shoot pretty darn well with an offthe rack shotgun than one custom fit and costing 10's of thousands of dollars more.

I do have to say that engraving is pretty nice looking though.

[Red Label]

Come on Boseman, Ruger may not be on everyones "top" list but you can dump them in the mud and they keep on running and they are still all made here. I personally love my Red Label and wouldn't trade it for anything! High quality that will last forever? 870s, I've got two of them. As far as the high priced top end guns I don't have a clue but I'm glad they are made here!:)

[redneck2]

What makes a 30,000+ dollar shotgun worth the money? If we were talking cars, I could see spending the money for a Ferrari, but a shotgun?
Now, IMO a Ferrari is pretty much a total waste of money. You can never legally use the speed or handling, and they're ungodly expensive to insure and repair.

Guess it's all relative. Bill Gates makes something like $10,000 a minute IIRC. Would you spend 3 minutes income on a fancy gun?? If I had his money, I'd have a rack full. If he had my (little bit) of money, he'd buy used 870's like I do. Then again, if I had his money I'd have a couple of Ferrari's.

I know a guy that got a custom $7,000 Perazzi trap gun. Says he doesn't hit any better, but he looks cool when he misses.

[MCgunner]

I do believe I'd take a Ruger Red Label any day over an 870 OR a Mossberg...:rolleyes:

Are those Kimber shotguns made in the US or are they a Kimber badged Turkish gun or Baikal or something? How about the Weatherby Orion, Japanese made maybe? Just wondering, figure they're not US built or someone would have mentioned 'em.

I own a Mossberg for duck hunting, of course. But, if you are talking "finest shotgun built", I'm not even gonna consider a repeater, much less a pump. Fine shotguns, to me, have two barrels. But, I'm a bit of a shotgun snob with champaign tastes and a beer pocket book. :banghead: I sure like my Winchester 1400 autoloader, but it don't rank as a "fine" shotgun. LOL BTW, I thought the Winchesters were no longer made? Someone listed the SX2, thought it was out of production. But, I don't keep up with the latest.

I wouldn't own a Farrari either, not when I can have a Suzuki GSXR1000 for under 12K for my excess. Of course, I don't own one of those either in a 70 mph world. :D In 3 seconds on that thing, you're over the speed limit. I'd absolutely LOVE to have a 30K shotgun, but much as with the jixxer, I'd be PARANOID of actually USING it. LOL! I'll keep my money and my shotguns.

BTW, if I had Bill Gates' money, I'd still prefer the motorcycle to the car, but that's the kind of guy I am. :D

[ArmedBear]

What makes a 30,000+ dollar shotgun worth the money?

Perfect parts fit, possible only when the gun is made by hand.

Certain designs which last much longer, but require extensive hand machine work. There are inherent problems with the O/U design, for example. Shotgun Sports magazine did a good article about it a few months ago.

With a mass-produced gun, you have the choice between various compromises. For example, a Citori is a (relatively) cheap mass-produced Japanese O/U. They are known for durability. The price you pay is that the action is an oversized brick, not a big deal if you're a big guy shooting 32" barrels, but the balance issues are quite noticeable in a shorter bird gun, by a shorter shooter. Change the design to improve the balance and you end up with a gun that costs more to make, is weaker, or both. Some inroads have been made in this area (Cynergy, Ruger Red Label, etc.) but there's still no free lunch.

Check out a Ljutic sometime. You're not paying for pretty, that's for sure.:) Open the action, see how the gun is constructed and how it all fits together. You just can't mass-produce a gun like that. People do shoot better with them, and they last forever. Since serious trapshooters go through tens or even hundreds of thousands of round per year, this makes a very durable gun a bargain over, say, a whole crate full of cheaper guns.

Certain other features also only come in hand-fitted guns, like extra trigger assemblies that pop in if your primary one breaks. This matters in competition like the Olympics, where you are only allowed to use a single gun. If you can't have a backup gun, you need a collection of pop-in parts that work perfectly, and of course you want parts that are unlikely to break in the first place.

