Marlin .45-70 for deer?


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ETXhiker
December 11, 2006, 09:55 PM
I've wanted a .45-70 for years and my beloved has granted my Christmas wish. Honestly, I mainly want it for the fun of just having one, but it occurs to me that I might want to take it deer hunting next year. Obviously, any factory .45-70 load will take a whitetail, especially the small East Texas variety we see around here. But what about meat damage? Will the big slow bullet cut a large neat hole, or make a big mess? Hard cast lead or jacketed? I've been meaning to get the reloading press out of mothballs, but factory loads seem to cover the gamut pretty well in this caliber. If anyone has any experience in this area, I would appreciate feedback, thanks.

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Sunray
December 11, 2006, 10:31 PM
Most factory .45-70 is loaded down because of all the Trapdoor rifles and carbine out there. Of course, there is factory ammo that is unsafe in one of them. Not exactly inexpensive though.
I doubt you'll have any trouble with meat damage using a lighter than 405 grain jacketed bullet. You're aiming at the rib cage. Mind you, the deer up here can run 2-300 pounds live weight. They're not all that big though. Lots of guys I know use a .45-70 for deer and still get fed for months.

Starter52
December 11, 2006, 10:55 PM
Sunray's right. A 300-350 gr. bullet is all you need for deer. FYI the Remington factory load is popular for whitetail in the Northeast.

mete
December 11, 2006, 11:04 PM
I've used the 45-70 for years now, all with the 300 factory or equivalent.I thought some of the factory ammo opened up too fast so I went to the Win Partition -much better. Even with the most rapidly expanding bullet you'll never get meat damage like the high velocity cartridges such as the 308 etc. BTW Winchester had a load that matched the modern one [ 300gr @ 1850] 100 years ago !!! The Marlin is good for at least 1 1/2" groups .If he ever wants to hunt anything larger he can easily find factory hotter loads .The gun and cartridge are a winning combination !!

Pumpkinheaver
December 11, 2006, 11:17 PM
I handload the 350FP from hornady to about 1950 fps. It wacks deer with authority and does little meat damage. The bullet is a little tougher that the 300s. Another good deer bullet is the 405 remington, I load it to about 1700fps.

mustanger98
December 11, 2006, 11:29 PM
You know, I brag on my .30-30 and lately I've been bragging some about how it did on that buck I killed Thanksgiving evening. That said, that 350gr .45-70's gonna punch a bigger hole through the lungs and they probably get knocked off their feet. One of my shooting buddies was telling me about how he'd been loading his .45-70's and he said it was like the deer got picked up and slammed. That said, put it through the lungs and it shouldn't damage meat. Unless you're big into ribs.

TIMC
December 11, 2006, 11:56 PM
I took a nice pig this year using my 45/70 and 300 grain jhp ammo with a neck shot. There was no major damage but ther was a pretty good size hole. Shot placement has a lot to do with how much damage you do.

Brass Fetcher
December 12, 2006, 12:02 AM
Here is the 300gr Winchester Partition Gold in 45-70 in a block of ballistic gelatin.

The second image is that of a 165gr .308win Ballistic tip. Not saying that anyone is right or wrong, just wanted to post some scandalous pictures of disorganized protein blocks.

Can someone tell me how to include the images in the body of the post?

Thanks,

JE223

JohnKSa
December 12, 2006, 12:19 AM
Even the "downloaded" 45/70 is plenty for deer. It sure did a number on the buffalo...

Nematocyst
December 12, 2006, 05:03 AM
Can someone tell me how to include the images in the body of the post?JE,

Click on a thumbnail. Copy the URL.
Now, click on the image icon (mountain with a moon/sun) on your menu.
Enter the URL into the dialog box. Click OK.

Thanks for the images. The difference between the slower 45/70 & faster .308 is ... educational.

I'm going to buy a 336 in .30-30 (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/centerfire/336C.aspx) first, but that 45/70 (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigbore/1895G.aspx) is very appealing.

Of course, a slug out of my 870 might do the same as a 45/70.

Nem

Brass Fetcher
December 12, 2006, 09:23 AM
Thanks Nematocyst-870. I have been wanting to do that with my gelatin pics since I started on THR, I just never asked around.:o

I'm a big 45-70 fan, too.

dodge
December 12, 2006, 09:34 AM
I just got a doe that weighted about 115-125 lbs. with my Marlin guide gun (45/70) and thou I hit her high in the back just missing the spine, she went down like a rock. I was using my handload that puts the Hornady 350 gr fn at 1800 fps. While she was moving around trying to get back up I had to put another one into her to put her down for good. It impressed me just how quickly she went down with a such a poor shot. I had a friend who hit a buck, as near as we could figger out, in the same place with a 243 and he got away. There's something to be said for a big heavy slow moving slug.

ETXhiker
December 12, 2006, 09:50 AM
Thanks, guys. That's exactly what I was looking for. Sounds like the factory 300 gr. loads do just fine. I'll probably start with them, but I've been looking for an excuse to get into bullet casting for years - this is probably as good a reason as any. Can't wait to receive this lever gun and get it to the range.

phantomak47
December 12, 2006, 01:49 PM
What is your range with the 45/70?

mustanger98
December 12, 2006, 02:09 PM
Sounds like the factory 300 gr. loads do just fine. I'll probably start with them, but I've been looking for an excuse to get into bullet casting for years - this is probably as good a reason as any. Can't wait to receive this lever gun and get it to the range.

I'll have to find the MidwayUSA catalog, but I recall seeing where Lyman makes a .458 mold for a lead Hollowpoint in the 300gr range. It's the exact weight I'm unsure of as it's been a while since I looked.

I sprung some Remington 300gr CoreLokts on my brother-in-law once... 5rds and he was done.:D That was in my H&R Handi-Rifle. I told him that was my "big and dangerous game" rifle.

JustsayMo
December 12, 2006, 03:23 PM
Two seasons ago a pard of mine took his Elk will a 405 gr hard cast bullet pushed by black powder (maybe 1300 fps at the muzzle) in his 45-70 Sharps replica. Busted through both shoulders and exited, and as he would say "is probably still goin..." The Elk stumbled and then expired. Paced off at just under 100 yards.

My big and slow load chugs along at just under 1500 fps. Plows right through over 12" of wind thrown fir. before burying itself in the hillside.

In my limited experience there is a lot less "bloodshot" meat with the big and slow bullets. "You can eat right up to the hole."

SwampWolf
December 12, 2006, 08:40 PM
In the areas I mostly hunt (Pa and Mi), if a deer isn't dispatched on the spot, you stand a good chance of finding someone else's tag on your deer by the time you catch up with it. For this reason, I generally use a little more gun than necessary for whitetails and this includes employing either my Winchester 1886 in 45-70 or my Savage 99 in .358 cal. Hit in a good area with either of these rounds and it's been my experience a deer doesn't go far.

That said, when hit in a good spot they haven't traveled far when I've used my Ruger 77 in .257 Roberts! :confused:

pinetree64
December 13, 2006, 03:36 PM
I've used my Ruger #1 45/70 with great success. I shoot 300g Remington JHP. The last three deer I shot with it had much less meat destruction than those shot with my 30-06 using 150g NBT. I do reload mine hotter than factory but not to the max. I now only use my 30-06 when hunting large clearcuts or pastures.
tjg

mrrick
December 13, 2006, 04:21 PM
405 grain cast bullet at around 1500 fps is deadly, with little meat damage.

Nematocyst
December 13, 2006, 05:25 PM
I've read several posts, at least one in this thread, about the 45/70 being a real mule when it comes to recoil.

Would some of you 45/70 folks kindly offer a rough comparison of felt recoil of a 45/70 (say 300 gr factory load) v. a 12 ga 00 or slug (full load or reduced recoil, your choice, but please specify)?

I understand that such opinions are pretty subjective, and different people react to recoil in different ways. But still, some range of benchmarks would be useful.

Thanks.

Brass Fetcher
December 13, 2006, 05:53 PM
About the same, when fired out of a gun that you would normally carry hunting, etc. I would say the Marlin lever action is about between a 3.0" 00buck and 3.5" buckshot load out of a Mossberg (835?). Nothing to be afraid of, but the recoil will probably require lots of practice and ammo $ to overcome.

Oh yeah, if you want to 'man up' and fire the 45/70 from an unsupported prone position - there is nothing wrong with crying. :)

mustanger98
December 13, 2006, 07:23 PM
Nematocyst-870 I've read several posts, at least one in this thread, about the 45/70 being a real mule when it comes to recoil.

