[Cosmoline]

I confess, I routinely violate one of Cooper's rules when it comes to revolvers--No. 3. And I see only limited need for it in that context. Cooper developed his rules for big bore single action pistols, specifically for his beloved 1911. And in that context it's not only a good idea, it's essential. There is no safe way to even touch a single action pistol's hair trigger, and it's a huge mistake to assume the safety is on or that it will prevent an ND if you squeeze.

But for single action and double action firearms, there is another hold that predates Cooper by generations. Thumb on the uncocked hammer, then finger inside the guard on the trigger, but not pulling it. That is, the thumb verifies that the hammer is uncocked, and the figer rests inside the guard. You'll find most older revolvers are designed to be held this way, and it's quite difficult to keep your index finger outside the trigger guard. In this configuration, it is impossible to fire the revolver without cocking it. And if the index finger gets a mind of its own and squeezes, the thumb will stop it. The fingers also act to guarantee no obstructions tangle with either the hammer or the trigger. It of course has no application with bobbed hammers or DAO revolvers. But for standard wheelguns I use it while drawing but before shooting, to ensure total control over the lockwork of the revolver. The method prevents dangerous hangups on the spur or triggerguard, which are a particular concern with revolvers.

Am I crazy?

[Jim March]

Noooo....not crazy. I think one big issue here is that a lot of the triggerguards are too small, esp. with gloves on.

I'm starting to think that modern SA revolvers, esp. transfer-bar guns like the Rugers would be better off with the front half of the triggerguard cut off, "Fitz" style. This wasn't unknown back in the SAA days, and any number of factory spur-trigger guns of that era are also known. The NAA Minirevolvers are among the last of that breed.

With those exposed triggers, keeping the booger hook off the bang switch is actually easier because you don't have to go "probing" for the trigger's position.

Take the classic "about to go into a dark and creepy place where there's an unknown noise" scenario. You've drawn a piece, but you're not quite sure whether or not that piece of metal under your finger is the triggerguard or the trigger. When amped up some or have gloves on (or both) this is a serious question...all too often by stroking it to see what it does. Which depending on gun type could be a bad thing.

I think we're kinda probing around too, at this same problem in different ways.

I intend to swap grip frames on my New Vaquero anyways and am considering a Fitz job on the replacement.

[LAH]

When drawing sixguns I normally have my finger on the trigger before the gun gets on target but not before clearing the holster.

I hunt with fleese like gloves and while sitting on stand my gloved finger is inside the trigger guard with the sixgun in my lap. The thumb tells me, as Cooper would say: "If my peice is cocked man"

The above applies to Ruger Blackhawks and Smith & Wesson sixguns which is all I shoot...........Creeker

[Imaginos]

I agree with the idea of using the thumb to control the hammmer. Just not the rest of it. I follow Rule 3 religiously regardless of weapon model/style.

Once I have identified my index point on the frame of the gun and trained my trigger finger to go there, I know exactly where the trigger is in relation to the index point. This applies to my Ruger P90, SBH, SP101, and Old Army.

Consistent training breeds consistent performance under stress.

FWIW, I have also seen some folks who rest the back of their trigger finger against the inside front of the trigger guard. Seems almost as safe as keeping the finger out of the trigger guard, but not enough for me to be comfy. YMMV

Elmer Keith had a lot to say about cutting away the trigger guard and it was not positive. Check out his book "Sixguns" before you start hacking off parts of your gun.

[Sistema1927]

I find that keeping the trigger finger laying stright against the outside of the trigger guard until ready to shoot works for me with every weapon type. Rule three always works for me.

[MCgunner]

I never paid much attention to Cooper.

[earplug]

It might be my way of doing the revolver thing.
Just seems right to do it DA from the holster.
I contact the trigger but don't apply any pressure until the firearm is downrange.
I'd never trust myself to a newer Glock type pistol.
Curious what the hammer cockers from the holster do on the second shot?

[.38 Special]

I do a lot of goofing off with my Model 19 and Jordan Trooper holster. As per Mr. Jordan himself, my finger is on the trigger before the draw and is pressing the trigger during the entire course of the presentation. Perfect timing means the sear breaks as the muzzle swings onto the target. I have not shot myself with a wax bullet, but I might yet. This is obviously not a safe technique to practice with live ammo, nor is it neccesarily any faster than a more modern and safer technique. It's merely of historical interest to me.

I honestly do not know if Cooper meant for us to keep our fingers off the trigger during the last stages of the draw. #3 certainly makes sense in the context of "covering" a suspect or while carrying a rifle during a hunt. Does it mean that in a self-defense or competition scenario we should not make contact with the trigger until we have taken the time to verify sight alignment? If so, an awful lot of top competitors are in violation. Perhaps Mr. Miculek would appreciate a concerned note from THR regarding his safety?

Like the man said, safety lies between the ears. Slavishly -- and thoughtlessly -- following the rules does not make us safe. A man with common sense will think about his situation and modify the rules to suit his needs. A man without common sense is not safe regardless of how many rules he observes.

[phoglund]

I have to agree with .38 Special on this one. Although the rules are useful and well reasoned they are not infallible nor without exception. Those who handle firearms must keep their mind in gear and not assume that following rules without understanding or focused attention on their specific situation will not save them from potential disaster.

[Gator]

I never paid much attention to Cooper.

:what:

[Gordon]

The Col. did NOT develop the rules for SA SA pistols , he did it for all guns.How do I know? He told me so in no uncertain terms in 1979! If your finger stays off the trigger until you intend to destroy the target, you won't have any problems with "ADs" or NDs or shooting friendlies-ever. To do otherwise is dangerous and foolhardy. No negotiations on this with anybody I ever shoot with.:scrutiny:

[VA27]

All guns are always loaded.
Never point a firearm at anything you do not wish to see destroyed.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Be sure of your target and what lies beyond.

Words to live by.

In general, you can probably "get away" with a violation of ONE of the four.

If you violate two at the same time, something bad can happen.

If you violate three, something bad will happen.

I've seen police cadets thrown out of the academy and sent home for a violation of rule three. Should we be any less serious?

[Cosmoline]

I'm just wondering what set of circumstances would cause keeping your finger inside the guard with your thumb on the hammer spur on draw and presentation to be dangerous. How would the revolver fire?

[LightningJoe]

Trigger discipline would seem to be a good deal less important with a double-action revolver than with say a DAO pistol or perhaps even a TDA pistol. An SA automatic cocked and locked should make trigger discipline unnecessary. And yet Rule 3 remains. I guess the school of experience has taught us that the limits of human judgement make hard and fast rules necessary.

[pwrtool45]

Well, if you were really concerned about ND/AD you'd carry an autopistol with an empty chamber. In fact, for quite awhile the US Military mandated exactly that. Carrying with a round in the chamber is more dangerous than without. However, it's safe to assume that we all carry with a chambered round. Why? Because it can be done safely if some precautions are taken. As a result of those precautions, condition 3 was determined to be unnecessary. Same thing goes with Rule 3, when you have a 10-lb DAO trigger. (Though, personally, I abide by Rule 3 when manipulating or handling the weapon in an administrative setting.)

Following The Rules just because they are The Rules and Always Have Been is folly.

Further, it should be noted that Cooper was married to the 1911 platform and that colored his opinion and dictum on how a pistol should be manipulated and used. Yes, The Rules can apply to all firearms-- but they aren't as necessary for some as they are for others. Personally, I tend to match my trainers to my platform. I'll listen to Jordan, Skelton and Miculek about how to use a DA revolver more than I'll listen to Cooper. When it comes to the 1911, I'll listen to Cooper (or, more appropriately, a modern instructor who has improved on Cooper's teachings).

[The Real Hawkeye]

Don't know about a single action revolver, but on a double action revolver, it is perfectly safe to have your finger on the trigger before you are ready to fire. The long heavy stroke required to intentionally fire is the safeguard. I think Rule No. 3 refers to single action auto pistols, and anything that is meant to be cocked while in action. Double action revolvers are not carried around in a cocked condition, therefore Rule 3 makes no sense when applied to them.

[VA27]

Building good habits is a good thing. Get sloppy with one (gun) and you'll be sloppy with others. Getting used to having your finger on the trigger of a DA revolver, when it doesn't really need to be there, will eventually lead to you having an ND with your hunting rifle or shotgun or another gun, somewhere down the line. You can NEVER be too safe when handling firearms.

If you think that Rule Three is obsolete, then you are the worst kind of a fool. Kindly stay away from others when you are handling firearms. That way, when the inevitable happens, only your property or life will be in danger.

[John C]

Cosmoline;

I've read many of your posts over the past couple of years, and I quite respect your views and opinions. I appreciate your bringing up this topic. I'm not sure I appreciate the subtle flames from others. You've brought up an interesting point that merits discussion.

The real reason to always follow rule 3 is sympathetic muscle reactions. Sympathetic muscle reaction is when a muscle on one part of your body instinctively reacts along with another muscle. For example, close one eye and then move your other, open eye from side to side. You can't make your one, closed eye stay still. A sympathetic reaction.

There are other sympathetic reactions, and in the hand they occur instinctively. One that's most often seen is when falling.

So, at the range this is probably no big deal. But in a home defense or hunting situation, you don't want to trip when your gun's drawn, since you may have a sympathetic response to clench your hand to avoid dropping your expensive revolver. Hopefully your thumb catches the hammer. In a defensive situation, the last thing you want to do is put a round through the wall of your house, and into your neighbor's. While hunting, a round in your leg or your buddy would ruin the trip.

I really enjoyed VA27's post about the rules and trying to break them. I'll probably unashamedly use that at one time or another.

-John

[The Real Hawkeye]

If you think that Rule Three is obsolete, then you are the worst kind of a fool. Kindly stay away from others when you are handling firearms. That way, when the inevitable happens, only your property or life will be in danger.Not obsolete at all. Just not universally applicable. Double action revolvers, when not cocked, are not prone to being accidentally discharged. Additionally, it is very difficult to go from an index finger straight and forward position to firing a double action revolver, making them next to useless in combat if the finger cannot be inside the trigger guard until the point when immediate discharge is desirable. That said, when not in a combat situation, no fingers should be inside the trigger guard of ANY weapon until the muzzle is pointing at something you are willing to destroy.

The exception for double action revolvers is very narrow, and only applies to the most extreme levels of condition orange, i.e., a goblin has been identified, and you have decided to shoot him if he makes a hostile move. In this case, finger not only can be inside the trigger guard OF A DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVER, it should be inside the trigger guard, and may even be resting lightly on the trigger face. If it is outside the trigger guard pointing straight during this phase, you are taking an unnecessary risk with your life.

[pwrtool45]

Not obsolete at all. Just not universally applicable. Double action revolvers, when not cocked, are not prone to being accidentally discharged. Additionally, it is very difficult to go from an index finger straight and forward position to firing a double action revolver, making them next to useless in combat if the finger cannot be inside the trigger guard until the point when immediate discharge is desirable. That said, when not in a combat situation, no fingers should be inside the trigger guard of ANY weapon until the muzzle is pointing at something you are willing to destroy.

The exception for double action revolvers is very narrow, and only applies to the most extreme levels of condition orange, i.e., a goblin has been identified, and you have decided to shoot him if he makes a hostile move. In this case, finger not only can be inside the trigger guard OF A DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVER, it should be inside the trigger guard, and may even be resting lightly on the trigger face. If it is outside the trigger guard pointing straight during this phase, you are taking an unnecessary risk with your life.

Indeed, this is true. Sounds an awful lot what some old "fools" like Bill Jordan taught.

You can NEVER be too safe when handling firearms.

So, I take it you carry an unloaded gun? Mechanical safties can fail, after all. If one can NEVER (emphasis yours) be too safe... Or, do you make a concession in this case based on perceived need and readiness.

To further clarify, if you check your instruction manual or NRA rules from times not too long past you would note a Rule which states "Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use." So then, which Rules are immutable and which Rules do you disregard? That rule, which is obviously intended for people transporting a recreational firearm to and from the range, does not explicitly state as much. Therefore, would you say that one must take into account one's intended purpose when deciding which rules to follow? If that's the case, it kind of seems like the Rules should be judged on an case-by-case basis instead of unilaterally applying them to all situations.

Also, personal attacks are not High Road.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Indeed, this is true. Sounds an awful lot what some old "fools" like Bill Jordan taught.Of No Second Place Winner fame.

[wildburp]

You would be surprised how one can tense up, unintentionally tightening one's grip (and pull) on the trigger of a quality smooth double action, such as a S&W Combat Masterpiece, in a tense situation. I have to admit being amazed at how much the trigger moved FORWARD after I relaxed (of course I had violated rule 3). I was PREPARED to shoot this poor fellow, but it turned out (split seconds later) to be unnecessary. The experience jarred me throughly. I pulled that trigger about half way to hell.

Rule 3

wb

[The Real Hawkeye]

But you didn't have an unintended discharge because that would require a full rearward pull of the double action trigger. Besides, you should not be squeezing at all unless you intend to fire. At most, your finger should be lightly touching. If this concerns you, however, then keep your finger inside the trigger guard during an extreme condition orange (keep in mind, I'm only talking about a double action revolver with a standard factory tensioned trigger, hammer down), but resting forward on the rear surface of the forward part of the trigger guard.