It is perfectly rational to decide that you can do what you want to with an 870 and apply your hard-earned cash elsewhere. But you do get certain things with a gun like a Ljutic, things you can't get for less money.

Do you get what you pay for? Yes. Will it matter to you? Depends entirely on whether you have a need for the various features of the high-end guns.

If you race sports cars, a Ferrari might be the best choice for a purchase. The fact that some rich buyers just have them for the hell of it and never drive over 70 doesn't make them any less excellent sports cars. Same goes for trap guns. Serious competitors get serious equipment that, frankly, the rest of us don't need. Some people buy the high-end stuff even though they don't need it; that doesn't mean it isn't worth the money to someone who DOES.

Engraving is a different issue, of course. You can pay a lot of money for a run-of-the-mill shotgun, with really nice engraving. But that's art, not function. The shotgun is just the canvas; mainly you're paying for the art, not the canvas. A good painting is always worth more than the price of the canvas and the paint.:)

[JohnBT]

IIRC the Kimber O/U is made in Brescia, Italy and the SxS in Turkey. One example of what you get for your money - the ads report that the wood finish is 30 hand rubbed coats of oil. Let's see Ruger do that and still sell a O/U for $1000 (I peeked, Wal-Mart is charging $1175.) I understand that some folks need a gun with a tough sprayed on finish, plastic or otherwise, but it's still a cost-cutting measure to use a one step finish.
_
The SX-2 is still made in some models and some of the new SX-3 guns are on the shelves here.
_
As to what you get for your $50,000 or $100,000 when you buy a high-end gun, I suggest reading the Rizzini site for clues. Every single one of their guns is unique. AND THEY ONLY MAKE 13 to 15 PER YEAR. Each one requires 1,000 hours of hand work. So, why is hand work important? Quoting the site:

"From a mechanical point of view , machines can give you high precision ,and this is very important to have reliability of all components ,overall considering the hard work today's guns have to accomplish .

But after you have machined these parts ,there is an obstacle : if you want to fit them together without spending too much hand work, you must leave wide tolerances and ,on the finished gun , parts will already have small movements even when new. After long time and hard use this movements will become greater and greater and one day ,something will not work any more."

www.fllirizzini.it/working%20process.php

They do use machines because they make the entire gun in house - no subcontracted parts - but they hand finish all of them. Quote:

"The reason is simple : a complete control on the quality of each part of the gun means a total warranty on finished products .

Buying all machinery and tools you need to obtain this, was a great effort for a family-shop as we are (overall considering that our average production is from 13 to 15 guns per year ) but was the only way we could follow : all components you can find around do not satisfy the level of reliability we want.

So ,even if you want to make a few number of pieces ,you need precision machines, otherwise you will be a" Gun fitter", not a Gun Maker."

They make everything in house, even the hand forged barrels.

The wood finish? "To complete our oil polishing ,we need more than seventy days ,but the result will be under your eyes."

http://www.fllirizzini.it/immagini/r1lato.jpg

I know, I know, a used $500 Fox Model B kills 'em just as dead. And a cheap McDonalds chesseburger is just as good as a homemade one. ;)

John

[ArmedBear]

I know, I know, a used $500 Fox Model B kills 'em just as dead. And a cheap McDonalds chesseburger is just as good as a homemade one.

Bad analogy.

A top-notch homemade burger doesn't cost $200 or take a couple of years to make. And guns like that seldom make it to the field, even if they do kill 'em deader than a Fox -- a dubious proposition anyway. Field shooting results depend mostly on the shooter, not the gun. sm likes NEF's, for chrissakes. I sure wouldn't shoot against him for money, or even pride.:)

The problem here is that we have two common human reactions to top-quality items. They're two extremes, where most of us who just don't care so much fall in the middle.

Caricatures, to wit:

1. The Bumpkin reaction is "Hell, I cain't seen no diffrunce atall. That's just crazy!"

2. The Connoisseur, on the other hand, fails to understand that his own peculiar and expensive obsession is nothing more than his own peculiar and expensive obsession -- coupled with a magazine or two and a small club of people who share the obsession, and willfully share the same failure to understand.

