DAO is a SAFER carry gun... (that got your attention)


PDA






Maximum1
December 10, 2006, 03:08 AM
In this day and age I really don't think it’s wise to carry anything other than a DAO ONLY... Many will disagree, but the facts are non DAO guns on the market have one or more safeties because they need them...They go off accidentally that’s why the manufacturer put one (OR MORE) safeties on the gun!!! That wouldn’t happen with a DAQ.

Furthermore, when the bad guy is 21 feet and now charging you would you rather A) spend the 1.5 secs it take for him to reach you taking off the safeties or B) pulling the trigger on that ready to go (safe) DAO...... For me, I choose B...

And don't forget about those wrongful death lawsuits...Read Massid Ayoob book “In gravest Extreme” or Robert Waters book “The Best Defense. You soon realize the courts are not too kind on folks who “accidentally shoot someone…. The point when you remove the safety on that non-DAO it doesn’t take much for it to fire while with a DAO the only way it fires is because you fully intended to fire it…


One last point, before you reply seat back, think, then do some research before you jump in to defend you firearm ;-)

If you enjoyed reading about "DAO is a SAFER carry gun... (that got your attention)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
doubleg
December 10, 2006, 03:10 AM
Just carry a single action 1911 with no saftey on. ;) DAO theory has just been disproved.:evil:

TimboKhan
December 10, 2006, 03:25 AM
Well, I think your wrong for several reasons, but I say that acknowledging that DAO guns are perfectly suitable carry weapons.

Now to my reasons: First off, if it takes you 1.5 seconds to sweep a safety, then something is seriously amiss. Timing myself with my big kielbasa thumbs, it takes maybe .25 seconds to sweep a safety. That is simply an unrealistic time frame.

Secondly, if your going to reference Massad Ayoob, I think it is important to note that in "Combat Handgunnery" he makes precisely no claim to the fact that DAO's are any better than SA or SA/DA guns. In fact, Mas Ayoob has consistently recommended guns that are either SA or SA/DA. I don't think he is all that worried about wrongful deaths simply because your not packing a DAO.

Moreover, under stress it would be as easy, if not easier, to accidentally squeeze a round off simply because there isn't that little extra movement of wiping the safety or cocking the hammer. Don't believe me? Watch that video of the Las Vegas cop almost shooting a captured person in the head while she covers her partner. Thats a Glock, homey. Also, watch the video of the officer that goes on, specifically, about his "Glock 40" while in the classroom and then puts a round into the floor. Stress caused one accidental discharge, and being overconfident and forgetting basic gun safety caused the other. Again going back to Massad Ayoob, in the 5th edition of "Combat Handgunnery", which he wrote, Mas talks about people firing rounds off that they never even realized they fired because of stress. I submit that a DAO gun would provide no additional safety in those situations over an SA or SA/DA gun. Further, following the basic rules of gun safety, you should never have your finger on the trigger while pointing the gun at something you don't intend to destroy. Again, this rule applies evenly across all actions. Look, that old adage that the best safety is your finger is 100% true. SA or DA, the only way the gun is firing is if your finger is on the trigger, and safeties be damned.

You also point out the speed in which you can shoot a DAO in a combat situation, but you fail to mention that it is much harder to learn to shoot DA than it is SA. Yes, single action guns have safeties, but in essence so does a DAO gun by merit of having long, heavy trigger pulls. Plus, consider that it is much harder to learn to shoot DAO effectively than it is SA simply because of that long heavy pull. Certainly, it is a skill that can be learned, but not everyone has the time or the inclination to do so, particularly when they are perfectly defended with their SA or SA/DA pistol. So to answer your question directly, I choose A because I am a pretty good SA shooter and a below average DA shooter. I will take accuracy over speed any day of the week.

Finally, what do wrongful deaths have to do with any particular action? People have accidentally shot each other with lever actions, slide actions, blackpowder, semi, single, and fully automatic firearms, BB guns and every other type of gun you can think of. Defending your argument by saying that DAO is the way to go because of wrongful death is like saying that Hondas are the cars to drive because of slippery pavement. The two just don't match up.

