[BlkHawk73]

It seems that these days everyone is so against the police for simply doing thier jobs. Many of these same people are also usually the ones that think they "know" the laws and what the cops duties entail. Well then, to those people I say if you're so knowledgeable in these areas, you put on the blues and badge and you do it. Be a hero. Sure there are those cops that give others a bad name but these people are in every marketplace. (white collar crime). Don't sterotype 'em all. If you do, sterotype every profession, including your own.
"Cops won't be able to get there in time" "cops, just hassle ya" etc...maybe some of this is becuse they're busy dealing with others that thought this and took things into thier own hands. "I wasn't doing anything and they stopped me" well, paperwork sucks and adding more by issueing a citation isn't something they look forward to. So, more than likely you were doing something wrong.
Now-a-days, more than ever, the police are likely to question someone with a firearm. get over it. Maybe they're trying to keep your community safer! Then there's the "they're infringing on my rights" criers. Ever think they're helping to protect them (your rights) to? If they didn't get all the naughty little boys and girls off the streets, how much life, liberty and happiness would we all have with a million more criminals running around loose? How many of these "rights" are actually just privledges?

Before the flames star coming, no I'm not an active LEO, just someone that undrwent thier trainging to gain a bit more respect for the jobs they do. Hmmm...I wonder how many of the gripers can complete the same training? Proberly all the same ones that claim "I can do that too" about the military operations.

[El Tejon]

Thanks, Blkhawk, I was just doing my job as a LEO.:)

[hammer4nc]

...So, more than likely you were doing something wrong...get over it...a million more criminals running around loose?...How many of these "rights" are actually just privledges?

Errrr, blkhawk73, aren't you forgetting mandatory lobotomies for all subjects? Certainly would make leo's job easier, and cut down on that dang paperwork!

[Ala Dan]

Many thanks there Blackhawk 73; we do appreciate
the kind word's!:)

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Edward429451]

Oh I appreciate good cops. There just seems to be less of them around these days. You make good points in general, but sound just a touch naive in a couple areas, no offense. When I negativly sound off about cops, its really the 'individual' cop, or 'the administration' that forces their hand that I complain about.

To be fully realistic in todays world, one must realize that bad guys come in many shapes & sizes. Just as a cop cant tell the difference between a clean cut murderer and a clean cut lawful individual on his way to work until he identifies him and checks for warrants, citizens cannot tell the difference between rogue cops and well intentioned ones, until its too late to be able to do anything about it.

We've got bad guys dressing up as cops and doing home invasions and rapes. We've got cops dressing up as vagrants and construction workers. How's a guy to tell the difference? I've got friends who look like they just escaped the chain gang, yet I'd trust my life to them. I know cops who look real respectable in their blues, yey came in my home and stolen my property from me. Any good advice here?

Possibly my biggest gripes with cops is the way (lots? some? most?) push citations for victimless crimes, hang all the extras on you as possible in anticipation of plea bargaining and still getting the revenue they are (quota'd?) instructed to generate. A lot of this is extortion plain and simple. They run the courts like a fast food restaurant..."Which value meal today sir?" (plea bargain), "thank you, come again." Also the way they say "I'd like to be reasonable, but the book (law) says I cant". Are they not willing or not allowed to think outside the box? This is not law enforcement, friend. I get pulled over for not using my turn signal, I say to the cop..."wouldn't we all be better off if you were out catching Real bad guys?" She said..."Catching BG's isn't my job" What the heck?

Extortion, wrong addresses, shooting the wrong people and pets, bad intel, bad raids, lies, dropping throwdowns, outright theivery, and so forth. OK, a few bad apples, granted. Do we as (rightfully so) distrustful citizens, bow our respect to the uniform as blind sheep, knowing its possible that the uniform makes no difference to wether they're really a respectable person or not? I would think not. I think that respect is a two way street and should be judged by the individual and not naively by the uniform he may or may not have on. All you good cops have my respect and I appreciate the job you attempt to do, but lets face reality and aknowledge that a uniform is not respectable until the individual put respectability on with it. Being 'under the color of law' makes me perceive a potential greater threat from cops than from gang bangers and criminals, in general. I can give a certain look to a thug and he'll likely go away and leave me alone whereas if I give that look to a cop, he calls for backup and attempts to ruin me financially for not being obsequecious to him and his uniform. Enough already!! I like you good guys and loath you bad guys who wear uniforms.

[Chris Rhines]

It seems that these days everyone is so against the police for simply doing thier jobs. If that job involves the violation of my civil rights, then you're damn right I'm against them. So should you be.

Well then, to those people I say if you're so knowledgeable in these areas, you put on the blues and badge and you do it. Heh. This sounds like the old, "If you haven't walked the walk, don't complain pseudo-argument." Sorry, but it doesn't wash. Just as I don't have to be sexually interested in children to be opposed to pederasty, I don't have to have been a police officer to be opposed to human rights violations committed by the police.

Now-a-days, more than ever, the police are likely to question someone with a firearm. get over it. Maybe they're trying to keep your community safer! If 'keeping my community safer' requires me to be poked, prodded, disarmed, searched, seized, and watched over by the government, then I'll pass. I'm not willing to give up a single bit of freedom for even the promise of perfect safety.

Then there's the "they're infringing on my rights" criers. Ever think they're helping to protect them (your rights) to? Except that the police aren't helping to protect my rights, or anything else for that matter. Can I expect the cops to guard me 24/7 when some thug threatens my family? Or are they too busy making the community safe?