Whatever floats your boat. There are good reasons that a very expensive gun costs what it does; you can't get that kind of handwork for less. Few know how to do it, and the small market ensures that only a few will be made. They're "worth it" if you want what only a handmade gun can deliver. (The Rizzini in the picture is beautiful, BTW) And there are good reasons to go have fun with a $250 gun, because you don't HAVE to get a second mortgage to enjoy hunting, or even -- gasp! -- clay shooting!:D

[redneck2]

Maybe 40 years ago I was at a farm auction. There were two young Amish guys bidding against each other on a really fancy Browning. Engraving, presentation grade wood, gold inlays...all that stuff

Went for something around $850-1000 IIRC. That was a ton of money then, maybe two month's income for the average person. I asked the kid that bought it what he was going to do with it.

"Hunt rabbits" was his reply

[ArmedBear]

There were two young Amish guys bidding against each other on a really fancy Browning. Engraving, presentation grade wood, gold inlays...all that stuff

The moral of the story for young men out there?

If you don't spend your money on bar sluts, fancy cars, stereos, TV's, or designer clothes, you can afford a mighty nice shotgun!:D

[win71]

Your're absolutly right. Like my dad always used to say,

"There's a bar slut, fancy car, stereo, t.v., and designer clothes on every block in every city in every state, it's the nice affordable shotguns that are hard to find."

[JohnBT]

"A top-notch homemade burger doesn't cost $200 or take a couple of years to make."

It might if you went to the trouble of breeding cattle and then raising the calf, butchering it and aging the meat. :uhoh: Don't forget growing and grinding the wheat for the flour & the tomatos for the ketchup and the lettuce and the cheese, etc.

"sm likes NEF's, for chrissakes. I sure wouldn't shoot against him for money, or even pride."

He's going to outshoot me no matter what I shoot in the way of a shotgun. Does that mean I should stay home or resign myself to the least expensive guns available? Did I say guns? Am I allowed to have more than one or is that unecessary too? No, sorry, I don't buy your logic.

I don't think folks who buy and use the high-end guns are worried about second mortgages. Or first mortgages.

http://www.fabbri.it/StevenSpielberg.jpg

"Steven Spielberg shooting one of his Fabbri shotguns with the Jurassik park engraving."

www.fabbri.it

"Tom Selleck shoots two Fabbri shotguns."

There's a pic of the King of Spain, too.

John

[sm]

JohnBT,

I appreciate the compliment.
I don't shoot like I used to, in fact , shotgunning is not about me, it is about others, guess it always has been.
Not pulled the trigger on a live shell in a spell, but I tote a .410 single shot, and assist some folks with it. Last shotgun I actually fired was a kid sized, .410 single shot, Neon Yellow with Tie-Dye - it will even light up under a Blacklight. I look good using this thing. Seems to me it shoots better with Jimi Hendrix or Doors with Van Morrison being played...:D

"He's a hard one" folks say about me. I quit trying to figure me out when I got as tall as kitchen table. Mentors...well I miss 'em.

Just a shotgun, the real deal is the one using it. Never bothered me or anyone else to shoot a high dollar shotgun, or a old single shot.

Webley & Scott 28gauge. I like this gun, wish I had one. Old boy said, "got 4 of these, use one, we are, gotta Respect the Quail like Ruark said".

We did, three of us , him, his wife, and myself, with high dollar dogs, using them Webley's.

Deal is, only thing that that remains of a person - is that which don't burn.
Meaning, everything can be destroyed, all that is left is the memories. Be a shame to not shoot a nice gun, enjoy, respect, and use it. Even if that gun burns up, somewhere, someone will pass on the story of a person using that gun...

I have a rebel streak, I had some Mentors , ladies and gents, and well...remember that rebel streak?