Notice that I have not once mentioned any particular gun. If you want to carry a DAO, more power to you. Plenty of people do, and plenty of people do so safely. However, plenty of people also carry single action and SA/DA guns just as safely, and plenty of people have used those guns successfully to defend themselves and/or others.

sm
December 10, 2006, 03:47 AM
-Software not Hardware
-Four Rules Firearm Safety
-Matter of training, mindset, and practice.

One should Never rely on any mechanical devices to insure safety. We have four rules of safety for a reason, couple with Software, training ,mindset and practice.

AnthonyRSS
December 10, 2006, 03:57 AM
*yawn*

pale horse
December 10, 2006, 03:58 AM
"They go off accidentally that’s why the manufacturer put one (OR MORE) safeties on the gun!!! That wouldn’t happen with a DAQ.

Furthermore, when the bad guy is 21 feet and now charging you would you rather A) spend the 1.5 secs it take for him to reach you taking off the safeties or B) pulling the trigger on that ready to go (safe) DAO...... For me, I choose B..."

I am glad you have found your perfect weapon. However, you need to look up the FBI stats on the 21 ft thing. 21ft was the maximum distance, the minimum was more like 4 ft.

I choose A because my TRAINING takes over and the safety is a non issue. DAO is fine, but I do not prefer to use it in any capacity if I can help it.


"And don't forget about those wrongful death lawsuits...Read Massid Ayoob book “In gravest Extreme” or Robert Waters book “The Best Defense. You soon realize the courts are not too kind on folks who “accidentally shoot someone…. The point when you remove the safety on that non-DAO it doesn’t take much for it to fire while with a DAO the only way it fires is because you fully intended to fire it…"

I reckon there are a hundred cases you could draw from books that would support any idea or prefrence. Training is final. If you train to fail you will.


Notice I did not say anything about type of action, just training.

Devonai
December 10, 2006, 04:47 AM
A) spend the 1.5 secs it take for him to reach you taking off the safeties

Are you stopping to call your mother first?

One last point, before you reply seat back, think, then do some research before you jump in to defend you (sic) firearm

My "research" is a few hundred hours of range time, both formal (US Army) and informal.

I like DAO firearms. I have carried Glocks for many days (yes I know they aren't technically so). All of my current CCW pistols have manual safties and I use them. It is a simple matter of training to deactivate the safety and it takes virtually no extra time.

Make it part of your draw stroke, and there is no problem.

Headless Thompson Gunner
December 10, 2006, 04:52 AM
Goofy trigger mechanisms don't make you safe. If you're counting upon the DAO trigger in your gun too keep you safe instead of proper gun-handling technique, then you have no business using ANY type of gun.

Proper safety lies between the ears. No mechanical apparatus inside the gun will overcome your own ignorance and/or carelessness. It's the shooter, not the gun, that determines safety.

Any gun, either DAO, DA/SA, or SA, is exactly as safe as it's user. No more, no less.

BTW, DAO guns have multiple safeties, too.
BTW #2, my single action 1911 only fires when I fully intend it to fire.

Perhaps you should sit back, think, and do some research...

PX15
December 10, 2006, 11:25 AM
I think I missed part of this "DAO is a SAFER carry gun" deal..

I think a DA/SA is as safe, AND better choice for a carry gun than a DAO.

You still have the ad/nd protection with the DA first round, but then you have a much lighter, potentially more accurate followup SA rounds..

I don't care for a pistol with external safeties, as I consider my first DA round heavy trigger pull as my safety.

My two favorite pistols are the Sig P239 & Walther P99c/AS. Both pistols have, if you prefer, and I do, a first round fired DA.. If you have time and interest either can be cocked for a light first round SA shot. Best of both worlds in my opinion.

I have no argument with those folks who prefer DAO's, or SA's, that's their business. I just know what I prefer, and what works for me.

