Ohioans: questions about open carry marches


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Monkeyleg
December 9, 2006, 07:18 PM
Since the November 7th elections, there's been a lot of talk about having open carry marches here in Wisconsin to pressure the legislature. Some questions for those who were involved in Ohio's fight:

How effective do you think the marches were in getting your CCW bill passed.

How much trouble did local authorities give you?

Did you notify the authorities (police chief, sheriff, DA) ahead of time?

Did you pull parade permits?

Did you ever think there was a possibility of arrest and, if so, did you have attorneys at hand?

If anyone has answers to any of these questions, or other comments or suggestions, I'd appreciate hearing them.

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gopguy
December 9, 2006, 11:50 PM
Hi Monkeyleg. I organized a few of those when I was with Ohioans for Concealed Carry (OFCC). I am now with Buckeye Firearms Assoc. (BFA) We only did the open carry marchs after the Ohio Supreme Court said you could openly carry. The march idea came from a wonderful fellow named Vernon Ferrier was one of the original litigants in Klein vs. Leis. which finally got things rolling for us. Sadly Vernon passed away last year. You do want a lawyer. We had a law director at OFCC to consult however he was not at all the walks as we frequently had several in different places around the state on the same day. Anyway you want to contact the local law enforcement to let them know what you are planning, find out the laws in your area. We had no problems at all. In my experience most of law enforcement supported us and many a off duty police officer joined us in our marches. we even did a march around the Governor's mansion in Columbus. Truly infuriated his neighbors. lol Just make sure you walk on the side walks. If you are not carrying signs you are technically not a parade. That is one way to deny you. Also staying on the sidewalks is important and only cross at crosswalks. Obey all laws. It is pretty simple. Just plan your route and make sure to contact the press. They will be interested in making you look stupid so select someone to deal with the press and make sure everyone knows to direct the press to that well spoken person.


There are a series of articles here about the marches we conducted. Perhaps this will help. Good luck. Tim

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article776.html

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article-topic-11.html

http://www.ohioccw.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3103&Itemid=78

http://www.google.com/custom?domains=www.ohioccw.org&q=Inwood&sa=Search&sitesearch=www.ohioccw.org&client=pub-5790994880306023&forid=1&channel=2810036266&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&safe=active&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1&hl=en

Henry Bowman
December 10, 2006, 12:15 AM
I participated in the first one and they were extremely effective for our situation. Yours may be different.

Note that they were NOT marches or parades. Just some folks who got together an took a walk. Local authorities knew about them in advance, whether "notified" or not. It was emphasized in advance that no one should wear shirts or hats with ANY kind of slogan or statement. Not even NRA. Just normal folk out for a stroll, not trying to make a "statement."

We did have antis who showed up with signs and who stood mumbling "Potential muderer. Potential murderer." as each person passed. One moron walked behind me grabbing at my holstered pistol, trying to provoke a scene or a violent reaction of some kind. I did not oblidge.

Timmy
December 10, 2006, 08:18 PM
I think that if we do it, we should all buy the Airsoft guns that look just like the real thing. Nobody will be the wiser, and if the cops start arresting people, you don't actually have a real firearm on you. Also, you couldn't lose a valuable gun to "evidance confiscation" - not that the cops would ever do that.:rolleyes:

jnojr
December 10, 2006, 08:43 PM
"Open carry marches" by the Black Panthers in the '60s is why loaded open-carry is illegal in CA today.

I'm not saying that it couldn't work now, in Ohio, but there needs to be some thought and planning put into it.

jnojr
December 10, 2006, 08:44 PM
I think that if we do it, we should all buy the Airsoft guns that look just like the real thing. Nobody will be the wiser, and if the cops start arresting people, you don't actually have a real firearm on you.

They'd just charge something like "incitement to panic". The charges probably wouldn't stick, but you could still spend days sitting in a cell.

Timmy
December 11, 2006, 12:08 AM
Quote:
They'd just charge something like "incitement to panic". The charges probably wouldn't stick, but you could still spend days sitting in a cell.



Fair enough, but with a gun related conviction on your record you could possibly jeprodize your future of buying guns or getting a ccw permit if it ever becomes legal here. I don't trust our Governor and the dirty tricks that He'll use against us. Maybe when our new AG takes office he can make a ruling if it's legal or not.

