Jews against guns


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PILMAN
December 12, 2006, 07:47 PM
Maybe someone else can answer this as I don't have a real answer nor do I really want to ask but one thing I don't understand (as I'm Jewish my self) why there are so many Jewish organizations against gun ownership and firearms? Almost every Nazi seems to claim Jews are responsible for disarming us and use Feinstein as an example. I know there are a lot of Jews against guns and I know plenty who are also pro guns but it seems like most take the liberal aspect. I mean I figure after the holocaust and stuff every Jew would want to be armed. Most of my Jewish relatives keep asking why I need a gun and I just kind of ignore them. I don't want this to turn into a racist fight or anything but perhaps someone has some answers? Thanks.

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Standing Wolf
December 12, 2006, 08:03 PM
Almost every Nazi seems to claim Jews are responsible for disarming us and use Feinstein as an example.

She's not Jewish.

PILMAN
December 12, 2006, 08:05 PM
She's not Jewish

Senator Dianne Feinstein was born Dianne Emiel Goldman[1] in San Francisco to Leon and Betty Goldman. She has two sisters, Lynne Kennedy and Yvonne Banks. Her father, who died in 1975, was a nationally renowned surgeon who was the first Jewish person made tenured physician at the University of California Medical Center.[2] She received her B.A. degree in history in 1955 from Stanford University.

Religion Judaism

Delta608
December 12, 2006, 08:09 PM
I guessing that most Jews are liberals and vote democratic.......:barf:

thirty-thirty
December 12, 2006, 08:11 PM
It's a contradiction, not only is the President of the NRA, Sandra Froman Jewish, but I'm told so are most of the anti-gun politicians; Feinstein, Boxer, Waxman, Lautenberg, Cellar and Schumer. Then you have the JPFA. Someone please explain this.

Jackal
December 12, 2006, 08:11 PM
Jews against guns

I guess that guns aren't kosher.:neener:

PILMAN
December 12, 2006, 08:11 PM
I guessing that most Jews are liberals and vote democratic.......

Yeah but even then, many (not all) seem very outspoken about being against gun ownership and leading the anti gun cause (check out the NRA blacklist). I can't stand to associate with some of them. Are most minoritys against gun ownership?

ArfinGreebly
December 12, 2006, 08:19 PM
Disclaimer: I'm not a member of any of the religions under discussion here. I'm also not an atheist.

It is my experience that the "religion" of a given person is largely of no consequence in his view on arms.

I know Christians who cite scripture to cover their own spinal deficiencies.

I know Buddhists who wax all "radically genteel" and "above violence" to justify their denial.

I know Jews who won't touch firearms, one in particular who said, "Oh, I would never have one in my house, because I'd use it."

As I encounter people who passionately support RKBA, I find them from a wide spectrum of belief systems.

Kennedy is an Irish Catholic. He's anti-self defense, but pro-amphibious car.

I've met Baptists who "can't abide them things" and Baptists who are predictably sick the first week of hunting season every year.

One thing I have found is that many of the people who fear weapons have some event in their life where they were overwhelmed by a weapon, a person with a weapon, a person who owns/uses/promotes weapons, or even a person who loathes weapons. The common denominator is, in many cases, the overwhelm itself and the association (of some kind) with weapons.

Yes, I frequently hear of scriptural or philosophical rationale for the rejection and denial of weapons, but have come to recognize that this is smoke. The real reason lies somewhere else. The fact that Jesus/Moses/Buddha/Confucious/whoever stated plainly that firearms are the root of all evil is something of a latter-day over-dubbing.

Don't get too hung up in the [religion here] hates guns thing.

It's not the religion or church, it's the individual whose attitude you are seeing. The fact that like-minded people tend to stick together to reinforce their prejudices, and that like-minded people often have [religion here] and in common, and attend the same [establishment], is a red herring.

"I hate guns because I'm Jewish." or "He/she hates guns because he/she is Jewish." are both false.

It's a handy way to avoid personal responsibility for one's own beliefs.

Mousegun
December 12, 2006, 08:29 PM
I have asked myself that same question many times before and the only thing I can think is, apparently one generation of separation from the most horrific events that have ever taken place in modern times to any religion/race is enough to make many forget.

junyo
December 12, 2006, 08:31 PM
I've read that a lot of Jews are Roosevelt Democrats quite literally. Out of gratitude for the US's role in WWII they bought Roosevelt's whole progressive program, and the gun control that came with it.

Which is ironic considering that the event that made me decide to become a gun owner was a trip to the National Holocaust museum.

Autolycus
December 12, 2006, 08:37 PM
Some people are pro-gun and some are not. Its just as simple as that.

SniperStraz
December 12, 2006, 08:47 PM
I think that one of the many factors for Jews is that they don't want to be feared because "fear breeds hate." I've seen the contradiction played many times over, and I think that Jews that don't own guns are just naive. I know alot of Jews who go to the range once a week and some who go once a year, and still others that have no idea how to use a gun. (most of the non gun owning Jews don't realize that the highest hate crime rating on the FBI Hate Crime List in 2005 was Anti-Semetic hate crime) From what I see the only Jews who don't see it coming are the American Jews. Lets face it, man for man the Israeli army is probably the toughest army in the world. Thats a proven historical fact. <Art's Grammaw had to do some cleanup>

Jews are fighters from the times of the Roman oppression to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising to the Six Day War. Jews in America are the only ones who trust their lives to the Constitution of the US. If it were up to me all Jews would carry M-4 carbines on their backs like they do in Israel but unfortunately people get too comfortable with our rights. They need to be woken up. But the real reason, the sad truth is that it's easier not to believe the truth. The truth is that we all need guns. Its just like ever since I joined THR I've been a little more paranoid. Thats not to say that paranoid is bad. I always knew the truth, but I needed a little reminder. Turns out that the Jews along with the rest of the world have a short term memory problem.
(sorry for the super long post, I just get passionate about certain things)

RNB65
December 12, 2006, 08:52 PM
Perhaps religion has nothing to do with it. Most Jews that I know are extremely politically liberal. Their anti-gun sentiment has everything to do with politics and nothing (that I'm aware of) to do with religion.

PILMAN
December 12, 2006, 08:54 PM
I think that one of the many factors for Jews is that they don't want to be feared because "fear breeds hate." I've seen the contradiction played many times over, and I think that Jews that don't own guns are just naive. I know alot of Jews who go to the range once a week and some who go once a year, and still others that have no idea how to use a gun. (most of the non gun owning Jews don't realize that the highest hate crime rating on the FBI Hate Crime List in 2005 was Anti-Semetic hate crime) From what I see the only Jews who don't see it coming are the American Jews. Lets face it, man for man the Israeli army is probably the toughest army in the world. Thats a proven historical fact.

Jews are fighters from the times of the Roman oppression to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising to the Six Day War. Jews in America are the only ones who trust their lives to the Constitution of the US. If it were up to me all Jews would carry M-4 carbines on their backs like they do in Israel but unfortunately people get too comfortable with our rights. They need to be woken up. But the real reason, the sad truth is that it's easier not to believe the truth. The truth is that we all need guns. Its just like ever since I joined THR I've been a little more paranoid. Thats not to say that paranoid is bad. I always knew the truth, but I needed a little reminder. Turns out that the Jews along with the rest of the world have a short term memory problem.
(sorry for the super long post, I just get passionate about certain things)

Good post. I meant nothing against Jews, like I said I was raised Jewish myself and my dad owned firearms, my mother was actually against them and a German convert to Judaism (my father was born Jewish).

The reason I asked is that I visit a few racist sites every now and then, not for enjoyment or pleasure, just because I like to see what other people are saying and I was surprised how many people blamed Jews for gun control and how "they were afraid of them". I didn't agree 100 percent with them as like you said, Israel has one of the toughest military in the world. Something I have noticed though especially where I grew up in Chicago is that the majority of Jews were democrat, they were against Zionism, they believed in minority and illegal alien rights, that sort of thing. As a result many were anti-gun, heck when I told some of my old Jewish friends I had bought a gun they had responded with comments like "Why on earth would you buy a gun?! Those things kill people!" and just the rediculous generic comments of surprise. I researched a lot of organizations and was really surprised how many Jewish organizations were against gun control, yet at the same time i've seen many Jews who are pro gun ownership as well. It was not meant as a question to profile but rather to get some answers to the "myths" floating around out there I guess.

Michael Zeleny
December 12, 2006, 08:56 PM
There is no Jewish hunting tradition, owing to the halakhic requirements for humane slaughter of animals and ban on their cruel treatment. We are taught to identify with the hunted, not with the hunters.

Throughout three millennia of dwelling as a pariah minority amidst the gentiles, the traditional Jewish response to pagan, Christian, and Moslem persecution has favored paying off their persecutors, on the assumption that they would not be dumb enough to kill the goose that keeps laying golden eggs. The logical conclusion of this survival strategy is incisively documented in Raul Hilberg's treatise, The Destruction of the European Jews. In spite of this fiasco, Jewish disdain for self-defense and political autonomy continues as a matter of self-loathing and inertia.

mordechaianiliewicz
December 12, 2006, 09:06 PM
I don't know why. But I've known maybe 12 Muslims in my life. All except one were pro-gun except for one that was a die hard socialist-anarchist (don't ask, I don't understand it either). Why? Because they are all worried that the actions of the terrorists will lead to the American government attempting to wipe them all out.

What if that action was taken and the French (big fans of gun control) took them all in. Might they become anti-gun because they saw their new home as a big Muslim haven? Possibly. In fact, probably.

Maybe Jews in New York are alot more New York than they are Jewish. Think about the fact as stated before that Jews accepted the FDR platform. Also think of the fact that many Jews in the US think of the United States as a haven where something like the holocaust can't happen.

Well, as for myself, I believe a holocaust can happen anywhere. It doesn't have to be because of your religion, it can be because of any reason that the perpetrators want it to be. Look at the USSR, there were 30 million people killed!

Simply because they didn't agree with what the government believed, (or atleast someone said they did not). And after the 20th century, I'd think it should be proof that a person with arms is alot safer than one without.

But, I'm Jewish, and I'm extremely pro-gun. And most of the fellow Jews I know are actually ambivalent to the issue, and I think the real reason is where I live.

Standing Wolf
December 12, 2006, 09:14 PM
PILMAN:

I'll stand corrected. Thanks for the information, eh?

gunsmith
December 12, 2006, 09:21 PM
The Jewish are not keen on hunting, perhaps thats part of it.
I am mostly Irish, and on St Stephens day in the rural areas
of Ireland they get drunk and shoot at things (so they have a hunting tradition)
It seems though that the Irish are very liberal and against guns as well.

Also I think the largest Jewish population in the USA is probably NYC, and NYC has a long anti gun tradition as well.

PILMAN
December 12, 2006, 09:24 PM
Damn so i'm violating torah by hunting? :(

Cosmoline
December 12, 2006, 09:35 PM
As I understand it, the problem is not hunting per se, but rather that most large and medium size game taken that way would not be kosher. It's a doctrine that only applies to Jews, of course.