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_6401.jpg

Soap
December 10, 2006, 11:32 AM
And for next week's show: Glock vs. 1911. :banghead:

sm's post = teh wisdom.

treebeard
December 10, 2006, 11:59 AM
Just carry a wheelgun and call it a day!;)

carterbeauford
December 10, 2006, 01:00 PM
One of my DAO carry guns has a safety that works in similar fashion to my SA carry gun... I can draw and fire a DAO without a safety (P11) a DAO with a safety (PT145) and a SA with a safety (1911) with no measurable difference in reaction time.

They go off accidentally.

No gun goes off accidentally. Negligent people pull triggers accidentally.

ZeSpectre
December 10, 2006, 01:33 PM
I spent a lot of time considering this question recently and for me personally I've decided I would rather have either a DAO gun (first choice) or a DA/SA with decocker (second choice) for CCW.

In part (for me) this is due to the ability to "restrike" a round that doesn't fire.

Does that mean I think that other people are wrong or less safe? Not with modern firearms. Many layers of interlocks (plus the safety between your ears) mean that the odds of a gun just "going off" are almost microscopic at this point even if said firearm were dropped.

kennedy
December 10, 2006, 07:29 PM
DAO all the way(S&W 4043)

NailGun
December 10, 2006, 07:58 PM
DAO all the way. Smith 442 :D

Seven High
December 10, 2006, 09:51 PM
Maximum1: I agree with you 100%. If I was responsible for arming a military or police force with pistols, I would definitely get them DAO weapons. I have seen too many accidental discharges in my time. DAO weapons are more "soldier proof".

Alan Fud
December 10, 2006, 10:05 PM
" ... DAO is a SAFER carry gun ... "

Depends on the trigger pull. If it's a Beretta D or Sig DAK, I would agree with it being a "'safer' carry gun". If it's a Glock, I would disagree.

TC-TX
December 11, 2006, 12:16 AM
What a crock...

Double Naught Spy
December 11, 2006, 12:41 AM
And don't forget about those wrongful death lawsuits...Read Massid Ayoob book “In gravest Extreme” or Robert Waters book “The Best Defense. You soon realize the courts are not too kind on folks who “accidentally shoot someone…. The point when you remove the safety on that non-DAO it doesn’t take much for it to fire while with a DAO the only way it fires is because you fully intended to fire it…

One last point, before you reply seat back, think, then do some research before you jump in to defend you firearm ;-)

Do a little research yourself of more of Massad Ayoob's work and you will find that when it comes to first round misses, DA shooters tend to do more poorly with first shots than SA semi auto shooters. If you want to worry about wrongful death lawsuits, then worry about that first round miss that travels down range and hits the wrong person.

Ayoob noted that DA/SA shooters tended to do much better with their second shots than their firsts, the long draw of the DA trigger throwing things off.

So sure, you can argue that DAO is safer to carry, but based on the same source material, it can be argued that people tend to be poorer shots with it.

Black Majik
December 11, 2006, 12:44 AM
Oh boy...

I've already responded in the other thread "Safer Carry Gun: Glock or 1911" http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=239876 to this post, but I gotta chuckle that you had to find the urge to start a thread about this. And quite frankly, I gotta question your level of training with this post. Theres just so much misinformation.

Even reading your thread over and over, I still miss where you state facts on why the DAO is the safest action to carry. How about all those Glock NDs that occur (DEA guy comes to mind, so does the female officer at lowready with suspect on ground video), after all I thought DAO pistols were safer.

And if the 1911 didn't have a manual safety, it's still more dangerous. How? It still has a Grip safety that needs to be depressed. Either way, the gun isn't going to go boom unless you want it to, unless you were negligent in the way you handle your firearms.

All it takes is training, I'm not gonna repeat everything I stated in my reply to the other thread, but it doesn't take 1.5 seconds to take off a safety. It all depends on how you train, and what action you train on. For myself, I train on 1911s, so I swipe the safety instictively. Everytime that gun is drawn from my holster the safety is clicked off automatically. I'm sure I can shoot just as fast as someone on my level with a DAO gun or a DA/SA.