At this stage (high condition orange), it would be foolish to keep one's finger outside the trigger guard and pointing straight out. You need every second to save your life in that situation, and replacing your finger into the trigger guard and onto the trigger face is not a natural motion like it might be with an auto pistol.

Also, had your double action revolver had the action lightened? I never do this for this very reason. With practice, you can handle a standard factory tensioned double action trigger as well as a lightened one. McGivern provides the procedure for this conditioning in his book.

[wildburp]

Thanks for your insights. I did not have the level of training available today, or perhaps even then. The gun was untouched, nearly new from the box. To this day, I have shed no blood but my own accidentally, and was a LEO for just a short period, before I realized that I was not suited to the work.
All I was saying is that if you are holding a quality DA in the Weaver stance ready to shoot under stress, your forearms will contract, right down to the tippy little tip of your trigger finger. Other folks may not pull the trigger as far as I, but the tension will be there. But your points are accurate and well taken. Being retired now, I don't carry a firearms.

wb

and please don't tell Trapper about this

[VA27]

pwrtool45- There used to be a list called "The Ten Commandments of Gun Safety".

1. Treat every firearm with the same respect due a loaded firearm.
(1. All guns are always loaded.)

2. Control the direction of your firearm's muzzle. Carry your firearm safely, keeping the safety on until ready to shoot. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
(2. Never point a firearm at anything you do not wish to see destroyed.)
(3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.)

3. Identify your target and what is beyond it. Know the identifying features of the game you hunt.
(4. Identify your target and what lies beyond.)

4. Be sure the barrel and action are clear of obstructions and that you have only ammunition of the proper size for the firearm you are carrying.

5. Unload firearms when not in use. Leave the actions open. Firearms should be carried empty in cases to and from shooting areas.

6. Never point a firearm at anything you do not want to shoot. Avoid all horseplay with a firearm.

7. Never climb a fence or a tree, or jump a ditch or log with a loaded firearm.

8. Never shoot a bullet at a flat, hard surface or water. During target practice, be sure your backstop is adequate.

9. Store firearms and ammuntiton separately beyond the reach of children and careless adults.

10. Avoid alcoholic beverages or other mood-altering drugs before or while shooting.

Just general safey precautions that apply to all firearms and their users.

Mr Cooper boiled that list down to the 4 Rules he thought most important for all people who go armed for self defense. The others still apply to all, but "The 4 Rules" are the most important ones for the armed individual.

Also, personal attacks are not High Road

I did not intend for that to be a personal attack. If you took it as such, I sincerely apologize to you. It was, however, an attack on folks who think that they are too smooth, too good or too manly, to worry about a bunch of sissy rules. I work with armed folks every day, both civilian and law enforcement, who are smooth, good and manly (and also womanly!) and are also totally professional in their handling of firearms. I insist on it. They insist on it. I think that everyone should insist on it. Life is far too grand a thing to risk, to hang out with the careless.

Bob

[pwrtool45]

Okay, let's say your only avenue of escape from a potentially escalating situation is to hop a knee-high fence (maybe out next to a 7-11) so that you can flee. Are you going to disregard that option because it violates Rule 7? I'd say no, because the gun is in a holster which (hopefully) covers the trigger guard. That means you can safely ignore Rule #7 because it isn't applicable to your current situation.

The point I'm attempting to communicate is that the rules are going to depend on the weapon in question and the circumstances in question. Rule 3 is completely and utterly necessary for a 1911. It is not necessary for a DA revolver. This is not to be construed as license to go around fiddling with a DA wheelgun while keeping one's finger on the trigger. This is an "exception" to the 1911-centric rules in the circumstances so keenly identified by The Real Hawkeye in an earlier post.

[DrBoomBoom]

I went shooting at an outdoor range with a friend last spring. It was my first time shooting with him. He kept his finger on the trigger all the time he held his handgun and sometimes turned and swept everyone on the range. When I called him on it, he lit into me, telling me about what his daddy taught him, how safe a person he was and on and on. Last month he had a heart attack. I wonder what would have happened if he had that heart attack while sweeping the range with his finger on the trigger? Ignore Murphy and he'll kill you.

[RyanM]

Really, rule 1 is the only essential rule. And personally, I interpret it two ways at once. 1. All guns are always loaded. 1a. Treat all guns as if they were loaded. 1b. Keep your guns loaded at all times, because an empty gun is a very poor club.

Everything else just follows logically. You don't handle a loaded gun in a manner that may cause a negligent discharge, you don't point a loaded gun at anything valuable, and you don't shoot a loaded gun at anything you're not positive needs shootin'.

[pwrtool45]

*sigh*

Saying that Rule 3 isn't as applicable to DA revolvers as it is to 1911s isn't the same as saying all Rules are null and void.

He kept his finger on the trigger all the time he held his handgun and sometimes turned and swept everyone on the range

Emphesis mine. It's kinda hard to shoot folks if you don't put a muzzle on them.

Also, before responding people should re-re-re-read TRH's post on exactly HOW Rule 3 applies to revolvers. It also wouldn't hurt to re-read my original post as well since I explicitly noted when and how I, personally, still used Rule 3 and a DA revolver.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Life is far too grand a thing to risk, to hang out with the careless.So, which of us members of the Highroad do you classify as "careless?" :confused:

[The Real Hawkeye]

I went shooting at an outdoor range with a friend last spring. It was my first time shooting with him. He kept his finger on the trigger all the time he held his handgun and sometimes turned and swept everyone on the range. When I called him on it, he lit into me, telling me about what his daddy taught him, how safe a person he was and on and on. Last month he had a heart attack. I wonder what would have happened if he had that heart attack while sweeping the range with his finger on the trigger? Ignore Murphy and he'll kill you.I have quite a few stories just like that, but I will only tell one in this post (I've told the others in other posts here in the past). I went hunting with my cousin back in the 1980s. As we walked into the field single file along a path. My cousin was in front of me with his loaded and closed up side by side shotgun. I was behind him. My shotgun action was open, and pointing to the side. His was closed, over his shoulder, and pointing at me. When I informed him of this fact he became very angry and started telling me how many years he'd been hunting and handling guns. Needless to say I never went hunting with him again.

[El Tejon]

We always hear about people who want to make themselves exempt from The Four Rules and we usually hear about those same people shooting themselves or others.

The Four Rules always apply, always. The Four Rules are NOT dependent upon a weapon type. Jeff Cooper taught pistol, revover, carbine, rifle, machine gun, shotgun, etc. The Four Rules apply everywhere we are.

It matters not how heavy the trigger is or what the weapon looks like, you keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on target.

[pwrtool45]

So, why do we believe Cooper over Jordan?

Further, what makes Cooper's Four Rules immutable and the Ten Commandments of Gun Safety less so?

I've posed three similar questions and no one has addressed any of them.

Additionally, this is not me "wanting to make myself exempt." Personally, I don't blindly follow rules unless I accept the logic upon which they're based.

[The Real Hawkeye]

It matters not how heavy the trigger is or what the weapon looks like, you keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on target.With regard only to the case of double action revolvers in a condition orange situation, I will respectfully disagree with you. My finger is on the trigger at some point prior to the moment I am pulling the trigger. Col. Cooper developed those rules while he was a primary advocate for the single action auto pistol. Naturally, any set of rules he developed would be based on that. Other experts who spent their lives as lawmen dealing with desperate men on a regular basis, and that with double action revolvers, did not advocate that the finger must be outside the trigger guard until the exact moment you wish to fire the weapon. Reasonable people may differ on this narrow point.

[El Tejon]

Because Jeff Cooper trained tens of thousands and the only people he killed with a pistol were enemy soldiers. Because if you follow The Four Rules there can be no NDs.

Real, yes your finger may very well be on the trigger before firing, but your sights are still on target and you are ready to shoot.:)

Jeff Cooper may have been a well-known advocate of the single action auto but he taught Rule 3 to his revolver students as well.

Every instructor I have been under as always applied Rule 3 to autos as well as revolvers. It is my opinion that failure to heed Rule 3 for whatever reason "I have a ________", "I'm a LEO" or "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to have a Glock Fortay" wil only lead to disaster.

Do we know of any instructors who are teaching contrary to Rule 3?:confused:

[pwrtool45]

Because Jeff Cooper trained tens of thousands and the only people he killed with a pistol were enemy soldiers.

Ignoring the number of people Jordan trained and his service in WWII, Korea and the Border Patrol, I have to ask if this is a slam on Jordan? Are we going there?

Because if you follow The Four Rules there can be no NDs.

Also, you can follow The Five Rules (adding No Loaded Chambers) and there will be no NDs. There is a logical disconnect between "Following these rules will yield No Problems" and "These rules slow me down and offer no advantage" that has yet to be addressed.

Real, yes your finger may very well be on the trigger before firing, but your sights are still on target and you are ready to shoot.

I agree with this in part. Although Jordan would have disagreed.

Jeff Cooper may have been a well-known advocate of the single action auto but he taught Rule 3 to his revolver students as well.

Cooper was a Disciple of The 1911. I do not recall any acts distinguishing him as a Disciple of the Revolver. If Jordan had taught 1911 shooters to do something illogical based on his prejudices toward the 1911 platform I would disregard these teachings and find someone who specialized in the 1911. Someone like Cooper.

Every instructor I have been under as always applied Rule 3 to autos as well as revolvers.

While I've addressed some of these concerns previously, to be fair, how many of these instructors have truly distinguished themselves with a 12-lb DAO revolver? At the last IDPA nationals there was one Well-Known Instructor shooting in SSR division (Massad Ayoob). Disregarding the issue of GunGames(tm) as training, how many of these Well-Known Trainers are willing to get in the trenches with their students using a revolver to prove a point? Name one who's done it more than once or twice. Name one who's been willing to hang it out and compete with one.

It is my opinion that failure to heed Rule 3 for whatever reason "I have a ________", "I'm a LEO" or "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to have a Glock Fortay" wil only lead to disaster.

It is my opinion that saying anything is forbid "for whatever reason" should raise red flags. There are always exceptions. Especially when the people saying it so fervently have a proficiency with the exception and a specialization with the rule.

Do we know of any instructors who are teaching contrary to Rule 3?

Here in 2006, who would? Are you saying that their lawyers have zero impact on this? Also that if something should happen on a firing line full of students, the fact that they probably have to pay legal fees win or lose also doesn't sway their decision on the matter at all?

[VA27]

I think (maybe) I see what's going on here. We seem to be struggling with the misconception that there is a difference between recreational shooting and an armed conflict in regards to the application of the 4 Rules. There is not. The old saw that "you fight/play like you train" is in full effect here. If you are sloppy in training or recreation that could carry over into a real situation, either hunting or self-defense, with disasterous consequences.

Rifle, shotgun, revolver or semi-automatic, plinking tin cans with a BB Gun in the back yard or being number two man on an entry team, the Rules apply. You have only to do a little research to see numerous stories of police officers or military personnel injured or killed during live-fire training because of rule violations. There are also a boatload of recreational shootings for the same reasons.

The only time the rules switch off is when you are confronted with an actual situation where you have made the determination that you either will, or are going to shoot, whether hunting, plinking or to defend yourself. For instance, wildburp was not in violation of rule 3 in his situation because he was prepared to shoot that individual, if need be.

We also have as a sub-conflict, the difference between "old school" as represented by Jordan, et al, and the "new technique" as represented by Cooper.

When I first entered law enforcement I was trained in the "old school". We carried either the Jordan River Holster or the Garrett holster. 'Bucket and String' holsters we called 'em. The holster did not cover the trigger of the revolver and any retaining device the holster had (snap-strap or thong) was only fastened when you thought you were going to get into an unarmed struggle with a perp. The rest of the time you were ready to 'slap leather'. (I also can't tell you how many times I had my gun flop out of my holster and land someplace inconvenient!)

The drawing sequence we were taught was different, too. When you grabbed your gun, you put your finger on the trigger and started pulling it while it was being drawn! If you did it right, when the gun came parallel to the ground and was leveled on the target, the shot broke. But problems crop up should something impede your draw stroke. Drawing from a seated position at a table or should someone grab your arm, for instance. The draw stroke has stopped but the trigger stroke hasn't! The result is a round that doesn't go where you intended.

Back then it wasn't that big a deal. Not so in todays legal climate. Any hint of carelessness will get you an audience with 12 of your peers. With proper training, the new technique is just as fast as the old school, more accurate and a lot safer.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Yez, ve must alvays obey zi roolz! :neener:

I have always known that the rules are a little different with a double action revolver, both in practice and application. This is the great advantage of the double action revolver over a single action auto. I cut my teeth on the double action revolver back in the 1980s. Studied folks like Bill Jordan, and learned proper technique under instruction from an NRA trained and certified defensive shooting instructor, also a retired deputy sheriff and a Bill Jordan fan. He taught me many things about the double action revolver. The double action revolver is an exception to the rule to a small degree. You may actually hold on someone using this weapon with the finger lightly on the trigger face (there is a technique to doing this which does not unduly risk an AD), without being prone to accidentally tripping off a round, as might be the case with a single action auto. We all don't need to be in lock step on this point, however.