Plus, most Jews are urban with urban roots going back centuries here and in Europe. Most of them have no tradition of hunting. This is also why most Jews are blue staters and anti-gun. It literally comes with the territory. That said, I know a lot of Jews, particularly the Orthodox Chabadniks, who pack heat and aren't opposed to the RKBA at all. The mainstream Jewish organizations generally do not speak for the Orthodox. In fact, they are led by more "progressive" Jews who follow the Conservative or Reform branches. They have embraced the same liberal dogma that most among the urban intelligentsia have embraced.

Michael Zeleny
December 12, 2006, 09:38 PM
Damn so i'm violating torah by hunting? :( Yes. (http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_c/bl_hunting.htm)

James T Thomas
December 12, 2006, 09:41 PM
Dear PILMAN; Shalom!

I had posted seveal months ago about seeing four or five Jewish groups, some even wore the Yarmulke (SP?), and several were families, at the state game land shooting range when I was there. And you know what the sense of what was going on? Fear! It was not pleasant to contemplate what was going on in the shooter's minds as the dads instructed their wives, daughters and sons to shoot; it did not have they atmosphere of a recreational outing. I'm supposing this came about by recent attacks on Synagogues and several killers (these animals were not killed themselves, but arrested) -who openly stated they wanted to kill Jews.

Ask your parents to look up the passage in the old Hebrew history book that states: "was there a shield or a spear seen amoung fourtythousand in Israel?"
In another passage it states that the Philistines/ Palestinians did not permit the Jews to sharpen their farming tools for fear that they would forge swords and spears! That is part of your tradition. I'm supposing it came about, at least in part during the Babylonian/ Iraq / Iran captivities where the Rabbinical authority developed. The exiles were enslaved and those who survived found that investing in higher education, which the captors esteemed, to the point where it takes on a religious quality, enabled them to survive and even prosper. Those who thought like this were "remnants."

I think that same viewpoint exists here today in the USA; especially in NYC where the Jewish popluation exceeds the entire population of Israel itself.
You "need" a gun because you are Jewish.

You might mention to your parents also that it was a Jewish financier who bankrolled most of the American Revolution when congress was not forthcoming with funds to George Washinton and our army. He was never repaid by the way.

How about the Jews who fought the NAZI's in the Warsaw ghetto?
Out of the six million who died in the death camps if one in ten was an able bodied man and was armed and fought them, who knows? Perhaps the war would have ended sooner and many lives saved.

If someone tries to disarm me "they will have to pry my gun out of my cold dead hands."

dustind
December 12, 2006, 09:47 PM
Sorry that I do not have enough time to be more helpful, but this was discusses before. A search should find some of it. Andrew Rothman and Joel Rosemberg's journals talk about this. They are both Jewish members here. Come to think of it, they are both Jewish when they aren't here. :neener:

I know the lack of a rural background was given as a reason once.

Cosmoline
December 12, 2006, 09:50 PM
Hunting for entertainment or sport is forbidden, but if it is done to protect a settlement or obtain furs for the furrier trade it's a different matter. That hunting isn't done for sport but for survival, and so long as no non-kosher meat is eaten there is NO prohibition against it. Otherwise the long tradition of Jewish furriers would not have been possible.

A lot of the anti-hunting rhetoric you find from Jews has nothing to do with religion. It's the same nonsense you get from most urbanites these days.

Pro_Gun
December 12, 2006, 09:57 PM
more here and I did not read it so I can't vouch for the content.

http://www.jpfo.org/jewsandguncontrol.htm

sfhogman
December 12, 2006, 10:04 PM
Also, here:
http://www.gunownersalliance.com/AskTheRabbi.htm

arthurcw
December 12, 2006, 10:39 PM
It seems like most religious groups have equated being holy and non violent with being helpless and unable to defend one’s self

I can’t for the life of me see a religious reason to hate guns. “Thou shalt not kill,” ends when someone tries to kill you or harm your family.

What I really don’t understand is that, given how “lovely” the world has treated the Jews (not just in the 20th century) it would seem to me that they would be the first group to say, “From my cold dead hands.”

Shanghai McCoy
December 12, 2006, 10:56 PM
I'd label myself a lapsed pagan,if anything,and I am VERY pro gun and could not care less what religion anyone else is.You are either pro 2nd Amendment or against and who what or where you worship is irrelevent.

Str8Shooter
December 12, 2006, 10:58 PM
This is an outstanding article on the subject: http://www.jpfo.org/alert20010903.htm

Here's another paradox I keep wondering about: I would assume that most American Jews feel at least some amount of attachment or kinship to the nation of Israel, yet so many vote for the liberal politicians who would most like to withdraw U.S. support from that nation. :confused:

Michael Zeleny
December 12, 2006, 11:11 PM
What I really don’t understand is that, given how “lovely” the world has treated the Jews (not just in the 20th century) it would seem to me that they would be the first group to say, “From my cold dead hands.”So it would seem to a reasonable man. But the traditional Jewish response is just the opposite. Here is how Raul Hilberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raul_Hilberg) put it: "I had to examine the Jewish tradition of trusting God, princes, laws and contracts [...] Ultimately I had to ponder the Jewish calculation that the persecutor would not destroy what he could economically exploit. It was precisely this Jewish strategy that dictated accommodation and precluded resistance." But the gentile world still expects its Jews to vest their trust in God, princes, laws and contracts. This remains so even in America, the society historically and politically unexcelled in its scope and degree of tolerance and accommodation of dissent and diversity.

squinn14
December 12, 2006, 11:23 PM
Doesn't the state of Israel have one of the highest rates of civilian gun ownership in the world?

Michael Zeleny
December 12, 2006, 11:34 PM
Doesn't the state of Israel have one of the highest rates of civilian gun ownership in the world?Israel makes it very hard (http://www.jpfo.org/israel-firearms.htm) for civilians to have guns.

SniperStraz
December 12, 2006, 11:39 PM
First off: James T Thomas, I know this isn’t the place, but Philistine and “Palestinian” are two very different things. PM me if you need more info.

Cosmoline: As an observant religious Jew I can tell you with utmost confidence that killing an animal for any reason other than to eat it, for survival, or because it is a threat to you or those around you it is against Jewish law.

Moving on: I don’t know if this means anything to you guys, but I would dare to say that there are more guns in my synagogue on Saturday than most churches on Sunday. This is not to say that I think there are enough Jews with guns by any means. More Jews with guns would be great, but we Jews do take pretty good care of ourselves for the most part. That isn’t just in GA either. But there’s always that Jewish politician who has to make a bunch of noise for no reason. There are all kinds of Jews, but I think that most Jews that say “I don’t need a gun” probably have a .38 in their closet somewhere.
My .02

Durruti
December 12, 2006, 11:41 PM
Here's another paradox I keep wondering about: I would assume that most American Jews feel at least some amount of attachment or kinship to the nation of Israel, yet so many vote for the liberal politicians who would most like to withdraw U.S. support from that nation.


Is there much of a movement among liberal politicians to remove support for Israel? I haven't seen anything like that. Israel has gotten pretty solid support from both parties for decades.

PILMAN
December 13, 2006, 12:14 AM
Is there much of a movement among liberal politicians to remove support for Israel? I haven't seen anything like that. Israel has gotten pretty solid support from both parties for decades.

Most of the liberal Jews are the ones who "expose" Israel to make her look bad. Basically they are anti-zionist and claim Israel occupys Palestinian land (which really isn't recognized as land owned by anyone) and it really baffles me to be honest with you that any Jew would be against a Jewish state.

Also on posession of a firearm, it's very difficult to get a firearm however if you are a settler in the territorys then you can own a handgun, if you are a reservist you can own a handgun or a rifle.

mordechaianiliewicz
December 13, 2006, 12:27 AM
Think of the fact that before we tried toget educations to make ourselves valuable to the gentiles, we herded goats, sheep, cows. We were a pastoral people who had much control over how, when and why our livestock would die. While hunting and killing animals in a modern fashion may be very humane and safe, and we may properly bleed the animals, and whatnot, well, it isn't kashrut.

Myself I only went hunting once, brought up the topic with my rabbi who told me why he didn't so much care either way about my owning guns, but did say that hunting isn't strictly kosher, and explained it using the Torah, and I haven't hunted since.

Granted, I am Reform, and it wasn't exactly a glaring "this is wrong." But I asked if it was kosher, and he explained to me that it isn't and explained the opinion, so I took it.

That being said, I have never owned guns for the purpose of hunting per se, so it wasn't exactly a big loss for me.

kd7nqb
December 13, 2006, 12:41 AM
I asked the same opposite question. I see groups like JPFO and I assumed it was kinda the tin foil hat croud all over again, I still support them becasue the overall mission is a postive one.

Michael Zeleny
December 13, 2006, 12:42 AM
That being said, I have never owned guns for the purpose of hunting per se, so it wasn't exactly a big loss for me.The loss belongs to the entire nation. The Jews came to liberal capitalism from ancient subservience and mediaeval segregation, untempered by any vestiges of aristocratic values. Within their spectrum, hunting is an expression of man's dominion over nature. Repudiating it is all of a piece with our passive legacy of submission.

woerm
December 13, 2006, 01:12 AM
naa,

One shot, one kill,

that's why I use a .308/30-06

So far nothing in the sights has a much as wiggled after the arrivial of the messenger.

the rabbinic charge, ie the Talmud, not the Torah per se, IIRC translates something like 'be humane'.


however I am so *not* a rabbi, the above is tranlated from one of guys I used to hunt with.

r

Cosmoline
December 13, 2006, 02:13 AM
Cosmoline: As an observant religious Jew I can tell you with utmost confidence that killing an animal for any reason other than to eat it, for survival, or because it is a threat to you or those around you it is against Jewish law.

How is it observant Jews make a living in the fur trade, then? Does survival include economic survival? Maybe you can specify what prohibition it violates.

SniperStraz
December 13, 2006, 03:56 AM
It violates a prohibition with origins in a law that states that the taking of a limb from a living creature and eating it is unlawful. (Eyver Min Ha'Chai) Also from the learnings that Esau used to enjoy hunting not only for food but just for the kill making him a Rasha or evil man.

Cosmoline
December 13, 2006, 04:02 AM
But the prohibition against taking the limb of a living creature, which is one of the Noahide laws, does not as I understand it prohibit hunting. It prohibits the pagan practice of butchering still-living animals. Put another way, there is no prohibition I know of prohibiting non-Jews from hunting. Hunting for entertainment purposes is clearly forbidden, but other than the dietary issues what is there that prohibits hunting for food or commerce? Thus, if a Noahide hunts for food and the full dietary laws do not apply to him, since he is not a Jew, is he doing something forbidden? Or, put another way, if a Jew shoots a fur bearing animal to make a coat for trade, is he violating the law?

SniperStraz
December 13, 2006, 04:12 AM
The extent of my knowledge pretty much ends here. :uhoh: As far as I know it is forbidden for Jews to hunt for any reason other than to save their own lives or the lives of those around them. If you are truely interested I would be happy to speak with my rabbi about it and get better sources to better answer your questions.