Anyways, I've spent way too much time on this post. :rolleyes:

FireArmFan
December 11, 2006, 12:51 AM
The way I see it is "A GUN IS AS SAFE AS THE PERSON HOLDING IT" therefore saying a certain action is safer than another one doesnt work for me. now this is only my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own. As many people have on this site have stated a gun is a tool and a tool by itself is not dangerous. if someone feels safer with a DAO good for them. i happen to like many DAO pistols. I tend to prefer SA or DA/SA because i shoot a SA more accurately.

iiibdsiil
December 11, 2006, 01:33 AM
I think he was referring to the 1.5 seconds it takes for someone to cover the 21 feet. Not saying it takes you 1.5 seconds to turn it off, but saying that is what you have to work with total.

If you want to screw around with 1.5 seconds of time turning the safety off, hey man, that's all you. When I'm dealing with that little of time, I want anything that *might* slow me down to NOT be there.

Headless Thompson Gunner
December 11, 2006, 01:50 AM
If the thumb safety is such a slow-down, hows come all the practical shooters competing against the clock prefer 1911s??

(Answer: The thumb safety doesn't slow you down any, and the single action trigger speeds you up significantly.)

Prince Yamato
December 11, 2006, 01:55 AM
Well, lucky me, I have a Beretta 92FS. I can just leave the safety off and then, voila, I have a Beretta 92G which can be fired double OR single action. What was the point of this post anyway?

Jamie C.
December 11, 2006, 01:59 AM
I think he was referring to the 1.5 seconds it takes for someone to cover the 21 feet. Not saying it takes you 1.5 seconds to turn it off, but saying that is what you have to work with total.

Seemed pretty clear to me:
"Furthermore, when the bad guy is 21 feet and now charging you would you rather A) spend the 1.5 secs it take for him to reach you taking off the safeties or B) pulling the trigger on that ready to go (safe) DAO."

When I'm dealing with that little of time, I want anything that *might* slow me down to NOT be there.

You'd better open carry then, 'cause any cover garments are gonna slow your draw a bit.

No matter what the case though, training and practice with the gun... or type of gun... that you choose (and your usual holster and method of carry) is the only real key to surviving a gun battle. What kind of "bells and whistles" the gun has on it is of little importance, so long as you're familiar with them.


J.C.

CPshooter
December 11, 2006, 08:06 AM
I personally don't even feel like you can classify guns as only DA/SA, SAO, DAO these days. They all work so differently, and have their own measures of safety. What is a safety? A DAO operation? why so? It doesn't make sense to me why it really matters whether or not a firing pin or a hammer is fully forward or cocked back. A DAO pistol with a 3lbs trigger pull(if you can get it that light with whatever gun you have) in my eyes is more dangerous than a SA gun at 7lbs...Why does it matter where the hammer is when what really matters is whether or not the trigger itself is capable of an accidental squeeze due to stress or a drop?

That's what im saying. With all the random safeties out there like XDs w/ their basically SA firing pin, made safe by a trigger than won't budge unless a finger is in the trigger guard....not to mention the grip safety that creates another "built-in" safety. Then there's the 1911..sure its a SA gun, but it has a grip safety. What makes that 1911 more dangerous than your DAO w/ its partially cocked firing pin/hammer? Either way for both of them to be shot it would require an intentional grip of the gun and squeeze of the trigger to set off a round. In addition, you are putting faith in the manufacturer to make a quality gun that you can hold that kind of confidence in, so malfunctions are neglegible, because both are assumed to be reliable and safe until intentionally shot.

So, again, what makes a 1911 less safe for carry than a DAO? As far as i can tell, nothing. In my opinion, its all about what the user is comfortable AND safe with. It's best to just pick a trigger pull style from one of several offered by today's manufacturers(ie: "DAK" "LEM" "AS"), combined with a trigger pull weight(most guns' triggers can be tweaked) that the user is comfortable with and can shoot well. It really does boil down to each shooter individually and their needs.