Black92LX
December 11, 2006, 02:18 AM
We did have antis who showed up with signs and who stood mumbling "Potential muderer. Potential murderer." as each person passed. One moron walked behind me grabbing at my holstered pistol, trying to provoke a scene or a violent reaction of some kind. I did not oblidge.

Don't forget the some of the Black Panthers were there aswell.
We had support too. Phil Heimlich a local politician in Cincinnati came to show his support.
I attended the ones in Cincinnati and in Columbus. I think they were helpful. It got quite the news coverage. And it really wasn't bad coverage like I was expecting.

Henry I don't think I will ever forget the look on your face when that lady tried to grab your gun.

Molon Labe
December 11, 2006, 11:17 AM
We only did the open carry marchs after the Ohio Supreme Court said you could openly carry.I just wanted to use this opportunity to clarify something here.

Yes, the Supreme Court did say that we are allowed to open carry. But that isn't the reason we are allowed to open carry.

The reason we are allowed to open carry has nothing to do with the Supreme Court. We are allowed to open carry because there's no law that says we can't.

When it comes to any human activity, if there's no law that says you can't do it, then you can.

StopTheGrays
December 11, 2006, 11:27 AM
Henry-
Can you elaborate a little of what happened between you and the anti who was taking swipes at your holstered pistol? Did the cops do anything about it?

I do not know if such a thing would happen during a open carry outing in WI but if that is a tacit the antis might use it would be good to find out a way to handle that situation safely.

Coronach
December 11, 2006, 12:54 PM
what I like is that we have a thread where the posters who have actual experience with this said it went smoothly and well, and then the peanut gallery chimes in with:you couldn't lose a valuable gun to "evidance confiscation" - not that the cops would ever do that.They'd just charge something like "incitement to panic". The charges probably wouldn't stick, but you could still spend days sitting in a cell.I guess if the facts don't support your position, you just make up stuff that does. Fair enough, I guess. :rolleyes: Maybe when our new AG takes office he can make a ruling if it's legal or not.If what is legal? Open carry? It's legal.

As to the gun swipes, what exactly happened, and were the police ever notified? From the comments I gather that you were trying to avoid a scene, so I'm guessing not?

Mike

jlbraun
December 11, 2006, 01:10 PM
Henry Bowman,

Seconded on wanting to know what happened when someone tried to grab your pistol at the march.

jnojr
December 11, 2006, 02:02 PM
There are people in California right now who have been arrested for having perfectly legal rifles, and their rifles have been confiscated. None that I know have have been charged, but most or all have not had their rifles returned. The PDs are putting up roadblock after roadblock.

There is no penalty for this. Nobody is going to be fined, or arrested, or fired. Some of these people might get their guns back, eventually. Some won't.

Anyone who's planning an "open carry" march in anti territory needs to know that there is a chance that they can obey every law yet still lose their freedom and their gun. Smart-ass comments from the peanut gallery won't change that.

gopguy
December 11, 2006, 02:23 PM
Henry,

I know we have met now. I vaguely remember that someone tried to grab a gun during that first march. I well remember the antis and the "Potential muderer. Potential murderer." bit. They even ran in traffic aiming squirt guns at passing cars. The antis certainly looked like the south side of a north bound horse that day. Did you go into Vernon's house for sandwiches afterward?
Tim

gopguy
December 11, 2006, 02:30 PM
Molon Labe said Yes, the Supreme Court did say that we are allowed to open carry. But that isn't the reason we are allowed to open carry.

The reason we are allowed to open carry has nothing to do with the Supreme Court. We are allowed to open carry because there's no law that says we can't.

Actually that is not quite right. The State Supreme Court was forced to deal with Article One Section Four of Ohio's Constitution. They did not want to allow concealed carry but because the Constitution says "The People have the right to bear arms for their defense and security." The court knew that the could not get away with a complete prohibition.

As courts know rights come from God and not from government they could not deny the wording recognizing the right. To get around this they ruled you could openly carry but the state could prevent you from carrying "hidden" weapons in the interest of public safety. That ruling was so unsatisfactory that the legislature acted. However it must be noted again it was the original lawsuit in Hamilton Co that finally got things rolling for us here in Ohio. Thank God for Judge Robert Ruhlman who ruled correctly forcing the courts to finally deal with this long simmering issue.