Nemotcyst-870, I've fired several rifles and shotguns of comparable chamberings that either kicked like a mule or didn't... stock fit and the weight of the weapon and other factors all play important parts. Yeah, my .45-70 kicks like a mule, but I know some guys at the range who shoot .45-70's in matches... they load their own ammo (some lighter, some hotter) and they can sit down and shoot 'em all day. But they're shooting heavier rifles than most of us will hunt deer with.

Would some of you 45/70 folks kindly offer a rough comparison of felt recoil of a 45/70 (say 300 gr factory load) v. a 12 ga 00 or slug (full load or reduced recoil, your choice, but please specify)?

My comparison of .45-70 with 12guage 00 (standard Winchester 2 3/4") from an 870 Wingmaster... the .45-70 HandiRifle kicks a lot harder. However, I shot this .45/70 across the bench and the 12guage from standing. The 12guage didn't faze me. I imagine the HandiRifle in .45/70 also doesn't kick as hard from standing as recoil seems to generally be harder across the bench.

I understand that such opinions are pretty subjective, and different people react to recoil in different ways. But still, some range of benchmarks would be useful.

I'm not sure this range of benchmarks is all the useful. And I'm somewhat an oddity for this because I'm an arthritic with a fused back and both hips replaced. I do most of my hunting with a .30-30Winchester levergun which is a whole 'nuther story.

Oh yeah, if you want to 'man up' and fire the 45/70 from an unsupported prone position - there is nothing wrong with crying.:)

I know; I see the smiley. Thing is, from my perspective, nobody in his right mind is gonna fire a .45/70 with factory 300gr or 405gr JSP from prone. Can anybody say "broken collarbone"? Yeah, that'll give somebody something to cry about.:uhoh:

torpid
December 13, 2006, 07:44 PM
Nematocyst-870:

I can fire my Marlin 1895g with 300-405gr factory loads all day no problem, but I did swap out the rock hard stock Marlin recoil "pad" for one that absorbs recoil. In addition I added a buttstock cartridge carrier that seems to mellow it further.

Firing Garrett's 540gr +P Hammerheads is a different story, but I bet you've felt comparable recoil with your beloved 870 many times over from higher power loads.

I have yet to fire anything out of my Marlin that compares to a 12 gauge 3" magnum slug through my synthetic stocked aluminum Mossberg (which seems very light compared to my old 870, yet is still heavier than my Marlin).

In my opinion the .45-70 is overall a hell of a lot mellower that many others had led me to believe (but that usually has been the case regarding other folk's recoil opinions in my experience). I guess it seems "muley" if you are coming from a 30/30, but IMO it's just punchy enough to be fun!

Now you must get one. :evil:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=48470&d=1164524426

ETXhiker
December 13, 2006, 08:49 PM
Firing Garrett's 540gr +P Hammerheads is a different story, but I bet you've felt comparable recoil with your beloved 870 many times over from higher power loads.


:D No kidding. My Mossberg 500 with 3" slugs is a handfull, but I can't wait to try either the big Garrett or Buffalo bore stuff in .45-70. I've been shooting my buddy's Win. model 70 .375 H&H for years. Now I have something to wipe that smile off his face. :evil:

dmftoy1
December 13, 2006, 09:06 PM
With factory loads for a "modern" 45/70 loads (jacketed hollowpoints, etc.) I think the kick is fairly close to slugs in a 12 gauge . . .with "Cowboy" loads (say 1200-1300 fps - 350 grain Slug) I don't think there's much kick at all. (I can shoot it until I run out of ammo). (this is in an 1895 with a 22 inch Octagon barrel)

I wouldn't even hesitate to shoot a deer with the cowboy loads at the distances I'm capable of shooting (less than 100 yards with irons). There are alot of combinations that have ALOT less power at that range and that people view as perfectly adequate.

FWIW.

Have a good one,
Dave

Chuck Perry
December 14, 2006, 12:22 AM
torpid, what make is that buttstock cartridge carrier? Very nice!

torpid
December 14, 2006, 12:29 AM
torpid, what make is that buttstock cartridge carrier? Very nice!

Levergun Leather Works (http://www.levergunleather.com) - Great work, and the owner ("Lever") is cool too. :)

JohnKSa
December 14, 2006, 01:13 AM
So putting the cartridge carrier/cover over the custom recoil pad didn't cancel the effects of the recoil pad?

torpid
December 14, 2006, 01:26 AM
So putting the cartridge carrier/cover over the custom recoil pad didn't cancel the effects of the recoil pad?

No, instead the flat leather butt actually spreads the "push" over a wider area (think of a hand blade karate chop replaced with a palm shove).

Look at the above pic and it'll be clearer than my words. :)

All in all, it's a mellow shootin' little big bore! :D

torpid
December 14, 2006, 01:36 AM
Here's a pic with cartridges in the loops.
(please pardon the blasphemous red dot scope) ;)

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=49295&d=1166074485

Nematocyst
December 14, 2006, 04:04 AM
Thanks for the opinions on recoil, folks. Very informative.

Torpid, that's one fine looking rifle (red dot or not).

Da'um.

Nematocyst
December 14, 2006, 05:39 AM
I dream of a 45/70 guide gun (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigbore/1895G.aspx) with an 18.5" barrel wtih a pistol grip for 336 (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/centerfire/336C.aspx)/870 (http://www.remingtonle.com/shotguns/870synthetic.htm) fans.

cpileri
December 14, 2006, 07:28 AM
About the hotter loads available...

Just to add a piece of info, the Buffalo Bore 405gr JFN load @ 2000fps is what you might call a 'highly convenient' loading for the Marlin Guide Gun, as its ballistics match it well. What i mean is:

With IRON sights, the 405gr JFN @2000fps loading gives a peak trajectory of +2inches at 79 yds and a far zero at exactly 100yds. The fact that 2 out of 2 Marlin GG's I have fired (one 45-70 and one 450 Marlin) have both had the iron sights EXACTLY dialed in at 100 yds to the point of making a clover leaf bullseye RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX, made the whole experience so pleasant!(*)

To me and my thinking (FWIW) 100yds is about as far as I'd shoot with a 45-70 and iron sights, and at that range a nice 2-inch 'battle sight zero' means I just point and shoot at anything in range and be happy forever.

Just my thoughts.

(*) what I mean is: 1. take Marlin GG out of the box, clean as usual. 2. load with Buffalo Bore 405gr JFN, 3. Aim at any target out to 100yds 4. fire all shots exactly where the iron sights are lined up on 5. go home with big smile on your face. It doesnt get much better than that!

Hope that helps you decide to get one!

C-

JohnKSa
December 14, 2006, 05:14 PM
No, instead the flat leather butt actually spreads the "push" over a wider area...Darn--that's something else I need... :D

fitoo1
December 14, 2006, 05:46 PM
OH yes...Ive dreamnt of that Guide Gun myself for a long time. That .45-70 round is so versitile. I have a contender chambered in that round...it not as bad as one would think, what with the muzzlebrake and handloads.

I load them with a 300 gr bullet at about 1300 fps, which really isnt pushing it to hard...thats about the same energy range as say a .44 mag loaded with a 240 gr bullet. They dont get and deader when you connect.

Hornady is making that LEVERevolution in .45-70. I dont know what bullet wieght. I know that in my .30-30...it made a huge difference ballistically. I had it zeroed with 170 gr soft point bonded core remington factory ammo printing two inches high at 100 yds. The LR, in 160 grains printed 14" high at 100 yards!!!!!

If the .45-70 offering performs anything like the .30-30 offering does..I'd highly recommend it.

panzer426
April 14, 2007, 10:35 PM
How does the 1895 Cowboy compare to the Guide Gun? Does the longer barrel on the Cowboy increase accuracy or decrease recoil at all?

achildofthesky
April 14, 2007, 11:44 PM
I darn near psyched myself out while waiting on getting my 16" WWG CoPilot 45/70-457 WWG. I had visions of MASSIVE recoil and becoming a flinch-o-matic shooter. I initially did my sighting in/break in with Leverevolution 45/70's. They seem to move out pretty well and the bullet is a 325 grain pointy deal.

The actual recoil was no where near what I envisioned. I am not too recoil sensitive and have spent extended sessions banging away with '06's and 338WM's both at the range and on varmints. That Hornady ammo I shot would be fine for anything I'd likely hunt outside maybe a once in a lifetime Gizzy Bar hunt should I be so fortunate. It is pretty easy to find and not outragously expensive around these parts.

Yep, the 16" unported Marlin XLR based gun lets you know you squeezed one off but nothing that is near what I would call punishing. I understand that some of the Buffalo Bore and the like hardcast heavy hitters would change the equation a good deal but the gun fits and it does wear a decelerator pad. I have a box of the propriety 457 WWG mag loads but have not had a chance to send a few down range. I bought 100 nickle plated remington cases, a bunch of 300 grain Rem bullets to play with and also have 2 boxes of the Leverevolution stuff (1+ box fired) so I have a bit of fodder to reload when the mood strikes.

