[Blain]

Was just watching the "Heroic Afghan Freedom fighters" in Rambo III and it got me thinking. That desert is a pretty mean and harsh enviorment. Harsh baking heat and the terrible jams along with wear tear and corrosion from the sand.

Surely, it is no ideal place to be in a gunfight, as our boys have found out.

However, thinking about the terrible conditions of desert warfare also got me thinking about the other horrible environments for a gun to be in. Pondering the matter, I came up with a selection of what I could think of as being the worst possible conditions for guns to remain functional. Along with the desert there is;

A) The Jungle - Hot, humid, damp, wet, gunk, mud, growth, bugs, etc. Not a gun friendly place. Our boys in Vietnam know all about the problems a good ol Jungle can bring ya.

B) The Artic/Cold snowy climates - Can you say, freeze? Many guns cannot function well, if at all in the severe cold. Remember the reports of GIs having to urinate on their Garands in Korea to keep them functioning? The M1 is one of the most durable guns I know. Not to mention what the cold does for a shooter, or their trigger! Ever try to operate a trigger with gloves on? Believe me, in the extreme cold you NEED gloves or you won't have any fingers to pull the trigger with!

C) Marine Environments -Everyone knows the horrors that water and sand alone can do to a gun....in a marine type environment, these two blessings can team up to cause combined havoc. Not to mention that the water is no ordinary water. The salted water will help rust and corrode your gun faster than you can believe.


So there are the four main choices. Feel free to post telling not only what you picked as the worst environment, but also why you picked it. This should prove interesting. Also please feel free to mention any other environments you think I left out that deserve to be put in. I thought of a lot, and those seemed the worst bar none. Things like swamps/marshes are too close to jungles or marine type environments so they are not listed.

Have fun, and keep those guns clean!

[Mizzoutiger]

I think nowadays the environment doesn't play all that much a factor in the function of your weapon. Sure, you'll have your occasional jam for whatever reason, dust et al, but the degree of maintenance kept on the equipment keeps that from happening regularly.

The worst environment for me to have a gunfight is wherever I have the disadvantage compared to my enemy.

[Blain]

I think nowadays the environment doesn't play all that much a factor in the function of your weapon.

....I see that you have not had much experience in any of these enviorments....Fighting with your gun in the field in them is a LOT different than sitting on the range firing them. A LOT.

[Mizzoutiger]

Doi! Perhaps you could tell by my SN that I am a college student. You can further extrapolate from that that I am a ROTC cadet. No, I didn't freeze my ??? off at Chosin. I haven't seen time in Nam. I haven't had the "privilege" to be sent to Baghdad, yet.

I am however, training to use state of the art equipment. Improved since the days of all these grizzled Nam vets. They have been made to be more weather resistant.

But don't tell those Glock people that their weapons may function differently in harsh environments. They'll hear nothing of it.

[Mike Irwin]

All and every one of the above.

[WonderNine]

My Browning Hi-Power has done ALOT of rounds in the sub-zero temperatures (no gloves) and has never jammed once even with the grab bag of cheap Hi-cap range mags I use. With modern gun lubrication such as Breakfree CLP (which I use), I think that cold would be the least problematic environment for guns. And you can fire them that much more without them getting too hot.

The only problem I ran into was my front site breaking off and flying backwords (missed my face somehow) somewhere in the middle of my 4th magazine or so back in February :evil:

I assume it became brittle from all of the shooting in the cold....

[Nightfall]

Worst enviroment?

Hmm... I bet fighting in an active, erupting volcano would sure suck...

Yea, I wouldn't want to fight in an active volcano. :D

[WonderNine]

What about in space? :D

[Feanaro]

I picked Artic for the "frozen finger syndrome" and because of my intense hatred for all that is cold.

[Gordy Wesen]

I think the worst environment for a gunfight would be inside a car.

[goalie]

Between Panama and the Gulf (part 1 in '91) the Gulf was much worse. That sand in Kuwait is finer than you can imagine. I think I was farting sand out of my -ss for a few years after that!!!

[firestar]

I would guess the marine enviornment because you have to find someway to shoot your gun under water without it jamming on you. This is where a Glock would come in handy.:D

[Matt G]

From our armed forces' point of view, it's any urban environ.

[WonderNine]

I still stand by my statement that space is the worst place for a gunfight! :)

[ACP230]

The first place that came to mind was the "no static area" of a black powder production plant.