The only time the rules switch off is when you are confronted with an actual situation where you have made the determination that you either will, or are going to shoot, whether hunting, plinking or to defend yourself. For instance, wildburp was not in violation of rule 3 in his situation because he was prepared to shoot that individual, if need be.What you have described here is condition orange, which is what I've been saying all along.

[pwrtool45]

The only time the rules switch off is when you are confronted with an actual situation where you have made the determination that you either will, or are going to shoot, whether hunting, plinking or to defend yourself. For instance, wildburp was not in violation of rule 3 in his situation because he was prepared to shoot that individual, if need be.

The only time my revolver is out of the holster is when I'm about to be shooting. I do not have my revolver unholstered and my finger on the trigger (violating Rule 3) while I'm leaned forward squinting at the target. I do not have my revolver unholstered and my finger on the trigger (violating Rule 3) while I'm conversing with another shooter. My revolver is either in the holster or in the process of acquiring a target and firing. Period.

We also have as a sub-conflict, the difference between "old school" as represented by Jordan, et al, and the "new technique" as represented by Cooper.


Eh, not necessarliy, no. The two are not mutually exclusive. What some may state is that Cooper's "New Technique" doesn't adequately account for revolver shooters. It, in some tangent fashion, says "Oh yeah, if you shoot a wheelgun you can do this, too." Cooper didn't care if it was optimal for revolver shooters. Cooper cared if it was optimal for 1911 shooters. Personally, as a revolver shooter I want optimal, not adequate.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Personally, as a revolver shooter I want optimal, not adequate.Absolutely correct.

[VA27]

Little Johnny was 2 hours late getting to school. When he arrived, his teacher asked, "Why are you late for class, Johnny?"

Johnny answered, "'Cause my paw sleeps nekked!"

Properly shocked, the teacher asks Johnny to explain himself.

Johnny says, " Well, 'bout 4 this mornin' we heard a rukus in the hen house. Paw jumped outa bed, grabbed his shotgun and went out to see what was goin' on. He used the barrel of the shotgun to ease open the hen house door so's he could peek inside, and 'bout that time Ol' Blue, my coonhound, come up behind paw and cold-nosed him. We been pluckin' chickens ever since!"

Rule 3

[gezzer]

The 4 rules were from a gun writer.

They are not from GOD or whatever, they are however COMMON SENSE but are not chiseled in stone.

Draw your DA with your finger on the trigger in time odds are You Will Shoot yourself in the leg.

Keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you want to pull the trigger period!!!!! How hard is that?

[The Real Hawkeye]

Keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you want to pull the trigger period!!!!! How hard is that?Yeah, you will be 100% certain not to have an AD that way, for sure, but you are also nullifying the huge advantage derived from the design of the double action revolver, and you might well end up dead as a result.

I don't personally advocate the finger on the trigger from the holster, but if I have my gun drawn, and condition is orange (which is about the only time I would have my gun drawn in any practical application), I will likely have my finger in contact with the trigger face even if I am not firing that second, and I don't believe that the risk is too great considering what's necessary to actually pull a double action trigger all the way to fire. If there is any risk at all, it is far outweighed by the benefits derived from finger contact with the trigger while in condition orange. Pulling a double action trigger all the way to fire is something that is generally only done on purpose, which is the beauty of the design to begin with, and its main advantage over the single action auto pistol.

You seem intent on negating that advantage with your rigid insistence that a rule be followed by double action revolver users which was popularized by a guy who only used single action autos. Once condition is orange, the finger goes in the trigger guard and makes contact with the trigger face. Your failure to understand the relative safety of this (and its great advantage) stems, perhaps, from your lack of familiarity with the design and its purpose. If you approach a double action revolver with the exact same template as you approach a single action auto, you might as well just advocate against anyone using the double action revolver for self defense. If this rule is universal, you'd have to be a fool to choose a double action revolver over a single action auto. You could never hope to win a gunfight with goblin this way. Why? Because accurately shooting a double action revolver is not something you can do in a jerking manner, as would needs be the case if you went from finger straight out to finger finding the trigger and finger squeezing the trigger in a disciplined manner so as to produce an accurate hit on target, all in a split second. This is a formula for disaster.

[Gordon]

I heard noises around the outside of the house at 3am the other day. It was hard to "switch on" from REM sleep as I grabbed the bedside CZ P0-1 with a Surefire 200 attached and 14 rounds of 127 grain Winchester Ranger ammo in the gun. It was chamberloaded and uncocked being a DA with a 10 pound DA pull. I was shining the light on the kitchen porch dogs dish when somebody came from my rear and was suddenly a few feet away:what: . I just came back from 24 hours of "close range CQB pistol" the week before and Yes it is true, you revert to your training: as I stepped back and I pivoted the gun butt locked in canted on my pectoral and the left arm to chest ready to block(and not shoot my hand off!) and I bellowed " WHO ARE YOU?!" at the top of my lungs. When my eyes focused on my son the RN who just got off work and wanted to check on my wifes high blood pressure, we were both glad my straight stiff trigger finger was not ever yet in the trigger guard from 30 years of training !:)

[The Real Hawkeye]

I bet that if you put equal effort into it, you could also train yourself not to pull a double action trigger on anyone unless you knew for sure you were ok with killing that person. That's the beauty of that long heavy trigger stroke. It can generally only be done intentionally. But do what gives you comfort, by all means. In a single action auto, I derive comfort only in keeping my finger straight out until the instant I wish to fire. In a double action revolver, I derive comfort in knowing that a long and deliberate trigger stroke is required before that round is headed towards a target.

[LightningJoe]

The first four rules are unnecessary if you obey Rule 5: Stand behind me.

[JohnBT]

"if I have my gun drawn, and condition is orange (which is about the only time I would have my gun drawn in any practical application), I will likely have my finger in contact with the trigger face even if I am not firing that second"

That's the way I was taught, but it was many decades ago. The thinking was that if you had a reason to have a loaded gun pointed at something, or somebody, you had better be ready to fire it and every split second mattered. Now, maybe this was WWII- and Korea-era thinking brought home by the vets, but the lawmen in the family subscribed to it as well.

John

[Cosmoline]

The defenders of the Four Rules preach them like gospel. Literally:

The Four Rules always apply, always. The Four Rules are NOT dependent upon a weapon type. Jeff Cooper taught pistol, revover, carbine, rifle, machine gun, shotgun, etc. The Four Rules apply everywhere we are.

... and Jeff Cooper is their Prophet :D

So while I've heard the Cooper mantras chanted over and over again in this thread, I haven't heard any specific dangers of keeping your finger in the guard and thumb on hammer of a revolver on presentation, prior and leading up to aiming. This violates the Third Rule (hallowed be its name), but it ALSO ensures no tangles on the way out. And tangles are a serious issue for wheelguns, and a potentially dangerous one. You have two big vulnerable areas for tangles-the big trigger and the big hammer. Protect both with your thumb and finger on the way out and the danger is minimized. That's why I do it, anyway. I'm not sure how the revolver is going to go off becuase I'm holding it that way. In all my years my finger has never suddenly developed a mind of its own, and even if it did my thumb stops the hammer dead.

There are a lot of references to other issues, such as keeping your finger on the hair trigger of a shotgun or covering people with the barrel of a firearm. These are not at issue here. I'm talking about revolvers. I also have to wonder how many folks have relied on wheelguns for self defense. Keeping your finger out of that huge trigger guard is actually very difficult on most wheelguns. On older models it's nearly impossible when you're in a hurry. They're designed to be held with your finger on the trigger, ready to go. The weight of the trigger and the movement of the hammer are the safeties, and they were hashed out long before Cooper was around. If you keep the finger out until you've aimed you risk a delay or even worse a poor balance on presentation, because your index finger is pressing the frame. It's not like a slab-sided 1911. If balance is off, when you insert the finger the sights shift and you have to re-aquire even before you pull the trigger.

For DAO revolvers, obviously this changes and you must keep your finger clear. This is one reason I don't trust them. I want to know where both hammer and trigger are with tactile contact.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/miculek.jpg

[Nightcrawler]

For me, the finger goes on the trigger when the sights are on target. When the gun is pointing anywhere else, the finger is off the trigger.

Meaning if the gun is drawn and pointing at the badguy, it's okay for the finger to be on the trigger. If the gun is at low ready and no target is apparent, the finger is straight.

This is how I do it.

I've heard of the "priming the trigger" technique where you begin pulling the trigger as you're drawing.

While that may work for some people, I'm patently uncomfortable with beginning to pull the trigger before the gun is pointing downrange. In the above picture, the muzzle IS downrange, even though the gun is on the table.

At no point will my finger be on my trigger while the gun is coming out of the holster and the muzzle is pointing down towards my leg. The thought of a big .44 slug tearing through my thigh and exploding out of my kneecap gives me the heebie-geebies.

[Nematocyst]

Subscribed to this thread.

Revolver (642 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=138658)) on my side.

Trigger finger on the keyboard ("j").

But wait! What was the question? :uhoh: :eek: :what:

[Cosmoline]

the muzzle IS downrange, even though the gun is on the table.

That's a different rule, one which again we're not even talking about. The key is, those sights aren't on the target! So it's a technical violation of Rule 3, just like keeping your finger in the guard as you draw from a pocket or bag. But that's the grip the hand naturally assumes when picking up a revolver or drawing it. How is the firearm going to suddenly go off? The thumb is kept on hammer until the revolver comes up on the target, whereupon it is either cocked or left to cycle in double action mode. Until that happens, and until you decide to apply major muscle pressure to the trigger, the revolver will not fire. The hair trigger of a rifle or single action pistol is an entirely different animal, and if you notice theose firearms are designed to allow for comfortable and balanced carrying of the firearm with the finger well outside the trigger guard.

[Nightcrawler]

But that's the grip the hand naturally assumes when picking up a revolver or drawing it.

That's the grip the hand naturally assumes when grasping any firearm, since in order to fire it your finger has to be on the trigger. Revolvers aren't unique in this regard.

The point I was trying to make is that since the muzzle is downrange, if the competition shooter pictured flubs and has an ND (however unlikely), no harm done.

How is the firearm going to suddenly go off?

The same way they ALWAYS "go off"; the shooter gets to excited or startled and reflexively pulls the trigger. Fortunately, the revolver is much more forgiving of poor trigger finger discipline than most guns, so it's less of an issue.

You're correct in that if you apply pressure to the hammer, this is unlikely (almost impossible) to happen. But putting your thumb on the hammer practically requires you to have your finger on the trigger, otherwise you won't have a solid grip. And it doesn't work on hammerless guns.

As for putting your finger on the trigger while drawing...not me. If that works for you, more power to you, but putting my thumb on the hammer (which weakens the grip on the gun for me) isn't even an option on my concelaed-hammer snubby.

Keeping my finger off of the trigger until the gun is pointing away from me is muscle memory for me, and I prefer to stick with it.

[Nematocyst]

But that's the grip the hand naturally assumes when picking up a revolver or drawing it.
How is the firearm going to suddenly go off?Stephen: [Speaking heavenward, with his mouth full] Him? That can't be William Wallace. I'm prettier than this man. All right Father, I'll ask him. [To William] If I risk my neck for you, will I get a chance to kill Englishmen?

Hamish: Is your father a ghost, or do you converse with the Almighty?

Stephen: In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to God. [Heavenward]
Yes, Father. [To William and Hamish] The Almighty says don't change the subject,
just answer the ****ing question.

Hamish: Mind your tongue.

Campbell: Obscene Irish.

[Stephen pulls a sharpened stick and holds it to the throat of Campbell]
Stephen: Smart enough to get a dagger past your guards, old man.

William: That's my friend, Irishman. And the answer your question is yes -
if you fight for me, you get to kill the English.

Stephen: Excellent! Stephen is my name. I'm the most wanted man on my island.
Except I'm not on my island of course. More's the pity.

Hamish: Your island? You mean Ireland.
Stephen: Yeah. It's mine.

Hamish: You're a madman.

Stephen: [laughs] I've come to the right place then.

[Nightcrawler]

No, Cosmo, you're not crazy. At least not because of this.

It seems to me it's six in one or half-dozen in the other. You can have you finger on the trigger and thumb on the hammer to prevent NDs, or you can have your thumb off the hammer and your finger off the trigger. I have to disagree with you on it being difficult to keep the finger off the trigger on a DA revolver; if your finger is too short to keep it straight, you can put up "in register" alongside the frame. My finger is long enough, though.

Either way, you have to move a digit to fire. You have to put your finger in the trigger guard on one, or move your thumb out of the way on the other.

If you go tromping around with your finger on the trigger and thumb NOT blocking the hammer, in my opinion you're asking for trouble. If you have your thumb blocking the hammer and your finger off of the trigger, you have only a shaky grasp on your gun.

Either method can work, I think, it's just a matter of preference.

just answer the ****ing question.

Charming, Nem. Again:

The same way they ALWAYS "go off"; the shooter gets too excited, or startled, or trips while moving, and reflexively pulls the trigger.

If you have your thumb on the hammer (in the proper position, not simply resting on it), this generally prevents this from happening. However, since one of my revolvers has a concealed hammer (the one I carry in my pocket), the thumb on the hammer isn't an option. Since it's carried in a pocket holster, the finger can't be on the trigger while it's in my pocket (which I greatly prefer).