I am thinking of culling a few guns down to put the $$ into other projects but will always have the 45/70. Very versatile and the takedown feature of this gun makes it a super handy, easy to pack length and I think my go to gun for general hunting, hiking or whatever. Load it up or mellow it out for average to largeish game, I am sold on the 45/70. There are lots of other calibers that appeal to many, but I am thinking getting to know this gun better and becoming a "master" (as much as I can) of one may be better for me than just average with many.

I will keep my Marlin 1894 ltd edition 357, my family hand me down '06, a nice winchester saddle ring trapper 30-30 just because, and the 45/70 and sell another Marlin 1894 ltd edition in 44 mag and a remington M700 bdl ss in 338wm. Find a decent .22 and shotty and call it plenty for me at this point in my life.

Patty

Nematocyst
April 15, 2007, 01:27 AM
Nice to see this thread up and shooting again.

I keep drifting back to think about an 1895G.

Won't get one for a while - Alaska is still a ways off for me.

But darn, I sure hope to own one someday...

bclark1
April 15, 2007, 01:29 AM
just to chime in, i don't feel like the 1895G, unported, beats me up much more than a 30-06. like the gun a lot.

bpsig
April 15, 2007, 06:34 AM
i have both a guide gun with porting and the cowboy special . The guide gun is the heavy weight of the two. With a nikon 1-4 power scope on a scout mount its ideal for up to 200 yds if you aim upv:D
The longer barrel cowboy is like shooting a loud 22 lr with 405 grain lead in it. however step up to the 300 grain and better have a large recoil pad. the guide gun shoots left about 6 inches with the new hornady loads, dead on with the 300 or 405 loads. Haven't tried the lever loads in the cowboy yet . I love both and used to use the guide gun as my trunk carry. the flame out of ports at night will make anyone gut check and light a cigarette of someone standing to your sides. I got one after witnessing one used on a pit bull sent to attack a local deputy by bikers. real quick in ending that noise and blast stupified biker also but thats something for you to insert answer to.
I have used it for just about everything, and started reloading. but if you get one of either buy a recoil pad and a good sling.

JustsayMo
April 15, 2007, 11:44 AM
I have the 1895G (ported) the 1895GS (unported) and the 1895 Cowboy.

Recoil difference is subtle and undetectable in the guide guns at velocities under <2000 fps. The longer Cowboy barrelled 1895 has less muzzel rise and more straight back recoil than the GG. Not punishing by any means. Slower shove than my 30-06 which feels quick and snappy to me.

Three of my four 1895's came to me because the previous owner didn't like the recoil. I was concerned at first but now I'm addicted to it. It doesn't hurt and it didn't take long before I quit thinking about it while shooting.

Nematocyst
April 15, 2007, 05:02 PM
The longer barrel cowboy is like shooting a loud 22 lr with 405 grain lead in it. however step up to the 300 grain and better have a large recoil pad.OK, I guess I need some education here.

You're saying the 300 gr. produces more recoil than the 405?

Interesting. That seems counterintuitive. I would have expected the converse.

But I guess it's like the stiffer 125 gr rnds (which I haven't tried yet) from my .357 mag producing more recoil than, say, a 158 gr.

Is this due to f=ma (that is, because the 300's have higher velocity), or are the 300 gr loaded hotter, or both?

Sorry for my naivety, but I'm still in training when it come to ... well, everything.

Nem

wanderinwalker
April 15, 2007, 05:26 PM
Nematocyst,

The factory and cowboy type 405 gr loads DO kick less than factory 300s. I can't explain it other than the slower speed and it's really more of a push, while the 300s have more of a sharper hit (still not terrible IMO).

My .45-70 is a T/C Encore Katahdin, unported, 20" barrel. You get mega muzzle flash and quite the crack out of this bad boy. It shoves one back pretty good too, but far from unbearable. I confess though, it IS a 10-shots in a trip rifle for me. It only weighs a little over 6 pounds and a yardstick has room to spare when measuring it. Surprisingly accurate too! My prefered load so far is a light dose of RL-7 behind a Remington 300gr SJHP. I might go to a 405 for an "all-around" load though.

Compared to this, a "moderate" 405 load in an H&R Buffalo Rifle feels like a powder puff and a Marlin Guide Gun seems like a rapid-fire rifle. :evil:

Sorry for the poor picture quality:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/P-990/HuntingRifles002.jpg

Edited: That's an 18" ruler in the top of the pic, with a .45-70 dummy shell.

Nematocyst
April 15, 2007, 06:00 PM
wanderinwalker, thanks for that explanation. I'm beginning to "get it", to put things into perspective. Thanks for using the 1895G as one of your examples.

That T/C Encore Katahdin is a fine looking rifle. I confess, I've explored them a bit. If I eventually get a .45-70, I'll probably go with a Marlin since both my other rifles are Marlin levers, and I like the familiarity.

Also, relative to this:

It shoves one back pretty good too, but far from unbearable.What is your approximate weight?

I'm asking because I'm a small guy. (Tall but thin, somewhere around 140.)
So, for example, if you are 190 and it "shoves you back",
then for me at 140 it could knock me on my 4$$. :D

Of course, I'll eventually try one out at the range, but just curious for now,
trying to develop a mindset of what to expect.

wanderinwalker
April 15, 2007, 07:12 PM
I'm just below average height and just a hair heavier than you (150) and in good shape. I can go all day with a 1903 or M-1 Garand .30-06 but find the 12ga shotgun with slugs intolerable. Actually, a .300 Magnum feels worse than the .45-70 IMO, but it hits faster and sharper at the shooter's end. And the other barrel is a .50-caliber muzzleloader, which is just barely milder than a .45-70 when using 100-gr/240-250gr sabot loads.

Dr.Rob
April 15, 2007, 08:41 PM
I had to look back at previously posted material, but to ME, the long barreled1895CB without a recoil pad kicked a lot harder with Remington factory 405's than 300's. The 1895 LTD with the curved steel buttplate will punish you if you are faint of heart. The 1895GG (ported) isn't exactly a pussycat to shoot but it's no where near the recoil of a 20 inch 12 ga. 870 shooting 2 3/4 1 oz max slugs with a factory recoil pad.

The 1895CB is a LONG barreled rifle and totally loaded weighs a bunch, is front heavy and far more suited to say, shooting buffalo off sticks than carrying around in the woods chasing deer elk and bear.

As for effectiveness on deer, any factory 45/70 load will do the job, even a mild 'cowboy load'. For elk you might want the penetration of the 405 or a hardcast.

Most factory loads are low (under 2000fps) velocity, you shouldn't see a lot of bloodshot meat if you place a bullet behind the shoulder. Also, even with a relatively thin jacket in the Remington loads, they tend to stay in one piece. Even if you shoot through a shoulder, you won't get the high velocity secondary projectlies (bone fragments) that you'd get with say, a 30 cal 180 gr bullet at over 2800 fps.

Nem, I've seen a number of kids shoot the guide guns (ported and otherwise) with 300 gr bullets and nobody ran home crying. The recoil pad makes a big difference.

Nematocyst
April 15, 2007, 09:06 PM
Thanks, guys. That's useful information.

I'm going to look around for some one who has one and give it a test spin in the next month or two.

By the way, speaking of rnds: what do folks in Alaska most commonly carry in them for griz protection? I'm guessing the larger rnds, but ...

Nem

Nematocyst
April 18, 2007, 01:11 AM
I just posted this in another thread (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3306040&posted=1#post3306040).

I handled an 1895G in .45-70 today for the first time at BiMart.

I've seen them before on the racks from a distance, and have been reading a LOT about them. But today was the first one I handled.

I was astounded at how good it felt. Astounded. The balance and quickness to point is ... well, beyond words. Even significantly faster than my 870. Makes me once again want to lop off a couple of inches of barrel off my 336A.

I have little doubt I'll get one sooner or later.

Just seems to be in my cards ...

torpid
April 18, 2007, 02:05 AM
Hee... nudging you step by step.
:D

torpid
April 18, 2007, 02:09 AM
Seriously, since I got mine, it's been my hands-down favorite gun.

wolfdog1
April 18, 2007, 02:40 AM
I have a 1895G with ports I put a limbsaver pad on it i really like it works good on Michigan whitetails with any factory 300 HP The recoil wasnt bad I put the pad on for hotter reloads but the regular loads worked so well I never made any

Nematocyst
April 18, 2007, 02:43 AM
Welcome to THR, Wolf.