Cosmoline
December 13, 2006, 04:14 AM
I'm probably straying too far from firearms. I've discussed this with several Jews and it's an interesting topic. It seems to be difficult to divorce cultural traditions from religious edicts when it comes to hunting. It's the same in some ways for the Sikhs.

vito
December 13, 2006, 07:47 AM
Pretty much every angle of this has been covered, but I thought of adding one item. The commandmant usually expressed as "thou shalt not kill" is really a mis-translation of the original Aramaic. A clearer translation is "thou shalt not murder". Killing in self defense is not murder and thus not a violation of the commandmant.

That said, I must admit that in my entire extended family of Jewish relatives, to my knowledge I am the only one who owns and uses firearms. I am looked at as the oddity of the family, that they assume is a result of my having served over 20 years in the military. Of course, virtually all of this extended family lives in highly urbanized areas, where gun control is the accepted politically correct position.

The Real Hawkeye
December 13, 2006, 08:27 AM
Why do Jews seem to be, generally speaking, antigun? Probably has something to do with the fact that Jews are usually not people who work close to the land, where guns seem quite natural tools. For various historical reasons, Jews are not usually farmers or ranchers of any sort, and have few if any ancestors who were, so the gun culture is just not in them. Their experience of guns is from those they observed possessed by either cops or robbers. If they are not a cop, they don't feel they need, or should have, a gun. Therefore, if YOU are not a cop, YOU don't need one either, and shouldn't have one. I think it's pretty close to being that simple.

You get some odd contradictions, though. Growing up, my parents, who are not Jewish, had a couple of best friends who were, i.e., another couple they hung out with a lot, and vacationed with a lot, and the husband did all our braces when we were kids, and my father was their doctor. Well, they were about as far to the left as you get in voting patterns, and my folks would occasionally discuss it with them, and sometimes they'd be persuaded to the conservative position, but it never seemed to effect their voting patterns. Marvin once confessed that they all get their voting instructions at Temple meetings, and it's always to vote for the most leftist candidate, i.e., the Democrat. It's phrased to them as a moral imperative, so they feel guilty not doing it, even if they don't necessarily agree.

Well, anyway. Even though this guy and his wife always voted for the most leftist candidate, he had a huge collection of unregistered classic handguns (both revolvers and autos) hidden in the walls of his house. He was very definitely in favor of banning all civilian owned handguns, mind you, but he wanted to keep his, and this is in New York State, where the law looks at unregistered handguns in exactly the same way as bags of cocaine. Anyway, one day, when I was an adult and a known expert in all things firearms (at least to non-firearm people), he brought his whole collection to me to evaluate their value on the market. I told him that because they are not registered, in New York State they were only worth what he could get for them selling to crooks on the street, which is not much. He decided to put them all back in his walls and forget about selling them. But isn't that a weird contradiction?

Keith Wheeler
December 13, 2006, 08:44 AM
Damn so i'm violating torah by hunting?

Well, there's always Reform... :D

On Israel:

Yes, it is very hard to own a gun in Israel. Carrying one is a different matter. I'm not sure how things are now, but there was a time when those who lived in "at risk" areas could be issued a state-owned weapon for defense. And if you are one of those folks who does get approval to have your own, you can open carry most anywhere.

On <insert religion here> being against firearms:

I bet if you go look at the official platforms of most major religions, they will come out in favor of gun control. Well, except for the Mormons I'd guess.

Something folks need to understand: most American Jews are "Reform" (please no Jewish in-fighting here). The official viewpoint of the URJ (http://www.urj.org/) is a combination of the commandment to "be a light to the nations" and classical progressive American socially liberal "do good". Some excellent ideas, IMHO -- feed the hungry, freedom for all -- mixed in with some insane feel good non-sense "ban guns to make the world a safer place" sort of thing. Reform is primarily an American and European phenomena, it's different in Israel. Most Israelis view firearms as mere tools, something to be used when needed. A friend of mine was relating a story of having worked on a kibbutz, and that none of the Israeli born folks had any interest in taking care of the weapons locker -- it was just a dirty chore.

Most Conservative and Orthodox Jews don't have the issues with firearms ownership that Reform (officially) do; however the Ultra-Orthodox are often disconnected from such discussions. If it ain't Torah, it don't matter to them.

Something I've noticed in Reform congregations: 1) Many of the older men own firearms, and 2) a lot of the younger people are interested in learning to shoot. Of course a lot of the younger people are interested in learning Hebrew and other traditional things that Reform pushed aside in the early years of its existence. The majority of our young people visit Israel; they come back full of repsect and admiration for the M4 carrying IDF men and women. The older gents, particularly here in the south, grew up shooting. There's a group of fellows here who go to the range every now and then and call themselves "Guns 'n' Moses".

It seems to be difficult to divorce cultural traditions from religious edicts when it comes to hunting.

Yep, it's the connection of cultural norms and religious teachings, and with Judaism you've got centuries of tradition and interpretation. The problem is that kashrut (the collection of kosher law/tradition) requires animals to be slaughtered in a certain way, and these traditions are based on the desire to slaughter as humanely as possible, and to remove all blood. Forget the ritual and technique involved; when hunting you can't guarantee a "humane" kill. Of course again you have a wide range of practice when dealing with Judaism, from those who don't care about being kosher, to people who say "it's a kosher animal, it's ok shechita or not", to those who will not touch meat unless a shochet, under the supervision of a rabbi, handled the slaughter. (Note: I'm not saying hunting is wrong or inhumane, just explaining the traditional Jewish viewpoint on hunting.)

Edited to add:

How is it observant Jews make a living in the fur trade, then? Does survival include economic survival? Maybe you can specify what prohibition it violates.

An issue that has caused both internal and external tensions with regards to Judaism over the centuries. If someone else does the killing, is it ok for me to trade in such items? Torah/Talmud says I shouldn't hunt, but it doesn't say I can't buy and sell materials resulting from Goyim who do. Some would claim hypocritical; others would use this as an example of how Jews realize that the law applies to them only, and not others. It gets complicated, and downright silly sometimes. There's a story of a Jewish gangster who refused to kill somebody on Saturday because it was wrong for him to "work on Shabbat".

svtruth
December 13, 2006, 08:44 AM
but we still don't understand the basic question, "why would any group, collectively or individually, with a history of violent persecution forego personal means of defense?"

Master Blaster
December 13, 2006, 08:56 AM
Most Gun control advocates in Congress and the Senate are Christians.

There are at least 10 times as many non Jews who push gun control as there are Jews in total.

Kindly dont tar my religion with gun control, of the Jews I know most own Guns.

The Real Hawkeye
December 13, 2006, 09:03 AM
of the Jews I know most own Guns.Come to think of it, that's my experience too, but all the Jews I know (one of whom is an ex Marine, an Ex cop, and currently an FBI Special Agent) also vote for candidates who would outlaw civilian ownership of firearms. There seems to be a disconnect there.

Keith Wheeler
December 13, 2006, 09:05 AM
but we still don't understand the basic question, "why would any group, collectively or individually, with a history of violent persecution forego personal means of defense?"

Because some people, no matter how irrational or not, believe that it is possible to do away with weapons altogether, and as such prevent any future violent persecution.

Now, was that a description of some American Jews, or of some women's rights groups?

Axman
December 13, 2006, 10:31 AM
I've met Baptists who "can't abide them things" and Baptists who are predictably sick the first week of hunting season every year.

I'm a Baptist. I also interpret the "Thou shalt not kill" a little differently. I feel that this is not meant in a defense situation, only in a cold or blood lust situation. As far as hunting, animals are food! Praise the Lord and pass the A-1!


And if you want scriptures...

On Hunting

Gen 27:1 And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see, he called Esau his eldest son, and said unto him, My son: and he said unto him, Behold, here am I. 2 And he said, Behold now, I am old, I know not the day of my death: 3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison; 4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die. 5 And Rebekah heard when Isaac spake to Esau his son. And Esau went to the field to hunt for venison, and to bring it. 6 And Rebekah spake unto Jacob her son, saying, Behold, I heard thy father speak unto Esau thy brother, saying, 7 Bring me venison, and make me savoury meat, that I may eat, and bless thee before the LORD before my death.

On the second amendment, yes, the second amendment...

Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouths, and a two-edged sword in their hands; 7 To give the nations the reward of their sins, and the peoples their punishment; 8 To put their kings in chains, and their rulers in bands of iron; 9 To give them the punishment which is in the holy writings: this honour is given to all his saints. Praise be to the Lord.

mountaindrew
December 13, 2006, 11:02 AM
Leviticus chapter19 Verse 16: Do not be a tale-bearer among your people. You shall not stand idly by [when] the blood (life) of your fellow [is in danger]. I am Ad-noy. (from the Chumash)

This is what many Jews forget. There is a Torah mitvah and a Rabinic ordinance that a person. [I]must[I] intervene to save a life, either thier own or others, assuming they do not have to die to do it.

Torah does not imply or demand people to be sheep, helpless to the slaughter.

Taking nessesary steps to ensure the ability to prevent death (ie responsible firearms ownership) is a part of this commandment.

PILMAN
December 13, 2006, 02:49 PM
This is something else I considered.

I was having a discussion with an Israeli friend of mine who served in the IDF and he was explaining about Israel being very liberal, in support of a Palestinian state to create security (which I think is just a false sense of security). It seems a large ammount of Israel today is very secular many even Atheist. This friend I talked with is actually Agnostic but believes the Jewish people are a race rather than a religion. Granted I can't say i'm recognized by white by Nazis as I am mixed race (mothers a German convert, fathers from Uzbekistan and Jewish) I still fail to see how Jews would be considered a race though many may be tied to the original Israelis.

On the topic of guns anyways, this Israeli friend of mine I talked with I asked him various questions about the IDF and he hated talking about it. Most of the IDF guys I talked with didn't understand why I would even want a gun and feel there is no need for it, I asked him a bit about the gun laws in Israel as well. He basically said there is no need to own a gun in Israel unless you live on a settlement and you need a reason to own one, he stated that he feels safer in Israel than he does in New York and that the only people really carrying guns are those that are police or reservists. I guess some do get guns illegally from the bedouin arabs living in the negev however. He stated that if the Jews were armed, that some of the extremeists would probably try to kill the Arabs and that's possibly why the government doesn't allow it.

Something I found interesting however is someone mentioned conservatives were normally not too welcoming of Jews when they first started coming to America and the liberal movement was protecting them (though there were Jews who served in the confederate military). As a result they felt the liberals were their friends. However I look at most of Europe today, and no offense if we have any British people on the forums but many of the Brits appear to be anti-gun and say "you don't need a gun" rather than question us. It seems like a large chunk of Europe is similar. I do know pro gun Jews, and I know many Jews who are anti gun (yet own guns) or some that wouldn't touch a gun with a 10 foot pole.

I look at it this way, I am a Jew either way and I am paranoid, I really don't trust too many people and have received death threats, some serious, some not very serious at all to some people however I still take threats serious. I choose to be armed for various reasons. I think the most powerful image I saw was on "a-human-right.com"

http://www.a-human-right.com/s_colors3.jpg

a holocaust can happen anywhere and I think it's one of the main reasons my father owned so many guns himself.