I never understood why people are always stressing over whether their gun is SA, DA, or whatever...seems so stupid considering there are just too darn many trigger pull/hammer variations available:what: Pick the gun that best fits its duty AND the user.

Autolycus
December 11, 2006, 08:32 AM
Timbokhan:

The Las Vegas officer had a Beretta. She did not have a Glock. The DEA agent who was "the only one qualified that he knew of" had the Glock.

Here is a link to the video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd_pgcmI490

The Real Hawkeye
December 11, 2006, 10:27 AM
If you want to screw around with 1.5 seconds of time turning the safety off, hey man, that's all you. When I'm dealing with that little of time, I want anything that *might* slow me down to NOT be there.The proper training technique with the 1911, as perfected by Jeff Cooper many long years ago, is to swipe off the safety as part of your draw and fire routine. There is NO extra time taken to do this. ZERO! You don't know what you are talking about on this point.

Wordsmith
December 11, 2006, 10:33 AM
Non-DAO is dangerous?

I wouldn't carry a gun that wasn't dangerous.

That's all I have to say about that.

;)

The Real Hawkeye
December 11, 2006, 10:37 AM
Reminds me of Jeff Cooper's story about the boy who informed the deputy sheriff that his pistol's hammer is cocked. The deputy said, "Yes, that's right, son." The boy asked, "Well, isn't that dangerous?" to which the deputy crouched down to meet him face to face and replied, "You damn betcha."

iiibdsiil
December 11, 2006, 10:46 AM
The proper training technique with the 1911, as perfected by Jeff Cooper many long years ago, is to swipe off the safety as part of your draw and fire routine. There is NO extra time taken to do this. ZERO! You don't know what you are talking about on this point.

Okay, and since when is a 1911 the only gun with a safety?

And, I betcha half of the people in this thread, provided they HAD to use their weapon, would screw up something, and I'm not saying I'm part of the half that wouldn't screw up.

All I'm saying is I don't want to have to worry about ANYTHING other then pulling the trigger. If I could open carry, I would, to avoid having my shirt catch, and trying to 100% locate the thing without dropping it, screwing something up, etc, in a 1.5 second time slot. If YOU are confident in NOT screwing anything up, that's all you man. Hopefully you are right.

I've always been taught simple is better, especially when it comes to things like, I don't know, YOUR LIFE. :rolleyes:

bakert
December 11, 2006, 11:01 AM
DAO is a safer gun for carry? NANNY STATE thinking??:rolleyes:

The Real Hawkeye
December 11, 2006, 11:06 AM
iiib, I've been carrying and shooting 1911s since the early 1980s. I got to the point long ago that I'm not even aware of swiping the safety off when I draw and putting it back on when I holster. It's just automatic. So much so that when I pick up a Glock my thumb automatically searches for the thumb safety and attempts to flip it down and when I go to holster a Glock my thumb searches for the thumb safety to engage it. This doesn't slow me down when shooting Glocks at all, by the way. If that level of training is not for you, though, stick with the Glocks. They are fine weapons too. Just not as good as a 1911.

Glocks, IMO, are for folks who cannot be trusted to train with their weapons. Not to say they are bad, and not to say that training with them doesn't make for a lethal combatant. Just talking about the design intentions. The 1911 is designed for one purpose, i.e., to be a maximally lethal weapon in the hands of anyone who trains with it. Concerns about the fellow who doesn't want to train with his weapon were not considered when it was designed. Only maximum effectiveness in combat. If I were to arm a group of men who had little or no training, and I couldn't afford to provide them with any, I'd give them all Glocks and a basic lecture on their use. If I had the funds to train the men, they'd all have 1911s.