If they didn't get all the naughty little boys and girls off the streets, how much life, liberty and happiness would we all have with a million more criminals running around loose? Wah. I can protect myself against the freelance criminals. What am I supposed to do when its the cops violating my rights?

How many of these "rights" are actually just privledges? Life, liberty, property. All rights. Anyone who violates them is a criminal, whether he wears a badge or a grungy flannel.

You know, I really have no problem with most cops taken as individuals. Most of the ones I know are pretty cool, they don't make a habit of going around stealing under color of authority, busting heads, all that kind of stuff. What I really cannot stand is the constant whimpering. "Why don't the citizen-subjects apprieciate us? Don't they understand that we're acting in their best interests?" Right. I don't want anyone acting in my best interests. And I'm not going to bow and scrape and pretend that the police are my bestest buddies for doing so.

- Chris

[PJR]

I know many LEO's, grew up with them, worked with them and consider some friends.

What I keep hearing from police officers is that they have to approach every encounter with the public as a potential threat to their safety. "Be nice to everyone you meet but watch their hands and have a plan to take them down if necessary."

Not unreasonable thinking because even though the vast majority of people are not bad guys some are.

So why then do LEO's take such great offense when the general public treats them pretty much in the same way. Yes, I know most coppers are doing good but the policy agencies and their unions have covered up bad behavior so often that I don't know who I'm dealing with.

In any encounter with police I am polite and civil but don't voluntarily permit you to do anything (e.g. enter my home or search without a warrant) or answer any of your questions until you convince me I'm not a suspect or under investigation. In the absence of that assurance I am claming up and getting counsel. Why do I do this? Because this is what my LEO friends do when they are questioned by their Internal Affairs. Good enough for them, good enough for me.

You automatically don't trust me not to try and kill you and I don't trust you not to jack me up on trumped up charges. I don't like feeling that way but I didn't set the ground rules.

[trooper]

To be fully realistic in todays world, one must realize that bad guys come in many shapes & sizes. Just as a cop cant tell the difference between a clean cut murderer and a clean cut lawful individual on his way to work until he identifies him and checks for warrants, citizens cannot tell the difference between rogue cops and well intentioned ones, until its too late to be able to do anything about it.

Right, you hit it. A lot of complaints come from citizens who were subjected to routine procedures such as vehicle checkpoints or ID checks. Those guys usually tell us, "Why are you pulling me over, I didn't do anything wrong, do I look like a criminal, or what?"

It's hard to explain to them that we don't think they look like criminals and that the action was not directed at them personally.

We have no way of knowing wether the individual in the car is a wanted felon, or if there are 25 illegal immigrants in the back of his truck, or whatever.

However, I actually do meet quite a number of people who are grateful for us doing our job. And when you're constantly being kicked in the behind from incompetent superiors and gutless politicians who will not put their butt in line for their officers a word of appreciation from a citizen can make all the difference.


Regards,

Trooper

[Edward429451]

However, I actually do meet quite a number of people who are grateful for us doing our job. And when you're constantly being kicked in the behind from incompetent superiors and gutless politicians who will not put their butt in line for their officers a word of appreciation from a citizen can make all the difference.

HEY! you sound like one of the respectable good guys.:) Thanks bro'.

It's hard to explain to them that we don't think they look like criminals and that the action was not directed at them personally.

Lotsa negativly sounding cop talk is not personal either, its towards the administration and not the officer, yet he's the administrations representitive so it sounds personal.

[BlkHawk73]

:rolleyes: :uhoh: :banghead:

[TheeBadOne]

A cop has a pulse, he bleeds red, sweats, laughs, crys, has pimples, gas, hangnails, bills, family, friends, fears, hopes, dreams...

[jsalcedo]

In my opinion its better to let a convicted felon get away than
stop me, check my papers, search my car and verbally berate me when I ask why....

I have had heavy handed cops pull the power play, scream obscenities at me in front of my young nephew, ask to search my car for a seatbelt violation, made me late for work and get written up by detaining me on the side of the road for an hour while they checked for warrants.

I had a good friend (white collar college graduate) get beaten
rodney king style on tape by 4 police officers when he asked
for a badge number after one of them prodded his girlfriend with a baton. (I can give the full story if anyone is interested)
He was charged with felony assault, resisting arrest etc..
The grand jury saw the tape of the incident and all charges were dropped. $20k in legal bills later of course

Fighting crime is not an excuse to trample the rights of others

[Edward429451]

:D :D Nothing Personal.:D :D







Maybe if I changed the way I vote...Oh wait, that din work.:D

[Feanaro]

A cop has a pulse, he bleeds red, sweats, laughs, crys, has pimples, gas, hangnails, bills, family, friends, fears, hopes, dreams...

And some of them are moronic, abusive and down-right nasty. That's not a blanket statement, there are many good cops out there. I know a few of them. But I've met more than a few that have authority problems, like to push people around and are in general very, very bad people.

These people should not be part of the force, they make the rest look bad.

[TheeBadOne]

Tears of a Cop



I have been where you fear to be.

I have seen what you fear to see.

I have done what you fear to do.

All these things I've done for you.

I am the one you lean upon.

The one you cast your scorn upon.

The one you bring your troubles to,

All these people I've been for you.

The one you ask to stand apart.

The one you feel should have no heart.

The one you call the officer in blue.

But I am human, just like you.

And through the years I've come to see

That I am not what you ask of me.

So take this badge and take this gun.

Will you take it?

Will anyone?

And when you watch a person die,

And hear a battered baby cry.

Then so you think that you can be

All those things you ask of me?