Another reason is I simply enjoy guns, I don't see a reason why any guns should be restricted or regulated as long as we're law abiding citizens. However when we have politicians who have Jewish background and they are anti-gun, I just want to give them a nice slap in the face because they obviously don't realize that they are creating more anti-semitism and that they are disarming the law abiding citizens. The general stereotype where I live is when someone thinks of a Jew, they think of a hippy peace loving money loving anti gun religious person with a funny beard, big nose and runs porn sites. I don't like to be thought of that way.

Michael Zeleny
December 13, 2006, 03:14 PM
but we still don't understand the basic question, "why would any group, collectively or individually, with a history of violent persecution forego personal means of defense?"Self-defense goes hand in hand with repudiation of Jewishness in diaspora. The hopeful exception is Jewish thriving in America. Our political culture is unique in endorsing and protecting the individual right to legitimate use of physical force. Elsewhere, acquiescence and accommodation are bargains that Jews are expected to make with their group identity. Their deal is to protect their status within a gentile nation through acceding to official extortion. When its stops working, as it did in Spain in 1492 or in Germany in 1933, the rabbinically sanctioned response is to flee or die.

Keith Wheeler
December 13, 2006, 03:17 PM
I prefer what my rabbi told me: "You know what the 11th commandment is? Survive. Without that the rest are meaningless."

Michael Zeleny
December 13, 2006, 03:37 PM
I prefer what my rabbi told me: "You know what the 11th commandment is? Survive. Without that the rest are meaningless."This commandment has nothing to do with self-defense. Its sanction is for cowering at the feet of your oppressors. The alternative is knowing and honoring values that trump the instinct for survival. One such value is embodied in the Second Amendment.

Keith Wheeler
December 13, 2006, 03:55 PM
Its sanction is for cowering at the feet of your oppressors.

Wow. I didn't realize you were in rabbi's office too. Next time speak up!

We had been discussing Jewish Resistance in Nazi Occupied Eastern Europe and how the lack of arms dramatically affected the lack of resistance, and therefore survival.

george29
December 13, 2006, 04:08 PM
Gee, I'd like to end this thread; here goes. Jesus was a decendant of David, David was from the "House of Judah" (from where the word Ju or known today as Jew comes from). There were eleven more sons who were "Hebrews" and not "Jews". Today, we call all "Hebrews"; "Jews", because we canot diffrentiate them nor can they differentiate themselves. (Excuse the spelling, I have been hitting the bottle hard as I have an abssessed tooth and the Dentist can only see me tomorrow and I hate aspirin). Moslems are also from the same lineage (Abraham) and I have no idea where Buddhists and others popped-up from. FWIW; Jews, Christians and Moslems are all cousins, and everyone knows that there is no more dangerous scenerio than responding to a "domestic violence" call. Back to GentlemanJack, boss couldn't look at my lopsided face. http://www.twelvetribes.com/whereweare/
http://www.britam.org/proof3.html
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/avisamuel/jack.jpg

Walkalong
December 13, 2006, 04:22 PM
After what Hitler did to the Jewish people I can not understand any Jew not having a gun and beind solidly pro gun/anti big government!
Bogels my mind. :banghead:

AirForceShooter
December 13, 2006, 04:29 PM
Ok:
here I go again. I'm a jew. A jew that was taught to kill by our governemnt, and did so.
My wonderful (dripping sarcasm) are liberal, New Yorkers that viewed me as a total wacko. Until one sunny day we were having some family gettogether and the family was once again on my butt, yes I was armed. And out of thew blue my little grandfather just stood up. We always knew he had numbers on his arm but he NEVER spoke of it, ever. He looked at every one in the room and shut them all up. Then he said somthing that I will remember to the day I die. "If we had had guns in the Warsaw Gehtto a lot of jews would still be alive. Good my grandson knows how to kill". No one ever knew he was part of the uprising.
It was a very quiet family dinner and for the first time I my life I didn't have to put up with "why do you need a gun"? Gramps answered it for me.
When we got ready to leave I put on my dress blues and stood in front of Gramps and snapped to the best attention I ever did and saluted him. Yeah, I cried too.

I wish Gramps had told that story long before that , but I'll take it anyplace.

No, I don't talk to my family at all any more.

AFS

19-3Ben
December 13, 2006, 04:32 PM
Jewish kid, raised in a traditional Orthodox home checking in here.
Dad always had 'em. Carried to synagogue, and I do too now.

My grandparents on my mother's side are Holocaust survivors. My grandfather, while he was alive supported the fact that my fahter owned guns, although he said that it wouldn't make a difference in the end. He said, you might take out one or two soldiers if they come for you, but realistically, they'll have you by the balls. If they take you out, you know they'll rape and torture your wife and children. And if you run, where will you go? They are waiting for you around the next street, and in the next town. I see his logic, but I'd still rather go down fighting. He also never said that it wasn't still the better option. He just pointed out how it's easier said than done. I hope my wife/kids would not be taken alive.

But that's enough of that. I am a member of JPFO, love shooting, and in fact even started up a target shooting club while i was an undergrad at a primarily Jewish university in Boston.

Michael Zeleny
December 13, 2006, 04:33 PM
We had been discussing Jewish Resistance in Nazi Occupied Eastern Europe and how the lack of arms dramatically affected the lack of resistance, and therefore survival.This is exactly backwards. The will to fight is a necessary and sufficient condition for fighting. Weapons are merely its tools. Imbuing them with causal powers is the principal fallacy that inspires gun banners. We are supposed to know better.

The lack of resistance that characterized the Holocaust both preceded and ensured the lack of arms among its Jewish victims. The Warsaw Ghetto rebellion happened because a small fraction of its inmates decided to fight. The few guns that they were able to procure enabled them to resist for 27 days against overwhelming odds. But Jewish acquiescence in Nazi extermination far exceeded the few instances of resistance. Many more Jews carried arms in the ghettoes to police them on behalf of their Nazi oppressors, than took them up in order to fight them.

GEM
December 13, 2006, 08:25 PM
Read the article I wrote in my sig - Academic shooter to get my take on. I think many of you are missing an important point that the part of the gun culture in the USA has had values antithetical or even hostile to Jews.

This is a dark side of conservative culture that many won't like to look at. If guns were associated with cultural values that were prejudiced, they did not have value.

But read the article for a fuller take.

tellner
December 13, 2006, 10:54 PM
There's a number of reasons.

First, there's hunting. Jews generally lived in places where there wasn't a lot of hunting. Either they were in cities or they were in countries where hunting was a privilege which was forbidden to them. A tradition of hunting makes a lot of difference. For the observant there's another piece. A hunter would either have to catch the prey alive and then slaughter it in accordance with halacha or hunt merely for the pleasure of the chase and kill. The first is very difficult. The second is considered to be cruel and barbaric.

Second, Jews were forbidden the ownership of arms almost everywhere at almost all times. The ghetto, the shtetl and the laws governing dimmis all agreed that Jews would never be armed. Those of you who talk about "cowering in terror at the feet of a tyrant" or "fighting back against the oppressor" or "heading for the hills when SHTF" or any of the rest of those hairy-chested bromides need to re-examine your biases.

Most of you come from a time and place where you and your ancestors were the majority. The government was yours. You are citizens. "Normal" means people more or less like you. You grew up with the idea that you had rights and that it was only some alien and un-natural government that might take them away. One of those rights was the right to have weapons and to kill people when necessary.

For Jews at almost all times and in almost all places that wasn't even close to true. They were a tiny minority, almost never citizens, restricted in their movements, their actions, even the jobs they could have, where they could live and the clothes they could wear. They couldn't own property. They couldn't give testimony in courts. They might be taken away to serve a forced 20 year hitch in the Czar's army, but that isn't exactly the same as having a gun of your own to protect your rights.

Waving your gun around and talking about how you had rights that the Czar or the King or the Emir had to respect was a great way to die and take your entire community with you. The way to survive was to band together, preserve your culture, keep your head down and find a way to earn a living that could be moved with you during the next expulsion. There were uprisings here and there. Sometimes they were behind a Messianic figure. Sometimes they were for the usual reasons. They all ended the same way.

There have been times and places which practiced greater tolerance for Jews and made assimilation without total repudiation of G-d and culture possible. Jews as a people have learned to be happy for such things but never take them for granted. The threat of the pogrom is always there. German, Austrian and French Jews in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries often assimilated and thought of themselves as Germans, Austrians or Frenchmen first, Jews second or third if that. Comes the Dreyfuss Affair or 'Dolf and His All Boy Marching Band they found out that they were Jews.

America has certainly been one of the better places for the Jews. For the most part the majority has graciously extended all the benefits of citizenship to us. But old habits die hard. And the days of quotas, "No Jews allowed", closed neighborhoods and "Due to the distance from Catholic houses of worship only Protestants will be considered for this position" are well within living memory.

It is no accident that the extreme Right in this country - the Klan, the Conservative Citizen's Council (formerly the White Citizen's Council), the Christian Patriots Defense League and the rest have as one of their bedrock tenets the removal of Jewish citizenship and civil rights. Scratch Pat Buchanan and you find Father Coughlin. Look at the Louisiana Republican Party and David Duke's smirking countenance looks back at you. The Dominionists, Dispensationalists, Christian Embassy, megachurches and US Air Force Academy just to name a few believe that citizenship only belongs to Christians and evangelical Protestants at that. All of the groups mentioned in the last sentence wield terrific political power under the current government. Even the Christian Zionist groups who just love the Jews want us all to be shipped to Israel so that Arabs can kill us and allow Jesus to come back and end the world.

These are also disproportionally the groups that own guns.

It's not hard to see why guns are something alien to most Jews. It's not hard to see that they are generally considered the tools of the people who hate us. The tools that have helped us survive are reason, community, education, a moral code and a capacity for self renewal and group identity in times of persecution. None of these has much to do with guns. This has, perhaps, been taken too far in America at this time.

I'm a bit of an outlier among my tribesmen. As long as we are still legally citizens I want to take every advantage of that status. And I do not believe there is anywhere left to flee, so self defense by the strongest legal means is a matter of survival. The Deacons for Defense made a very good point. Bullies like victims. They don't do so well when you fight back, particularly if you are willing to do worse to them than they planned on doing to you. Their cowardice is a large part of why they are bullies. Black people made up a much greater portion of the South than Jews ever did, but the point is well taken.

A good friend of mine sometimes asks "Are you an American Jew or a Jew who lives in America?" My answer is always the same. I'm a patriotic American Jew right up until the rest of America decides I'm just a Jew who lives here. When that happens I won't live here any more and it won't be America.

Don't Tread On Me
December 14, 2006, 02:05 AM
There's no correlation between religion and the RKBA in my view.


However, Jews as a religion/nation should probably be the most pro-RKBA people in the world, given their history of being oppressed for literally thousands of years.


The world isn't a kind gentle place. You have to fight to get what you need, and you must fight to keep it. No one is going to give you anything for free. Freedom isn't free. Don't we say that in America all the time?