Gene_WI
December 11, 2006, 02:44 PM
MonkeyLeg

Let us know what you are planning. I would join a march.

Coronach
December 11, 2006, 05:29 PM
I well remember the antis and the "Potential muderer. Potential murderer." bit. They even ran in traffic aiming squirt guns at passing cars.Oh, how I would have loved to have been on duty, assigned to the event, and have witnessed that.

That would be one anti arrested for menacing or inducing panic (depending on exactly what happened), or at the very least given a ticket for pedestrian in the roadway.

Mike

Henry Bowman
December 11, 2006, 06:11 PM
I didn't go into Vernon's house after. There were a LOT of people there and I need to get on to somewhere else.

I don't think that the young lady (college age) was trying to actually grab my revolver out of the holster. In her mind, she was trying to illustrate how dangerous it was to have guns in public that someone could grab. Actually, she made the case for allowing concealed carry, rather than requiring it to be open. She was merely stupid, not malicious. I did not want there to be an incident of any kind.

I was walking with Black92LX. She told us that she would feel unsafe if there were concealed guns allowed to be around. I asked her if she ever went to Kentucky (10 minutes away) or Indiana (20 minutes away). Yes. I asked her if she felt unsafe there. No. Both of those states have had concealed carry for decades. No response.

StopTheGrays
December 11, 2006, 10:24 PM
I was walking with Black92LX. She told us that she would feel unsafe if there were concealed guns allowed to be around. I asked her if she ever went to Kentucky (10 minutes away) or Indiana (20 minutes away). Yes. I asked her if she felt unsafe there. No. Both of those states have had concealed carry for decades. No response.
Brilliant!!!

I need to remember that line of reasoning if I ever get question about CCW from an anti that would feel unsafe if CCW gets passed in WI.

Black92LX
December 11, 2006, 11:11 PM
I don't think that the young lady (college age) was trying to actually grab my revolver out of the holster. In her mind, she was trying to illustrate how dangerous it was to have guns in public that someone could grab. Actually, she made the case for allowing concealed carry, rather than requiring it to be open. She was merely stupid, not malicious. I did not want there to be an incident of any kind.


she was also spouting something about her daughter if i remember correctly.i think it had to do with guns being in her daughters school or something. where i made mention to the fact schools are alrady gun free zones. And how one would be breaking the law if they were to take a weapon there concealed or not.
She was definatly a few items short of a happy meal. But i think towards the end what we were saying actually made a little bit of sense to her.

As far as people asking about the police. The only time I saw plice were at the beinging and end of the march (in the same place)
1 sergeants cruiser did go past but i think he was just going to the rallying point. Other than that the ciizen's on patrol walked the route with us.

Ohio Rifleman
December 11, 2006, 11:30 PM
I have a question about open carry in Ohio...I know state and federal law say it's okay, but what about many of the towns and cities? Also, do you have to be 18 or 21 to open carry?

zahc
December 12, 2006, 01:42 PM
I do believe, based on my best reading of the laws, that you technically have to be 21 to legally be in possesion of a handgun at all, in Ohio.

Coronach
December 12, 2006, 01:55 PM
Basically, yes.

There is a provision of the law that states that you can be under 21 and "supervised by an adult". What is so very amusing is that "adult" is defined as someone 18 years of age. So, as a 20 year old you could technically be supervised by your 18 year old younger brother, and be OK.

If this is not proof that your elected officials are idiots, I don't know what is. Remember, these are the same fools who crafted a provision into the motor vehicle code that required all tickets arising out of motor vehicle accidents to be resolved in court (that is, you had to show up in court, you could not just admit guilt and pay it like any other traffic citation). Then, when court dockets became utterly swamped and the voting public became outraged, they had the audacity to say that they did not realize that they had required every person involved in an accident to go to court. I mean...what the heck?

They might have fixed the definition of adult, as relates to the handgun law, or they may not have done so. One way or the other, I would not test it, unless you really want to be a test case. If so, I'd consult a lawyer first.

Mike

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