As the gun comes up and the sights align, I move my finger into the trigger guard. By the time my sights are lined up, the finger is on the trigger and I'm ready to shoot. That's the way I do it with all of my handguns, not just revovlers, and it works for me. (In a quick draw & shoot situation, I mean.)

MY natural grip is to simply grasp the thing. I'm not anymore naturally inclined to put my thumb on the hammer of a revolver than I am to put my thumb on the safety of a 1911. Since that's the case, I adopt a very similar grip for nearly all handguns, and that works for me.

The four rules are not set in stone, as has been said. For example, with a single action revolver, as long as the hammer's not cocked, you can do jumping jacks with your finger on the trigger and there's still absolutely no chance of an ND. But the finger-off-the-trigger bit is as much habit for me as anything.

[Nightcrawler]

Perhaps some pictures will help.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=49447&d=1166346117

Finger off of the trigger (straight).

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=49448&d=1166346126

Finger in register, in case the trigger guard is too long for your finger. Some prefer this method regardless.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=49449&d=1166346131

Cosmoline's method, as near as I can figure. Note the thumb blocking the hammer. If you trip or are startled, and reflexively "grip", the thumb pressure will prevent the revolver from cycling. Cosmo, did I get that right?

[Cosmoline]

reflexively pulls the trigger.

"Reflexively" pulls an 8 to 12 lb. trigger? That's not a reflex, it's a grand mal seizure! Nevertheless, I would not touch the trigger of a DAO revolver, which is one reason I don't like DAO's.

Nightcrawler, that's one way. I usually hold the hammer from directly behind the spur or with my thumb firmly on top of the spur.

[Nightcrawler]

"Reflexively" pulls an 8 to 12 lb. trigger? That's not a reflex, it's a grand mal seizure!

I didn't say it was likely. But it HAS happened.

The fact that you prefer to keep your thumb on the hammer to control the lockwork, as you put it, tells me that this is at least a minor concern to you as well.

Otherwise, what you're arguing is that since revolvers have heavy trigger pulls you don't need to concern yourself with trigger finger discipline, and I don't agree with that.

Cooper's four rules aren't "just for 1911s", as has been suggested. They're a guideline (as opposed to an iron-clad inviolable rule) for general weapons handling. As a rule, running around with your finger on the trigger is asking for an ND. You might never have one, but why run the extra risk?

Now, as I said, double action revolvers are more forgiving of this than most guns, but that doesn't mean that NDs are impossible with them. IF you block the hammer, then it becomes a non-issue. Personally, I don't see the need to complicate it like that by assuming a different grip technique for some revolvers than I would with a concealed-hammer revolver or an automatic.

I usually hold the hammer from directly behind the spur or with my thumb firmly on top of the spur.

I wondered if that might have been what you were talking about. Again, I think it's really just a matter of preferance.

[pwrtool45]

Little Johnny was 2 hours late getting to school. When he arrived, his teacher asked, "Why are you late for class, Johnny?"

Johnny answered, "'Cause my paw sleeps nekked!"

Properly shocked, the teacher asks Johnny to explain himself.

Johnny says, " Well, 'bout 4 this mornin' we heard a rukus in the hen house. Paw jumped outa bed, grabbed his shotgun and went out to see what was goin' on. He used the barrel of the shotgun to ease open the hen house door so's he could peek inside, and 'bout that time Ol' Blue, my coonhound, come up behind paw and cold-nosed him. We been pluckin' chickens ever since!"

Rule 3

I...uh...what?

Well, I guess...I guess that's a failure of Rule 3 alright.

And Rule 2, since I guess he didn't want the chickens destroyed.

And Rule 4, since I guess he didn't want the chickens destroyed.

They say you can only violate 2 of the 4. I guess you can only violate 2 of the 3, as well. A short-stroke, light-trigger shotgun isn't exactly a DA revolver, though. Not sure how this applies.

There appears to be some miscommunication here. It's as though some think the people advocating Rule 3's less-than-perfect applicability to the revolver shooter are willing to violate all the other rules. As though they are willing to walk around with their gun unholstered and finger on the trigger as a matter of course. Maybe waving it around, too. I addressed this in my original post back on page 1, but let me reiterate: The gun is in the holster or the gun is about to be shooting. Anything in-between is administrative (e.g., low-ready) and Rule 3 is in effect. As TRH has pointed out a couple of times, Rule 3 has a narrow window of inapplicability when using a DA revolver. If you do not use the DA revolver as your primary defensive pistol, then you are free to continue using Rule 3 the same as you would with a 3.5# 1911. This is sub-optimal but if it gives you some peace of mind continue to do so.

Cooper's four rules aren't "just for 1911s", as has been suggested. They're a guideline (as opposed to an iron-clad inviolable rule) for general weapons handling. As a rule, running around with your finger on the trigger is asking for an ND

They aren't just for 1911s in that yeah, they can indeed work for something other than a 1911. I don't think anyone is contesting that. What some are saying is that Cooper didn't care if it was optimal for revolver shooters. Cooper cared that it was optimal for his baby, the 1911. Personally, as a revolver shooter I want optimal, not adequate. (Paraphrased from my previous post.) I'll look to other trainers who actually gave more than passing consideration toward the use of a revolver in the development of their training dogma. Not to a trainer who looked at it as an afterthought.

I agree about the guideline part, though. Hence the narrow window in which Rule 3 is...negotiable...when using a DA revolver. Nobody is saying that it's never ever applicable.

why run the extra risk?

As I've said before. You can mitigate the risk of an ND even more by carrying an unloaded gun. The added risk in both cases in infinitesimal, and the benefit is noticeable. I think we disagree on this point.

Personally, I don't see the need to complicate it like that by assuming a different grip technique for some revolvers than I would with a concealed-hammer revolver or an automatic.

If you are concerned about this habit carrying over to other platforms then you should continue using Rule 3 as you would with a 1911. Honestly, if you switch platforms frequently or don't use a DA revolver frequently this is probably the best course of action. Personally, though, when I pick up a Garand, my finger doesn't reflexively wrap around the trigger. When I pick up an AR-15, my finger doesn't reflexively wrap around the trigger. When I pick up my XD, my finger doesn't reflexively wrap around the trigger. My finger does not, upon coming within close proximity of a trigger, manifest a will of its own and being wrapping itself around said trigger. ;)

With a longarm, the handling procedure is completely different than that of a pistol. My hands are in a different position, as are my fingers. Keeping the two separate has never been a problem. With other pistols, though, I agree with you. I'd imagine this would work as well as routinely switching between two pistols with a different manual of arms (say, a Beretta 92 and a 1911). Personally, being ambidextrous, I tend to carry autos on my "weak" (right) side. Maybe it's a case of an ambi's brain being wired differently, but pulling a pistol out of the holster with my right hand has a completely different initial reflex than doing the same with my left hand. YMMV.


Also, this is might be a bit confusing because I'm beginning to realize that Cosmoline, The Real Hawkeye and myself differ slightly in the details on how we think Rule 3 applies to revolvers, but agree in principle.

[The Real Hawkeye]

At no point will my finger be on my trigger while the gun is coming out of the holster and the muzzle is pointing down towards my leg.I'm with you on that point, but I would never presume to tell someone else not to follow the advice of someone like Jordan. So long as that's how they've trained, I have no problem with it. Just not for me. Once drawn, though, and condition is orange, my trigger finger is in contact with the trigger, assuming we are talking about a conventional double action revolver (Disclaimer: This rule of thumb does not generalize to ANY other action type, and Cooper's rules 1,2 and 4 are in full force at ALL times, regardless of action type.).

[Nightcrawler]

I don't think the added risk of having your finger on the trigger is infintecimal. Every time some fool has a negligent discharge and cries, "It just went off!" is a time when he shouldn't have had his finger on the trigger. Unless you're going to argue that these types of NDs (as opposed to the "I thought it wasn't loaded!" type) never happen with revolvers, then trigger finger management remains important.

It's NOT a huge issue when you're on the firing line. What I'm talking about is if you've got your weapon drawn and are running, crawling, moving to cover, trying to get through the brush, etc. In a situation like that, having your finger on the trigger can be a bad thing. It isn't a matter of your finger "getting a will of its own". It's a simple matter of the natural gripping reflex that occurs under stress, like white-knuckling your steering wheel.

Honestly, if you switch platforms frequently or don't use a DA revolver frequently this is probably the best course of action.

Actually, I shoot revolvers quite a bit more than my Gov't Model. I still don't feel the need to change styles, start putting my thumb on the hammer and finger on the trigger when drawing. Either way, you have to move a digit before you can pull the trigger, and I'm NOT going to do the Bill Jordan "priming the trigger" technique (where you begin pulling the trigger during the draw stroke). It takes a lot less time for me to pull the trigger than it does for me to draw; I'm used to doing a quick, smooth trigger stroke. I'd worry that if I tried to begin pulling the trigger as the gun was coming up, I'd put the round into the dirt or into my leg. You'd have to time it just right, and it'd take a lot of practice.

I'm not a phenomenal sixgun shooter, but the long trigger pull doesn't hamper rapid fire for me. (The recoil of the .44 does, though.) (Note that during rapid fire, you do begin pulling the trigger as your muzzle is coming down from recoil, before your sights are aligned. While I suppose it's a technical rule 3 violation, your muzzle is down range and pointed at the badguys.)

What I'm not understanding is the advantage to this method. Do you guys "prime" the trigger? The way I shoot, the finger is in contact with the trigger (again, in a quick draw & shoot scenario) as soon as the muzzle is on target. Moving my finger from the trigger guard to the trigger takes but a fraction of a second, no more than, say, thumbing the safety off of a 1911.

I'm curious as to how you guys perform your draw & shoot move.

[pwrtool45]

Here's part of that confusion I was talking about. I don't advocate putting your thumb on the hammer. I think that was Cosmo.

What I'm saying is that I do not abide by the "finger is off the trigger and on the frame until you have a sight picture, then you may, as a separate action, remove the trigger finger from the side of the frame and place it on the trigger." The trigger finger goes into the trigger guard (note, this is different from putting the finger on the trigger itself) as part of the draw stroke. By the time the pistol is at full extension the finger is now on the trigger and as the front sight is placed in the primary focal plane the trigger begins moving rearward.

Speed is achieved through the removal of excess motion. Placing the finger forward on the frame and then moving it back to the trigger is wasted motion. Fractions of a second add up.

When moving with the pistol drawn, if there are targets visible, then the finger is in the guard because the front sight is either transitioning between targets or is already on target. If no targets are visible or the decision to just move instead of move and fire has been made, then Rule 3 is in effect.

Every time some fool has a negligent discharge and cries, "It just went off!" is a time when he shouldn't have had his finger on the trigger

*shrug* As has been pointed out, every time said fool has a negligent discharge is a time when he shouldn't have had a loaded gun. Jordan advocated a much looser interpretation of Rule 3 than Cooper. Jordan favored a wheelgun. Cooper favored a 1911.

edits for clarity below:

takes but a fraction of a second, no more than, say, thumbing the safety off of a 1911.

Disengaging the safety on a 1911 isn't wasted motion, though. During the draw, the thumb is placed on the safety lever. Before firing, the thumb will disengage the safety by pressing down. At no point is the thumb anywhere else and the motion is performed only once. Where this happens in the draw stroke doesn't really matter. Now, if you were to put your thumb under the safety, maybe to make really sure it doesn't accidentally get disengaged, then move it to the top of the safety and then push down that would be wasted motion.

[The Real Hawkeye]

I don't think the added risk of having your finger on the trigger is infintecimal. Every time some fool has a negligent discharge and cries, "It just went off!" is a time when he shouldn't have had his finger on the trigger. Unless you're going to argue that these types of NDs (as opposed to the "I thought it wasn't loaded!" type) never happen with revolvers, then trigger finger management remains important.It certainly can happen. In fact, I will venture to say, most people who own double action revolvers probably don't even know how they are intended to be used. My father, for example, was never a revolver man (Though he owned a shotgun and knew how to use it), and didn't know the first thing about them. One night he and my brother were home alone, and just so happened that the only loaded gun handy was my brother's revolver. Well, it was late, and there was a commotion outside, and my father grabs the loaded revolver and proceeds to cock the hammer and run around with it in this condition. My brother, who knows a thing or two about double action revolvers was horrified, and very carefully acquired control of the revolver, placing it back in its intended condition. Now, my father very easily could have had an accidental discharge with that revolver. So, yes, the answer to your question is that double action revolvers are not immune to accidental discharges. It all depends on who's handling them.

[earplug]

Written by Gregory Boyce Morrison
Jeff Cooper, Editorial Adviser
When working with a DA pistol or revolver.

Page 80 The trigger finger contacts the trigger but no appreciable pressure is applied.

I tend to use Bill Jordans method of a earlier trigger contact and pull.
I don't understand the benifit of having my thumb on a revolver hammer. Would slow getting a good grip during my draw.
My 642 and 638 would be confused.

Cooper taught SA pistol, Jordan taught DA revolver

[The Real Hawkeye]

Cooper taught SA pistol, Jordan taught DA revolver.
+1

[Cosmoline]

The fact that you prefer to keep your thumb on the hammer to control the lockwork, as you put it, tells me that this is at least a minor concern to you as well.