Hee... nudging you step by step. :D Keep it up, please.

It's working. ;)

arctictom
April 19, 2007, 09:27 PM
The 45-70 is a wonderful deer round , heavy slow and does very little damage to the meat. And it doubles as an excellent weapon against brown bears.

Nematocyst
April 20, 2007, 04:42 AM
Arctictom,

I see your location is listed as Fbks AK.

But I was told recently that deer weren't found in interior AK.

Was that photo taken elsewhere, or has their range expanded?

Also, what .45-70 rnd did you use to take it?

Nem

JShirley
April 20, 2007, 06:00 AM
I had an 1895G, which I liked enough that I also got the 20" version (though I sold it, along with most of my rifles, when I joined the Army in '01).

I used the Georgia Arm 300 grain HP. It was a vigorous shove, but not painful- perhaps slightly more than shooting Remington Reduced Recoil slugs in my Mossy 500.

I only shot one small buck with it, at about 40 meters. Performance was dramatic, but not excessive. :) The deer fell, kicked for a few seconds, and was still. There was little spoiled meat.

J

Nematocyst
April 20, 2007, 05:42 PM
I used the Georgia Arm 300 grain HP. It was a vigorous shove, but not painful- perhaps slightly more than shooting Remington Reduced Recoil slugs in my Mossy 500.Thanks, J.

That's another good benchmark for me in terms of understanding the recoil issue.
It's sounding quite manageable.

Did your 1895G have a decelerator pad on it? The new ones in production now do.

Nem

arctictom
April 20, 2007, 06:54 PM
Nematocyst-870


I have a place in Peliican Alaska , summers( fishing hanging out) and fall ( hunting ) I spend the rest of the time in Fairbanks. The pic is My son and Self ,
I use a 300 grain JHP Remington , and when the dear is down , I load 540 gr Garret solids, for growlers.

torpid
April 20, 2007, 07:14 PM
That's another good benchmark for me in terms of understanding the recoil issue.
It's sounding quite manageable.

Did your 1895G have a decelerator pad on it? The new ones in production now do.

In my opinion recoil is really not a big issue with the guide gun at all once the decelerator pad is on (especially if you're used to shooting slugs with your 870 12 gauge).

I got my Marlin last year and it had the hard Marlin stock recoil pad.
I put the decelerator on it and no worries- the leather buttstock cartridge carrier that I added over it really serves to spread that out even more and makes it a dream to shoot. :D

Here an article you've probably already seen:
http://www.realguns.com/archives/052.htm

A quote:
"It looks good, but more importantly is feels really good when shooting...

...I think the pad resolved most of the short pull problem, the new pad is approximately 3/8" longer than the factory piece, but it really dampens recoil to the point I don't mind shooting heavy loads out of the gun at all."

dogngun
April 20, 2007, 09:02 PM
I used a Marlin 45-70 with a Williams FP sight to shoot groundhogs back around 1980.
Used a 300grain Hornady as my "varmint" bullet.
Stops 'em right in their tracks.



(It's very good practice for deer season, too.)

Mark

Nematocyst
April 20, 2007, 10:58 PM
A'Tom, thanks for clarifying location of deer kill in Pelican.

Torpid, that's a great page. Very informative.

Makes me not want to shoot hotter loads in a .45-70, even if the 300's sound fine. :uhoh:

torpid
April 21, 2007, 02:00 AM
Nem- (if I may call you Nem):)

I've fired Garrett's +P 540 grain Hammerheads with no dramas.
Like I said, if you can handle your 870, you're fine.

If anything it's not the recoil so much as the hardness of the buttstock, so soften that up and it's all grins! :D

Nematocyst
April 21, 2007, 02:19 AM
Nem- (if I may call you Nem)Yes, please.

Response to PM inbound ... :cool:

I've fired Garrett's +P 540 grain Hammerheads with no dramas.And remind me, please, of your body weight...

I'm ~140 ...

JohnKSa
April 21, 2007, 02:54 AM
And remind me, please, of your body weight...

I'm ~140 ...I've thought about this for some time and it seems to me that while the recoil will move a smaller person around a bit more, they're likely to feel it less.

A heavy person has more inertia and therefore tends to absorb more of the recoil and move less. A light person should tend to move more and absorb less recoil.

Like shooting from a bench magnifies recoil compared to shooting offhand because you can't move while seated at a bench and therefore absorb all of the recoil.

Thoughts?

Nematocyst
April 21, 2007, 03:06 AM
A light person should tend to move more and absorb less recoil.Interesting hypothesis.

Seems it would work best with those of us who are ... um, flexible.

I'm reading ...

HGUNHNTR
April 21, 2007, 04:26 PM
The 45-70 will do a fine job............shoot them in the head and you can eliminate the meat damage problem;)

Nematocyst
April 22, 2007, 02:55 AM
Found a couple of older pages relevant to this discussion.

Here's one on THR from a few years back about recoil in .45-70. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=480)

Here is Chuck Hawk's recoil table essay. (http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm)

Cartridge ------------ Rifle Wt -- Recoil energy -- Recoil velocity

.45-70 (300 at 1800) ---- 7.0 -------- 23.9 ------------ 14.8
.45-70 (350 at 1900) ---- 7.0 -------- 37.9 ------------ 18.7
.45-70 (405 at 1330) ---- 7.5 -------- 18.7 ------------ 12.7The 300's and 405's look manageable, but I may stay away from the 350's. :uhoh:

Nematocyst
April 28, 2007, 07:34 AM
After all,
it's Friday night.

Well, OK, Saturday morning,
but in any case,
it's a nice day to discuss ...

.45-70.

Bigga
bada
boom. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milla_Jovovich)

:D

Working Man
April 28, 2007, 09:18 AM
I really like that buttstock cartridge carrier torpid has. That company looks
like they do great work.

Nematocyst-870, even if you are not going to use it anytime soon I would
advise buying one if you find it at a good price. Around here it is feast or
famine for the 1895GS.

SwampWolf
April 28, 2007, 03:06 PM
Though they're a little pricey (I paid a little over $700.00 a couple of years ago), I'd recommend looking for a Winchester 1886 "Extra Light Weight" repo (made by Miruko) if you're after a 45-70 for deer (or most anything else for that matter). The 1886 (and its son, the Model 71) have absolutely the smoothest operating lever-action ever. And this version of the 1886 handles superbly, albeit with a fairly stiff backlash.

Nematocyst
April 29, 2007, 02:31 AM
Went to the gun store today to buy 100 rnds of .38 for the range tomorrow.

While there, I handled, er, fondled an 1895G ... again.

It's next on the list.

JustsayMo
April 29, 2007, 10:00 AM
Nem,
Once you go big bore, there ain't no goin' back. It will take the biggest bite out of your ammo budget, your other rifles will spend more time in the safe and you'll wonder why you even need a skinny bullet rifle.

Worse yet is there are a lot of us enablers that are overly passionate about rifles that produce large diameter holes. You'll get no peace at the range as the GG attracts a lot of attention. You too will soon be recruiting others to the fold. You'll buy reloading and casting equipment to stretch your ammo budget. Brass will be more valuable to you than gold. You'll have a silly grin and a sore shoulder for days after each session.

You've been warned

Nematocyst
April 29, 2007, 05:34 PM
You've been warnedAnd articulately so, with soul.

But not dissuaded (as wasn't your goal, anyway ... just the opposite).

You want to hear the funny/sad thing about this? I've been having heretical thoughts about this question since yesterday: if (OK, no, when) I indeed get a '95G (1895G, that is, but I've already started abbreviating its model number), do I really need my 870P 12 ga?

<Warning: extreme rationalization ahead. I don't really believe any of it yet, just asking some appropriate questions that need answers before I make a deicision.>

Honestly, I bought my 870P as primarily (far and away) an SD/HD long gun for camp and studio. Looking for a shotgun for SD/HD purposes is literally what brought me to THR. It was the first long gun I'd owned in 20 years.

Originally, I thought I would also use it for deer (with slugs), but on more research, decided that I wanted more range (and better accuracy) than a 12 ga with slugs would offer, so bought my 336 in .30-30 for that task. Now, I'm looking at the GG because its action is identical to both my 336 and my 39A.

So is there really any need for me to keep a 12 ga if I've got a '95G in my circumstances?

As some of you know, I'm working on a minimalist toolkit of long guns and hand guns to meet my needs of hunting and SD (against large, toothy critters up north and human intruders) in my semi-nomadic lifestyle. A '95G replacing the 870P would mean one less gun to tote around, one less action to deal with (I'd be all lever- and wheel-guns then), and one less gun to practice and become proficient with. I can tote more ammo with the .45-70 than with the 12. And I could use the funds from sale of the 12 ga to pick up a '95G.