[Pilgrim]

You can have the type of local law enforcement you want, but you have to get involved in the process of focusing the attention of the Chief or Sheriff where you think it belongs.

Chiefs and Sheriffs don't operate in vacuums. They go to public meetings of all sorts to pitch their latest project, muster support for funding, and just show the flag. When they ask if there are any questions, ask. Tailor your questions to the subject so you don't become identified as the community crank on a certain topic.

If the Chief is explaining sobriety checkpoints, ask him what will happen if you are stopped and you refuse to give consent to search your car.

In the same vein, if a neighboring PD or Sheriff's Department shoots themselves in the foot, ask your Sheriff or Chief what he is doing to make sure his department doesn't make the same mistake.

If you have a problem with a particular action taken against you by his department, don't sandbag him in public. Use the department's grievance and complaint procedure first, especially if the problem is caused by an individual officer.

In the same vein, if the Chief or Sheriff is doing something right, don't hesitate to tell him and the public he is doing so. If an individual officer does right by you, make sure the Chief or Sheriff finds out.

[Edward429451]

Look here officer, us citizens are bringing up very valid and real issues. We can't all be making this stuff up. Lets look at this as the analysis of a sociological problem without emotion so it doesn't deteriorate into a you're anti-leo, yeah well you're a jbt type thread which actually would only serve to solidify the gap between us instead of enlightening reasoning progress which would bring us together on the issues, which could save lives in the future. I want you to go home to your nice family at night and I want to go home to mine also. When will officers start to be drawn down on from good citizens b/c of perceived or obvious abuses of rights? Very very bad scenario. No one wins. This is not neccessarily the officers fault. Sometimes yes, always, no. A bad administration guided by a malignant political climate/agenda? Regardless, its the officer who is thrust into this akward and dangerous position. I assert that for you officers who take the stance of poor little bashed on LEO, or officer safety first, even if it kills you or your dog citizen-subject, that you're being negligent both professionally, and as a human being, in an intellectual sense.

So un-emotionally, what can you say to possibly help us all come together peacefully on this officer? :)

Nothing personal.

[furetto7]

Lets see if I can cloud the issue even further. A LEO/Peace Officer/Cop/whatever else is sworn to uphold(enforce) the laws of the city, county, state and nation and to preserve the peace. While there is no legal obligation to protect the individual citizen, the vast majority of officers will do everything in their power to keep someone from coming to harm. There is no such thing as a "victimless" crime, it is only a question of who the victim is. The "victim" of what are generally called "victimless" crimes is society, the population in general.

Im my opinion, any department administration that views traffic enforcement as a revenue source is reprehensible. Are there departments that assign ticket quotas, yes. Is it wrong, again yes. A traffic officer should have some leeway/discretion in the method of enforcement, in many cases a verbal or written warning will accomplish the same thing as writing a ticket, the person is made aware of what was a potentially dangerous action with out there being a fine, a permanent record of the violation or points on their license.

Are there bad cops out there, most assuredly, fortunantly most of them get emptied out quickly, but they can do a lot of damage during the time they wear the badge. If you encounter an officer that you feel behaved or acted inappropriately don't argue with the officer, swollow your pride for the moment and make a formal complaint to the departments administrator or internal affairs division, use the system to get this person off the streets. If you can't get the satisfaction you desire from the department then take it to the jurisdictions govening body or take the officer and the department to court by suing them in civil court.

Every year far too many of the good ones make the ultimate sacrifice. www.odmp.org

[TheeBadOne]

Pilgrim; great post, very relevant.
---------------

On the subject of "quotas": This always raised an amused grin on my face. I suspect most states are like my own. There are LAWS on the books prohibiting quotas. In fact, my state has forbid quotas since 1970. I'm sure some states go back further. No Chief, no Sheriff can tell his men to write 'X' number of tickets. What a LEO dept can do is ask that it's men/women do something to earn they pay, such as investigations, warrants, civil process, PR, criminal prevention patrol, business checks, etc, and yes, traffic law enforcement. Some officer make plenty of traffic stops, some make very few. It's usually based on such things as:

* The Officer- some hold traffic enforcement highly, as a way to
prevent/reduce traffic accidents.

* The agency they work for- I would expect Highway Patrol
Officer to make traffic stops.

* The area they work, the activity going on there. Have busy
freeways/roads with high traffic volume and accidents? I would
expect the police to respond to that.

[roscoe]

The question is - why do you want to be a cop? If you do it because you want authority, or for people to 'respect you', you should be disqualified immediately.

Being a policeman/woman is a position of enormous power and responsibility and it is very easily misused. We have to always be vigilant for those who use the position for their own means because it is so easy for them to do.

It is a tough job, and it should be tough - if you want that authority and power you had better be prepared to demonstrate responsibility every minute of every day.

My brother is a cop, a good one, and like we say in the family- there is nothing better than a good cop and nothing worse than a bad one.

[jsalcedo]

Its getting to the point where I will feel better having cameras
with radar take care of business impartially and without emotion.

Radar cameras act on scientific principles and react with a measured punitive response (ticket in the mail).

This will alleviate the pissed off cop from abusing citizens, stomping on rights, shooting family dogs or killing the black dude for having a cell phone that looked like a gun.

Organized police forces are a relatively new concept in modern society and I think we have been duped to believe that they are really necessary to keep the peace.


There is no reason armed citizens couldn't fend for themselves and bring civil litigation or arrest those caught in a criminal act and bring them to a magistrate.