The main reason I keep my thumb on the spur is to keep it from snagging on winter clothing. I really don't understand how it's possible for person to reflexively pull a double action revolver trigger. It has to be intentional and deliberate.

[GRIZ22]

If you are holding your weapon with finger on the trigger and thumb on the hammer and you trip you'll be in trobule. You (me or anyone else) tends to grab by reflex and you will find your thumb going down to meet your trigger finger which will be pulling the trigger back. The grab is reflex in order to grab on to something so it will easily overcome a DA trigger. A lot of UID, ND, or AD whatever you want to call it have happened this way.

Why would you want to keep your finger on the trigger and thumb on the hammer anyway. This requires two motions (index finger and thumb) to fire. Keep your finger off the trigger and you don't have to worry what the hammer is doing if your firearm is working properly.

Putting your finger on the trigger during the draw is okay for quick draw demonstrations and such but has no place in combat shooting. The quick presentation and follow through are imp[ressive to see but what if your opponent drops their gun as they see you draw? I've seen this happen.

[Cosmoline]

Well I've fallen hundreds of times, this being a universe of ice for six months a year. And I have never felt the urge or instinct to squeeze my revolver. The instinctive reaction is to reach out with your hands, dropping anything you're carrying. I remember one particularly bad spill when I was trying to walk across a half-frozen wooden bridge last summer. The Mosin that was in my hands flew up and over, landing in the river below. I instinctively tossed it aside to free up my hands.

A lot of UID, ND, or AD whatever you want to call it have happened this way.


Specific examples with revolvers?

Why would you want to keep your finger on the trigger and thumb on the hammer anyway. This requires two motions (index finger and thumb) to fire. Keep your finger off the trigger and you don't have to worry what the hammer is doing if your firearm is working properly.

I find it's an easy matter to shift my thumb off the hammer as I raise the revolver. I find it's extremely difficult to keep the revolver balanced if I keep my finger pressing against the frame until on target. The pressure from my index finger cants the revolver over to the left, and throws my whole grip off. I have to re-grip and adjust once on target. That's simply not acceptable if I'm having to shoot in a hurry.

[Nightcrawler]

Specific examples with revolvers?

Haven't seen one myself. But are you going to argue that a negligent discharge with a DA revolver is impossible because it has a heavy trigger?

The pressure from my index finger cants the revolver over to the left, and throws my whole grip off. I

Why would this problem happen only with revolvers? Every pistol is more solidly gripped if your finger is on the trigger; with your finger on the frame, you're grasping it with one less finger.

[BullfrogKen]

OK. Cooper and Jordon are not the Apostle Jeff and Saint Bill.

I first heard of the Four Rules of Universal Gun Handling as a young Marine, before I knew they were handed down on stone tablets written by the Hand of God Himself. And we followed them with our rifles, pistols, and machine guns without knowing their origins. It was impossible to Never do, but we were muzzle conscious, kept our fingers off the triggers, etc.

I don't think its wise to think we can carelessly ignore a rule because our weapons system is OK with it, or since it has a larger margin of error so it doesn't apply.


All this said, I do think there are times when we will consciously and deliberately violate those rules because its appropriate or necessary. Are we masters of the rules, or mastered by them.

However, I do not agree with the rationale that a revolvers longer trigger pull is one of those circumstances. If you want to, go ahead. I don't think you'll have much success convincing folks. Training evolves. Jordan may have advocated it. I'm sure there are still a few out there that do.

I don't think this rule has anything to do with lawyers, but safety, and not shooting people and things we didn't intend.


This thread is degrading into banter about nonsense, who is right, who has more credibility, and who is/was entitled to teach this/that. Its not far from being locked.

[The Real Hawkeye]

This thread is degrading into banter about nonsense, who is right, who has more credibility, and who is/was entitled to teach this/that. Its not far from being locked.Have to disagree there. No one on my side of this debate has done anything but make well reasoned arguments based on facts, experience and widely acknowledged expert opinion. Some people on this thread are being doctrinaire, mixed in with insults for those who disagree, but that's only coming from the other side. May I suggest that you direct your criticism towards them, rather than generally as if you cannot distinguish between reasoned arguments and doctrinaire insults?

Regarding what you said about the Marines, it's only natural. Marines don't handle a lot of double action revolvers, and if they did they'd likely be instructed by people who do most of their instructing in automatic and bolt action rifles, automatic pistols, pump and automatic shotguns and subguns. ALL handlers of those weapons are well advised to follow all four of Cooper's rules at ALL stages of gun handling, regardless of circumstances. Double action revolvers, however, are a different animal altogether, with different rules developed long ago by men who made their livings fighting for their lives with them.

[GRIZ22]

1. Some people may throw their weapon away when they fall. If you throw it away you certainly can't squeeze the trigger.

2. I have seen people slip when running with a revolver in their hand and fire. This was during tactical (running from cover to cover) training, during IPSC type competition, and have known it to happen when LEOs are chasing BGs with a revolver in their hand (the BG was armed). Fortunately no one was hurt.

3. Keeping your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire is a basic gunhandling rule, Cooper or no Cooper.

4. Cosmo you don't have to push on the frame. You just have to park your finger on it. You shouldn't be finger wrestling between your thumb and index finger. If you have your thumb in a normal grip instead of on the hammer, it would oppose any pressure from your index finger.

[pwrtool45]

OK. Cooper and Jordon are not the Apostle Jeff and Saint Bill.

I agree. In Aristotelian rhetorical discourse, appeals to authority are usually met with an appeal to equal authority. Since people brought up Cooper (instead of discussing the point on its own merit), Jordan seemed a natural counter. I think they both had some interesting things to say and a lot of time has passed since their day. This was not as a "my Saint is better than your Apostle" retort. I couldn't agree with you more in spirit.

I do think there are times when we will consciously and deliberately violate those rules because its appropriate or necessary.

That's the crux of my position in one sentence. It's not limited to one platform.

[.38 Special]

Anyone who insists on keeping their finger off of the trigger until the sights are aligned on target does not compete. Or at least not successfully. :D

Take a close look at any footage of top competitors and you will see fingers on triggers as the gun comes up.

In point of fact, someone earlier asked "Do we know of any instructors who are teaching contrary to Rule 3?" -- I know at least one: Jerry Miculek. Get a copy of his tape and see him explaining that the trigger must be "prepped" -- ie. pulled partway -- as the gun is drawn. Keeping the finger off the trigger until the gun is on target is described as "a waste of time".

Still seems to me that the point of keeping the trigger off the trigger when not firing is to avoid NDs while walking around, stalking a deer, holstering, etc. Practices that could, at worst, result in a shot into the dirt in front of the target do not strike me as especially worrisome. So really, insisting that the trigger is off limits until the exact instant the shot is desired strikes me as a bit silly. Certainly it is contrary to what essentially all competitive pistoleros do.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Well said, .38 Special.

[John C]

I thought Bill Jordan was known for having accidentally shot and killed one of his partners on the Border Patrol. Seriously.

-John

[Cosmoline]

I've heard several versions of the rumor, but none of them involve Jordan accidentally pulling the trigger of his wheelgun. The story is he intentionally aimed his revolver at a wall and intentionally pulled the trigger on what he thought was an unloaded firearm. So again even if it's true it has bupkus to do with this thread.

[John C]

Actually, Cosmoline, I think that the rumor you cite reinforces what VA27 has said, which was basically that you can violate one of Cooper's rules and get away with it most of the time, but you violate two rules and you're probably going to have something bad happen. Violate three rules and some bad WILL happen.

Jordan advocated breaking one of Cooper's rules with a double-action revolver. That works almost all the time. Violate two rules (all guns are loaded, don't point your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy, and perhaps know your target and what lies beyond) and you can get into trouble.

I in no way wish to denigrate Bill Jordan as a shooter, a person, or a law enforcement officer. Anyone can, and will, make mistakes. Forgive and drive on. However, I feel that there's no shame in learning lessons from others' mistakes.

-John

[Glamdring]

If your hunting or using a gun for self defense vs shooting on a range you need to use MORE care about gun safety. Because you don't have the artifical safety advantages of a gunrange! You need to be clear on your target and what is behind it.


There are going to be REAL people you don't want to shoot. In the real world there is no "safe" direction to point the weapon, there is no down range or uprange.

You may have multiple opponents. With family members or other innocents inbetween.

If you don't think you can get your first shot off fast enough without using a dangerous technique (ie putting finger on trigger before your ready to shoot) then practice more.

[The Real Hawkeye]

If your hunting or using a gun for self defense vs shooting on a range you need to use MORE care about gun safety. Because you don't have the artifical safety advantages of a gunrange! You need to be clear on your target and what is behind it.


There are going to be REAL people you don't want to shoot. In the real world there is no "safe" direction to point the weapon, there is no down range or uprange.

You may have multiple opponents. With family members or other innocents inbetween.

If you don't think you can get your first shot off fast enough without using a dangerous technique (ie putting finger on trigger before your ready to shoot) then practice more.I absolutely agree with that statement if we are not talking about a double action revolver. Been an avid handgun shooter for close to thirty years, all kinds of actions. You have to weigh in risks vs benefits. With anything but a double action revolver in double action mode, the risks associated with having your finger inside the trigger guard short of the instant you need it there are too high in relation to the slight benefit you derive. With DA revolvers, however, there is a huge shift in the risk/benefit ratio. The risk of AD drops dramatically, while the benefit of being able to place a quick shot accurately skyrockets in comparison to the alternative. That quick DA shot is very likely to be necessary in condition orange, and it is ONLY in condition orange that the risk/benefit ratio shifts sufficiently to justify this very narrow exception to rule 3, and that ONLY for DA revolvers.

We really are talking about an entirely different animal with an entirely different risk/benefit ratio regarding finger inside trigger guard. It is not a small difference. It is not a moderate difference. It is a huge difference. Those who did not cut their teeth on DA revolvers are forgiven for not appreciating this fact, however. Being doctrinaire with regard to safety rules seems like the right attitude when one lacks the experience to appreciate subtle and not so subtle distinctions.

[.38 Special]

I thought Bill Jordan was known for having accidentally shot and killed one of his partners on the Border Patrol. Seriously.
It's been brought up and shot down before. It just didn't happen. Too bad it's too arcane for Snopes.

[.38 Special]

You may have multiple opponents. With family members or other innocents inbetween.
So are you going to shoot bad guy #1, remove your finger from the trigger and carefully lay it on the frame, raise the muzzle of the gun to clear the innocent's head as you sweep over to bad guy #2, lower the muzzle back down into position, place your finger back onto the trigger and fire? Really?

I'm reminded of a discussion I once had with a "Zero Tolerance" school board member. "Follow the rules! No exceptions! It's easier than thinking!"

Well, okay, she didn't actually say the last bit... LMAO.

[Imaginos]

Condition Orange has been brought up as a time when Rule 3 may be broken. However, in reviewing the definition of Condition Orange, I find nothing in it that indicates that a condition exists that would require a defensive weapon to be presented prior to moving to Condition Red. Once in Condition Red, you are in the final process of the decision to shoot, but the trigger has not yet been pulled. Nothing in the definition of Condition Orange or Red indicates that any of the 4 Rules have been relaxed until you have made the decision a specific target must be shot. After that decision has been made, Rule 3 is suspended.

I have reread Elmer Keith's book "Sixguns" where he discusses quick draw, and he talks about violating Rule 3 during the quick draw, but the first section of that chapter discusses the use of the quick draw as part of a defensive response, so it implies a Condition Red situation exists before the hand ever touches the gun. This same logic would apply to Jordan's discussion and to competitive shooters as well. The buzzer is a Condition Red signal, and they have a clearly defined target, so Rule 3 is suspended until the target is hit. I still see no logic in suspending Rule 3 prior to Condition Red.

Gunsite Color Code c/o http://www.frfrogspad.com/color.htm
White - Relaxed, unaware, and unprepared. If attacked in this state the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy and ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty your reaction will probably be, "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."

Yellow - Relaxed alertness. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself." There is no specific threat but you are aware that the world is an unfriendly place and that you are prepared to do something if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and your carriage says "I am alert." You don't have to be armed in this state but if you are armed you must be in yellow. When confronted by something nasty your reaction will probably be, "I thought this might happen some day." You can live in this state indefinitely.

Orange - Specific alert. Something not quite right has gotten your attention and you shift your primary focus to that thing. Something is "wrong" with a person or object. Something may happen. Your mindset is that "I may have to shoot that person." Your pistol is usually holstered in this state. You can maintain this state for several hours.

Red - Fight trigger. This is your mental trigger. "If that person does "x" I will shoot them." Your pistol may, but not necessarily, be in your hand.

[Bix]

Quote:
"Reflexively" pulls an 8 to 12 lb. trigger? That's not a reflex, it's a grand mal seizure!

I didn't say it was likely. But it HAS happened.

Indeed, it can be replicated in a laboratory:

Heim ran 25 participants (13 female and 12 male, average age 25, all armed with the sensor-equipped SIG) through repetitions of 13 vigorous movements common to police work while their index finger was on the trigger.

In about 6 per cent of cases, enough trigger pressure was registered to have fired the pistol had it been uncocked (that is, mechanically set for an initial double-action trigger pull). In about 20 per cent of cases, the pressure was sufficient to have fired the gun had it been cocked (as with secondary rounds). The gun used had a 12-pound double-action trigger pull and a 5-pound pull, single-action.