Pacifism is anti-God in my opinion, as it leads to your people being subjugated, and consequently, forced away from your free-will. Free-will is the basis for most religions. If I can say something is somewhat universal about religions, it is that God wants you to obey/pray/follow him. Not some tyrant or master. You can't follow your religion when a master tells you it is banned, illegal or forces you to convert, causing your children to lose their faith through generations. Thus, pacifism leads to the destruction of the religion/nation.


See my signature below.

Michael Zeleny
December 14, 2006, 02:53 AM
Every Jewish community that came to be destroyed between 1939 and 1945, had inherited the benefits of civil rights and political franchise conferred upon them between 1789 and 1918. Most of them wasted no time in taking advantage of the levelled playing field. As Niall Ferguson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_Ferguson) recounts in The War of the World: Twentieth-Century Conflict and the Descent of the West, by 1893, 31% of the richest families in Germany and 22% of all Prussian millionnaires were Jewish. Although Jews accounted for less than 1% of German population, by the second quarter of the XXth century one in nine German doctors and one in six German lawyers was a Jew. Jews were similarly over-represented in nearly all of Germany's other elite occupational groups such as newspaper editors, journalists, theater directors, and academics. The only exception to their advancement was evidenced in Jewish under-representation in the German army's officer corps. This fatal lack of martial ambitions is reflected in the Jewish response to German persecution. It is no accident that by 1933 its demonstrated aptitude for social and economic progress and excellence in arts and sciences was sustained by a community spirit stunted in military prowess and political ambitions. The gentiles are not to blame for this predicament. As Raul Hilberg points out, it is a natural consequence of the Jewish tradition of trusting God and princes, laws and contracts. So is Jewish support for gun control.

Cosmoline
December 14, 2006, 03:41 AM
It's also worth remembering that prior to WWII, the Jews of Europe and endured and survived countless pogroms and relocations from one end of the continent to the other. In East Europe in particular, periodic attacks on the community were an expected, if unwelcome, cycle. The Czar or Count or Prince would scapegoat the Jews for the latest troubles and send the military through to roust them out and push them around. The local gentiles would join in the fun. While there were most certainly murders and deaths during these cycles, the Jewish community always survived and came through in the end. They learned to weather the blows, and they learned those who stood up to the oppression were the first to die. They also learned that for all the hatred towards them, the gentiles needed them and the professions they'd been restricted to.

So when the Germans started concentrating them in the old ghettos or concentration camps, the conventional wisdom was pretty much "this too shall pass." Remember that the concentration camps didn't become death camps until later on. But the old lessons were the wrong ones to follow this time. Unfortunately most Jews didn't realize this until it was far too late.

It's very easy to look back and wonder why they didn't fight back, but you have to ask yourself how far your own legs would be in the boiling water before you knew you were on the menu. Raising the black flag and killing your own nation's cops and soldiers is no small step even for a seasoned fighter. Plus, the kind of partisan fighting we're talking about here is as nasty as it gets. You have to be willing to torture, maim and kill and you can't afford to be too picky about your targets. There are no rules and no quarter. If you can get useful information from that nice Mrs. Johnson from down the road who gave you cookies, you must be willing to slice the soles off her feet and make her dance. To expect people who come from comfortable, ordinary lives to start down that road is pretty unrealistic.

repo
December 14, 2006, 08:02 AM
Here is my slant on it.. I am talking about liberal Jews not Jews in general.

Quarter of my family are Jewish. It's the quarter I rarely speak to and yes they are 100% liberals. The liberal mindset is basically one of "victimhood". They hate anyone who shows any kind of dominance or strength be that the USA, gun owners, oil companies, hunters or whatever UNLESS they are revolting against an even more "opressive" entity. You'll find in the 60s and 70s they passed this philosophy to the Blacks which spawned the racism industry which has made Sharpton, Jackson etc. rich men. If you look at the names of the most vocal college professors and activists from the era they are mostly Jewish.

As for why they are like that I think it is because they have been kicked around so much through out history and the diaspora never had the ability to form any kind of useful army (until modern Israel) that they had to use non-violent means of defense like politics and subversion which kind of fermented into this liberal philosophy.

PILMAN
December 14, 2006, 09:53 AM
Very interesting guys. Thanks for sharing, I guess I can understand it from a perspective now.

I remember telling my Messianic Jewish (Jews for Yeshka) friend about my first gun purchase and she said "Matti, a gun is a peice of metal, in the end G-d will destroy them". I explained the holocaust scenario to her and she was claiming how they are dangerous and if I decided to get drunk what if I got angry I might accidently shoot someone. I mentioned the car scenario to her. Next she said

"Matti, you can't fight a whole army with just a gun, you might kill 1 or 2 of them but in the end a crazed mob will kill you, we should rely on G-d"

At that point I was frustrated and fed up, during the holocaust the Jews relied on G-d and it led them to the slaughter houses.


I guess I was raised in a somewhat pro gun home, ironically my mother was a Jewish convert (She's German background, originally Catholic) and she was anti gun, hated them. My father on the other hand was Jewish and loved guns, he wanted to get us into them. My family was somewhat confused by my fathers love of guns however he was as pro Israel as you could get. Ironically he was raised in a modern Orthodox family as well. I think the conservative and reform movement of Judaism is very similar to the liberal movement and as a result they are generally against guns and more accepting of other things. I just wish we could change the view of most Jews and start to get them armed. Unfortunately where I live I am the only Jew here, but if I ever meet a Jew I will take them to the shooting range just to try to convince them to arm themselves. I know one kid in Pensacola and he is still questioning my need to have a gun and thinks I'm crazy talking about another holocaust, however he has a false sense of security that Jews are always going to be welcome in America. We don't know the future of America because things can always change.

tellner
December 14, 2006, 10:08 AM
Pilman, FYI all Jews are Messianic Jews. The fraudulent co-option of this term by the founders of J4J is only one of their many sins.

CornCod
December 14, 2006, 10:29 AM
The Jews are largely an urban people. Many people who live in urban environments see firearms as something criminals use because there is no hunting or target-shooting tradition, like in rural areas.

Back in Europe, Jewish people and rural people traditionally have not gotten along very well. In Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, many Jews for complex historical reasons had gravitated to the banking/moneylending industry. A Polish farmer would, for example, have a couple of bad seasons and so would borrow money in the hopes that the weather would be better the next year. If it wasn't, then some Jewish fellow would collect on his collateral, in other words, take possession of his farm. Such is the genesis of tragic ethno/religious antagonisms.

Jewish people have long historical memories and thus tend to conflate ruralism with anti-Semitism.

tellner
December 14, 2006, 11:03 AM
Corn Cod, that's not even close to true. In Eastern Europe most Jews were either in poor urban ghettoes or lived in rural villages, the shtetl, and practiced agriculture. In fact, that's where all of my ancestors came from. Christians utterly dominated banking.

The "Jewish bankers" were mostly Mediterranean Jews. In Italy and certain other places money lending, used clothes selling and medicine were the only professions that Jews were allowed to practice.

PILMAN
December 14, 2006, 11:09 AM
Pilman, FYI all Jews are Messianic Jews. The fraudulent co-option of this term by the founders of J4J is only one of their many sins.

How so? I don't believe Yeshua (or Jesus) is the messiah, so a bit confused how all Jews are Messianic?

Henry Bowman
December 14, 2006, 11:13 AM
Keep this thread on topic and civil.

10 Ring Tao
December 14, 2006, 11:13 AM
American Jews are weak jews. I'll have to have my girlfriend type up the story of the old jewish guy who came into her work, and proceded to talk about the Strong Jews after finding out my girlfriend was both jewish and carried daily.

RS2
December 14, 2006, 11:20 AM
American Jews are weak jews. I'll have to have my girlfriend type up the story of the old jewish guy who came into her work, and proceded to talk about the Strong Jews after finding out my girlfriend was both jewish and carried daily.


Some are. Some, like your girlfriend and I, are not.


Where does she work?

Henry Bowman
December 14, 2006, 11:23 AM
For the benefit of this new page:

Keep this thread on topic and civil.


This thread has lasted far longer than most which focus on religion. This has not gone unnoticed by the management.

Michael Zeleny
December 14, 2006, 11:29 AM
In Eastern Europe most Jews were either in poor urban ghettoes or lived in rural villages, the shtetl, and practiced agriculture. In fact, that's where all of my ancestors came from. Christians utterly dominated banking.Eastern European Jews involved themselves in agriculture only as its arendars, i.e. managers employed on behalf of wealthy landowners. See on this Hillel Levine, Economic Origins of Antisemitism: Poland and Its Jews in the Early Modern Period. Within the Russian Empire, Jews of the Pale of Settlement were predominantly engaged as petty merchants and tradesmen, making their way into elite urban professions as legal disabilities were lifted between 1905 and 1917. Subsequent Soviet policies that aimed at motivating Jews to work the land met with abject failure.

It is also misleading to claim that "Christians utterly dominated banking". Modern securities trade is largely descended from the house of Rothschild. Niall Ferguson's study of their business remains definitive, and the best thing he wrote. Ron Chernow's history of the Warburgs documents another notable example of patterns that ensured Jewish over-representation in Western financial industries. Needless to say, pointing out this over-representation in no way supports the canard of Jewish financial dominance in the West.

19-3Ben
December 14, 2006, 11:39 AM
Weak eh? Like I said before, I went to a univeristy in the Boston area that was about 70% Jewish. Doesn't get more liberal than that. In fact, the school is known for being one of the centers of liberalism.
Anybody who has ever heard of Brandeis Univeristy knows what I mean.

I started a trap/skeet/target shooting club there, and within one semester became the fastest growing club at the school. We had the highest percentage of bodget money granted to us out fo the amount requested. I went out on trips ~once every week an a half during the semester, and limited group sizes to ten people. I had a waiting list for every trip because they filled up so quickly. I'd guess that more than half the kids in the club were Jewish.
As has been mentioned before, I think that Jews being anti-gun is just a fact tht Jews tend to live in large cities, and because of it, they fall prey to the large city politics. A NYC Jew is no more likely to be an anti-gun liberal than any other NYC resident.

Another thing that may have an effect is the fact that Jews tend to be very outspoken. We're only something like 1% of the US population. But meanwhile, look at disproportionate representation in politics, media, and entertainment industry. Those also tend to be lberal arenas, which goes back to our argument about living in liberal cities.

And as for being outspoken, lets look at JPFO. 1% of the U.S. population, and only a small fraction of that 1% are gun owners. Yet there is group that is known as one of the most rabidly pro-gun lobbying groups in America, and appeals to Gentiles, as much as Jews for their uncompromosing stance on fighting gun control.

By the way, anybody who wants to see the antithesis of the stereotype, need look no further than Rabbi Reuven Mermelstein. The "Ask a Rabbi" guy from the Gun Owner's Alliance. I love it!!
http://www.gunownersalliance.com/Rabbi_Mermelstein.htm

Oh, Michael Zeleny- you may be correct about your comment on the commandment to survive thing. I really don't know. But there IS a requirement for self-defense. If you look at the rules regarding a rodef (someone who intends to do you harm), you will see what I mean.
and I quote, from Talmud, Sanhedrin,
What is reason for the law of breaking in? Because it is certain that no man is inactive where his property is concerned; therefore this one
[the thief] must have reasoned, “If I go there, he [the owner] will
oppose me and prevent me; but if he does, I will kill him.” Hence the
Torah decreed “If he come to slay thee, forestall by slaying him.”