Just seemed right for a Mentor to show up, his truck with blue smoke trailing. Old Tuff-Nuts a bit faded, mud covering them scuffed boots. His H&R Topper fell out of - well it probably was a gun case at one time. He'd get laughed at behind his back, snickers after he walked by.

That was not a wad of chewing tobacco in his bib, that was cash money.
Others were quiet, playing dumb, in the shadows - waiting.

Money put down, and he would head out to do what he come to do. He did not miss, he was smooth, fluid, no wasted motion. Others on the Trap line a bit rattled, upset, must be needing to mess with gun fit again, shoulda bought that new shotgun , shoulda , coulda, woulda on hardware.

I liked the smell of them old cigar boxes, money, and more of it than the old box had put in it at the strart. I liked that old truck, his dog, even the way the truck sounded when he shifted gears on the column.
We'd be grinning...puff of blue smoke trailing as we left...


I started with Skeet, never got into trap, I have, just...skeet more like bird hunting, and there were them fellers teaching me defensive uses, Low 7 like a Tueller Drill - just we didn't know Tueller, or he had a drill named after him back in the day.

I'd shoot my nice guns , nice for me anyway. Mentors with money, friends I shot with "Our Kind" and such , would let me use a real nice high dollar gun.

I never forgot how to put candle wax, or electrical tape on a shotgun shell reloaded two times too many. My old gun falling out of a gun case, zipper broke, and string broke. Never forgot how to "forget to take off " a safety, when I wanted to shoot a practice shot round...fumbling, dropping shells, asking which bird was come out from what house and when...

I'd see my kind, some Mentors, and a cigar box that was not supposed to be there. Sometimes we squadded up together, sometimes they be using a nice gun, even a high dollar gun and me being the dumb poor brat that had not business on a field , dressed like I was, with that ugly gun in my hands...had a damn ponytail and what was with that yellow flag with a snake on it? [Gadsen]

They never let me forget when I was a wee brat me saying " I can run'em"

I'd fumble and drop shells ,I had permission to shoot two, if I could get the gun loaded...
I'd get two shots fired...be the lead off, grin at my kind, doing the pulling.
Not even call for bird, my game, my way...our way

"Run'em young 'un".

"We done got beat by a 28ga pump gun".
"A lot of damn gall using a SX1 against guns like ours"
"Only an idiot would shoot a JC Higgins with mud still on the stock"
"Idiot? he beat our butts and is in the shoot off, we ain't".

Always the shooter - not the shooting iron. Don't mean a person cannot have a real nice shooting iron. ;)

"That is the most pitiful excuse for a gun case I ever did see"
"Yeah, ain't it, dug it out of trash can, hand me some rawhide cord and let me see if this Perazzi can be tied in good enough...".
"Where is the single shot?"
"In the Browning gun case I think?"
"Where is the Citori?"
"Sitting on top of the fridge, had raccoons getting into cans last night".

How raised - what you do.



My next hankerings are a Stevens 311 in 20 ga, and learning about Black powder shot guns.
I am on this "going backwards" kick.

:p

[Oldnamvet]

Steve,
Black powder shotguns are really different. I have been shooting them on/off for 20 years+ now. Most fun is for bird hunting when you have to duck down under the smoke to see if you hit anything. Surprisingly effective. Use one for skeet and you will slow up the game, get your face and hands really dirty, and attract a lot of attention, wanted or not. The different BOOM of a bp muzzleloading shotgun is noticed right away as is the smoke. The real fun is cleaning it in the bathtub at home, stinking up the house with the sulfide odor, and hearing the rest of the family complaining, good natured of course. Start shooting a nice bp muzzleloading double and you'll have all new ways of pulling people's chains.:D I have not seen any reproductions made in the USA, mainly Italy (Pedersoli). Mine is an old Pietta, no longer made. Any other sources?

[sm]

I have felled ducks and doves using Black Powder shotguns.
Only I was spoiled. I shoot, grab another gun, and the first one is reloaded for me.

I could get spoiled with this gun bearer stuff. FWIW - No misses to date with me using a BP shotgun. Sounds good, but I am willing to mess up my perfect score.