</end extreme rationalization>

Of course, the argument can (will?) be made that I "need a shotgun", that "no toolkit is complete without a shotgun", and - trivially - my user name would no longer be accurate if I didn't have my 870. :rolleyes:

Hmm. I suspect I'm going to read a few opinions in this thread on this topic, so I'll just sit back for a while and read while you folks try to talk me out of this madness. :scrutiny:

Nem

PS: I realize that this question is potentially taking the thread in a new direction. If mods or OP suggest it, I'll take this new version of the question to a new thread.

torpid
April 29, 2007, 05:48 PM
Nem, do you still enjoy your 870, and are you comfortable shooting it?
Do you envision having a storage/travel space for it in your future nomadic plans?

If you can answer yes, then keep it.
You've already broken it in, and its just gonna get smoother for you as time goes on, and it's an "old friend' you've praised many times here.

Either way, shoot a guide gun a couple of times before you decide on selling your 870.

If it helps to share, my guide gun is my favorite gun, but I still have 2 shotguns.
I like choices. :D

Nematocyst
April 29, 2007, 06:44 PM
Torpid, good points all. Thanks for adding a dash of rationality to the pot.

I'm reading ...

SwampWolf
April 29, 2007, 07:02 PM
It's not rationality, it's rationalization that's at work here! A word of warning to the uninitiated: the worst "deals/decisions" you'll ever make when it comes to firearm transactions is when you rationalize giving up one gun so that you can "afford" the latest gleam in your eye. Oh, we can drudge up many reasons to dump the gun that we spent so much time debating over and researching- even setting up website clubs (:) ) for.

Don't do it, Nem! Keep the 870 and wrestle up some patience for the 45-70 acquisition. At the risk of sounding very presumptuous, someday you'll thank me for this bit of advice should you follow it. Been there, done that (way too many times!).

Nematocyst
April 29, 2007, 07:07 PM
Nem, do you still enjoy your 870, and are you comfortable shooting it?
Do you envision having a storage/travel space for it in your future nomadic plans?Good questions, Torpid. They've stimulated a stream of thought in this process. (Thanks.)

Second question first: Yes, at least I hope so. I have reasonable transporter options (including diesel pickup for the tow vehicle). Space is limited, but keeping the 870 is not limiting in that regard.

First question is more relevant, I think. Two components: 1) I rarely shoot the 870. (Guess that says something.) In fact, given the amount of time I've owned it, I've shot it way too few times relative to what I wanted and needed to. (It's an issue of work and time for me. I just get too little time to shoot it, and have to drive a LONG way to do so. Of course, if my post count read "1000" instead of 4100+, I'd have shot it more. :rolleyes:

2) I think the reason I keep it is hoping to make more time, and the fact that it's just a biga bada boom, and I feel better at night knowing it's just an arms-length away. (Especially given the neighborhood I'm in at night.)

But truth be told, given my limited range time, and my goal to be very proficient with a few weapons rather than less proficient with more, these days I'm definitely putting more time and effort into my levers and wheels. While I realize and respect the great utility of shotguns, I'm resonating more now with the idea of a single projectile well positioned than several projectiles scattering into a pattern. Something in the former that just fits my philosophy of life. (Wow: There's an entire thread just in those last two sentences alone.)

And the tactics are different for the two strategies: point and scatter a pattern v. "aim" (well, point more carefully) for more accurate shot placement. My shotgun requires a different mindset than my rifles.

Finally, my eyes are getting older, I am - like most people my age ('50-something) - already experiencing some natural retinal detachment (seen as occasional flashes of light in one's visual field). That 12 ga ain't helping that any. Of course, neither would a .45-70, but: 1) I'd shoot mostly light rnds in it, and 2) in terms of minimizing jarring that can negatively affect eye health, better only 1 biga bada boom rather than two.

OK, enough thinking for now. My mind is starting to hurt. But it's useful for me to write out loud here in the presence of good minds who won't let any poor thinking slip through. ;)

OK, I'm off to lunch, and to look at some good-sized (6-7" blade) survival knife options.

Thanks for opinions.

And ETXhiker, thanks for a GREAT thread!

Nematocyst
April 29, 2007, 07:09 PM
<Swampwolf grabs Nem firmly by the lapel and pleads with a friend
who may be about to make a serious mistake ... :uhoh: >

Don't do it, Nem! Keep the 870 and wrestle up some patience for the 45-70 acquisition. At the risk of sounding very presumptuous, someday you'll thank me for this bit of advice should you follow it.:D

Like I said, nice to have some good rational minds around ... ;)

JohnKSa
April 29, 2007, 08:18 PM
I am - like most people my age ('50-something) - already experiencing some natural retinal detachment (seen as occasional flashes of light in one's visual field).Been to an ophthalmalogist lately? Probably worth the trip. Flashes of light can also be a symptom of glaucoma which is not only very treatable but also dangerous to ignore.

Nematocyst
April 29, 2007, 08:25 PM
John, yes, I get regular checkups.

The diagnosis I offered above was not based on just my personal knowledge (although I have taught a lot of A&P classes), but the diagnosis of an ophthalmologist. This sort of thing runs in my family, so I've been monitoring my own eye health for decades.

(I left this post here rather than PM it because recoil issues - especially larger calibers and gauges - and eye health are a topic that deserves attention and occasional prodding in the community...)

CZguy
April 29, 2007, 11:51 PM
It's not rationality, it's rationalization that's at work here! A word of warning to the uninitiated: the worst "deals/decisions" you'll ever make when it comes to firearm transactions is when you rationalize giving up one gun so that you can "afford" the latest gleam in your eye. Oh, we can drudge up many reasons to dump the gun that we spent so much time debating over and researching- even setting up website clubs ( ) for.

Don't do it, Nem! Keep the 870 and wrestle up some patience for the 45-70 acquisition. At the risk of sounding very presumptuous, someday you'll thank me for this bit of advice should you follow it. Been there, done that (way too many times!).

Outstanding advice, that has been my experience as well. +1.

JustsayMo
April 30, 2007, 12:10 AM
Nem, this is your enabler... Mo says, Remington 870's are EVERYWHERE and inexpensive (great value). Heck you probably have a half dozen friends within walking distance that would loan you one should you need to do some wingshooting, bust some clays or... Perhaps the most ubiquitous of all non-rimfire guns. Ask yourself what niche does it fill? Why own when you can borrow? <grin>

SD: inside your home the S&W will serve you well (better?) and you can practice inexpensively and frequently if you get a 22lr version. Out on the street the wheelgun wins again as you are more likely to have it with you and you can move without others knowing you're armed. Battle your way back to the long gun...

Now if you don't get a lot of handgun practice then a shotgun makes a lot of sense. Simple, reliable, effective and hits are more likely at targets inside of 30 yards.

In a SHTF scenario range is your friend and the 336 would be superior.

The 1895G would certainly be great for any armored attacker. Bears with the right ammo. Two legged aggressors would learn the difference between cover and concealment quickly...

Foraging: NO doubt the shotgun has the edge with the wide variety of ammo available and it's capable of taking quail and squirrels to big game at modest ranges. If your trigger time is limited the 870 is more user friendly too.

However, getting some inexpensive trigger time with the 39 it will improve your overal marksmanship and familiarity with your long gun platform. The 39 will cover small game including waterfowl in the unsporting fashion. It can be used with quieter subsonic ammo and draw less attention while survival poaching.

Handloads make the 336 into an even more versatile a small to medium big game meat maker. Except for loading it shares the (excellent) handling characteristics of the 39. Repetitions lead to muscle memory and skill will improve.

The GG is a deer+ game getter supreme. If I were you... I would consider getting the standard 1895 and shortening the barrel to retain the PG configuration you are comfortable with. A friend did that at the club and it turned out excellent. Marlin made and "Outfitter" around 2001 in 444 with the short barrel and pistol grip. I've not seen one except in the catalogs (want one though...). The GG is accurate enough to take headshots on smaller game if need be.

Heck, I could go on and on, but it really is simple... Get the 1895, keep the 870 if you can afford to. There is no wrong answer here regardless of staying pat or doing the ol' switcheroo.

Nematocyst
April 30, 2007, 12:47 AM
I would consider getting the standard 1895
and shortening the barrel to retain the PG configuration you are comfortable with. Mo, you're a genius.

In addition to all the other tasty food for thought,
(so much of which I resonate with ... we seem to live on the same page),
that recommendation just hit the spot.

I never even noticed that the standard '895 has a pistol grip (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895.aspx).

Bingo! Cut that puppy down ... just like I plan to do with the 39.