Maybe this sounds far fetched, but I really don't think the US would turn into Mayday in Bagdad if the police were disbanded
and private security hired with the tax dollars saved.

[Pilgrim]

Its getting to the point where I will feel better having cameras

Radar cameras act on scientific principles and react with a measured punitive response (ticket in the mail).

This will alleviate the pissed off cop from abusing citizens, stomping on rights, shooting family dogs or killing the black dude for having a cell phone that looked like a gun.


There was a science fiction writing, a short story, I remember from many years ago. The police are automated and robot patrol cars cruise the streets. A man is out for a walk, remembering his younger days when people often took walks. The exchange went something like this.

Patrol car stops next to the man, a metallic voice says, "What are you doing?"

"I'm taking a walk."

"Why?"

"For the exercise."

"Don't you have an exercise treadmill in your home?"

"Yes, but I would rather get some fresh air."

"Isn't your home air conditioned? The climate controlled for comfort?"

"Yes, but I also wanted to see what was going on in the neighborhood?"

"Doesn't your home have view scanners where you can see anything you want to see?"

"Yes, but I just wanted to be out and about."

The back door to the police car opens. The metallic voice says, "Get in."

"Where are you taking me?"

"A mental hospital."

[LiquidTension]

I deal with LEOs frequently in my job. Most of the officers that I have talked to are pretty cool guys, but "most" is NOT "all." I completely respect the job that they do except for the hiding behind bushes to give people tickets for doing 5mph over the limit part. There are some LEOs that are definitely on a power trip and should not be allowed to have a badge and power over other people. One particular case comes to mind.

One of the cases that we're working on deals with two motor vehicle deaths. Anyone that wants particulars (except names of involved parties) is welcome to PM or email me, but it's pretty long and involved and I don't feel like typing it right now. The gist of it is this: a completely innocent man is serving a five year sentence based on the testimony of an overzealous City of Columbia police officer. My boss called to interview him about the case, and the first words out of his mouth were, "That mother ****** is gonna fry!" Our investigation found that the man in jail was not at fault in any way, but the officer's testimony has kept the man in jail. This is the type of person that gives LEOs a bad name.

As I said before, I respect the job that LEOs do. This does NOT apply to the DEA and portions of the ATF, but that has already been discussed in another thread.

I think part of the reason that many people have a poor opinion of LEOs is the same reason that many people have a poor opinion of firearms - the media only reports the bad side of events. How often do you see reports on officers that do something good? Not very often.

[280PLUS]

i know of more than one time the resident family LEO gave some poor down on his/her luck soul the 2 or 3 bucks he had in his pocket and went without lunch that day.

and i also know of one time he had his brains bashed in and was nearly killed on an off duty shoplifting arrest that went bad.

tough job.

could i do it?

i'd like to think yes.

would i do it?

hmmmmmm,,,

m

[Nightcrawler]

My last experience with a cop was when I was pulled over in Omaha on the way home from Utah. I had apparently swerved into the margin (it was dark, and unfamilliar territory, and my night vision isn't so great). He was cool, and didn't give me a hard time (or a ticket). Unfortunately, I had to lie to him (I wasn't about to tell him that I had a loaded .45 locked in the glove box), but I don't have a problem with police officers in general.

Once in awhile you get the one that's a real dickweed. (Betcha haven't heard THAT one in awhile, hey?) That's why good cops and good citizens have to work together to keep police departments free from corruption, because officers have quite a bit of power and there must be measures to ensure that the public trust isn't violated.

I don't treat police officers with any special respect. I'm just as polite with them as I am with anybody (FWIW, I call just about everybody "sir", "ma'am,", or "miss"). They put their pants on one leg at a time just like everybody else. That said, it's a job that I wouldn't want to do.

[TallPine]

There is no such thing as a "victimless" crime

Now, let me get this straight ...

We had more than a decade when alcohol was illegal, so by your statement there were "victims" of illegal alcohol consumption/possession/manufacture during that period.

After, prohibition was repealed, so all of those "victims" are no longer victims ...?

Sorry, I don't get it. You'll have to try harder.


Back to the topic ...
It is because the few bad cops are such a hazard to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that people make such a big deal of it. So the clerk at Stuff-Mart is rude and incompent, no big deal. But a bad cop can cost you your life and freedom.

[Edward429451]

Sorry to go OT on ya guys but this is kinda relevant...(to guns)

and my night vision isn't so great).

Most night vision problems can be traced to a defeciency in vitamin A. When my night vision gets sensitive, I just start hittin the Vit A harder and it clears up. Most SD scenarios happen in low light. Something to (do) think about.;)

We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic...

[Nightcrawler]

I should clarify. My night vision, in of itself, is quite good. But I have astigmatism, so when I have a lot of oncoming traffic shining their headlights in my eyes, and am in unfamilliar territory where the lane I have to be in keeps moving (and the number of lanes seems to be changing constantly) I have a bit of a hard time. I wasn't swerving around or anything, my wheels just crossed the lane divider line and he pulled me over. *shrug*

[Darrin]

Has any non-LEO here gone through a Citizens Police Academy? They have that in a few counties here and have been thinking about going through it. If nothing else, I want to do this to get a better idea of what goes through a LEO's head at times.

LEOs - Does a Citizens Police Academy help the relationships between LEOs and non-LEOs in your area?