Source:

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/frontend/parser.cfm?object=Columnists&tmpl=article&id=94371

[The Real Hawkeye]

Imaginos, as I remembered it, red meant you had decided to shoot, not that you would shoot if somebody did X, which I thought was condition orange. If red is the latter, then looks like I remembered the condition codes wrong. Substitute red in place of orange in my previous posts.

[Cousin Mike]

This guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7QeKIGQVMk) might have something interesting to say if we could talk to him. :D

[The Real Hawkeye]

Notice, however, that that guy was carrying a semi auto when he tripped. I don't say it's impossible to do that with a double action revolver, only that the risk/benefit ratio is slanted in favor of finger on trigger in DA mode when, and only when, combat is likely immanent.

[Cosmoline]

In the real world there is no "safe" direction to point the weapon, there is no down range or uprange.

This is a perfect example of how interpreting Cooper's rules as holy writ will get you into trouble. If you follow them to the letter, then you would never be able to pick up a firearm to get it to the range in the first place! It's madness.

to have fired the pistol

The operative word being PISTOL. We're not talking about pistols here. The test involved P226 pistols, and I don't think anyone here has suggested, or would suggest, resting a finger on the trigger of such a firearm. Even if the pistol has a heavy DA trigger pull, the ergonomics are totally different. You don't mess with the hammer at all. The P226 barely has one. And you sure as heck don't rest your thumb on it!!

Moreover, we're not talking about walking around doing chores with your finger on the trigger.

This guy might have something interesting to say if we could talk to him

AGAIN, HE HAS A PISTOL! Nobody is suggesting you can ever touch the trigger of a pistol prior to getting it on target.

[Cousin Mike]

No real interest in the debate here, as both sides have made good points. I just thought it was kind of funny. Made me think though, since a lot of semi-autos are DA/SA with a heavy first pull, so it's obviously possible.. And maybe not as unlikely as one might think.

[SniperStraz]

Yes it's an important rule, but as a responsible firearm owner you need to be able to make a judgement call as to if it is safe or not based on the action of your personal unique weapon. After all, Cooper isn't shooting the gun, you are, and if the SHTF you spend your life in prison not Cooper.

[The Real Hawkeye]

It's obviously possible.. And maybe not as unlikely as one might think.Again, their is a risk associated with just about every activity we engage in. Driving a car is risky, to a degree, but the benefits outweigh the risks. The life saving value of finger on trigger when, and only when, combat is immanent outweighs the very slight risk of accidentally shooting someone with a double action revolver while in double action mode. I'm about as likely to accidentally run someone over with my car as I am to accidentally shoot someone with a double action revolver in double action mode, especially when rules 1,2 and 4 are observed.

[Gordon]

"Red - Fight trigger. This is your mental trigger. "If that person does "x" I will shoot them." Your pistol may, but not necessarily, be in your hand. "

This is indeed Col. Coopers rule

The gun is not a Samurai Sword where the draw stroke is the cutting stroke.I mean by this "fast draw" western style games are just that-games.

Col. Cooper lectured a small group I was in this last April on the color codes as they apply to mental/moral state of actually conciously taking a life. He said in this society that is becoming a "nation of cowards" few are really prepared to take deadly action ONCE THEY HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO THE REALITY OF DOING IT. Of course a coward is readily capable of killing if his mindset is based on fantasy.
I wonder how many in this discussion have gone thru professional gun handling courses? I don't remember any I have been to where a finger was allowed in a trigger guard until the gun is presented toward the danger.I will continue to keep ,even on the myriad of DA and SA wheel guns I shoot, my finger out of the trigger guard until ready to shoot (condition Red) and not feel handicapped in the least. BTW all real High speed low drag operators (the real thing) I have trained with in the last 25 years also keep thir fingers out of trigger guard unless condition red. I had a NYPD detective uncle who in the 40s and 50s kept his finger in the trigger guard, and I was trained by Chic Gaylord to do so at a very young age in the late 50s early 60s, but Thank the Holy Kahki (and Col. Cooper) I was born again into the 'Modern Technique' for almost 40 years of safe gun handling since then!:cool:

[Cousin Mike]

HE HAS A PISTOL! Nobody is suggesting you can ever touch the trigger of a pistol prior to getting it on target.

Trigger pull on a DA/SA revolver is usually between 8 and 12 pounds. Same for a DA/SA semi auto. Both are double action pulls... What's the huge difference that makes it so impossible to unintentionally fire a DA revolver, yet so easy to discharge a DA semi-auto? If you slip and fall, are you 100% sure that your thumb is going to stay perfectly in place behind the hammer?

I'm about as likely to accidentally run someone over with my car...

That happens too.. and again, it's not exactly an incredibly rare thing, but that's slightly OT.

[Cosmoline]

The key is, if you do fall, don't squeeze the trigger. Let's look at the finding again:

In about 6 per cent of cases, enough trigger pressure was registered to have fired the pistol had it been uncocked

This tells me in the vast majority of cases, people were able to avoid putting that much pressure on the trigger. There are also more serious tactical considerations. Let me try to explain some ergonomics to you pistoleros:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/Grips.jpg

The classic 1911 has a balance point considerably futher back than the double action revolver. The ammunition is in the handle, and the index finger is easily kept along the side under the slide.

The revolver, in contrast, has its ammunition and balance point an inch or more further out than the 1911. The front end wants to drop down if the index finger is kept alongside, and as the other fingers try to compensate by squeezing harder, the index finger also curves, and the whole frame is canted to the left. If presented this way in a hurry at the target, the shooter must re-grip as he tries to get his finger into the groove. If you're in imminent peril, you can kiss your hind end goodbye.

In my experience, you are much better off getting your finger in the right place at the beginning of the presentation, NOT at the end of it. You avoid an ND by not being negligent and waiting until you're on target to fire.

[The Real Hawkeye]

I wonder how many in this discussion have gone thru professional gun handling courses?I was instructed, back in 1979/1980, by a retired deputy sheriff who was an NRA certified defensive handgun instructor. I had approximately 20 hours of instruction both on and off the firing line. I started this a few months before getting my license to possess and carry a handgun at age 19, and continued it for a couple on months thereafter. He taught me the technique of double action revolver defensive shooting that he learned as a deputy sheriff. He had no obsessions about one's trigger finger being off the trigger of an uncocked double action revolver once drawn for fighting purposes. In fact he impressed upon me the relative safety of the design in this regard. His methods were good enough for his entire career as a lawman, so I guess they're good enough for me.

[Gordon]

"I was instructed, back in 1979/1980, by a retired deputy sheriff who was an NRA certified defensive handgun instructor. I had approximately 20 hours of instruction both on and off the firing line. I started this a few months before getting my license to possess and carry a handgun at age 19, and continued it for a couple on months thereafter."

Thanks, that clears up alot of things!:)

[Glamdring]

Gordon said: I wonder how many in this discussion have gone thru professional gun handling courses? I don't remember any I have been to where a finger was allowed in a trigger guard until the gun is presented toward the danger.I will continue to keep ,even on the myriad of DA and SA wheel guns I shoot, my finger out of the trigger guard until ready to shoot (condition Red) and not feel handicapped in the least. BTW all real High speed low drag operators (the real thing) I have trained with in the last 25 years also keep thir fingers out of trigger guard unless condition red. I had a NYPD detective uncle who in the 40s and 50s kept his finger in the trigger guard, and I was trained by Chic Gaylord to do so at a very young age in the late 50s early 60s, but Thank the Holy Kahki (and Col. Cooper) I was born again into the 'Modern Technique' for almost 40 years of safe gun handling since then!

Amen Brother. Wonder how many here know how much effort the NYPD stakeout squad put into not shooting innocent people? And how despite all the gunfights they were in they never did hit an innocent.


****
If speed is the most important thing then cutting corners on safety makes sense. If your shooting at anything but paper, then speed isn't the most important thing IMO.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Thanks, that clears up alot of things!One wonders how you mean this, exactly. Based on your previous post, I must assume it was meant as a slight, despite the smiley. Why do you presume that current instruction methods in the defensive use of double action revolvers are necessarily better than those developed in the late heyday of double action revolvers as duty weapons for lawmen? If anything, the reverse of that presumption is more likely true.

[GRIZ22]

I have been a firearms instructor since 1976. As a result I have had a least 1000 hours of professional handgun, rifle, shotgun, and subgun training between LE and the military.

I don't think anyone here or Col Cooper is advocating align sights and then put your finger on the trigger. It's putting your finger on the trigger when you are ready to fire. In addition to the cases I mentioned previously I had a friend shot by someone who had his finger on the trigger while trying to put a car into park. That was with a DA auto uncocked with a 13.5 lb trigger (it was checked after the incident).

If you are under no degree of stress you can keep your finger on the trigger all day long and the gun won't discharge I'll agree. Covering a BG, running to or from a shooting incident, or chasing someone who just took a shot at you and you (as a LEO) are supposed to be trying to catch are totally different things. Putting your finger on the trigger during a draw is asking for trobule. A LE range I know of has a collection of holsters with bullet holes through them on the wall.

Trying to do anything running, climbing, walking, or just standing with your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to fire is unsafe.

[The Real Hawkeye]

So, Griz, you're a cop who is carefully entering an abandoned building you just saw an armed mugger run in to. You have a double action revolver. Is your finger lightly touching the trigger face as you carefully enter and begin to turn wide corners, or is your finger pointing straight out until the bad guy actually steps out from behind a corner, gun pointing in your direction? Be honest now.

[BullfrogKen]

Hawkeye,

Allow me to ask you a question . . . . Two armed men have made the decision, for whatever reasons, to exchange rounds at each other. Guns are coming to bear, or are already at bear on one another, but the actual shots have not yet been touched off. But they are about to . . . in units of time measured in tenths of seconds. Which act is more likely to give one of them a chance of winning that fight? Shooting or moving?

[Soap]

Nothing against anyone personally but that hammer method is not only unsafe for all the reasons mentioned, but it is a slippery slope. So on leverguns can you keep the lever just out of battery and your finger on the trigger? How about 1911s with the hammer forward? Bolt guns with the bolts retracted? Autos with the slide locked back? Pump actions with the pump slightly rearward?

And to top it all off, try keeping good weapon retention on the drawstroke with your thumb like that on a DA revolver...

[Cosmoline]

So on leverguns can you keep the lever just out of battery and your finger on the trigger? How about 1911s with the hammer forward? Bolt guns with the bolts retracted? Autos with the slide locked back? Pump actions with the pump slightly rearward?

It's only a "slippery slope" if you're stupid enough to try a John Wayne carry on your levergun! Once again, we're talking about uncocked revolvers and you're bringing up a bunch of different firearms. Why keep changing the subject?

[The Real Hawkeye]

Hawkeye,

Allow me to ask you a question . . . . Two armed men have made the decision, for whatever reasons, to exchange rounds at each other. Guns are coming to bear, or are already at bear on one another, but the actual shots have not yet been touched off. But they are about to . . . in units of time measured in tenths of seconds. Which act is more likely to give one of them a chance of winning that fight? Shooting or moving?Tough call.

[BullfrogKen]

Reason I bring it up is that those few tenths of a second that decides a who will come out ahead in a gunfight, if indeed anyone will because it is possible that they tie and both lose, have less to do with gaining the edge in the fashion you describe.


Have you actually measured the difference in time, on a timer, between having a finger on the trigger, and having it indexed along the gun?

[Soap]

It's only a "slippery slope" if you're stupid enough to try a John Wayne carry on your levergun! Once again, we're talking about uncocked revolvers and you're bringing up a bunch of different firearms. Why keep changing the subject?

How is the "John Wayne" carry on the levergun any less safe than your revolver method? Also, what about weapon retention?

[Cosmoline]

How is the "John Wayne" carry on the levergun any less safe than your revolver method? Also, what about weapon retention?

John Wayne would carry the '92 with the hammer COCKED and his finger pressing the trigger. He'd keep a gloved thumb on the hammer. That's quite a bit different than guarding the spur of an UNCOCKED revolver hammer while keeping a finger ready at a double action trigger.

What about weapon retention?

[John C]

The Real Hawkeye said:

"So, Griz, you're a cop who is carefully entering an abandoned building you just saw an armed mugger run in to. You have a double action revolver. Is your finger lightly touching the trigger face as you carefully enter and begin to turn wide corners, or is your finger pointing straight out until the bad guy actually steps out from behind a corner, gun pointing in your direction? Be honest now."

The answer, in my case, and all of the local police depts' cases, is yes.

However, no officer is going in to a building like that unless it's an active shooter situation. However, when the time comes and someone does go in, their finger will be on the side of the pistol, shotgun, AR or subgun. (Or TAZER, for that matter)

-John

[John C]

Bullfrog Ken said:

"Allow me to ask you a question . . . . Two armed men have made the decision, for whatever reasons, to exchange rounds at each other. Guns are coming to bear, or are already at bear on one another, but the actual shots have not yet been touched off. But they are about to . . . in units of time measured in tenths of seconds. Which act is more likely to give one of them a chance of winning that fight? Shooting or moving?