OUCH!

[Ala Dan]

Howdy Folk's-

I voted for the jungle; as I would rather be cold,
wet or both as opposed to being hot, sweatty and
infested with leeches!:uhoh: :D

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Smoke]

I'm going on the exact opposite of Ala Dan...

I would rather be hot and sweaty than cold any day.

I have no experience fighting in any enviroments. I have no expereince shooting in the desert, above 112 degrees or below 17 degrees. Those are the limits of my extremes.

I HATE cold.

[Horsesense]

The worst environment…. Pure oxygen

I picked cold because in any of the other environments, you can clean and be reasonably sure that you're good to go for a while at least. The cold can ice up things no matter how clean you keep your weapon.

[Hypnogator]

The WORST environment for a gunfight would be in a crowded mall. I could fight in any of the given environments. Would hate to make the choice about how many bystanders would be "collateral damage."

[mephisto]

Bathroom.

[jdkelly]

A marine enviroment, in the artic, wearing jungle fatigues, and desert gloves.

jkelly

[natedog]

A preschool...

[Andrew Wyatt]

space is the perfect enviornment for a gunfight.


no grit and junk to tie up the action, no air to slow down your projectiles....

[Hkmp5sd]

The marine environment that occurs in a marine vessel, aka ship, would be the worst choice for me. Back when I rode submarines, we carried M16A1s and these were issued to "repel boarders" and "nuclear weapons security." Picture an M16 on full auto with 30 rounds of FMJ fired inside a steel people tank.

Of course, this brings to mind one of my favorite machinegun scenes from the movies. In UnderSiege, Segal takes two subguns, one in each hand, crosses his forearms and runs down a passageway firing both weapons. Gotta love Hollywierd.

[gudel]

jungle... like in vietnam.

[Soap]

Anywhere.

[Blain]

Well, looks like artic is holding the lead with marine in close second. So far no one has voted for desert!

[Kharn]

Inside a telephone booth. Unless you're holding a Serbu Super Shorty, Mac10 or Micro Uzi and the other guy is holding an Airsoft.

Kharn

[Blain]

The enviorment inside a phone booth, mall, dweling, etc seems fairly temperate and ideal. Not much hardship on the weapon there!

[JackC]

In my case, the answer would have to be "anywhere except on the computer!!"
Jack

[stevelyn]

I've lived in and worked with firearms in three of the four environments. Never been in the jungle, but there are places I've been that are similar.
The marine environment is by far the worst place to have a gun. The combination of dampness, salt air, rain and wind wreaks havoc on guns and mandates you regularly clean an inspect them. Exposure to salt water requires flushing with warm or hot fresh water drying thoroughly (hot water expedites this) and then clean and lube in the usual manner.
In my experience the arctic and sub-arctic are the least harmful to guns and their operation. The climate although cold is relatively dry with a low average humidity. Yes, if care is not taken a weapon can freeze up. This is usually due to bringing a weapon in from the outside and having moisture condense on it an then taking it back outside before it warms to room temperature and dries. Most folks I know leave their utility guns in a secure area outside of their homes during winter to help minimize this problem. Going light on the lube or using a synthetic will keep guns from malfunctioning due to frozen oil and very light if any on the grease.
I've take my K2 out predator hunting at -20 (any colder, I stay home and throw wood on the fire) slung across my back while riding a snowmachine (snowmobile for you L48ers) and it has still worked when I needed it with snow sticking to the bolt and ejection port.

[10-Ring]

Once you get to miserable, it really doesn't matter the temperature, hot or cold!

[Nightcrawler]

I am however, training to use state of the art equipment. Improved since the days of all these grizzled Nam vets. They have been made to be more weather resistant.

Assuming you're referring to the M16...I don't know who told you the M16 (A1 or A2) is "state of the art". An M16A2 made by FN yesterday isn't any more modern than an M16A2 made by FN 10 years ago. The local ROTC unit here doesn't even have A2s, they have A1s.

I've carried an M16A1 that was so old the receiver was marked "Colt AR-15", putting the manufacture date sometime in the 60's. I think that was probably the only original part left on the rifle, but it's hardly a "new" weapon by any stretch of the imagination.