[furetto7]

By definition all crime has a victim, even if the victim is an abstract rather than an idividual. Battery is a crime against a person, burglary of an unoccupied structure is a non-person offense but the victim is the owner of the property, speeding is a crime against society( the whole of the population of the jurisdiction). Here in Kansas, for example, the offense report for a DUI lists the State of Kansas as the victim. Since all laws are written by the legislative branch of govenment, be it city, county, state or federal all that is needed for something to become unlawful is for a relatively small number of individuals to deceide that it is against the public good. Most crimes that are usually considered to be "victimless" are crimes involving whatever the prevaling morality is. Many people consider what a person does with thier own body to be their business, but if someone exchanges sex for goods then you have the crime of prostitution, is any one hurt by this exchange- no, but someone felt that this was immoral and thus was born the law prohibiting it.

Do I, as a sworn peace officer, agree with the criminality of many of these so called "victimless" crimes, no I am however sworn to uphold the law, fortunantly I work for a department that gives its officers a great deal of discretion in how to handle a situation.

[pax]

Tallpine, excellent post. You articulated the crux of the matter:
It is because the few bad cops are such a hazard to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that people make such a big deal of it. So the clerk at Stuff-Mart is rude and incompent, no big deal. But a bad cop can cost you your life and freedom.
Awhile back, my brother had a run-in with a LEO. The LEO was 100% in the wrong -- no doubt about it (he was so wrong that rumor has it that the other guys at the station are still ribbing him about it). When I told the tale to a LEO friend of mine, my friend pointed out that it simply wouldn't be "worth it" for my brother to do anything about it, legally speaking. As he said, unless my brother had a whole lot of money and time to spare, it was probably better to just let it go.

Like most people, my brother doesn't have a lot of money and time to spare. He let it go.

I like the LEOs I know, and am glad that folks like that exist. I don't think LEOs are all bad, evil human beings or anything like that. It's not that simple. It's just that, like most folks, I have no recourse if they step over the line, but to sit back and take it. I don't have the financial resources to do much else.

The fact is, people who can't afford to buy justice are at the mercy of the local LEOs in most situations.

No wonder people gripe about them.

pax

[CZ-75]

if someone exchanges sex for goods then you have the crime of prostitution, is any one hurt by this exchange- no, but someone felt that this was immoral and thus was born the law prohibiting it.

I do so love it when someone FEELS something should be a crime because they FEEL it is immoral (to them). Busybodies should stay out of the legislature. Lord knows most are guilty of at least some of the crimes they manufacture.


Appropos to Pax and TallPine's most recent posts on the issue.

[John G]

Most cops are great, and I thank them for doing a good job. Some cops stuff plungers up the rectums of suspects, or shoot an unarmed man 41 times. I like those cops a little bit less.

[SquirrelNuts]

I recommend for everyone to at least once do a "ride along" with a local police department. Most departments will allow anyone to do this, but some departments do not allow it at all. Visit your local police station and ask them about a ride along. This gives you a very realistic view of how a LEO does their job.

-SquirrelNuts

[NIGHTWATCH]

I dont hate cops. In fact I grew up with many guys who are now on the N.Y.P.D. who are family to me. Its the cops I dont know that I fear. Im not a criminal, but my fear is justified. The idea of an authority figure who can, at will, make my life a living hell scares me.

That being said, I will always extend my respect when speaking to the police and LE, but I have had some experiences with cops that will forever leave me at arms stretch with those I dont know. I have this thing with people who think that just because they have a badge, that they can intimidate me.

One example was last year. I was driving a commercial vehicle on the major deagan expressway in NYC. I was in a non-commercial lane. O.K, I made a mistake. Wrong lane.
Next thing I see is a police cruiser on my bumper, screaming to pull over. Screaming. I had a van load of senior citizens with me. Had he rattled me anymore, I could have lost control of the van. Its this kind of excess that I speak of. I was pissed to say the least because he could have just as easely flashed his lights and I would have pulled over. Instead he decided to treat me like some kind of terrorist.

I have had a few incidents such as this in the subway system but you get my drift. Bully cops are the worst and I fear them. I fear them because I feel that one day, I may have to defend myself against some idiot rookie who wants to make a name for himself and end up with a record that I have suffered all my life to avoid. Which leads me to my point.

If the law enforcement community wants to be fully respected, they must first learn some humility when dealing with the law-abiding citizen. And act in defense of our civil liberties rather than a threat to them. For those LEO'S reading this, realize that a "BullyCop" breeds more hostility to your profession than any other factor involved.

http://forums.allaboutguns.com/albums/nightwatch/never.jpg

[Archie]

Cops, agents, inspectors, Special Agents, troopers and other enforcement officers do not write laws. Seldom are they consulted about the writing of laws. Yet, part of our oath is to uphold the laws.
As has been mentioned, sometimes we have some latitude and sometimes we don't about what we do about a particular situation.
I'll give you this for free: don't call me a jackbooted thug and then demand I give you a break. I will do my best to determine a course of action on the situation and facts, but I am human and subject to having my buttons pushed.

New guys in various LE agencies often have something to prove. But only to themselves. They need wise old guys to settle them down.

LEOs have to approach many situations blind, and be ready to respond in any level of force; from offering a hanky to shooting someone. I have myself on occasion, but I always smiled and acted polite.
If you are a LEO of any stripe, and you think being polite and smiling is the sign of a wimp, get out now.

If you're a non-cop (and that sort of includes me when I'm not in uniform) and you don't like cops stopping you, you have two choices: Stay home or be very careful in your driving. The [person] who made the "Go catch bad guys" comment to the cop that stopped him is out of touch with reality. You were out of line, period. Perhaps it has not entered your mind, but people who turn without signalling cause traffic accidents; in turn causing monetary loss, injury and death.