I attended a class by an instructor that had done research on this subject with the Fresno, California PD SWAT team. Each of the subjects had been in one or more officer involved shootings, and all of them said that if they were to relive any one of their individual shootings, EACH and EVERY time they would've opted to move versus shoot, when they had actually done the opposite in their actual shootings. Moving is perhaps the most important aspect of survival in a shooting, whether the aggressor or defender. Moving correctly amplifies your advantages and neutralizes your opponents'.

-John

[Gordon]

And to really get off the subject: shooting while moving, once mastered is pretty darn deadly! I started doing it at Starlight Academy way back when , and refined it the last 10 years under Louis Awerbuck and Scott Reitz. I still have a long way to go. And yes, Virginia, your finger is in full contact with the trigger THIS time, as you are SHOOTING the hostiles! Please no assinine quips about removing your finger as you traverse no shoot targets. We are gunfighting here, not line dancing, and there are calculated risks involved in use of deadly force!;)

[The Real Hawkeye]

What Gordon said.

[formerflyer]

I hate to be the one to pour cold water on a good flame war, but since it appears that none of you took a revolver class from the good Colonel, did it occur to anybody to read what he WROTE about the subject? From:

To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth
Copy write 1988 by Gunsite Raven Corporation
P.p. 107-108, “The Firing Stroke”
“Step Two [of six]
“Break the piece clear of the leather, upward if you use a pouch holster, forward if you use a break-front. Do not move it further than just clear. Do not depress the safety. Do not insert the trigger finger in the guard. This is most important. Failure to heed can hurt.
“(Note: At least one master marksman pops the safety in the holster. That is his method and he is welcome to it, since he will make no mistakes. He does not gain speed that way, however, as others just as fast as he do not do it. Leave the safety on until the third step.)
“With trigger-cocking (“double-action”) weapons, the trigger finger may enter the guard at Step Two. Three is safer, however. (Note: With a cross draw keep the muzzle below the supporting arm as the piece is advanced.)
“Step Three
“Advance the piece halfway from the holster to the waiting left hand. Depress the safety. Keep the index finger straight. (Except with double-action, where there is no safety latch and the finger enters the trigger guard.)
“Step Four
“Join hands, and initiate counter pressure, right hand against left. Now place the finger on the trigger. (D.A.’s commence squeeze.) Keep the muzzle depressed about 15 degrees below line of sight and maintain focus on the target.
“Step Five
"Line up. Force the left elbow away from the side. Increase counter-pressure. Shift focus from target to front sight. Take up trigger slack, if cocked. If double-action, press trigger about halfway back. (You can still check your complete stroke at this point, with practice.)”

Five pages of argument, 110 individual posts, and nobody bothered to maybe ask someone that took a revolver class from him, or look it up in his published works. The problem with quoting an expert to start a discussion is that most of us don’t bother to look for the quote that’s actually on point. Think maybe the discussion might have been more on point if someone had read the above?

[LightningJoe]

Hey. Don't confuse everything. We were almost at a breakthrough.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Five pages of argument, 110 individual posts, and nobody bothered to maybe ask someone that took a revolver class from him, or look it up in his published works. The problem with quoting an expert to start a discussion is that most of us don’t bother to look for the quote that’s actually on point. Think maybe the discussion might have been more on point if someone had read the above?Thanks, Formerflyer. I must have read that classic a half dozen times over the last ten years, and still didn't think to take a look back at what he said about the firing stroke for the purposes of this debate. You've settled the point very well. Cooper himself makes a narrow exception for rule number 3, but ONLY when it comes to the double action revolver, as I've said from the beginning.

You all can start posting your apologies now. ;)

[GRIZ22]

Real Hawkeye you said in your original post:

Don't know about a single action revolver, but on a double action revolver, it is perfectly safe to have your finger on the trigger before you are ready to fire.

formerflyer's Cooper quote is based on Cooper's description of "when he is ready to fire". It says entering the trigger guard after step 2, when the gun is clear of the leather. Cooper's attention to detail makes note to mention it's safer to enter the trigger guard after step 3 when the gun is halfway up from the holster. Don't take Cooper's description out of context.

There is nothing different in what I have advocated and what Cooper says.

John C. gave my answer to your question to me in #107. Especially the part about not entering the building. That would be Tombstone courage. Yes my finger would be on the trigger as I am ready to fire under cover.

As far as trying to outdraw someone or when you have already taken fire and your gun is in the holster the best approach is to move to cover. If you take cover first you stand a good chance of surviving. The only reason to shoot on the move is to get to cover as you have already taken fire.

Unless you are ready to fire having your finger on the trigger is inviting problems.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Griz, in my second post I clarified what I had said in my first. It is very difficult to go from an index finger straight and forward position to firing a double action revolver, making them next to useless in combat if the finger cannot be inside the trigger guard until the point when immediate discharge is desirable. That said, when not in a combat situation, no fingers should be inside the trigger guard of ANY weapon until the muzzle is pointing at something you are willing to destroy.

The exception for double action revolvers is very narrow, and only applies to the most extreme levels of condition orange [said orange here because I thought orange meant you had decided to shoot if the identified threat makes a hostile move, but have since been informed that this is actually condition red], i.e., a goblin has been identified, and you have decided to shoot him if he makes a hostile move. In this case, finger not only can be inside the trigger guard OF A DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVER, it should be inside the trigger guard, and may even be resting lightly on the trigger face. If it is outside the trigger guard pointing straight during this phase, you are taking an unnecessary risk with your life.Cooper, in the book referred to, clearly stated that there is a narrow exception to rule number 3 for double action revolvers. This is a contradiction of the opposing view expressed many times in this thread that double action revolvers go by rule number 3 in exactly the same way as auto pistols. Your side in this debate, even according to Cooper, therefore, is incorrect. Don't be a spin doctor.

[GRIZ22]

a goblin has been identified, and you have decided to shoot him if he makes a hostile move.

According to the quote from your thread "you are ready to fire". What I have been saying all along.

I'm not being a spin doctor. If it makes you feel better calling me a spin doctor feel free, I've been called much worst.

[BullfrogKen]

The Real Hawkeye said: It is very difficult to go from an index finger straight and forward position to firing a double action revolver, making them next to useless in combat if the finger cannot be inside the trigger guard until the point when immediate discharge is desirable.

If you have such difficulty getting your finger from index position to trigger, so much that you believe it makes your gun next to useless . . . I suggest the gun doesn't fit you correctly.

I'll ask again, have you actually measured the time, on a timer, between taking an indexed shot and one with your finger on the trigger? Set up a target, start from a draw, low ready, whatever position you desire.

I believe you'll find the time difference insignificant. And this is the crux of your arguement, as I've seen it presented, that advocates this technique.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Bullfrogger, the nature of a well aimed and executed shot from an uncocked double action revolver is such that it cannot easily be done in a jerking motion, as would be required if you must wait till the exact instant you wish to fire the gun before you place your finger inside the trigger guard, let alone on the trigger face, as your side has insisted is required for safety. You will likely miss your target this way. Therefore, when one is using a double action revolver, and the revolver is not cocked, it would be foolish, as has been my argument from the first page of this thread, to wait till the instant firing is necessitated by circumstances before one places one's trigger finger inside the trigger guard and in contact with the trigger face. It appears that on this point, Jeff Cooper agrees. This was the crux of this debate, that, and the relative safety of doing so due to the design of double action revolvers.

[Soap]

John Wayne would carry the '92 with the hammer COCKED and his finger pressing the trigger. He'd keep a gloved thumb on the hammer. That's quite a bit different than guarding the spur of an UNCOCKED revolver hammer while keeping a finger ready at a double action trigger.

What about weapon retention?

The way I see it, either way is unsafe, you have your finger on the trigger which can fire the weapon at any time. The other examples I provided are no different than your method: finger on the trigger but rely on some exploitation of the action to not fire the weapon.

Weapon retention...have you tried drawing like that with a blue gun and having somebody grab the gun? Anybody could snatch the revolver out of your hand easily while holding it like that.

[Imaginos]

One of the gang at Sixgunner.com posted some x-rays from a man who managed to shoot himself in the lower leg because he broker Rule 3.

http://forums.sixgunner.com/This_is_what_shooting_yourself_with_a_44_mag_will_do!/m_71258/tm.htm

I guess this pretty much closes up the Rule 3 debate. If you are not in Condition Red with a specifically identified target and IMMEDIATE need, Rule 3 applies.

[The Real Hawkeye]

I guess this pretty much closes up the Rule 3 debate.Yeah, and I guess driving your car to work is out too. I hear that, once in a while, people fall asleep at the wheel, drive into a pole and get killed that way. Back to horse and buggy, I reckon. :rolleyes:

[mikey357]

BullfrogKen makes an EXCELLENT point about the difference in time between the finger-on-the-side-of-the-frame and the finger-already-on-the-trigger when the shooter decides to fire the shot...HAS anyone MEASURED that time difference...BESIDES ME???
I regularly shoot at a "Half-Scale" Pepper-popper in the back yard with several different .22's...at about 15 feet, using a PACT "Club Timer", and starting with the gun pointed at the target, there is LESS THAN one-tenth of a second difference in my first-shot-after-the-buzzer time between starting with the finger OUTSIDE the trigger guard versus starting with the finger already ON the trigger...
FWIW, the times are closer together..and MORE CONSISTENT..with the K-22's as opposed to the MKII's...don't know why, unless it's that almost thirty-three years of "Yank 'n' Crank" on S&W DA triggers?!?!
IMHO, NONE of the "FOUR RULES" should EVER be violated...but, you pays your money and you takes your chances...just remember, if you shoot yourself in the foot--or, God Forbid, WORSE--I TOLD YOU SO!!!....mikey357

[.38 Special]

One of the gang at Sixgunner.com posted some x-rays from a man who managed to shoot himself in the lower leg because he broker Rule 3.
Right. From the link: "His car alarm went off outside at night. He was putting on his pants while holding his revolver....... and he was drunk at the time.... "

Yup. That settles it. It's 'cause he broke rule #3. :rolleyes:

[Cosmoline]

The way I see it, either way is unsafe, you have your finger on the trigger which can fire the weapon at any time. The other examples I provided are no different than your method: finger on the trigger but rely on some exploitation of the action to not fire the weapon.

They have hair triggers, which cannot be touched prior to firing. The examples with external hammers operate totally differently from the hammer of a DA revolver.

Weapon retention...have you tried drawing like that with a blue gun and having somebody grab the gun? Anybody could snatch the revolver out of your hand easily while holding it like that.

Actually, it would be a lot easier to take when my finger is off the trigger. Try to grab a revolver if the finger is on the trigger and you'll likely get shot.

[Soap]

They have hair triggers, which cannot be touched prior to firing. The examples with external hammers operate totally differently from the hammer of a DA revolver.

I'm sorry but a heavier pull is NOT a safety feature.

Actually, it would be a lot easier to take when my finger is off the trigger. Try to grab a revolver if the finger is on the trigger and you'll likely get shot.

So you're telling me you haven't tried any retention situations with it.

[The Real Hawkeye]

I'm sorry but a heavier pull is NOT a safety feature.Actually, it is. And it's not just a heavier pull. There is a distance which must be traversed before the weapon can be made to fire. It is this feature which is the reason the double action revolver has no manual safety switches. It doesn't need any, as, unless it is manually thumb-cocked, it cannot be fired without an intentional long squeeze of the trigger under spring resistance. Yes, I can imagine circumstances where it could be inadvertently pulled to its full distance, but then people are also struck by lightning once in a while. We live is such a world. Nothing is perfectly safe under all circumstances. Life is about compromises. This is a more than acceptable compromise between preparedness and safety. The ability to safely place one's finger on the trigger of an uncocked double action revolver is its main advantage over the auto pistol.

[Soap]

Actually, it is. And it's not just a heavier pull. There is a distance which must be traversed before the weapon can be made to fire. It is this feature which is the reason the double action revolver has no manual safety switches. It doesn't need any, as, unless it is manually thumb-cocked, it cannot be fired without an intentional long squeeze of the trigger under spring resistance. Yes, I can imagine circumstances where it could be inadvertently pulled to its full distance, but then people are also struck by lightning once in a while. We live is such a world. Nothing is perfectly safe under all circumstances. Life is about compromises. This is a more than acceptable compromise between preparedness and safety. The ability to safely place one's finger on the trigger of an uncocked double action revolver is its main advantage over the auto pistol.

# of people who have had an ND with a DA revolver: many
# of people who have had an ND with their finger off the trigger: zero. Having your finger off the trigger is "perfectly safe under all circumstances". So unless something else catches and pulls the trigger, you have zero chance of an ND.

[s&w 24]

after thinking a bit on this one the practice of puting your finger on the trigger before your on target is a bad Idea. The practice went out in the 50's for a good reason you can screw up and put a round thru your leg! Back when Col. Cooper was forming what is now the modern method there were alot of cops still using revolvers and if the Col. saw fit he would have included a bit on "staging" a DA trigger. With proper management of a DA trigger you don't need to do anything but squeeze the trigger in an even manner no tricks or gimmicks.

Additionaly it navy s.e.a.l's de-cock and remove there fingers from the trigger before moving from point to point with there sig's then I think I'll do the same OR keep the finger off my DA revo if I'm doing the same.

