What is the range of a 45/70?


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phantomak47
December 13, 2006, 12:27 PM
What is the maxium range of the 45/70 shot out of a typical Marlin lever action? Not trying shoot steel plates at 500 yards maxium, rather you basic hunting range.


I there is something about this round/gun that I love and I would like to learn more about it. thanks

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Art Eatman
December 13, 2006, 12:44 PM
The effective range is quite long. The problem for the shooter is that the trajectory is much like that of a basketball, compared to the flatter-shooting stuff. So, knowing the trajectory and having the abilty to judge the distance is important.

For such as deer or elk, the basic deal is, if you can hit it, you can punch a hole through it. But, the issue then is the precision of shot placement in order to make an ethical kill.

Art

Jackal
December 13, 2006, 12:56 PM
With iron sights, I'd say 100yd. With scope, I'd say 250yds. The only trouble you will have is learning the proper hold-over for different ranges.

Brian Williams
December 13, 2006, 01:01 PM
Original testing was done over 2000 yards...with some fairly accurate shooting.

one-shot-one
December 13, 2006, 01:12 PM
Short-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300
Remington® Express® 300 JHP zero -1.3 -6.6 -16.5 -32.0 -54.1
Remington® Express® 405 SP zero -4.0 -14.5 -32.0 -57.5 -90.6


Long-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 300 JHP zero -4.6 -13.8 -28.6 -50.1 -115.7 -219.1
Remington® Express® 405 SP zero -8.5 -24.0 -47.4 -78.6 -169.4 -301.3

so if you site in 6" high at 100 yards you'll be 22.6" low at 250 with the 300jhp.?

stolivar
December 13, 2006, 09:59 PM
With reloads you can shoot out to around 200 yards with only -4 inches. That is with a 3 inch at 100 yards.



steve

Gewehr98
December 14, 2006, 03:33 PM
The round has plenty of energy to take large game way out there, witness what the Sharps rifles did to the buffalo herd in the late 19th century. My own Sharps, using a relatively weak (by modern standards) 530gr blackpowder loading, delivers over 1000 foot-pounds of energy at 400 yards. Even the Sandy Hook tests of 1879 showed the BP .45-70-500 round capable of penetrating 3 one-inch oak boards and burying itself into the sand to a depth of 8 inches at 3,500 yards distance.

In all fairness, I have a 32" barrel and a 3" rear vernier sight, to get best performance and accuracy out of that big heavy bullet. The typical Marlin or Winchester levergun won't go to that extreme, in order to maintain a compact, handy profile.

However, those who say the .45-70 is a close-range cartridge just aren't comfortable learning the arched trajectory of the round, and usually hunt using scopes or buckhorn sights with minimal elevation adjustment. We've gotten lazy as hunters, and like the convenience of our .308, .30-06 and .270 rounds, where we can rely on 200-300 yard point blank ranges without having to adjust our sights or even accurately estimate the range to the venison. Note the difference in trajectories, as plotted by a contributor to Wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/.45-70vs.308.png/800px-.45-70vs.308.png

(.45-70-405, BC .21, MV 1350 f/s, 320' elevation plotted against 7.62x51mm 168gr BTHP, BC .484, MV 2500 f/s, elevation 78' Both bullets cross zero elevation about 1580 yards out)

So, for the average Marlin/Winchester levergun in .45-70, you've got more bullet energy than you do sights for the gun, the latter being the limiting factor on how far a shot one should take while hunting. ;)

Harve Curry
December 14, 2006, 07:50 PM
My limit is 200 yards with the 45-70 and iron sights on deer size game.

Quigley
December 21, 2007, 06:59 PM
Art nailed it the 45/70 is like shooting a basketball. First off the versatility of the round opens it to many shooting types. Hunting the new Barnes 250 grainTriple X and other brands of HP 300-350 grain bullets make for a flat shooting devistating round at 200 yards or less. Those choosing to suffer the recoil of the 500 grain bullet pushed to 1500 fps can expect the
"Basketball Arc"
250 yard zero
25 Yards +4.9" 50 yards +10.3" 100 yards +17.3" 150 yards +18.6" 200 yards +13.2" 250 yards -0- 300 yards -21.9"
The down range energy stays above 1000 ftlbs out to 300 yards starting at 2259 ftlbs @ 25 yards dropping to 1008 ft lbs @ 300 remaining very effective on deer sized game.

ArmedBear
December 21, 2007, 09:58 PM
Energy is horse****.

That big old bullet doesn't need ft-lb's like a little modern bullet. It just doesn't. A large diameter round or flat nose bullet doesn't burn up energy expanding when it hits the target, and the heavy bullet doesn't slow down as much inside the target.

Now I don't think a lever gun can shoot the 520 grain bullets I've used in a Sharps. But at 1000 fps or so, the 520 will go right through a buffalo, so you can't tell the entry from the exit hole when you're butchering it, turn the lungs to mush, and keep on going. That's a buffalo. A 405 should work fine on deer.:p Hell, I saw it the 405 work just fine on buffalo, not a deer, loaded with GOEX, not some hot modern load.

You might need 1000 ft-lb to drop a deer with a little .243, but not with a .458" 405 grain bullet. I think that the lower velocity actually has a more devastating effect. How much energy does a hunting arrow have? From what I've seen, a big .45-70 round almost works more like an arrow than a modern bullet. It kinda looks like an arrow, too.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(uprajdeisddabh45b4la4b55))/imgPart/lyman-457-132_1.jpg

What is difficult to master for a modern shooter who plinks with a .223 is the trajectory. If you can hit the deer, whatever the range, you can kill it. That's the tough part, as the trajectory tables above demonstrate. I've also shot a jackrabbit with a black powder .45-70 Sharps at about 80 yards. Took a few rounds. I had the windage dead on, but I kept shooting over it, then under it, until I finally got the elevation right. That's how tough that trajectory can be, even relatively close in. When I finally connected, it went all the way through, surprisingly little damage to the rabbit, not at all like a modern varmint round. It blew the rabbit back about 8 feet, though.