Nothing says anyone has to like getting a ticket. On the other hand, if you were doing 80 in a 65 zone, what do you have to gripe about? You were in violation, were you not? Then grow up and accept responsibility for your actions and choices. It wasn't my foot or the cop's foot on your gas pedal. And tell me this: how many times have you done 80 in that same 65 zone and didn't get a ticket? How many free rides have you had?

Lastly, to any of brother officers reading this: Let's 'police' our own ranks. Don't stand for other officers who are a problem. If you have one who is good except for a particular weakness, help him with it. Don't hide a problem that has already occured, but see if you can keep it from happening. If you know an arrestee is getting under your skin, turn him over to someone else before you do something stupid.

I'm not worried about anyone reading this having a firearm. I'm convinced that an armed citizenry is a bigger deterrent to property and personal assault crime than any number of police patrols. I am concerned about malefactors having weapons... but they will be armed, my wishes or laws notwithstanding.

For anyone who has been the victim of a civil rights violation, there are several groups who will pursue the matter in legal circles. Get on the web and find them. And make a stink about it.

[TheeBadOne]

One good post Archie

[keyhole]

Archie

Gotta agree with you. I know a lot of new guys seem to have something to prove. Out of uniform, OK persons, but once they put it on, can turn into instant jerk. Time, can take that out of them, but until then,,,,,,

[pax]

Just a friendly reminder to all participants: please be careful in your choice of words. The subject is a passionate one for a lot of people, so take care not to push each other's buttons.

Thanks & carry on.

pax,
Moderator

Personalize your sympathies; depersonalize your antipathies. -- W. R. Inge

[cordex]

I wouldn't say that LEOs are all great people any more than I'd say that all gunowners are.
I will vehemently defend good individual officers and just as vehemently rail against the bad ones.

Individuals. That's the ticket.

"Just doing my job", "Oath to enforce laws"
Don't give me that. That's just a cop out. (pardon the pun).
You, and only you are responsible for your actions. If the laws you are told to enforce are unjust, immoral and unconscionable, but you enforce them just because your boss tells you to, you should be held accountable. Sure, there's a difference between giving a fine for not wearing a seat-belt* and rounding up a group of people to send off to the camps, but blindly following an oath to enforce every law that comes off The Hill gets you to the same place. You don't have to agree 100% with every law you enforce, but if you're willing to throw someone in jail for breaking any one of them, that's about the clearest tacit approval that is possible.

* An unjust intrusion into someone else's business, no matter how much sense it makes to wear one.

[Erik]

The introduction of prostitution and narcotics trafficing directly correlates to increases in most other crime rates in a given area. Conversely, the reduction and or elimination of prostitution and narcotics trafficing correlates to reductions in most other crime rates in a given area.

Which is why LEOs (who deal with crime) and criminologists (who study it) tend to dismiss the "but it is a victimless crime" arguments as academic theories at best, and somewhat naive wishful thinking at worst.

[Art Eatman]

Compared to forty years ago, I think that LEOs in general now have better training and better knowledge of law. As I've commented in other threads of this sort, my guesstimate as to the good-guy percentage in LEO-world, overall, runs maybe 97%.

There is one philosophical problem which in my early years kept me from seriously considering any career in law enforcement. I don't see any way that I could enforce laws which seem to me to be unconstitutional or infringements on civil rights. We keep saying that we're a government of laws, not of men, so the idea of my using my discretion would put me in the world of a government by opinion--mine.

I've thought about this for a number of years, from time to time. I have no answer for others, as to what they do, how they live their lives...

Art

[Don Gwinn]

And if prostitution were legal, and "illegal drugs" were sold legally at the pharmacy, would they still correlate with increases of other types of crime?

And is it just possible that LEO's "tend to dismiss the idea" of victimless crimes because people who believe in the concept that one who does no harm is not a criminal tend to reject law enforcement careers?

For my own part, I'm in the same spot Art was in when he was my age. Personally, I've long been bothered that I didn't serve in the military when it would have been easy to join up right after high school. Now that I have a wife, children and a mortgage, it wouldn't be so easy to enlist and go off to God knows where. And since the market for teachers seems to be drier than the market for police officers, I've been thinking lately that there might be another way to serve my country, or at least my community, while accepting my fair share of hard work and personal danger.

But then I remember that I find a lot of the laws I would be bound to enforce repugnant. For now, that tells me that I can't take that oath. How many others feel the same way?

[cordex]

But then I remember that I find a lot of the laws I would be bound to enforce repugnant. For now, that tells me that I can't take that oath. How many others feel the same way?
Me.
The introduction of prostitution and narcotics trafficing directly correlates to increases in most other crime rates in a given area. Conversely, the reduction and or elimination of prostitution and narcotics trafficing correlates to reductions in most other crime rates in a given area.
*cough* prohibition *cough cough*
Could picture a treasury agent quite a few years ago saying:
"The introduction of alcohol and alcohol trafficking directly correlates to increases in most other crime rates in a given area. Conversely, the reduction and/or elimination of alcohol and alcohol trafficing correlates to reductions in most other crime rates in a given area."
And he'd be right, but for the wrong reasons.
If someone wants something (drugs, to pay for sex, alcohol, porn, books, guns, whatever) and the only people who offer it are those who are willing to break the law, there will generally be a correlation between the presence of those illicit goods and services and other illicit activites (activities which can and do cause harm).
No surprise.

Correlation != causation.