Just as Malcolm Reynolds once said "If someone tries to kill you, you kill them right back!" The Talmud also says it. Self-defense is a requirement.

Axman
December 14, 2006, 11:41 AM
I feel that the Lord helps those that help themselves. The carrying of a gun is helping one's self. You can rely of God but God simply isn't everywhere all by himself, which is why he employs people to do His work. In some cases you have to rely on yourself when God can't be there fast enough. That is why you need certain emergency equipment: A fire extinguisher, a spare tire, a cell phone (to call the auto club, not the cops), a GUN!!!

tellner
December 14, 2006, 11:43 AM
Belief in the coming of Moshiach is a fundamental tenet of Jewish belief. Maimonedes' Thirteen Principles of Faith (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Thirteen_Articles_of_Maimonides.html)includes the following beautiful passage: "I believe with a full heart in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he may tarry, I will wait for him on any day that he may come." I won't get into the theology. It's only really interesting to Jews. Suffice it to say that calling Christians of Jewish extraction "Messianic Jews" does not make sense from the perspective of Judaism as it has been practiced for the last couple thousand years.

Keith Wheeler
December 14, 2006, 11:49 AM
It seems to me that other than some of the folks here, most American Jews who own firearms are rather quiet about that ownership. I'm constantly surprised by members of our congregation who shoot. They don't talk about it (like I do), they're not "gun nuts" (like I am). They own a pistol for self/family defense, and leave it at that. While 19-3Ben may be right about Jews being outspoken (I mean come on, there's only some 14 million of us on the planet and we're always stirring up a fuss!) I think most American Jewish gun owners are quiet about that aspect of their lives, and perhaps that adds to the perception of Jews being anti-gun.

Add on top of that the "official" positions of many of the religious institutions (which again, could be said for many Christian institutions).

Michael Zeleny
December 14, 2006, 11:55 AM
Oh, Michael Zeleny- you may be correct about your comment on the commandment to survive thing. I really don't know. But there IS a requirement for self-defense.I do not doubt the individual requirements. But when you look at the social trends, diaspora Jews remain as under-represented in occupations and mindsets that involve legitimate use of physical force, as they are over-represented in most elite professions. Note also the antithetical standing of Jewish propensities for building walls around laws, to the Jeffersonian principles of watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants, which comprise the ideological basis of the Second Amendment.

10 Ring Tao
December 14, 2006, 12:05 PM
Some are. Some, like your girlfriend and I, are not.


Where does she work?

The most notable, or recent anyway, example of a weak jew is that of a brother's friend. She is very typical of SE michigan suburban jews. After trying to explain to her that the holocaust may have been prevented or at least abated by Jews with guns who were willing to stand up and fight, she looked at me with an incredulous look on her face and flattly (almost automatically) denied that armed jewish resistance would have prevented anything.

Another victim of the urban/suburban sheep mentality, forgetting her roots.

Anyway, the girlfriend works in a pharmacy across from beaumont royal oak.

19-3Ben
December 14, 2006, 12:14 PM
10 Ring- Tell her to read Leon Uris' book Mila 18, and then say that again.

The Real Hawkeye
December 15, 2006, 10:02 AM
The most notable, or recent anyway, example of a weak jew is that of a brother's friend. She is very typical of SE michigan suburban jews. After trying to explain to her that the holocaust may have been prevented or at least abated by Jews with guns who were willing to stand up and fight, she looked at me with an incredulous look on her face and flattly (almost automatically) denied that armed jewish resistance would have prevented anything.She should read First Machabees:If we shall do what our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives and our justifications, they will now quickly root us out of the earth. And they determined in that day, saying: Whosoever shall come up against us to fight on the Sabbath day, we will fight against him; and we will not all die as our brethren that were slain in the secret places ... Now, therefore, O my sons, be ye zealous for the law, and give your lives for the covenant of your fathers ... You, therefore, my sons, take courage, and behave manfully in the law: for you shall be glorious ... Then his son Judas, called Machabeus, rose up in his stead. And all his brethren helped him, and all they that had joined themselves to his father, and they fought with cheerfulness the battle of Israel (keep in mind, this was a small force compared to the Greek Empire) ... And Apollonious gathered together the Gentiles, and a numerous and great army from Samaria, to make war against Israel. And Judas ... went forth ... and he overthrew him and killed him ... [And another larger force, under Seron came against Judas] ... and Judas went forth to meet him with a small force ... they said, Judas: How shall we being few, be able to fight against so great a multitude and so strong, and we are ready to faint with fasting today? And Judas said: It is an easy matter for many to be shut up in the hands of a few; and there is no difference in the sight of the God of heaven to deliver with a great multitude, or with a small company. For success in war is not in the multitude of the army, but the strength cometh from heaven ... We fight for our lives and our laws, and the Lord Himself will overthrow them before our face.Read the rest on your own.

1911 guy
December 15, 2006, 11:02 AM
I don't think it's so much of a Jewish anti-gun sentiment as it is an urban anti-gun sentiment. We just tend, as human beings do, to lump people into categories for our own convenience. Another example would be to say that most Afro-Americans vote democrat. While there are a large number that do, I also know a large number that don't. I also work with a man who is very vocal in his dislike of Jesse Jackson. So much for lumping people together.

The urban outlook is important because it was virtually forced upon the Jews. After the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70 by Titus and the sacking of Jerusalem, they were forced out of Israel and into other lands and countries. Being outcasts in the eyes of both Muslims and Christians, they were forced to insulate themselves in self-sufficient communities. This was impossible in rural areas because of the prohibition against owning land by any but nobility in most western countries and no feudal lord or king would take "heretics" under his "divine right" protection. This left urban areas where renting was possible and close proximity allowed both cultural preservation and collective leverage in business dealings. The latter, often cited as a pejorative against Jews, was, in fact, a necessary survival tool used by many persecuted minority groups throughout history. Money talks, even if the mainstream doesn't like the man with the wallet.

In short, I think if you took a poll of urban Jews and urban Gentiles, the pro and anti numbers would be very similar.

eastwood44mag
December 15, 2006, 11:33 AM
This applies to everyone, so don't gripe:

People who ought to know better don't. Victims of abusive regimes never seem to get it together.

-6 million Jews, countless other ethnic "minorities" sent to camps after being disarmed. They hate guns to this day.
-Countless descendants of slaves, who were disarmed. They hate guns to this day.
-Most of Eastern Europe under the iron curtain. Disarmed. They still hate guns.


Just goes to show you can't fix stupid.

KosherNRA
July 27, 2007, 10:47 PM
Brother..i didnt have to read the whole thread to give my opinion

Jews against guns are on the same level to me as Jews for Jesus (Mesianic)...it doesnt make sense

if Jews were allowed to be armed in the WWii ages then there is a chance the halocaust would have never happened

I own MANY guns, and Austrian manufacture is where my interest mainly lies (being of Austrian decent, circa 1922)

most of the jews i know have the same theory: that guns are bad

now...some would consider me liberal, others conservative as far as politics goes..and that may be where my difference is

LightningJoe
July 28, 2007, 01:29 AM
Gun ownership has partly to do with the outdoors and rural existence. Jews avoided or were cut off from these settings for many centuries. Other than that, guns are associated with sovereignty and citizen power. As a group, Jews didn't have a country for 2000 years. Now they do. And they've got their own guns.

As citizens of a hundred countries during those 2000 years, they generally weren't going to get anywhere by force (not including some gangsters, etc.). They essentially lived by their wits for a couple of millennia. The whole Nazi extermination thing was something they had no idea how to deal with. Their ways of dealing with the world didn't work in that environment. Regardless of how the playing field was tilted against them, they had always figured out a way to succeed. But when they just take you away and kill you, you can't get around that.

Are Jews smart enough to figure out what went wrong in Nazi-controlled Europe? Too soon to tell. Their most recent responses have been to get behind somebody big and whom they trust (America) and to start their own country (Israel). We have yet to see how it will all play out.

willbrink
July 28, 2007, 10:25 AM
"I mean I figure after the holocaust and stuff every Jew would want to be armed."

Well you know what they say about those who ignore history? Some in the Jewish community have not forgotten and feel as you do. See:

JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION
OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP

http://www.jpfo.org/

Some interesting articles there, and any Jew who does not support fire arms ownership after reading them, spits on the graves of those who died before them at the hands of tyrants....

BTW, I am not Jewish.

freedomwanted
July 28, 2007, 10:59 AM
I was at a gun show a few years back 3 jewish men came in an bought a 50 cal. on a tripod,a mg42 an all the ammo in the show to fit these guns. They know something is going to happen soon!

Michael Zeleny
July 28, 2007, 12:33 PM
Here are some Jews in favor of guns. My first exhibit is Judge Alex Kozinski (http://notabug.com/kozinski/) dissenting in Silveira v. Lockyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silveira_v._Lockyer):The prospect of tyranny may not grab the headlines the way vivid stories of gun crime routinely do. But few saw the Third Reich coming until it was too late. The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed—where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once.The next item is the opinion for the United States District Court for the District of Columbia, filed by Senior Circuit Judge Laurence Silberman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Silberman) in an appeal from the lower court ruling in Shelly Parker, et al., appellants v. District of Columbia and Adrian M. Fenty, Mayor of the District of Columbia, appellees (http://howappealing.law.com/030907.html#023153), Case No. 04-7041 (http://dhimmification.wordpress.com/2007/03/09/gems-from-the-dc-circuit-courts-ruling/#more-188):Appellants contest the district court’s dismissal of their complaint alleging that the District of Columbia’s gun control laws violate their Second Amendment rights. The court held that the Second Amendment (“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”) does not bestow any rights on individuals except, perhaps, when an individual serves in an organized militia such as today’s National Guard. We reverse. […]
To summarize, we conclude that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right existed prior to the formation of the new government under the Constitution and was premised on the private use of arms for activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the depredations of a tyrannical government (or a threat from abroad). In addition, the right to keep and bear arms had the important and salutary civic purpose of helping to preserve the citizen militia. The civic purpose was also a political expedient for the Federalists in the First Congress as it served, in part, to placate their Antifederalist opponents. The individual right facilitated militia service by ensuring that citizens would not be barred from keeping the arms they would need when called forth for militia duty. Despite the importance of the Second Amendment’s civic purpose, however, the activities it protects are not limited to militia service, nor is an individual’s enjoyment of the right contingent upon his or her continued or intermittent enrollment in the militia.More gun-toting Jews can be found at The Volokh Conspiracy (http://volokh.com/posts/1173453865.shtml).

Reddbecca
July 28, 2007, 12:40 PM
Anti-gun Jews, anti-gun blacks. Good Lord it's like the KKK and Hitler are being supported by those they wanted to exterminate!