Retriever : "Okay, we saw the hit, now where'd he go? Sneeze, bark, sneeze"
Me: "Don't ask me, you are the retriever, Cough , ack Cough"

Gun bearers just laugh real hard, and have big grins...

Back when non toxic shot was not req'd.

[MCgunner]

If you don't spend your money on bar sluts, fancy cars, stereos, TV's, or designer clothes, you can afford a mighty nice shotgun!

Don't know, but the way my mind worked at age 21 was something like, "I can have that $2500 shotgun that's just oh, so lovely or I can buy a Mossberg and then I can afford all the bar sluts, fancy cars, stereos, TVs and clothes I want! No brainer!":banghead:

[Stachie]

It depends on the intended purpose. For my purpose (i.e. home defense) nothing beats the Remington 870 Tactical. This shotty is reliable, proven, and moderately priced.

[ViniferaVizslas]

CSMC/Galazan is the finest gun maker in America today. Whether or not people see value in their products is irrelevant.

[danurve]

Is it just me, or does anyone else check how available chokes are for what ever shotgun your thinking of before buying?

[Windy Ridge]

This is an interesting thread and as a newby my opinion may be taken for what it is worth. I grew up shooting pumps m-12 Winchesters to be exact. A better repeating shotgun has never been built, the 870 is close but the balance isn't quite there. As a teenager I shot trap and over and unders still have some but now with Bifocal eyes I've found side by sides pick up targets much quicker. As for what they are worth guns are just a berometer on what has happened in the U.S. since WWII. In 1930 most everyone had a skill they were proud of and when you bought a product you looked at the quality and how it was made price was based on Quality. I can remember my Grandmother taking me to get a new Church shirt, first she looked at thread count then at the stiching, you would wear it till you outgrew it. Today we go to Wal-Mart buy one for $5.99 consider it a deal and get another in 3 months. Then we wonder why Wal-Mart has a larger cash flow than many third world nations and a lot of states and what can be done to keep them from changing America to a Debtor nation. If you buy the Ferrari you will find a prancing horse on every bolt head on the car all made by craftsman in house, If you anty up bigger for a Rolls Royce you will find the bolt heads all line up so the RR is up, the are filled to fit that way more time more money.
If you lay a M-12 next to a 870 you can see a differance even though they are both great guns the model 12 was put together by hand and the craftsmen that did it left something behind, pride and part of thier soul.
If you admire fine craftsmanship you will see why a good shotgun can be worth over $10,000.00 even if you can't afford it. If not shop at Wal-Mart.
In this world of mass production I find that as far as American shotguns, Ruger has a lot of pride in the Red Lable and even more in the Gold Lable if you can find one, I believe it is because of the admiration for craftsmanship that Bill Ruger had.

[ArmedBear]

what can be done to keep them from changing America to a Debtor nation.

Wal-Mart is now being blamed for that, too? Gimmeabreak!

Your elected representatives are doing that, and voters like it.

Here in California, we put ourselves into billions and billions of new debt in the last election, for things that are ill-defined at best, ill-conceived regardless, and that invite corruption at worst.

As far as a Rolls-Royce being "worth it" because they make all the boltheads line up, well, I guess if that's important to you, you gotta pay for it. I do appreciate things that I can't afford, but I also appreciate that there are companies that have figured out how to make things that work well for me, that I CAN afford. I do wish Remington still made the Model 31, along side of the 870, but the fact is that the buyer of the $10,000 and up shotgun doesn't even look at pumps any more, so craftsmanship goes into different guns.

Why is the work of the craftsman idolized, whereas the work of the engineer is denegrated?

[Geno]

This is a good thread. Why an expensive shotgun?

Same reason as buying a Rolex. Fit, function and to be able to leave it to your wife's second husband. Right along with your sports car, your fine cigars, and 30-year-old, single-malt Scotch. Not gonna happen!

Doc2005

[ArmedBear]

In general, a Rolex is an expensive anachronism. I appreciate what goes into it, but the technology it employs is obsolete for its purpose.