The worst environment for use of a weapon would probably be desert. Fine, talcum-powder like dust can get into every pore, every nook and cranny, and does so everytime you kick some up (anyone who's ever ridden in the back of a track in a dusty environment can attest to this). Fine grit can be VERY hard on a weapon; it can get in between the moving parts and gum things up pretty bad.

Cleaning can get the grit out, of course. But when you're riding in your track on the way to your engagement area, getting covered in dust from the trip, you're really not in any position to tear your weapon apart and clean it (not to mention dust sticks to wet lubricants like crazy).

The M16, in my experience, does okay in dusty environments, but it's important to keep the dust cover closed, the barrel capped and your magazines covered. The SAW works a little better being a somewhat mechanically simpler design (with a better gas system).

Cold environments (VERY cold artic type environments) present problems all their own. For one, from the human standpoint, operating many weapons with thick gloves on can be difficult. If you don't believe me, buy some thick winter gloves (you folks that live down south, and consider forty degrees and rainy to be winter might have trouble finding them) and see if you can even get your finger in the trigger loop of a typical pistol.

That notwithstanding, very cold environments also require special lubricants that won't freeze, and you have to be constantly trying to keep your firearm dry, as any moisture can freeze.

I would have to say that outer space is the worst environment. The extreme temperatures can't be good for weapons (try from near absolute zero to several hundred degrees), and even a grazing hit anywhere on your body can be big trouble if you're unable to seal the rupture in your space suit...

[Blain]

Yep, the M16 is not the most tolerant or ruged weapon....

[jacketch]

The worst environment would be a LIBERAL one. The bad guys would have guns and you wouldn't!

[Snowdog]

A firefight in space... in a time long ago, in a galaxy far, far away....

Seems a likely explanation of the JFK "magic bullet"; an alien that didn't check his 150 light-year backstop. ;)

[OEF_VET]

Hmmm, tough choices, but I went with the desert. Partly because it hadn't been selected yet, but also because that's where most my experience is at.

What Nightcrawler said about dust getting everywhere is dead on, especially in a freakin sandstorm. He's also right about how tough the cold can be. Having suffered from frostbite, I'm personally not too partial to the cold environments too much anymore.

And the M-16 is state of the art? What decade are we talking about? Most of our allies have already gone to something else (Brits - L85, Germans - G36, French - FAMAS, Australia and Austria - AUG). The only reason they keep the M-16 around is because we stick with it, and they can use us to get spare parts when they deploy somewhere with us. Heck, we even had a competition to replace the M-16 back in the '80's. We're still looking to replace it with the new (state of the art) OICW.

Frank

[moa]

Any environment in which I lose.

[Frohickey]

space is the perfect enviornment for a gunfight.

Nuh-uh. Its very bad to get shot from behind with bullets that you fired from your own gun, as the bullets make its way around the Earth. :D

Gunfight in an active erupting volcano? I think that you will have ammunition cookoff. Better hope your mag well can contain the cookoffs. Better yet. Hope your sunblock can handle high temperatures.

[UnknownSailor]

And the M-16 is state of the art? What decade are we talking about? Most of our allies have already gone to something else (Brits - L85, Germans - G36, French - FAMAS, Australia and Austria - AUG). The only reason they keep the M-16 around is because we stick with it, and they can use us to get spare parts when they deploy somewhere with us. Heck, we even had a competition to replace the M-16 back in the '80's. We're still looking to replace it with the new (state of the art) OICW.

I don't think the average British trooper who came in while the L1A1 was still issued would say that the L85 is an improvement. As far as the OICW goes, even the US Military will never be able to afford to field those on a wide scale. At $34,000 a copy, (instead of $475 for an M-16), don't be suprised if the OICW goes the way of the H&K G11.

My vote for toughest place for a shootout? A 747-400 full of passengers while airborne.

[Sportcat]

In a pit of angry, pregnant, ticked-off rattlesnakes!

[Mizzoutiger]

No, I wasn't talking about the M16 as being state of the art. Although, the we do use the A2s. Those being newer than the originally fielded VietNam era rifles. Those that served in Nam didn't fail because of environmental reasons. Ofcourse, I don't have to tell you this. It's well known that those models had problems with barrel fouling and other mechanical failures. Chroming the bore helped out a lot.

[Blain]

Those that served in Nam didn't fail because of environmental reasons.



Nah, they failed because they were pieces of junk. :D