We'll see what the financial winds bring in the next couple of months,
and whether the 870 stays or ... goes ... :scrutiny:

JustsayMo
April 30, 2007, 12:49 AM
Another advantage of the standard is they are usually less expensive...

Nematocyst
April 30, 2007, 12:52 AM
Which is a bit surprising considering more barrel and pistol grip.

But I'm guessing the GG is more in demand, which drives pricing ...

Nematocyst
May 2, 2007, 03:58 AM
First hard rain
in months
is now falling
on my roof.

(Unusual for our rainy season.)

For some reason,
I'm thinking about .45-70.

Nem-870

{Biga badda boom} (http://www.wurli.com/wurli/images/leeloo/5thleelooonledgeclose.jpg)

It's a hard rain a-gonna fall... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hard_Rain's_a-Gonna_Fall)

Nematocyst
May 5, 2007, 05:54 AM
Don't do it, Nem! Keep the 870 and wrestle up some patience for the 45-70 acquisition. OK, you convinced me.

I won't (can't) sell the 870P,
but will add an '895 in .45-70.

SwampWolf
May 5, 2007, 07:37 PM
Whew!

Kimber1911_06238
May 5, 2007, 07:45 PM
300 or 405 grain bullets work great on whitetails...and you won't get the damage of magnums. give it a try :)

tube_ee
May 5, 2007, 08:37 PM
Keep your 870, or, if shooting 12 bore is getting hard on you, trade it for a smaller-bore pump gun. Maybe an Ithaca 37 in 16 gauge? I love the 16. Or, for ease of gun and ammo finding, any one of the many 20-gauge pump guns. There are too many fun things that can only be done with a shotgun to be without one. Try pass-shooting doves with your 45-70, eh?

In the larger sense, guns are like bicycles and motorcycles. If you don't absolutely hate it, you'll regret selling it.

So... do you hate your 870?

--Shannon

mustanger98
May 5, 2007, 08:51 PM
Hey Shannon, I don't think Nem would have included 870 in his screen name if he hated it.:D

Nematocyst
May 5, 2007, 09:30 PM
Try pass-shooting doves with your 45-70, eh?:D

You folks are funny. :)

And informative. Good ideas. Good advice.

Nem, at work on yet another saturday ...
(this will pay off, this will pay off ... i will be able to buy a 45-70 ...)

Buckskinner
May 6, 2007, 03:11 AM
I'll chime in with my .45-70 love story. I had one from '73 or so. Nice enough rifle. I got my dies set up, and shot a variety of bullet weights, and had fun experimenting with recoil. From a mild push (similar to blackpowder) to a real good shove (that'd be the G-G-Garrett's), you can load for and buy over the counter a wide range of .45 calber thumpers.

I sold that one, and missed it so bad, I paid through the nose to buy a '95 that had been "Alaska-ized". Meaning that it had been all Robared, and NP3'd. Had bedliner painted on the stocks. A scout mount, big loop lever, ghost ring sights, Leupold LER scope w/QR rings, hammer spur, extractor put on it.

Oooh its cool!

I have a "low center of gravity", and some of my teachers have confirmed that I am "dense" or "thick", while my wife calls me "muscular". Anyway I'm about 210, and 5'10", and she's a good woman...

There are folks on the web, like at marlinowners.com or levergunlovers.com who really push the reloading to its limits. And they have some cool ideas like:

-Loading lead round ball over a very small charge of pistol powder for a small game load.

-Loading .45-70 brass like a small shotshell.

-Rechambering the .45-70 so .410 shotgun shells will cycle.

I haven't tried any of these myself, but sure seems to expand the range of possibilities with this old cartridge...

Check out my location, and if near enough to you, PM me for a range day.

Nematocyst
May 6, 2007, 03:22 AM
Oooh its cool!Now, Buckskinner, do you really think that you can post
such a tantalizing description without putting up some pics? :rolleyes:

Come on, man: where's the love?
We're gonna need at least one image.
Get your digital cam out ... :)

Very interesting loading information. I really like the idea of a cartridge loaded lightly for small game. I'll have to check out MoF for more details. Thanks.

Looks like you're a fer piece north of me. Unfortunately, with my work schedule right now (read no weekends off), I won't get up that far for a long time ... but thanks much for the offer. If something changes, I'll give you a shout.

Nem, who is, believe it or not, at work right now ... just taking a dinner break ...

Nematocyst
June 18, 2007, 05:51 AM
This thread has been quiet for too long.

It's about a rifle that is too ...
interesting to stop discussing.

So I thought I'd bump it.

The 1895G (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigbore/1895G.aspx) has a straight grip.
I like pistol grip long guns.

Someone earlier suggested
buying an 1895 and shortening the barrel.

So, in honor of the rifle,
I downloaded an image of an 1895,
and digitally shortened it to ~19".

I swear, a rifle like that could make me
hang up the 870 ... :eek:

Keep it, maybe,
but hang it up.

.45-70.
What's in your wallet?

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=59572&stc=1&d=1182156467

Z_Infidel
June 18, 2007, 12:10 PM
I too prefer pistol grip stocks, which is why if (when?) I buy a big-bore Marlin it will be the 1895 or an XLR as opposed to a Guide Gun. The idea of a shortened 1895 with either ghost ring sights or a low-power (preferably fixed) scope like Leupold's 2.5X20 ultralight is very appealing.

On the other hand, if I intended to shoot the heavy .45-70 loads at large or dangerous game on a regular basis I would probably keep the extra barrel length. Yeah, that's it -- regular length with the 2.5X scope for hunting, shortened barrel and ghost ring sights for protection.

It might also be interesting to look into what type of express sights could be installed on the 1895. Perhaps XS Express Sight rear with a Marbles front ramp and large bead for visibility? That would make for a durable, easy to see setup that points quickly and would be precise enough for shots out to at least 75 yards or so -- maybe even 100. It would probably also be very good for short-range shots on moving targets like a charging animal -- maybe better than a ghost ring even. Ghost rings are pretty quick, though -- maybe it's a tossup.

stiletto raggio
June 18, 2007, 04:14 PM
Torpid,

Who made that butt cuff? I might get one if the price isn't prohibitive.

I have had a Guide Gun for five years and I love it. I have a Weaver 2.5-8x32 EER scope on mine, mounted forward on an AO mount. It is plenty accurate and fun to shoot. I've worked up some realtively hot handloads, but never shot any Buffalo Bore.

I love the Marlin design. I am waiting to buy an 1895 Cowboy. Nine shots of 45/70: the ulitmate dangerous game rifle.

arctictom
June 18, 2007, 07:17 PM
As an addition to the 1895G I recommend the Wild West guns site kit (http://www.wildwestguns.com/Accessories/accessories.html)
And perhaps their bear proof ejector ( I haven't had a factory part fail yet ).

torpid
June 18, 2007, 07:35 PM
.45-70.
What's in your wallet?

Nothing these days if you don't reload .45-70! :D


Levergun Leather Works made the buttstock carrier, stiletto.

Nematocyst
June 19, 2007, 02:39 AM
I heard that. I've priced .45-70 rnds. It ain't pretty. :uhoh:

But I guess you gotta pay for all that power.
Kinda like a big diesel: they're thirsty beasts,
but will pull a house off its foundation.

Levergun
June 19, 2007, 03:17 AM
I shoot black powder out of my 45/70 and cast my own bullets as well as make my own lube. The cost is greatly reduced!;)

Nematocyst
June 19, 2007, 03:52 AM
Levergun, more details, please?

What do you mean that you shoot black powder out of your .45-70?

You're talking about a muzzle loader right?

mustanger98
June 19, 2007, 10:16 AM
What do you mean that you shoot black powder out of your .45-70?

You're talking about a muzzle loader right?

Nem, The old .45-70 loads were black powder and cast lead bullet. Those were fired in Sharps, Winchester 1886 (lever) and 1885 (Highwall), Remington Rolling Block, and Springfield trapdoor.

Regarding muzzle loaders, I have a T/C .45cal Hawken and I've tried shooting it with 70grains of Pyrodex RS. It works a lot better with 50-60grains. 70-90grains just overpowers it and adds nothing to accuracy.

CZguy
June 19, 2007, 11:12 AM
What do you mean that you shoot black powder out of your .45-70?

.45-70 means .45 caliber, and 70 grains of black powder in it's original load.