When it was the most accurate production watch you could buy, it made sense. However, now that you can get the same accuracy from a watch that costs $5.95, the workmanship that goes into a Rolex is merely quaint and interesting.

It is worth asking whether something is really "worth the price", just because the work that goes into it requires a lot of time and skill.

That said, I grow some of my own vegetables because they taste better than anything else. Economically, it makes no sense. But I enjoy the process.

[PJR]

but the fact is that the buyer of the $10,000 and up shotgun doesn't even look at pumps any more, so craftsmanship goes into different guns.
Ahem...I have a couple of guns in that five figure category and this buyer at least still looks at, buys and shoots pump guns. I'm off to the range in a few moments to give my recently acquired 28 gauge Wingmaster its baptism of fire. I'll bring along the 28 gauge P-gun as well but depending on how things go with the 870 it might just stay in the car.

Once you get into the five figure range you have to understand what you are paying for. I'll pay the money for a standard grade Perazzi, Krieghoff or similar grade guns because having owned other guns I understand the benefits. I have treated myself to wood upgrades on both guns but only because I got the stock in my dimensions at the same time.

What I won't do is pay for adornment unrelated to the functioning of the gun. Hand engraved side-plates on a boxlock gun are the single largest waste of money I can imagine. The Beretta 687EELL is lovely to look at but most of the money is dumped into the decoration. At it's heart it's still a 687, nothing wrong with them, but for the extra cash I'd rather have a Beretta DT10. It's a much better gun at about the same price.

You get what you pay for. You have to understand what you are getting for the price. Somethings are worth paying for. Others IMHO are not.

[ArmedBear]

Sure, but would you look at a pump gun FOR $10,000?

I didn't mean that guys with those expensive Italian guns with failure-prone inertia triggers, or the fancied-up German clones of old Remingtons, never look at pumps for duck hunting or other dirty tasks. They just don't like being seen with pumps at the gun club.:p

I know people, of various income levels, who have whole racks of guns that have never seen anything but the range, and other racks that never see anything but mud and dust.

But a 28 Gauge Wingmaster isn't close to 4 figures, to say nothing of 5. I suspect you'll like the Wingmaster anyway. Hell, I have found that I can shoot low-gun pretty well with an old Ithaca 66 singleshot in 20. Just when you buy a nice gun, you fall in love with a rusty $50 POS instead.

[Oldnamvet]

Shotguns have a lot in common with jewelry. Many people have a watch that they wear hunting and a different one they wear with their suit when going out. Both give you the accurate time but one also looks good on you and you appreciate the art and style. It is the same with shotguns. You could have two that you were equally good with, yet they are used for totally different purposes...one in the field and one at the trap range. It looks better on you. And who says we are not fashion conscious?:rolleyes:

[Pro_Gun]

I almost sold it. Had it for a long time. Think I'll keep it. Always goes bang.

[MCgunner]

When it was the most accurate production watch you could buy, it made sense. However, now that you can get the same accuracy from a watch that costs $5.95, the workmanship that goes into a Rolex is merely quaint and interesting.

Hell, I wait for 'em to go on sale for three bucks at Wallyworld. :banghead:

Seriously, though, I see your point, but a Rolex isn't a time piece, it's expensive jewelry and therefore of course it's ostentatious, it's meant to be. It's the same reason women wear diamonds and gold. But, it's mechanical, so it appeals to men. :D

A shotgun is purposeful. No, it's not jewelry. It is to be used. But, an expensive hand fitted shotgun WILL do the job better than an off the rack, just the way it is. If it also happens to be beautiful, hey, I ain't complainin'! :D I have an off the rack budget, but I do appreciate a fine shotgun even if I can't afford one.

[Dave McCracken]

One fo the things I like about PGC is the equality. The next guy on the line might be shooting a Parker A-1 Special or a pawnshop Stevens Single shot. Not many people care which, though pretty guns get admired.