PS About ten years ago, I was shooting next to a New York City police officer preparing for his yearly qualification. He was using a double action only pistol, I had a 1911. He had never so much as seen a 1911 up close before. He noticed how much faster I was shooting, and how much tighter my groups were at the same distance as he was shooting. He asked me about the weapon. I handed it to him and told him to fire a mag full. At first he had no idea how to operate it, and tried firing without taking it off safety. I showed him and he fired it. His group size was instantly cut in half, and he had a huge smile on his face, as if to ask "where have you been all my life?" I got the feeling he wished his department would authorize him to carry a 1911.

Jamie C.
December 11, 2006, 12:00 PM
iiibdsiil wrote:
...I betcha half of the people in this thread, provided they HAD to use their weapon, would screw up something....

And I'll bet you're right...

I'll also bet that the half that screws up will be predominantly comprised of DAO users/carriers. :neener: :p :evil:

( Sorry... I couldn't resist... :o )


J.C.

TimboKhan
December 11, 2006, 12:45 PM
The Las Vegas officer had a Beretta. She did not have a Glock. The DEA agent who was "the only one qualified that he knew of" had the Glock.

Really? I went and watched the link, and it just looks flat and so I always assumed it was a Glock. Well, since there is some doubt to this, I officially withdraw that example, although I could point out that if it were a 92, she could have done that in double action.

Justin
December 11, 2006, 02:10 PM
As an unabashed trigger snob, I'm just going to go ahead and register my vociferous disagreement of opinion and leave it at that.

TestPilot
December 11, 2006, 02:52 PM
It's all about probability.
Probability of damage by you unintentionally firing the gun on SA mode versus the probability of damage by you not hitting the opponent with DAO trigger's longer and heavier trigger pull.
If the former is higher than the later,DAO might be good for you.

I use a DAK trigger the P229R DAK has.
But,the reason why I use DAK is not because it's a DAO. The medium pressire trigger DAK has makes it easier for me to accurately fire the first shot compared to regular DAO or DA/SA which have a heavy pressure DA trigger.

SSN Vet
December 11, 2006, 03:57 PM
1. The Real Hawkeye's Jeff Cooper story
...dangerous? ... "you damn betcha" ..... I love it!!

2. Vegas video.....what a ditz....she almost shot her partner!!!
I wish I could hear what he said to her..
"put your #$^$$ gun away you #$&&**"
looked like she was going to shoot herself as she "confidently" re-holstered.


as far as the charging bull at 21'......
I'm either swingin' or side steppin' off the line....cause I certainly can't draw that fast....
(and it aint because I carry DAO with the manual safety on, either)

Walkalong
December 11, 2006, 04:05 PM
non DAO guns on the market have one or more safeties because they need them...They go off accidentally that’s why the manufacturer put one (OR MORE) safeties on the gun!!! That wouldn’t happen with a DAQ.

They go off when you pull the trigger, just like a DAO gun. Thus they are safer. Both will go off if you pull the trigger, but a single action with a safety has an added measure of safety.

Maximum1
December 11, 2006, 04:32 PM
doubleg wrote “DAO theory has just been disproved.”

Doubleg can you provide the data behind this statement that DAO theory has just been disproved? The reports I’ve read through web research (from FBI site and other Authoritative sites) plus two recent books (one entitled "Personal Defense") list countless cases where the “shooter” who was simply trying to protect themselves inadvertently fired their non-DAO firearm and were held both criminally liable and socially liable ($$$).

Data please…. :confused:

Black Majik
December 11, 2006, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by: Maximum1
The reports I’ve read through web research (from FBI site and other Authoritative sites) plus two recent books (one entitled "Personal Defense") list countless cases where the “shooter” who was simply trying to protect themselves inadvertently fired their non-DAO firearm and were held both criminally liable and socially liable ($$$).

Uhh... you too. Data please. You've still yet to provide any facts in your posts, only strong opinions.

hso
December 11, 2006, 05:18 PM
1.5 sec.???:scrutiny:

Using a 1911 format alloy frame pistol my times from buzzer to 5th round of 230 grain .45 on target range consistantly from 1.5 to 1.23 sec. That's starting with the safety on in the pancake holster at 5 o'clock.