Nematocyst
June 19, 2007, 04:45 PM
Thanks for that clarification, guys. Interesting bit history there.
(I'm becoming increasingly more interested in these rifles, and their long history ... )

Mustanger, one more question, please:

The old .45-70 loads were black powder and cast lead bullet. Those were fired in Sharps, Winchester 1886 (lever) and 1885 (Highwall), Remington Rolling Block, and Springfield trapdoor.Sorry for being a little dense here, but I'm still trying to understand how that was done. In those guns (especially the levers), was (is?) the black powder poured into a shell casing, then a lead bullet pushed in? Did they use any relatively more "sophisticated" tools to do that back at the ranch, or was it more of a hand load operation that could be done easily in the field?

Nematocyst
June 19, 2007, 04:58 PM
Just googled some of those models that Mustanger mentioned above.

Here's Remington's current production line of replicas of their rolling block (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/custom_shop/RollingBlock_rifles.asp).
(Kinda spendy, but worth it I'm sure for collectors.)

Here's an informative article called "Frontier Single-shot Rifles (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-65017377.html)" from Guns Magazine, 10/1/2000, by John Taffin.

mustanger98
June 19, 2007, 05:58 PM
still trying to understand how that was done. In those guns (especially the levers), was (is?) the black powder poured into a shell casing, then a lead bullet pushed in? Did they use any relatively more "sophisticated" tools to do that back at the ranch, or was it more of a hand load operation that could be done easily in the field?

At first, they didn't have the technology to draw brass cases so they drew copper cases. Those copper cases were the problem in trapdoors... when they expanded during obturation, they didn't contract. As soon as they got the production of drawn brass cases up and running, reloads could be made at home or in the field. They did have some special tools, but it don't seem too overly complicated to me. To load black powder properly, you have to have a brass drop tube. You don't want to use any other metal because static electricity will detonate black powder. A compressed charge is required because whereas smokeless burns, BP explodes. So the bullet was pushed in to the desired length with the appropriate charge weight measured by volume and any needed cardboard spacers. Some .45-70 shooters of that time backed their charges down by 20grains depending on what their rifles shot best with. And the Army had a somewhat reduced charge issued for the carbine versions. Buffalo hunters staying out however long they did would carry the reloading kits with them... think Matthew Quigley.

ZeSpectre
June 19, 2007, 06:09 PM
I'm dreaming of a stainless steel guide gun... darned if I don't have to buy a house first.

Sheesh, it's always something in the way ;)

CZguy
June 19, 2007, 09:14 PM
I'm dreaming of a stainless steel guide gun... darned if I don't have to buy a house first.

You have to have a place to keep your collection after all. :D

Nematocyst
June 19, 2007, 10:43 PM
I confess, I have a different view of it.
To each their own, of course, but ...

I don't own a house. Never will.
Don't even want to.
(Semi-nomadic suits me well ... )

But my guns are just as safe, if not more so.
(The story of how is long, and I rarely share it on line ...)

And, with no mortgage, no land taxes, and no repair bills,
I can afford the guns I want and to offer them better care and feeding.

Priorities.
It's all about priorities. ;)

arctictom
June 20, 2007, 09:13 PM
Aaaaaaaaaah the romance of the 45-70 , I have 3 levers in 45-70 and am lusting after a single shot , for no particular reason.

Nematocyst
June 20, 2007, 09:46 PM
Aaaaaaaaaah the romance of the 45-70 Dude, ain't that the truth.

Nothing short of ... love and lust ...

It's mostly not rational.
I just want one.

Wedge
June 20, 2007, 10:58 PM
When deer hunting up north (western/upstate NY) I used a 12 ga. shotgun with a 1oz. slug. No excessive damage.

A 400+ gr 45-70 would be about the same.

Levergun
June 21, 2007, 01:38 PM
I am trading some leather work for an 1893 Marlin Model 94 in 38-55. I will be casting and loading it with Black powder.

Nematocyst-870
FYI, you can not shoot black powder in all 45-70 guns. The guide gun is a good example. The rifling is too fast and the powder will gum things up and you will have trouble. But on the other hand, the Marlin Cowboy 45-70 has the Ballard rifiling and you can shoot BP cartridges in them.

So now with the 38-55 coming, that will take the place of my wanted Guide gun and I can get the Cowboy instead.;)

arctictom
June 21, 2007, 03:17 PM
Your should have both the guide gun and the cowboy , the cowboy is a sweet shooting rifle and the balance is great , I like the feel as well , I put a tang site on mine and love it .

JohnKSa
June 22, 2007, 03:06 AM
Marlin switched over to the ballard style rifling on all their 45/70 rifles sometime ago (years).

Nematocyst
June 25, 2007, 06:30 AM
Here's a bit of .45-70 history (http://www.cherrys.com/ped_cart.htm).

Of course, I'd like a Marlin 1895 (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895.aspx).

RollinArt
January 9, 2009, 04:59 PM
Hello,

Found this site while seeking some 45-70 info. In my AARp years I have reverted to my boyhood interest of cowboy lore, et al, and am more convinced that the 45-70 would be a fine addition to my collection.

I read recently that the newer Marlin Guide Guns had the Ballard type rifleing(sp) as opposed to the Micro-Groove. This is suppose to accomodate the use of BP. Just FYI

JustsayMo
January 9, 2009, 05:31 PM
RollinArt be prepared, big bores are addictive.

I think all of the recent Marlin 1895 offering feature the 'Ballard' type rifling. I think that came about due to the (false) perception that Micro-groove barrels don't shoot lead well.

In my own experience I've found Micro-Groove barrels shoot lead at least as well as the Ballard versions and are easier to clean. The key is proper bullet sizing. A friend cast me some .457" bullets that out of my Ballard 1895 would keyhole if they hit paper at all at 50 yards. With .459" (up to .461") sized cast bullets the rifle is capable of cloverleaf groups. at that same distance.

I have both MG and Ballard rifles in 336. The MG barrels actually outshoot the ballard 336 CB with cast bullets and as mentioned before it is easier to clean them afterward.

I have shot Black Powder out of 1895 and I'm not sure how Ballard would make it any easier.

Nematocyst
January 13, 2009, 06:30 AM
My current desktop image:

http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/23/mfc_1895sbl.jpg

I'm probably going to sell my 336 for one of these.

moooose102
January 13, 2009, 08:02 AM
while i have yet to take a whitetail with my 45/70, i have done some bullet expansion testing. the best of the bunch that i tested was the Hornady 350g round nose. it was a PERFECT mushroom, and came back to my scale weighing 339g. also, if you are concerned about recoil, just spend 35 clams and buy a Limbsaver recoil pad, install it and forget about it. that little peice of rubber is AMAZING!

JustsayMo
January 13, 2009, 10:17 AM
I too have found Hornady bullets to preform very well - both in expansion and in accuracy.

The nice thing about 45 caliber bullets is they are already "pre-expanded." Smaller projectiles do well just to achieve 45 caliber. Also, in my experience, a non-expanding 45 caliber projectile with a wide meplat will cut a hole larger than its diameter without expanding. The result is rapid exsanguination and a clean harvest.

CZguy
January 13, 2009, 10:33 AM
also, if you are concerned about recoil, just spend 35 clams and buy a Limbsaver recoil pad, install it and forget about it. that little peice of rubber is AMAZING!

Plus one.

I enjoy shooting my guide gun now.

SwampWolf
January 13, 2009, 02:11 PM
I'm probably going to sell my 336 for one of these.

There you go again. You'll be sorrrrry !!:uhoh:.

Nematocyst
January 15, 2009, 04:22 AM
SwampWolf, I'm curious. Why will I be sorry?

Not saying you're wrong, just curious about your logic.

For me, it's more about finding the optimal toolkit with fewer guns.

I love the .30-30, but if the .45-70 does all it'll do and more, why not?

1858
January 15, 2009, 05:20 AM
I'm probably going to sell my 336 for one of these.

That's not a factory Marlin right? I have a Guide Gun (stainless) and an XLR ... if I could just get them to mate, their offspring would probably look like your photo since I have XS lever rails on both.

:)

Nematocyst
January 16, 2009, 04:47 AM
1858, yes, it's going to be a factory Marlin.

Not in production yet, but it's in their news (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/news/press.asp#2009_4).

No price set yet, apparently.

I'm guessing it will run just under 4 figures. :uhoh:

1858
January 16, 2009, 01:40 PM
Nematocyst, thanks for the link ... I REALLY want one of those! I bet they'll have a tough time keeping up with demand. :(


Marlin® Unveils Big Bore Series 1895SBL – The Ultimate “Guide Gun”

North Haven, CT – Guides and outfitters have placed their trust in Marlin lever-action carbine rifles for decades due to their rugged dependability, fast actions and compact stow-anywhere design. For 2009, Marlin takes the guide rifle to the extreme with the introduction of the Model 1895SBL.