[280PLUS]

how much money, police time, prison space, etc, would that free up?

if these "crimes" were to no longer be crimes and the gov't did its best to tax the ever loving (expletive deleted) out of them. what would we have done?

not only freed up all the above but also generate a tidy income from it too.

the gov't spends too much time policing these "moral" issues while violent crime, poverty and disease issues must have time and money taken away from them to accomodate the moral righteousness of a few.

then the money and time freed up as well as generated by this outlook could be well spent in prevention and recovery from drug addiction.

it could also be used to further strengthen and protect our borders, which, i can tell you, are by no means sealed off to smugglers.

the whole situation of organized crime and drug smuggling from outside our borders would be defused almost totally by the legalization of these crimes we speak of, just as it was with the repeal of prohibition.

prostitutes could be issued work cards and be required to have monthly checkups to help stem the spread of disease.

needle addicts could be given free works to reduce shared dirty needles, at the same time they could be given just a small push in the direction of recovery each and every time they pick up new stuff.

it all seems so plain to me. why can't the so called leaders of this society, given their supposed higher intelligence, see this as well?

other countries have and do quite well with it.

some countries you can get anything you want over the counter,,,

ah well, i ramble...:banghead:

so sorry...:D

[Erik]

"And if prostitution were legal, and "illegal drugs" were sold legally at the pharmacy, would they still correlate with increases of other types of crime?"

Yes.

Red light districts correlate with higher rates of crime in otherwise relatively crime free European cities.

Crime rates jumped in and around Amesterdam subsequent to their infamous stance on drugs. To a certain extent the Swiss experiment showed the same, too. (Becasue of the type of people druggies are, i.e. criminals.)

[Erik]

Lets take another so called victimless crime: Underage drinking.

Here's a present day American victimless crime if ever there was one, right?

Sure.

Thousands of lives and millions upon millions of dollars are estimated saved annually because of legislation mandating the enforcement of the drinking age.

Which makes it all worth while. Infringement of some perceived "right" or not.

By the way, individual rights are in fact superceded by collective ones. Which of course is why a host of pesky infringing legislation a la the prohibitions involving child pornography are strictly enforced by jackbooted anti first amendment thugs. Yes, they will kick in your door over it, by the way.

[Chris Rhines]

Red light districts correlate with higher rates of crime in otherwise relatively crime free European cities. And were the same proven to be true in my hometown in Maryland, it would not change things a whit. How many times do I have to repeat myself; I don't care about safety, security, or an orderly, organized society. I care about freedom.

Lets take another so called victimless crime: Underage drinking.

Here's a present day American victimless crime if ever there was one, right? Exactly right. The legal drinking age should be zero.

Thousands of lives and millions upon millions of dollars are estimated saved annually because of legislation mandating the enforcement of the drinking age. A specious argument, at best. If it were estimated that thousands of lives and millions of dollars would be save by gun confiscation, would you be in favor of it? And please don't give me any flak about 'a balance between individual rights and the good of society.' No one can strike such a balance for society as a whole, and certainly not for me and mine.

By the way, individual rights are in fact superceded by collective ones. If you believe this, Erik, then you are the bad guy.

- Chris

[Art Eatman]

Ya wanna discuss the issue of victimless crime, start another thread, okay?

:), Art

[Matt G]

This thread is on topic, how?!?:confused:

[12-34hom]

Excellent post Archie, that about sums it up for me.

12-34hom.

[BlkHawk73]

I don't care about safety, security, or an orderly, organized society. I care about freedom.


That line there just about sums it up:rolleyes:
:scrutiny: :banghead: :scrutiny: :banghead: (not sure how to spell that sound when you move your fingers up and down on your lips...bbbeeeppprrtt bbbeeeppprrrttt bbbeeeppprrrttt


The legal drinking age should be zero. :banghead: :scrutiny: just what we need, a mass of drunk kids. I'm sure the amount of drunk driving accidents wouldn't increase - but then again...we don't car about safety;)

[Gmac]

Waco, Ruby Ridge------- nuff said?

[Edward429451]

The [person] who made the "Go catch bad guys" comment to the cop that stopped him is out of touch with reality. You were out of line, period. Perhaps it has not entered your mind, but people who turn without signalling cause traffic accidents; in turn causing monetary loss, injury and death.

Thats the stock answer of rogue cops. "You broke the law, and anything and everything that we can legally do to you we will." How can you makes such an assumption that I'm out of touch with reality without knowing the facts or being there. I wasn't doing 85 in a 65, I didn't run any school children down, there was zero traffic, driving conditions were 100%, no careless ops, no reckless ops, no unsafe lane changes, no vehicular homicide, nothing. I had no victim, no close call. I got that ticket cause they couldn't find anything else to hang on me, I had all the hoops covered. All that time of looking, sniffing, snooping, prying , prodding, and leading led to nothing, so I was given the token citation so it wouldn't have been a waste of their time.

Why did you reword and add a little sarcasm to my quote to the cop? I didn't say 'go catch bad guys' (you halfwit), I said "Wouldn't we all be better off if you were out catching real badguys." I said it in the most polite manner. I would hope your sense of twisted reccollection isn't indicative of your 'professional' efficiency.

Or is it that we citizens cannot say anything now without raising your 'policemans ire' and you taking offense with your lawbook and gun? Thats the attitude that IS the problem and makes all LEO's look bad. You say you don't like your buttons pushed? Go reread your post and see how you start pushing citizens buttons right after saying that. So its ok for you, but not for me/us? Theres that rogue cop attitude again. Under color of law superiority. Fall in line serf, is that it?