In a recent class, ~20 people were all under 1 sec with 1911s. several folks were .85 seconds from buzzer to bang. One fellow was .6 sec from buzzer to bang! All from the holster with the safety on.

There are a lot of errors in the OP with the "go off accidentally" and the slow down being the most glaring.

As others have said, it's the software not the hardware. Training tells.

TimboKhan
December 11, 2006, 05:27 PM
list countless cases where the “shooter” who was simply trying to protect themselves inadvertently fired their non-DAO firearm and were held both criminally liable and socially liable ($$$).

Dude, seriously, you make it sound as if DAO guns have never been fired inadvertently. In other words, that sentence you just wrote essentially says that if a DAO gun was fired inadvertently, the person would not be held socially or criminally liable. Further, gunnies know that you don't really need a safety on a non-DAO gun, juries do not. I would guess that the second the jury heard that the awful handgun didn't have a safety, they would eat you for lunch. Thats just a guess, but I suspect that I am not far off.

never_summer
December 11, 2006, 05:45 PM
man i feel sorry for that DEA agent because there is like 20 videos of him on youtube. I would go with hso on this that training can make the difference

arnie08515
December 11, 2006, 06:53 PM
i have a p-990 DAO walther and that thing is incredibly accurate. I mean its like shooting a revolver where you really have to do all the things rights like trigger action, sight picture, and breath control. I am accurate with that thing as much as with my p99c - as. I like DOA as something different. no safties, no levers, just pull trigger and shoot.

Rotorflyr
December 11, 2006, 07:11 PM
Ayoob noted that DA/SA shooters tended to do much better with their second shots than their firsts, the long draw of the DA trigger throwing things off.

So sure, you can argue that DAO is safer to carry, but based on the same source material, it can be argued that people tend to be poorer shots with it.

It may be true that the DA/SA shooters are better with their second shot's then their first, however that doesn't necessarily hold true to DAO shooters.

One of the reasons a lot of LE Departments have changed to DAO is to keep trigger pulls the same with each shot as it was found that officers were "throwing away" their first shot for the lighter SA pull, this doesn't tend to happen with a DAO as the second pull will be the same as the first which apparently cuts down on the instances of them rushing the first shot. One of the main reasons they tend to shy away from SA is cause the whole "cocked" hammer thing tends to scare the sheep, not because it isn't safe.
None of which is relevant to a non leo with a CHL by the way.

Putting all that aside, I wouldn't say any one type of trigger is "better" then the next for carry, as when the it hits the fan, your going to react as you trained no matter what the system and when it comes to a trial (be it criminal or civil) the lawyers on both sides will use any argument they can to try and sway a jury to find in favor of them, so I wouldn't sweat it either way.
Carry the system you like/use best, hope you never need to use it, and train with it like you will.

FJC
December 12, 2006, 03:03 PM
I think it purely has to do with your training and what you practice with, and what you regularly carry.

I routinely switch between pocket and IWB carry. All my pocket guns (642, Seecamp, Rohrbaugh) are DAO. I've decided that for *me*, it's best if I carry a DAO-style pistol when carrying IWB. Why? So that everything works the same. In the adreneline-filled aftermath if I'm ever in a shooting (God forbid!), I don't want to have to think, "do I need to decock, or put a safety on, or what?!?". I want all my *carry* guns to work the same.

I still buy and love 1911's. And I own and love DA/SA pistols. I've just decided that for *me*, standardizing on one style of operation for carry is best...

Alerion
December 13, 2006, 06:42 PM
I think it purely has to do with your training and what you practice with, and what you regularly carry.

I routinely switch between pocket and IWB carry. All my pocket guns (642, Seecamp, Rohrbaugh) are DAO. I've decided that for *me*, it's best if I carry a DAO-style pistol when carrying IWB. Why? So that everything works the same. In the adreneline-filled aftermath if I'm ever in a shooting (God forbid!), I don't want to have to think, "do I need to decock, or put a safety on, or what?!?". I want all my *carry* guns to work the same.