The new 1895SBL is chambered for the legendary 45-70 Government; a round that has proven its worth on every North American big game species from Maine to Alaska. The 1895SBL is built to handle the worst mother nature can throw its way with stainless steel barrel, receiver, trigger guard plate, loading gate and enlarged loop lever. Other distinguishing features include a weather-impervious laminated stock, heavy 18 1/2-inch barrel and 6-shot full length tubular magazine.

Ready for a quick call to action, the 1895SBL features the durable XS® Ghost Ring Sight System which allows for faster target acquisition and improved accuracy over conventional sights. For those who prefer using optics, the 1895SBL comes standard with a XS lever rail that provides a rock-solid mounting platform for a variety of options including long eye relief scout scopes, traditional scopes and even red dot or holographic sights.

TexasRifleman
January 16, 2009, 01:42 PM
1895SBL

No mention of stock style. Think there's a remote chance they will put the pistol grip stock on it?

That's the biggest problem with all their guide guns in my opinion.

1858
January 16, 2009, 01:48 PM
No mention of stock style.

Nematocyst, the picture you posted shows the pistol grip stock ... is that picture from Marlin's website or is it of the "homemade" variety.

:)

TexasRifleman
January 16, 2009, 02:01 PM
the picture you posted shows the pistol grip stock

Duh, somehow I missed the photo :)

Hope that's "production".

If so I'll be buying one the day it is available. That's been my one and only complaint with my GS

1858
January 16, 2009, 02:15 PM
No price set yet, apparently. I'm guessing it will run just under 4 figures.

That sounds about right since I paid around $650 each for my Guide Gun and XLR. The XS lever rail with ghost rings sights is a $150 upgrade and the big loop lever is about the same. The extra capacity of the magazine tube (6 rounds) and the pistol grip stock (if they offer it that way) will make this a very popular item and hard to get I'm sure. They'll have to price it about 50% higher than the standard Guide Gun or else they won't sell any of those.

Duh, somehow I missed the photo

Hope that's "production".

No biggie and me too!! :D

Harve Curry
January 16, 2009, 02:55 PM
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w202/NewMexicoOutfitter/BillWeddlemuledeer1881Marlin12Nov07.jpg
I got this one with my 1881 Marlin 45-70, my reload of 330gr cast Lyman/Gould bullet and 2400 powder at 1550 FPS. I've shopt quite a few deer and coyotes with it. So far it knocks them all off there feet out to 180 yards. The one in the picture was 165 yards and trotting. There's hardly any meat damage compared to a high powered rifle.

JustsayMo
January 17, 2009, 10:50 AM
AWESOME photo Harve!

Nematocyst
January 18, 2009, 02:31 AM
Harve, I agree with my friend Mo. Great photo. Fine looking rifle.

Good data that this "old" cartridge will kick it out to 180.
And with iron sights, no less. :what:

I'm truly envious that you live in or near the Black Range.

That's one of the most beautiful ranges I've ever been in.
Driving east out of Silver across the Black Range is
one of the most awesome drives I ever did, and I did it repeatedly,
mostly after backpacking trips in the Gila on the way back up to ABQ.

The trip up the west side through the foothill switchbacks was always a treat.
The view looking east into the Rio Grande Valley from the pass defies words.
I can still smell the creosote (bush) while driving down after an August storm.

You're a lucky guy to be there.

schlockinz
May 25, 2009, 02:02 AM
Finally picked up one of these the other day.

I wanted an iron sited gun for brush hunting hogs and deer, and my 30.06 with a 4.5-14 scope makes acquisition difficult in real short ranges.

But, a comparison that I'll make. The 45-70 has considerably less recoil with Winchest JHP 300gr rounds than my 30.06 with winchester SP 150gr rounds. By far this has been the most fun I've had shooting a gun.

Now, all I have to do is become proficient with it and decide on what rounds to use (leverution or buffalo bore MEplats look like they might win)

tcrocker
May 25, 2009, 12:44 PM
Here is some pic of a deer I took with a 464gr lead hand cast over 37gr of IMR4198. The lower one is the entrance wound:what: Other than the large hole very little meat loss. The case is a 30-06.
http://http://thumb3.webshots.net/t/74/74/6/24/47/2203624470103526723NXUDTv_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2203624470103526723NXUDTv)
http://http://thumb3.webshots.net/t/66/566/2/60/9/2976260090103526723jailSX_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2976260090103526723jailSX)http://http://thumb3.webshots.net/t/69/469/8/79/12/2425879120103526723OwqsBc_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2425879120103526723OwqsBc)http://http://thumb3.webshots.net/t/63/563/3/69/64/2659369640103526723PwWcfz_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2659369640103526723PwWcfz)

schlockinz
May 25, 2009, 02:12 PM
What aftermarket sights are you guys using on this gun, if any?

I've been toying with the idea of a peep, but at the least I think I'd change the front for a tru glow, and something with a little more ease for adjustment on the front.

Anyone have luck with a tang sight for longer ranges, and a folding rear sight that could be used for short ranges?

SwampWolf
May 25, 2009, 05:59 PM
What aftermarket sights are you guys using on this gun, if any?

I've been toying with the idea of a peep

I definitely would recommend you consider a receiver sight along the lines of a Williams FoolProof or the Lyman equivalent. Much faster on target than conventional "irons" and more precise. Finally, a good peep doesn't disturb the balance and handling characteristics of a lever-action carbine/rifle like a scope does.

tcrocker
May 25, 2009, 06:33 PM
I like the Williams peep and Marblies fiber optic front in green. I had the red on but it blurs you target. And I like the Wild West large loop as well. The other loops I've seen are a little on the thin side.

1858
May 25, 2009, 06:45 PM
Finally, a good peep doesn't disturb the balance and handling characteristics of a lever-action carbine/rifle like a scope does.

Maybe that's true for you but it sure ain't the case for me. Given the weight and position of the scopes on my Marlins, they have ZERO affect on the balance and definitely improve the handling and performance for me but to each their own! :) My '94 doesn't have a scope and that's the way I like it.

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/marlin/xlr_guide_gun.jpg

:)

SwampWolf
May 25, 2009, 08:15 PM
definitely improve the handling

:confused: So you're saying that a scope improves the handling of your rifle? Like you said, "to each their own." That adage certainly seems to apply here!

1858
May 25, 2009, 08:40 PM
So you're saying that a scope improves the handling of your rifle? Like you said, "to each their own." That adage certainly seems to apply here!

In terms of time to get on target and bullet placement ... no question! :) But again ... that's what I find works best for me so I don't (or try not to) make general statements as to what works "best" on a lever action rifle.

:)

outerlimit
May 25, 2009, 09:16 PM
I've never heard of people in modern day still using .45-70 on deer, this is a new one on me.

I always think of it as a bear gun, I think a good deer brush gun is a .30-30.

alemonkey
May 25, 2009, 09:49 PM
I've never heard of people in modern day still using .45-70 on deer, this is a new one on me.

Deer are a lot tougher these days. That's why they developed all of the short magnums, to deal with the uberdeer threat.

:D

schlockinz
May 25, 2009, 11:34 PM
I've never heard of people in modern day still using .45-70 on deer, this is a new one on me.

I always think of it as a bear gun, I think a good deer brush gun is a .30-30.

I got mine mainly for pigs and brush. I already own a 30.06, so I didn't see the need for another 30 cal.

I intend to be able to shoot deer with this thing, but its not the reason why I got it.

Maverick223
May 26, 2009, 01:35 AM
Nem,
Once you go big bore, there ain't no goin' back. It will take the biggest bite out of your ammo budget, your other rifles will spend more time in the safe and you'll wonder why you even need a skinny bullet rifle.

Worse yet is there are a lot of us enablers that are overly passionate about rifles that produce large diameter holes. You'll get no peace at the range as the GG attracts a lot of attention. You too will soon be recruiting others to the fold. You'll buy reloading and casting equipment to stretch your ammo budget. Brass will be more valuable to you than gold. You'll have a silly grin and a sore shoulder for days after each session.

You've been warned
I fully agree, I recently put another 45-70 on the list (have an 1885 High Wall, will be getting a 1895 and chopping). Must have big holes...:D

Maverick223
May 26, 2009, 01:41 AM
Marlin .45-70 for deer?That's like asking ".223 for groundhogs" or ".22lr for squirels"...they were made for each other.
I'm guessing it will run just under 4 figures.Keep telling yourself that...I'd pay to have one at that price (pay exactly $400 that is). I may be getting one of those if the price is right, but I think it will approach $900...I hope I'm wrong. :banghead:

JShirley
May 26, 2009, 01:46 AM
Sighting options for lever guns might be a good topic for a new thread...if there isn't already a thread about it up.

For now...DIE, zombie thread!

John

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