"Best" is as slippery a term as "Is" to a press secretary. If we talk about engraving and marblecake walnut, the best may pack a name like Fabbri or Purdey. If we talk about unswerving service and comfort while competing, the names could be Alferman or Blaser.

And if we talk about shotguns we can HIT with as best, it could be any of the above, including that Stevens. or an 870, 500, 37 etc....

Best is what YOU want it to be....

[Michael Zeleny]

A shotgun is purposeful. No, it's not jewelry. It is to be used.All guns are purposeful. At the same time, most guns are jewelry. In fact, they number among the few kinds of ornamental pieces socially acceptable in Western societies for decorating heterosexual men.

[Michael Zeleny]

"Best" is as slippery a term as "Is" to a press secretary.True enough. But in the context of shotguns, "best gun" is a well understood term of art. Here is a representative passage from E.J. Churchill Gunmakers (http://www.ejchurchillgunmakers.com/pages/history.html):"The best gun owes most of its quality to hidden excellence. Fine engraving, which is innocently believed to be its one distinguishing quality, is but a minor item from a cost point of view. The major items are difficult to explain to those who have not experienced their benefits. Alternative grades are much like the best as they can be, made at the price; But a moment's consideration will make it clear the devotion of unlimited attention to detail by the best class of workman must make differences in functioning quality."
These were the words of Robert Churchill in the introduction to the 1922 E.J. Churchill catalogue.

[PJR]

Sure, but would you look at a pump gun FOR $10,000?
I might depending on the gun. A Winchester Model 12 28 gauge depending on grade and condition would command that price.

I didn't mean that guys with those expensive Italian guns with failure-prone inertia triggers, or the fancied-up German clones of old Remingtons, never look at pumps for duck hunting or other dirty tasks. They just don't like being seen with pumps at the gun club.
You must hang out with a more elite crowd than me. I don't mind mind being seen at the club with any gun, o/u, sxs, semi or pump.:D

I don't own a Rolex either. Omega is much better value. It keeps times as accurately as my Timex.:p

[Dave McCracken]

Mike, I'm well aware of how the Brits do best. Great marketing ploy. I was pointing out how slippery the term can be.

At this point in time, I've shot maybe a half dozen Purdeys, some H&Hs, a Grant,a Woodward, etc. All were pretty but I shot them about as well as I do my 870s.

Paul. two Ithaca 37s with full coverage ebgraving, gold inlays and superb wood that were made for President Eisenhower were offered for sale a couple years back. IIRC, $42K.

[Windy Ridge]

The observation on the 687 Beretta is very true, as you go up in embelishment you go up in price. In 1920 a Parker VHE grade ( lowest ) was the same gun as a AAHE grade (highest ). The same is true today in Most double barrels either SXS or O/U. There is a slight differance in repeaters. The theory goes like this: If a set of tooling will make 100 guns the first 15 will be built as Target guns, skeet,trap and sporting. The next 50 will go as standard or upper grade field guns sold threw regular channels and the last 35 will go as discount or sale guns. The theory holds that the Target guns will see a higher rate of fire ( 2 flats a month ?) the standard 1 or 2 flats a year and the discount guns 1 to 3 boxes a year. The owners of all of these guns will be happy and have few problems because of rate of fire.
As far as showing up with a repeater I'm as likely to show up at the shoot with my M-12 as my Beretta or Browning Clays gun. They all fit the same and its worth the look on my friends face when you break your doubles with a pump. By the way Cabela's had a Angelo Bee engraved M-12 Trap gun for $11500.00 it sold in 10 days I suppose the new owner will be ashamed to show it to the guys at the next trap shoot.:neener:

[MCgunner]

As much as I like my pump in the marsh, it really doesn't have any class, LOL! This is all just personal perception, but to me an auto is a step up the class ladder, then there's the O/U, then if you REALLY have class, there's the English stocked side-by-side. Single shots are for kids and serious trap shooters.

Stupid I suppose. My pump does a great job in the marsh. The only double I own is a beat up old side-by-side, but for some reason to me it has more class than my auto or pump. Go figure. :rolleyes: Maybe it's my one concession to gun snobbery.