Prince Yamato
July 28, 2007, 01:27 PM
Here's what I say to anti-gun people, especially those in a minority (Jews, gays, etc.):

There's 100 Million some Muslim radicals who want to wipe Americans off the face of the earth, if they get over here, I can guarantee you will be the first ones lined up against the wall and shot. Still feel safe without a gun?

Reddbecca
July 28, 2007, 03:36 PM
Yeah!

Enough with the nambie pambie, peaceful disputes with idiots and historically ignorant people. Time to get down and mean.

kgriggs8@yahoo.com
July 28, 2007, 03:55 PM
I thought Jews were pro-gun. At least in Israel they seem to be very pro-gun and I know there are many Jews in the U.S. that are pro-gun.

I don't think that is a religious matter if you are pro or anti-gun, I think it has more to do with your political leanings. If you are a liberal, you are more likely to be anit-gun. Because most Jews live in urban areas, that that tend to be liberal, they tend to be liberal and tend to be anti-gun.

What about blacks? Are they anti-gun? Seriously? I don't know of many outspoken blacks that are anti-gun. Or at least, that doesn't seem to be the main issue they raise.

White upper middle class women between 35-55 seem to be our biggest enemy. They are bored housewives that have enough time and money to spend crusading after what they think is right. They are the ones that did the "Million Mom March". They are the ones that need to be stopped. They are the ones that take up all these freaking crusades, MADD, ect.

pdowg881
July 28, 2007, 04:08 PM
To bad there are no million gun owner marches. If there was a demonstration of that size maybe the average person would realize that there really are millions of law abiding gun owners.

Dan from MI
July 28, 2007, 04:13 PM
In my experience, the most anti-gun individuals I come across are rich white snobbish leftists in either the Northeast (haven't been to Pacific Coast), college towns, or near areas with "those people" (And we all know who "those people" are). It's a status symbol of being "cool" there, much like the Toyota Prius. I'm not saying that all Prius drivers are gun grabbers, but those who use it as a status symbol tend to be gun grabbers. It's the culture.

tube_ee
July 28, 2007, 06:22 PM
I'd just like you to know that your story brought a tear to my eyes.

I'd go so far as to say that no salute you've ever rendered, nor ever will render, was more deserved.

Resistance is not futile... even when it fails.

--Shannon

scout26
July 29, 2007, 10:55 PM
To bad there are no million gun owner marches. If there was a demonstration of that size maybe the average person would realize that there really are millions of law abiding gun owners.

Unfortunately we all have real jobs and have to be at those real jobs otherwise the economy would grind to halt or at least suffer a serious blow for that day.



Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing for the powers that be (and want to be) to see once.

Air,Land&Sea
July 29, 2007, 11:58 PM
We have a resident Million Mommer who's Jewish, drives a Prius and is running for a local office here. She happened to park in the street one house over a few days ago to knock on doors. I saw her, wished her well and started asking her about her car since I'm selling mine and I drive a lot. We were having a really nice conversation and I said that it would be really cool driving a Prius with my NRA stickers all over it. She immediately said that she'll drive hers into mine if she sees it. We both laughed and I wished her well again.
The point is that, and I'm Jewish myself (not that it matters), don't assault the liberal point of view of many American Jews. Just assault their position on guns. Keep that issue seperate. You can be as liberal as you wish, but do not mess with my most important rights. More than half will understand that especially if you're respectful of their views on other things.

don
July 30, 2007, 12:09 AM
hmm. and to think, I purchased my last pistol from a Jewish gun shop owner.

Master Blaster
July 30, 2007, 10:03 AM
I think its a matter of the Urban nature of the majority of Jews. New Jersey and New York, Baltimore, Atlanta, have the largest Jewish populations, big city dwellers tend to be Democrats and anti Firearm.

Of couse I could blame it on the Catholics as well.

Nancy Pelosi catholic,
Teddy Kennedy catholic,
Joe Biden, catholic,
Carolyn McCarthey catholic,
John Kerry catholic,
Barak Obama catholic,
Rudy Gulliani catholic,

Need I go on??

Don Gwinn
July 30, 2007, 10:14 AM
I think that's about the closest you're going to come to that issue. The largest numbers of Jews are found living in urban areas. Urban areas are the last bastions of gun control, and gun control is tied up with other issues that a lot of Jews care about.
Ergo, a lot of Jews favor gun control whether you and I think it's in their best interest or not.

You and I may not see it this way, but I think the average Jew would tell you that nobody is trying to disarm Jews specifically. If they thought their government was trying to single them out and disarm them (but not necessarily everyone else) then we'd see a lot more Oleg Volks. As it is, I think most figure it would be fine to be disarmed as long as everyone else is disarmed too--which is basically the default anti-gun position in America anyway.

Hobie
July 30, 2007, 10:35 AM
I quite reading the "educated" posts after about the fith one. I just want to say that I will never understand how any member of any group that has been persecuted such as the Jews or endured what Blacks (aka Negroes) have endured here or anywhere else would EVER submit to disarmament. People don't change, some hold grudges for things done centuries ago (look at the middle east today!).

I do not subscribe to the idea that political ideas are held by all in any given "ethnic" group. E.g. not all Jews are for "gun"-control and not all Blacks are for reparations.

30 cal slob
July 30, 2007, 10:36 AM
There is the perception of jewish anti-gun politicians in leadership roles. chuckie and dianne.

There is the urban jew without a clew.

There is the antigun jewish newspaper editor.

There is the vocal jewish activist.

Maybe the mind has a tendency to selectively remember these things.

Now, who is the plaintiff's attorney spearheading Parker vs. D.C.?

Who was one of the judges in the D.C. District Court that wrote the surprisingly well-written and thought-out opinion in Parker vs. D.C.?

:neener: :evil:

Michael Zeleny
July 30, 2007, 02:26 PM
Who was one of the judges in the D.C. District Court that wrote the surprisingly well-written and thought-out opinion in Parker vs. D.C.?What I said. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3585317&postcount=94)

PILMAN
July 30, 2007, 02:29 PM
Way to bump an old thread guys -_- ah well.

Carl N. Brown
July 30, 2007, 02:47 PM
There are Jews against guns. There are Jews for guns.
There are Jews against guns for hunting but for guns for self defense.
Perhaps there are even Jews who can rationalise humane hunting
as being kosher if the kill is clean without terrorizing the animal
(which is my goy reading of kosher dietary law).

There are Christians against guns. There are Christians for guns.
There are Christians for guns for hunting but against guns for self defense.
And I could go on.

Every religious/ethnic group (and secular humanist multiculturist is an
religious/ethnic group too) has individuals who have taken every possible
position pro and anti gun.

Generalizations about religious/ethnic groups only go so far, then
they go wrong.

PILMAN
October 29, 2007, 03:10 PM
I was debating a fellow Jew about gun control and they sent me this

Gun Control: A Jewish Look
by Rabbi Chaim Steinmetz *
On March 24th, in Jonesboro, Arkansas, two junior high school students armed with rifles murdered four of their schoolmates and one of their teachers. These horrible murders reignited the ongoing international debate about gun control. In Canada, the Canadian parliament has passed several major pieces of legislation requiring gun control. In 1995, it passed Bill C-68 requiring all guns and rifles to be included in a national gun registry. This followed previous laws which prohibited machine guns, and required the training and screening of all owners of firearms. To opponents of gun control laws, these laws are a nuisance for law abiding gun owners, and have little effect on violent crime. Proponents of these laws point to extensive academic research that these laws save lives and increase safety. What does Jewish law (halacha) have to say about this issue?

In Judaism, safety is a religious concern. The Bible requires that a roof be properly gated, in order to prevent people from falling off of it (Deuteronomy 22:8). This commandment is understood by the Talmud as a general directive to remove any safety hazard (Bava Kamma 15b; Shulchan Aruch CM 427:8). Contemporary rabbinic authorities include in this commandment an employer's responsibility to ensure occupational safety (Piskei Uziel 47) and an injunction against reckless driving (Minchat Yitzchak 8:148). Someone who refuses to remove a safety hazard can be punished by excommunication (YD 334:7). In general, safety regulations are treated with far greater stringency than any other section of halacha (YD 116:7). Clearly, any Jewish view of gun control would place high value on safety.

In the Talmud there are specific regulations that resemble gun control. There is a law against owning a dangerous dog (Bava Kamma 79a). One who owns a dangerous dog must keep it tied in metal chains at all times (CM 409:3). Even if the dog is defanged or trained not to harm people, it must be chained because it may frighten strangers, and as a result may cause stress related injuries such as miscarriage and heart attacks (Shabbat 63b). One of the more pious Rabbis, Rabbi Pinchas Ben Yair, was so stringent about this law that he refused to own mules, because they can occasionally cause injury (Hullin 7b; Terumat Hadeshen 2:105). However, there were instances where allowances were made. In border communities, where there is a threat of marauders, owners of dangerous dogs may unchain them at night for protection. Some say that any dangerous city is similar to a border community (CM 409:3).These sources demonstrate that halacha would require any gun to be carefully locked at all times, with allowances made in cases where the gun is actively being used for security. Those who are more stringent would avoid guns completely. (It should also be noted that many authorities prohibit hunting for sport; Rama OH 316:2, Darchei Teshuva YD 117:44)

There is a second halacha that is relevant to this issue. The Talmud prohibits someone from selling offensive weapons to idol worshippers and suspected criminals (Avodah Zarah 15b; YD 151:5-6). The rule against selling to idol worshippers is based on an assumption that the idol worshippers will use them against Jews; however, if the Jews are allied with the idol worshippers, it is permitted to sell them arms. It is likewise prohibited to sell such weapons to anyone suspected of reselling them to criminals. This halacha requires that the buyers of firearms be carefully screened, and resembles in many ways laws requiring a national registry of gun and rifle owners.

Although halacha is extremely concerned about safety, it does not prohibit the ownership of guns. However, recognizing that a gun is a dangerous object, halacha (like many current gun control laws) requires that owners and vendors of guns take all possible precautions to prevent their guns from causing any harm.

Reprinted with permission of Rabbi Chaim Steinmetz

Footnotes
*) Rabbi Chaim Steinmetz is the spiritual leader of Tifereth Beth David Jerusalem in Montreal, Quebec. He writes a column on Jewish Law for the Canadian Jewish News, and writes a column and hosts an internet Jewish study group for the Microsoft Network. He is a member of the executive board of the Rabbinical Council of America, the Vice President of the Montreal Board of Jewish Ministers, and a member of the board of directors of the Jewish Educational Council of Montreal and Hillel-Jewish Students Center of Montreal. He recieved his ordination from Yeshiva University, where he was a fellow of the Gruss Kollel Elyon. He has a M.A. in Jewish Philosophy from the Bernard Revel Graduate School, and a M.A. in Education from Adelphi University.