[formerflyer]

s&w 24
"Back when Col. Cooper was forming what is now the modern method there were alot of cops still using revolvers and if the Col. saw fit he would have included a bit on "staging" a DA trigger."

He did. See post 111 of this thread, especially the quotes about step 4 and step 5. If that's not staging a trigger, I'll eat my hat. Not saying whether it is the best or safest way to run a revolver, but you can't say that the Colonel didn't recommend it.

[s&w 24]

a fellow THR member pointed out to me that the Col. used to put his finger on the trigger before being on target but that was before He knew better as writen by the good Col's daughter in his biography.

The big big problem you can run ito is if your used to having your finger on the trigger as part of the draw when you are not on target comes when you reholster. If you like bullets in your boots keep it up but as for me I'll keep my finger off the trigger untill on target.

[The Real Hawkeye]

The big big problem you can run ito is if your used to having your finger on the trigger as part of the draw when you are not on target comes when you reholster. If you like bullets in your boots keep it up but as for me I'll keep my finger off the trigger untill on target.In a quick draw drill, I happen to agree with you. I personally don't train starting with my finger on the trigger while in the holster. Once I have cleared my holster, and the weapon is facing halfway to horizontal, my finger goes in the trigger guard and in contact with the trigger face, so that by the time I am on target, my finger is already there and beginning to squeeze while I put the front sight on COM. Others follow the Jordan method, and if that's what they train for, and they put their thumb on the hammer, I have no criticism of it. I certainly am in no position to argue with the likes of Bill Jordan.

Here's an example of what I am MOSTLY referring to: You are in an office building. You hear gun shots and people screaming and running in your direction. Your office has no back door, and in comes a man in fatigues holding a pump shotgun, pistol strapped on his belt with five mags in pouches and a bandolier of shotgun shells over his chest, blasting secretaries as they flee, but he doesn't see you. Your double action revolver is ALREADY DRAWN, as it came out when the shooting and screaming started. You are behind cover, but peering at the lunatic around the edge of the doorway, your office lights are off, as you flipped them when you heard the shooting. Soon as he gets within 20 feet or so, you plan to pop him. No cocking, as that would give your position away. Is your finger out of the trigger guard RIGHT NOW, or is it lightly touching the trigger face? Mine will be lightly touching the trigger face, in preparation to best use my weapon to save my life, thank you very much. I will not wait till the last second to haphazardly thrust my trigger finger into the guard as I turn to take aim and fire. Rule number three be damned.

Now, if my weapon were a Browning High Power or a Government Model, manual safety would be engaged, trigger finger would be out of the trigger guard parallel to the barrel, and thumb would be resting on the top of the manual safety, even at this point, and this would not change until I brought it up to actually take aim and shoot. Different story because different weapon. You have to know your weapon, and which rules apply at which times and which do not. It would be totally unsafe to take the safety off and place my trigger finger on the trigger face of my High Power or Government model until I am actually going for the shot. This is not the case with the double action revolver.

[Magnumite]

Alot about the da trigger being too long to inadvertantly fire the pistol. I know there are competitive shooters posting in this thread. How many of you actually remember pulling the trigger everytime in a fast pin string or plate match? I don't always, I go on autopilot, only stopping by range and R.O. stimulous.

I am not talking about awareness here. That is a different issue. Any of us, focused on a threat, or responding to a seemingly life threatening gesture, or startle response, or even stumbling from our reactive movements, can pull that DA trigger without batting an eye. Finger on the frame gives that time to prevent an ND.

I'll side with the group who say go with finger off the trigger until the gun is aligned on a must shoot senario. There was the early post about assessing the level of the threat...there is something to said for that also.

Just my .02

[BullfrogKen]

Gordon said: I wonder how many in this discussion have gone thru professional gun handling courses?

I am curious about this as well. . .

The Real Hawkeye said: Now, if my weapon were a Browning High Power or a Government Model, manual safety would be engaged, trigger finger would be out of the trigger guard parallel to the barrel, and thumb would be resting on the top of the manual safety, even at this point, and this would not change until I brought it up to actually take aim and shoot. Different story because different weapon.

And why? Why is it different than your justification to break Rule #3? Lord, I can squeeze the trigger of a handgun with a manual safety engaged until the cows come home and it won't go off.

I've seen you defend this for 2 reasons - one is the time factor involved, which if you actually measured is no negligible as to be nothing. The other being you can't handle a revolver well without doing this. You wouldn't be the first who used a gun that doesn't fit them correctly. I can't support your position for either of those reasons.


The Real Hawkeye said: I will not wait till the last second to haphazardly thrust my trigger finger into the guard as I turn to take aim and fire. Rule number three be damned.

OK. Fine. You do whatever you want. Why do you feel so compelled to argue this point to convince us its ok, or have us agree you can safely pull it off?

[The Real Hawkeye]

Ken, you've mischaracterized my position. I will leave the record to speak for itself about what I've said. People don't need to learn my position through the filter of Bullfrogken.

[.38 Special]

Why does this thread still exist? Seems like the fellow who posted Cooper's "rule #3 exception" with DA revolvers would have ended the bulk of discussion.

Look, I play with the Jordan method, and I think it's pretty obviously dangerous. I only do it with wax bullets because the risk of shooting yourself is apparent.

But is anyone really advocating that sort of thing? Seems to me the argument is pretty much about "Rule #3 absolutism" where some folks seem to believe you can't, under any circumstance, touch the face of the trigger until the sights are aligned on target. Now that Jerry Miculek, Rob Leatham, and Jeff Cooper have thoughtfully provided evidence against this idea, it's kind of hard to understand why people are still stumping for it.

[The Real Hawkeye]

I can squeeze the trigger of a handgun with a manual safety engaged until the cows come home and it won't go off.This deserves a comment. Under stress, it is pretty easy to accidentally apply enough downward pressure to the thumb safety to disengage it. If your thumb is riding atop the manual safety and your trigger finger is on the hair trigger of an auto pistol when this happens, the weapon will discharge. This is why one keeps one's finger off the trigger face of such a weapon (indeed any cocked, or partially cocked weapon such as a Glock), even when the safety is engaged. You should not place your trigger finger on the trigger face of a loaded and cocked (or even partially cocked) semi-auto pistol unless you are pointing the gun in the direction you wish to fire it at the time. Additionally, never trust a safety switch on a gun. They have been known to fail. It is a different animal entirely from the uncocked double action revolver. They should not be compared, only contrasted, in relation to rule number three. It's being uncocked is the key difference.

[GRIZ22]

Quote:

But is anyone really advocating that sort of thing? Seems to me the argument is pretty much about "Rule #3 absolutism" where some folks seem to believe you can't, under any circumstance, touch the face of the trigger until the sights are aligned on target.

38 special, no one is advocating keeping your finger off the trigger until you sights are aligned. They are saying keeping your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. There is a distinct difference. See my post #114. Another example would be point shooting where you are not using the sights.

You won't see any pro shooter with their finger on the trigger of anything until they are ready to fire.

Training to keep you finger on the trigger with DA revolvers and off the trigger on semi-autos is contradictory to muscle memory training. If you get the two methods confused in stressful situations it can be disasterous. Train one way with finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire and it will work for any firearm.

Most people don't have Dirty Harry's composure in stressful situations. Besides Harry knows what's coming up in the script.

[.38 Special]

38 special, no one is advocating keeping your finger off the trigger until you sights are aligned.
Actually, there are a number of people here who are saying exactly that. The rule is "KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET". I suppose we could dicker over my use of the word "aligned"...

You won't see any pro shooter with their finger on the trigger of anything until they are ready to fire.
I have several videotapes in my library that disprove that, and I also have a copy of Jerry Miculek's intructional video where he recomends "prepping" -- ie. applying pressure too -- the trigger as the gun is coming up from the holster.

Which is consistent with the passage recently reprinted here wherein Mr. Cooper himself "allows" this technique. Which again leaves me wondering why this thread is still around. :cool:

[carpettbaggerr]

You should not place your trigger finger on the trigger face of a loaded and cocked (or even partially cocked) semi-auto pistol unless you are pointing the gun in the direction you wish to fire it at the time.

Why not? The Col. was speaking of double-action weapons, not just revolvers.

“With trigger-cocking (“double-action”) weapons, the trigger finger may enter the guard at Step Two. Three is safer, however. (Note: With a cross draw keep the muzzle below the supporting arm as the piece is advanced.)


Cooper was a precise writer, and if meant to exclude the crunchenticker he would have done so.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Not if they are cocked, or even partially cocked.

[BullfrogKen]

The Real Hawkeye said:
I can squeeze the trigger of a handgun with a manual safety engaged until the cows come home and it won't go off. This deserves a comment. Under stress, it is pretty easy to accidentally apply enough downward pressure to the thumb safety to disengage it.

Ahhh . . . I see . . . So, there's NO chance stress can cause someone to pull a D.A. revolver trigger to the rear . . . But, there IS the chance stress can cause one to both thumb off a safety and pull the trigger on a autoloader, and its likely enough that violating Rule #3 on an autoloader is unsafe. Physical and mental training won't prevent it on an autoloader, but it will on a revolver. We can't trust a safety switch . . . but we can trust the longer, heavy pull of a trigger without a safety.

You were better off advocating your technique back when you were relying on the words of the Apostle Jeff to help support it. This one's so thin its anorexic.


Training and techniques actually DO evolve over time. Has anyone here actually been to Gunsite to see what they teach for a revolver lately? Miculek is involved in handgun sports and competition. I'd have to say I regard his comments as limited to such an arena.

Context . . . its all about context.


I'll point you back to my comments when I first entered this thread, Hawkeye:OK. Cooper and Jordon are not the Apostle Jeff and Saint Bill. . . .
I don't think its wise to think we can carelessly ignore a rule because our weapons system is OK with it, or since it has a larger margin of error so it doesn't apply.


All this said, I do think there are times when we will consciously and deliberately violate those rules because its appropriate or necessary. Are we masters of the rules, or mastered by them.

However, I do not agree with the rationale that a revolvers longer trigger pull is one of those circumstances. If you want to, go ahead. I don't think you'll have much success convincing folks. Training evolves. Jordan may have advocated it. I'm sure there are still a few out there that do.

I don't think this rule has anything to do with lawyers, but safety, and not shooting people and things we didn't intend.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Ahhh . . . I see . . . So, there's NO chance stress can cause someone to pull a D.A. revolver trigger to the rear . . . But, there IS the chance stress can cause one to both thumb off a safety and pull the trigger on a autoloader?Both the manual safety and the trigger on a cocked auto pistol are very light touches. On the thumb safety, once you apply the very little force necessary, the detent is disengaged, and resistance drops to zero. The trigger is similar. Not comparable to the long, relatively heavy straight through, trigger stroke of an uncocked double action revolver. Not even close. It's a different animal, with different rules for safe handling in combat. A comparison can only be drawn when the double action revolver is first thumb cocked. Then all the same rules apply as for a cocked auto pistol, shotgun or rifle. To keep it all straight in your head, think cocked = trigger finger off trigger till time to fire. Simple rule.

[Andrew S]

Cosmoline;

I've read many of your posts over the past couple of years, and I quite respect your views and opinions. I appreciate your bringing up this topic. I'm not sure I appreciate the subtle flames from others. You've brought up an interesting point that merits discussion.

The real reason to always follow rule 3 is sympathetic muscle reactions. Sympathetic muscle reaction is when a muscle on one part of your body instinctively reacts along with another muscle. For example, close one eye and then move your other, open eye from side to side. You can't make your one, closed eye stay still. A sympathetic reaction.

There are other sympathetic reactions, and in the hand they occur instinctively. One that's most often seen is when falling.

So, at the range this is probably no big deal. But in a home defense or hunting situation, you don't want to trip when your gun's drawn, since you may have a sympathetic response to clench your hand to avoid dropping your expensive revolver. Hopefully your thumb catches the hammer. In a defensive situation, the last thing you want to do is put a round through the wall of your house, and into your neighbor's. While hunting, a round in your leg or your buddy would ruin the trip.

I really enjoyed VA27's post about the rules and trying to break them. I'll probably unashamedly use that at one time or another.

-John


Bingo. There is much more to worry about than your grip under normal circumstances. There is the unpredictable, the unintentional, and the accidental as well.

You may trip or be pushed to the ground. During your fall your might clench up or you might land in a way that causes you to pull the trigger.

There are also rogue reflexes to worry about. We all know how flinching can affect our accuracy and we all work on being used to loud noises. However, under pressure in the dead of night when your heart is racing is not a situation most of us are used to holding a firearm. If you finger is on the trigger when an unexpected loud noise is made there is a chance you could jump and end up squeezing the trigger.

We should all be past the "that can't happen to me" way of thinking. I do not see how we can argue about this.


If that isn't enough to consider there is always your control of the firearm to consider. I was trained to always pull the hammer back with my non-shooting hand to maintain a strong grip on my firearm. A quick demonstration on how easy it is to take the gun out of my hand when using the thump of my shooting hand on the hammer was enough to convince me. Of course, this assumes perfect conditions for yourself. If your non-shooting hand is injured or there is little risk of a take away and more risk somewhere else the shooting hand might be your best choice. However, to train to keep that loose grip all of the time is just silly to me.