[Brian Williams]

It would be the 12 gauge single that my oldest brother has and never shot. It is an old gun with a ring inside of the triggerguard that breaks open the gun. It was my Grandpa's we called him Tide, it means grandfather in Welsh. I had it at one time and my brother said he looked at the gun for years, I was in the Marines and moving around, so I gave it to him. Kind of regret it but He is a good Big brother. May be I'll give him a call see if I can borrow it for a while.....

For me right now the best gun would have been a nice Ithaca 16 gauge double I saw at a local establishment recently, was $495, shoulda, woulda, coulda, but didn't.

[ArmedBear]

The observation on the 687 Beretta is very true, as you go up in embelishment you go up in price.

A couple of beefs with the big Italian B:

1. They dumped the "essential" or whatever they called their matte field gun. I guess they were competing with themselves. It was a great choice, though, since you could get a wonderful O/U without paying for "art" you didn't want.

2. If you want a factory straight grip, you have to pay for a lot of gaudy decoration. For me, a straight grip is strictly a practical option for upland carry, which means I want it on a field gun, not a wallhanger. It's dirty and brushy here, and you often end up putting your gun in a thornbush to look for birds or water the brush. Southwestern quail hunting is no place for a highly-embellished gun -- not to mention that I think over-embellishment isn't always attractive.

But they make a great gun.

[farscott]

In general, a Rolex is an expensive anachronism. I appreciate what goes into it, but the technology it employs is obsolete for its purpose.

When it was the most accurate production watch you could buy, it made sense. However, now that you can get the same accuracy from a watch that costs $5.95, the workmanship that goes into a Rolex is merely quaint and interesting.In terms of tools, the Rolex, as addressed above, is obsolete. There are even other mechanical movements that perform better. However, Rolex still sells quite a few. Why? Some get sold due to the brand recognition. Still others get sold due to aesthetics. Some get sold just because. A few got sold to people who wanted more from a watch than just the time.

For example, I wear a GMT Master II. Why? Because I started my career working in laboratory that threw 10,000 watts of effective radiated RF power at automotive electronics. Even with 80dB of shielding, watches with quartz movements lasted days, if not hours. So my employer offered an allowance to purchase an accurate timepiece. I took my allowance and added some of my own money and bought my GMT Master II. That was almost twenty years ago, and it is the only watch I own. Could I have taken the watch allowance and purchased another watch for a fraction of the allowance? Absolutely. However, that other watch would have long been gone. What I appreciate about my watch goes beyond specifications and performance. The timepiece itself is art.

So it is with shotguns. In MY mind (and only mine), "best" requires something more than just doing the job well. It requires something which raises the tool to the level of art. While my 870s do the job -- and do it well -- I get the difference between them and my father's H&H Royal.

[Windy Ridge]

Armed bear I agree, the essential was a great gun at a good price, a better one was the next model with the 31/2" chambers. The barrels were heavier to take the stiff loads, the added weight made them swing great and they made great Clays Guns, unfortunatly also gone, the last replacement at about $1500. was I think called the pro hunter? It had that Really Ugly Extra-Wood and 31/2" chambers. Even though the essentials had walnut that would make a plank of Georgia Pine look fancy, I can not understand why anyone would put a decal over a stick of wood. The only benefit I can see is if your outboard quit and you had to use it as a paddle. I think the reason these guns are not made for long is that they don't make out well on them. Like cars and trucks the more options the more profit. A friends future brother-inlaw was an accountant for GM in the eary 80's when they made the Cadillac Cimeron and the Chevy Citation, both X platform cars it cost $600 more to make the Caddy with the same options as the Chevy the retail was about $8000 differance. Which one do you suppose they would rather sell? Get the consumer started with a good product and the next time maybe they will trade up. Look at the Remington 870, Express,BDL/CDL,Premier same Idea less money. Beretta 687-Essential-SP1-SP2-SP3-EL-EELL Same gun different trim.