Pretty much my feelings. Since I carry different guns depending on conditions (primarily determined by cover garments) I feel that if I can't carry the same gun I can at least carry guns that all function the same. I've seen too many people on the range pull the trigger two or three times with no results before they realize (or someone tells them) that their safety is on.

One of the reasons a lot of LE Departments have changed to DAO is to keep trigger pulls the same with each shot ...

Just for information purposes, I became a police officer about 30 years ago. At that time we were required to carry either a Colt or S&W, .357 mag, 4", double action revolver. Aside from that, we could pretty much get whatever we wanted. :what: Anyway, both on duty and when we qualified, we were only allowed to fire double action. (Keep in mind that a revolver only fires single action if the hammer is manually cocked.) The idea was that in a high-stress situation it would be too easy to have an AD with the much lighter SA trigger pull. Given the tendency of most people to "take up" a little bit on a double action shot I'd have to say the concern was probably valid. :scrutiny: I'll agree that it still comes down to what you train with but if you own guns with different functioning safeties you'd better do most of your training with ones that all operate the same. (let's see, do I push down with my thumb, up with my thumb, up with my trigger finger inside the guard, behind the guard???) :confused:

BTW, I think Steyr has the perfect solution to a manual safety. It's basically a bar that lowers inside the trigger guard above your trigger finger. All you have to do is raise your finger slightly and it's off. The only drawback to it is that every time I take the gun to the range I wind up pulling the trigger two or three times before I figure out why the gun isn't firing. :o :o :o Point actually being that, even though it should be a great system, the Steyr is the only gun I own that works that way. Since I shoot the Steyr rarely that strength becomes it's greatest weakness as well. Switching back and forth between a 1911 and a Beretta can be fun too. If I do carry a gun with a manual safety, it's always a "sweep left thumb down" type. So that pretty much rules out the Berettas although they are nice to shoot. :D

OFF

Tom

browningguy
December 13, 2006, 07:02 PM
You guys are getting all fired up about a guy that read some stuff on the internet and in a book. He obviously has no real experience with pistolcraft so why bother with it, let's talk about something interesting.

SWMAN
December 14, 2006, 02:50 PM
A DAO is a good legal defense pistol to have if you go to court for shooting someone. However, a DAO, or at least the ones I've shot, (semi-autos) have a long reset on them. That's why I carry DAs or SAOs or a S&W snubbie.

As for Massad Ayoob,

" I think it is important to note that in "Combat Handgunnery" he makes precisely no claim to the fact that DAO's are any better than SA or SA/DA guns. In fact, Mas Ayoob has consistently recommended guns that are either SA or SA/DA. I don't think he is all that worried about wrongful deaths simply because your not packing a DAO.",

he seems to change his opinion on guns and legal issues over time. My last readings of him seem to lean towards carrying DAOs as best if your legally invovled in a self-defense shooting. After all, most police departments want their LEOs to carry DAOs for legal defense purposes. If they worried about their officers being able to defend themselves with adequate firepower per unit of time, they'd have them carry 1911s.:D

XDKingslayer
December 14, 2006, 05:51 PM
Why would it take any longer to shoot a DAO weapon as opposed to a SAO weapon? Because you have to take the safety off?

Let's review...

There are three basic steps that you have to follow to shoot. 1. Unholster the weapon. 2. Raise the weapon and sight on your target. 3. Pull the trigger.

Ok, now stay with me. Those things have to happen regardless of DAO or SAO. The only difference being the manipulation of the safety. Now the nice thing is, we can slide that in just about anywhere.

We can call it 1.5 and perform that action between holstering and raising the weapon (this is where I prefer to do it). Or we can call it 2a. and perform that action while raising and sighting the weapon. Therefore making the time between 0 and 3 the same regardless of weapon action.

If you enjoyed reading about "DAO is a SAFER carry gun... (that got your attention)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!