I sent them the link how religious scripture demands you keep your sword by your side and "if someone comes to kill you, kill them first". *Sigh*

JohnL2
October 29, 2007, 03:53 PM
You learn something new every day.

wideym
October 29, 2007, 04:46 PM
It's about a cult of victimhood. Many leaders in our communitys cannot survive without a platform of victims. When ethnic leaders cries out against anything which could protect his people from past atrocities, it's only to secure his place. Why else would Jewish, Black, Gay, Women, etc. protest against guns. Nowadays it seems almost chic to be a victim. Its good to remember your peoples past, but don't wear it on your sleave everyday as a symbol of why you cannot suceed. Community leaders should instead encourage their people to empower themselves and no longer be victims.

Many people cite religous reasons to hate/ban guns. They also tend to twist scripture to reenforce that. The biggest twist is the changing of one word in the ten commandments. From "Thou shall not murder." to "Thou shall not kill." There is a big difference between murder and kill.

jlbraun
October 29, 2007, 04:51 PM
I know Buddhists who wax all "radically genteel" and "above violence" to justify their denial.

Not this Buddhist. I ain't goin out like Burma.

lance22
October 30, 2007, 08:58 AM
The Lutheran church sued the State of Minnesota when our first 'shall issue' law was passed about 5 years ago. Russia should have imported MN Lutherans back in the 1980's because if they had done this, the Soviet would have never fallen - these MN Lutherans are true believers when it comes to Karl Marx.

To answer your question - don't ask why Judaism(s) seem to favor a state monopoly on force; but rather ask why all religions favor this.

I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said something along the lines that in every age and every place, the clergy will always side with the tryant. Here they oppose Bush but that's only so they can install somebody like Chavez. If you belong to an 'old world' denomination you know what I mean - you are continually bombarded with 'socially conscious' messages from the pulpit, all of which depend upon creating a government 'strong enough to make people do the right thing'.

obxned
October 30, 2007, 11:28 AM
Not all Jewish folks are doing the 'heads in the sand' (or someplace else) thing. These guys really get it!

http://www.jpfo.org/jewsandguncontrol.htm

ieszu
October 30, 2007, 11:41 AM
As a religious Jew (Orthodox) and a gun owner and FFL holder, let me see if I can help explain why some of my brethren are the way they are.

When secular Judaism started to take hold, many looked to other belief systems to replace the sense of community they lost when they stopped going to synagogue. To this end, many became socialists, communists and Liberals.

When they joined these groups they started to treat everything from their new organization as the unvarnished truth, without questioning it....

As time went on, and secularism continued to grow, most people assumed that Judaism equaled liberalism, even though there are no real connection between them.

Now that the demographics are turning, and the secular Jews are slowly breeding themselves out of existence (less than zero population growth and high rates of intermarriage), and orthodox Jews are gaining in population (no intermarriage and 6-8 kids on average, with less than 2% becoming secular), we will see the trend shortly reverse itself.

Oh, and while Feinstein considers herself Jewish, her mother was not.... although she herself married a Jew, and Barbara Boxer married a non-Jew, but was born Jewish...

I am a member of the JPFO... as is my wife and both of our immediate families....

BridgeWalker
October 30, 2007, 11:47 AM
I was raised in an Orthodox Jewish community. In my experience in that community, more people were politically conservative than liberal, for reasons of morality, but quite a few were liberals.

Gun control was mostly a non-issue. It was just not a gun culture. Hunting is, as posters noted early in the thread, against Jewish law and not really terribly respected in Jewish culture.

The quote Pilman posted does demonstrate how Jewish legal thought tends to operate--by applying older situations to new ones. I think we can all spot the breakdown in that logic as applied to guns--a dog can attack without human agency. A gun can't.

I remember my parents were a little torn on a AWB when it first rolled around. They thought it was probably not a great idea for all the usual reasons--2nd am., easy to get around, demonizing particular models instead of actual criminals--but they also couldn't comprehend why anyone would want the guns they saw pictured in the NYT.

Definitely the hoocaust plays into this a little. Ime, Jews tend to get nervous when the gov't starts randomly choosing constitutional provisions to ignore.

But they were very supportive of non-Jews going deer-hunting. They rcognizd the need for herd management, and saw that as a proper function of non-Jews. But, most kinds of straight recreation lik shooting and gun hobbies are frowned upong in the most Orthodox communities. But everyone was cool with Israeli settlers carrying, or young Hassidim in Brooklyn carrying to protect the community.

My brother's Orthodox father-in-law is teaching rudimentary shotgunning to his teenage son because he thinks he needs an outlet of some kind, and shooting is a fairly harmless one.

I guess what I'm getting at is that while among the Orthodox there isn't strong support for rtkba, there isn't strong opportion either, and there is a recognition that there are appropriate situations where guns ar desirable, but that this is not a major part of the culture.

Last time I stopped by my parents house, I happened to have my Benelli in the trunk of my car. My brother and sister-in-law wanted to see it, and were fairly impressed by it. My parents were also interested. It was not a "guns are evil, how dare you" situation at all, more a "hm, kinda' neat, don't know much about it, but I'm fascinated, even though I would *nver* distract from my mission by becoming a serious hobbyist." I think my guns shock them far less than almost anything else about my life. :o

Master Blaster
October 30, 2007, 11:49 AM
Why are Catholics so Against Guns???

Leading Gun baners in congress:

Nancy Pelosi CATHOLIC
Teddy Kennedy Catholic
Joe Biden Catholic
John Kerry Catholic
Carolyn McCarthy Catholic

There are many more

In fact there are more Catholics that hate Guns than there are Jews in the entire world.

I sure its really Catholics that Hate guns not Jews.

BridgeWalker
October 30, 2007, 11:54 AM
I don't think attacking Catholicism is a good way to approach this thread. Lots of people on it have discussed the perception of anti-gun Jewry and given intelligent, well thought out responses.

Please don't attack my Church, my Pope, or my faith in making your point. No one is attacking yours, and I don't find anti-Catholic rhetoric any more acceptable than anti-Jewish rhetoric.

Autolycus
October 30, 2007, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Prince Yamamoto: There's 100 Million some Muslim radicals who want to wipe Americans off the face of the earth, if they get over here, I can guarantee you will be the first ones lined up against the wall and shot. Still feel safe without a gun? Funny... I say something similar.

I usually say that there are about 100 million Christians right here in this country who are hoping that the next 9/11 or first atomic weapon will bring back their god Jesus and give them an excuse to kill Muslims, Jews, Gays, aethists, etc.

Master Blaster
October 30, 2007, 12:17 PM
From the Holy SEE

The Holy See notes another recent gain in the new momentum given to the small arms issue. Small arms cause the violent death, injury and psychological trauma of hundreds of thousands of people each year. These simple and comparably inexpensive weapons of death find their way into areas of conflict and instability and, shockingly, even into the hands of children, who are locked into a culture of violence. Casualties often occur in the context of religious, ethnic, political and national conflicts. These conflicts are the cause of millions of refugees and internally displaced persons. The weaponization of society fuels cycles of violence, despair and ultimately state collapse. Thus, the establishment of the U.N. Group of Governmental Experts on Small Arms, alongside the work of the Vienna Commission on Crime Prevention and Criminal Justice, are a positive step forward.

At the recent meeting, which took place in Oslo, government officials agreed that governments have primary responsibility to reduce the flow and accumulation of small arms. A study of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace noted the anomaly by which certain States have stringent controls on the international transfer of heavy arms, but few if any regarding the sale of small arms and hand guns. The supplying of small arms must be regulated at its source, at the same time as efforts are being made to lessen the demand and to choke off access to illicit supplies.
Straight from the Pope's mouth:

http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/3798.php?index=3798&po_date=22.10.1998%20%20&lang=ge

BridgeWalker
October 30, 2007, 12:21 PM
I was referring in great part to your mode of reference to the pope, which was disgusting.

goon
October 30, 2007, 12:30 PM
It does seem to boggle the mind.
As a "group", people of Jewish faith have endured an awful lot of persecution throughout history.

Then again, a little over 200 years ago we started our own country and a lot of privately owned weapons were used to get rid of our colonizers.

And about 50 years ago, Great Britian had to basically beg us for every gun we could possibly send them in case the Germans decided to cross the channel.

I guess people in general just seem to forget way too easily.

Hutch
October 30, 2007, 12:46 PM
May as well lock this one. It's headed straight down the pooper. Thanks, M-B and Tecumseh. 5 pages of reasonable dialogue before we get to the Nazi-Pope / Shia-Christian rant.

PILMAN
October 30, 2007, 02:50 PM
The purpose of the thread was not meant to be anti-semitic in nature, but questioning why many who happen to be of Jewish faith tend to take a anti-gun stance? The RAC for example (reform Jewish organization) tend to use religion as an excuse to ban guns, if you've ever looked at their site you will see what I mean. Same with some of the liberal rabbis. While there are catholics, muslims, buddhists and others who are anti-gun, Jews being a very small population (maybe 15 million) tend to be very mixed in political views, but it appears that perhaps the majority would be considered liberal. I think for the most part, users summed it up with the fact Jews are forbidden from hunting and also that many tend to stick in the city therefore are not exposed to guns as much as the average American not being limited to only the city.

Gordon
October 30, 2007, 03:12 PM
IESZU said it all on the topic and is 100% correct. It tickles this old heart to hear the unvarnished truth.:)

Neo-Luddite
October 30, 2007, 03:15 PM
An interesting thread. I like the insight IESZU offered also.

Autolycus
October 30, 2007, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by goon: It does seem to boggle the mind.
As a "group", people of Jewish faith have endured an awful lot of persecution throughout history.

Then again, a little over 200 years ago we started our own country and a lot of privately owned weapons were used to get rid of our colonizers.

And about 50 years ago, Great Britian had to basically beg us for every gun we could possibly send them in case the Germans decided to cross the channel.

I guess people in general just seem to forget way too easily.

True but it seems that in general people want to forget that the Majority Jewish peoples of Israel also deal it. Not all Jews in Israel but they have their own factions who advocate terrorism. For example I like to think of Baruch Goldstein as a major catalyst in stepping up Hamas attacks.

It seems that many people forget that religions themselves can inspire terrorism. Religion seems to be the leading cause of terrorism in our world. Some of it is political but not the majority in my opinion.

Master Blaster
October 30, 2007, 06:19 PM
THIS THREAD originated on December 6, 2006 before the new rules of the now Legal forum. This was an old legal and political thread that had run its course back when.

The management here at THR made up new rules for this forum, and unless I have a serious reading comprehension problem, this thread is not allowed under the rules of this forum since its not a topic relating to a law, or some legal question involving guns.

Now of course I could be wrong if you can show me some evidence that JEWS run the world and make all of the rules.:scrutiny:

So why has this thread been reborn????

ieszu
October 30, 2007, 07:03 PM
So why has this thread been reborn????

I only posted to explain reality... but you are absolutely right about this post being in the wrong forum.

I am all for locking this thread, or having it moved to another forum... possibly under the General forum, or even under the Activism Forum: "How to convince your Jewish neighbors to become more gun-friendly" :evil:

Art Eatman
October 30, 2007, 07:13 PM
Dunno why this got resurrected, but it's not a matter for the Legal forum. Folks oughta know better. L-E-G-A-L = Legal. As in stuff about laws and all that.

Art

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