[Greg L]

The legal drinking age should be zero.

just what we need, a mass of drunk kids. I'm sure the amount of drunk driving accidents wouldn't increase - but then again...we don't car about safety

No facts or figures to back it up but yes there would be an increase for the first couple of years as the kids whose leash was slipped explored their freedom. After that it would drop dramaticaly as the mystery of whatever this big thing that they are hiding from us (they being the adults who decided what the minimum drinking age is, us being the teenagers (not the three year olds :rolleyes: )) vanishes. As a whole, society will make the correct decisions to perpetuate the human race, not that which will wipe them out. Human nature will (if not shown through various lawsuits that there is no individual responsibility for anything) do the right thing in the end.

Or at least that was the theory many years ago before the invention of the nanny state. I fear for my kids :( .

Greg

[JPM70535]

Before I commence my defence of the LE community, let me say that in my 20+ years of service I have met bad cops. For the most part they didn't last long on the job. Other Good cops saw to that. They abhor the rotten apple every bit as much as does the citizenry.

Most of my LE career was spent in traffic enforcement. I worked enough fatalities caused by traffic offences that I found it difficult to work up any sympathy for speeders, red light violators, improper left or right turns, DUI, etc.

With rare exception, Traffic crashes are not accidents. An accident is not preventable, crashes are caused by violations. The obvious solution to reduction of traffic crashes is stepped up traffic enforcement. In the course of such stepped up enforcement, John Q Citizen who has never been involved in a crash is going to be ticketed for a violation which to him seems petty. The LEO who writes the ticket knows only that JQC committed a violation and cites him for it in the hope that JQC will think before committing the same violation again.

Several forum members equate traffic enforcement with revenue enhancement. The fines for traffic violations are set by the courts, not the Police. I would rather have seen the fines set at $5 and points on the Drivers licence which would lead to suspension after a relatively few offences, than the multi hundred dollar citations that do nothing to take the dangerous driver off the road. The choices are to either enforce the laws and possibly prevent future loss of life through reduction of traffic crashes or fail to enforce them and continue to fill out the traffic crash forms and notify next of kin.

Firgive me if I took the first option, I can look at my face in the mirror with no regrets. If that makes me a bad cop in some eyes, so be it.

[Edward429451]

Firgive me if I took the first option, I can look at my face in the mirror with no regrets. If that makes me a bad cop in some eyes, so be it.

Now this cops entire post reeks of reasonableness with a purpose, and I can respect that. Its the haughty attitude of others that needs to go to realize better relations and image with citizens.

I got no problem accepting tickets if I screw up and create a potential danger to the public through inattentivness or whatever. But, my last three tickets were: failure to use turn signal (with no traffic), Wheels over the line at red light (at full stop), and a bad headlight. I just have trouble comprehending how I put anyone in danger by any of those actions. Plus the LEO's that came in my home and stole my property kinda accounts for some of my bitterness also.

Didja know its a felony to lie to a cop but its totally legal for a cop to lie to a citizen? I lied, they lied, I am still paying. :( :fire: :cuss:

[Archie]

laws that attempt to change moral behavior by addressing an inanimate object.

Prohibition never worked in any form. About 3,000 years ago the Philistines instituted "weapon control" over the then subjected Israelites. For, surprize, surprize, political control.
The Israelite prince Jonathan stole a cache of weapons that began the Israelite rebellion that (with the help of God) freed Israel. I really love leaders with "sand". Prohibition and bans are not a new failure.

Legalize all drugs, prescription and illegal. We'd be rid of all the nitwits who can't read or follow instructions. No minimum age for booze? Sure. And my kids still wouldn't have any until they were on their own.
You see, parental responsibility is not dependent on civil laws. Gee, what a concept.

By the way, at the same time we legalize all this stuff, we have to completely end any form of governmental assistance. My tax money should not pay for some dimbulb who set the Guinness record for most crack snorted in a five minute period.

[CZ-75]

Legalize all drugs, prescription and illegal. We'd be rid of all the nitwits who can't read or follow instructions. No minimum age for booze? Sure. And my kids still wouldn't have any until they were on their own.
You see, parental responsibility is not dependent on civil laws. Gee, what a concept.

By the way, at the same time we legalize all this stuff, we have to completely end any form of governmental assistance. My tax money should not pay for some dimbulb who set the Guinness record for most crack snorted in a five minute period.


Sounds good to me.

Refreshing to hear an LEO state the obvious rather than the party line.

[jsalcedo]

That is a capital idea!

[Glamdring]

I think there are problems with the way LE (the institution) operates. I have more than a couple friends that are in LE. In college I focused on criminology and forensics, so I had more than a couple classmates that were in LE or working on becoming officers.

I think a person's view of LE depends on what type of interaction they have with LE.

***
When I call them to deal with a problem at work everything is fine since we are on the same side. (us against them)
***
When a plainclothes detective stops by and wants to collect personal information on all my clients without a warrent then they are NOT on my side. Specially when they say things like "investigation is on going so I can't tell you a specific name." (it is called fishing, funny how they never come back with a warrent, heck I wouldn't mind giving some info if they had a specific name or even discription)
***
After an accident or assault they refuse to make a report when you request them to.
***
When you call 911 about assault in progress and they never show up. You call them back after it is all over since they are not needed anymore and they say "what call???" (happened more than once when I worked security in college, LE was supposed to be our backup, we weren't even supposed to carry pepperspray)
***
In my personal experience calling LE only makes sense after something is over, or if is something that doesn't really directly impact me (like people fighting in an alley).