Note that the old buffalo guns have marked ladder sights, which compensate for the trajectory much like an A2 sight on an AR, but they're a few inches tall, not a few 16ths tall like an A2 sight.:) Also, the good shooters in the 1800s knew how to estimate range very precisely from the width of the front sight vs. the size of the animal, and they knew the trajectory of that bullet like we know our phone numbers today.

Jim K
December 21, 2007, 10:32 PM
On another site, a comment was made that in firing a .45-70 at 500 yards, you would "have to aim at the moon."

I replied that it would be a pretty low moon, since the firing tables show a mere 1 degree 17 minutes elevation for a range of 500 yards with the rifle and a 500 grain bullet. Even at 1000 yards, the elevation is only 2 degrees 58 minutes. (Remember, one degree is one of those little divisions on that protractor you had in grade school.)

Jim

ArmedBear
December 21, 2007, 10:38 PM
http://www.davidepedersoli.com/img/ArmsPreview/S.789.jpg

This sight tops out at 800 or 1000 yards.

SDC
December 21, 2007, 10:54 PM
At the battle of Adobe Walls (1874), a buffalo hunter named Billy Dixon is supposed to have shot a Comanche warrior out of the saddle at a range of at least 1000 yards, but using a .50-70 Sharps rifle. If you know what you're doing, and are familiar with the trajectory, you can make a shot at well past "normal" hunting ranges.

rcmodel
December 22, 2007, 04:44 PM
The difference with the old-time Buffalo hunters and us today is, they had the luxury of looking at Buffalo all day long, day after day, the year around, at all different ranges.
And they shot a lot, day after day, after day!

Pretty soon, they could take a gander, set the sight, and start dropping them.

If they misjudged the range and missed the first shot, so what?
They could make the necessary adjustments and shoot the next one in the herd.

That is a lot different then your one shot, once a year, at a big buck you will never see again if you miss.

So, you need to set a realistic limit with your rifle and choice of sights.
If that choice involves long range with a 45-70 & scope, you also need a range-finder, and a drop-table taped to your stock.

And a lot of pre-season long range practice!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

5ptdeerhunter
December 22, 2007, 04:52 PM
I have my NEF 45-70 sited in with 2" high at 100 yards. And just for the heck of it I fired it from 180 yards on a picnic table using an ammo can for a rest. And with four shots my group was around 1.5" to 2". I didn't measure just estimated, but they were between three and four inches low. But according to the box of Hornady Leverevolution the bullet will drop around three feet at 300 yards if it is sited in at 100.

plumberroy
December 23, 2007, 12:38 AM
I Have A n.e.f. handi rifle cheap 3x9 scope sighted 2"@100 yards dead on at 130-140yards I put the cross hair at the top af a spikes back at 225 yards was eating backstrap that night I'll shoot 250 at a still animal with a make shift rest
Roy
p.s. those are not factory loads

ArmedBear
December 23, 2007, 11:26 PM
If they misjudged the range and missed the first shot, so what?
They could make the necessary adjustments and shoot the next one in the herd.

This is not true. They weren't hunting for sport or their own food, and they didn't have day jobs.

The price of the ammo was such that their profits depended on one-shot kills. Ammo was very expensive, especially where they were.

They made amazing shots sometimes, and a second shot was typically at a second buffalo.

Nematocyst
December 23, 2007, 11:43 PM
Did somebody say, ".45-70"?

1000 yds? 2000 yds?

Does NASA know about this?

Eric F
December 24, 2007, 12:06 AM
ok Every one lets look at the O.P.What is the maxium range of the 45/70 shot out of a typical Marlin lever action? Not trying shoot steel plates at 500 yards maxium, rather you basic hunting range.

45-70 with smokeless or bp can go 1000 yards with a 405 gr lead no arguement.
But that is from a 30 to 34 inch barrel not a LEVER GUN!:banghead:

I would guess max effective range to be with some modern ammunition in a modern levergun to be roughly 300 yards. Past that accuracy most likely wont be good and neither will knockdown with light bullets.

ArmedBear
December 24, 2007, 12:34 AM
with light bullets.

What's the lightest bullet you can get? 325 grains?

With modern powder, you may well get more velocity from a Guide Gun than BP through a 32" barrel. Barrel length doesn't magically make the range go from 300 to 1000 yards.

I would guess max effective range to be with some modern ammunition in a modern levergun to be roughly 300 yards.

Based on what?

Nematocyst
December 24, 2007, 12:53 AM
45-70 with smokeless or bp can go 1000 yards with a 405 gr lead no arguement.
But that is from a 30 to 34 inch barrel not a LEVER GUN!And who suggested anything different?

eliphalet
December 24, 2007, 12:59 AM
Besides sights that can be changed, what can possible be much of a difference in BP in a 32" barreled gun and a modern lever using modern powder? A few FPS? Which makes for a very tiny trajectory adjustmant and that would be all, terminal effectiveness would be basically equal at all ranges.

Eric F
December 24, 2007, 08:41 AM
Based on what?
ability to hit a target. The heavy bullets seem to open up alot after 200 yards(so has been my experience) the lighter bullets hold a good group up to300 but......I have it a deer at 350 with a light bullet IIRC a 350 gr deer did not go down no blood some fur in the snow I saw the hit just rear of the shoulder tracked her for 200 or so yards lost the trail but never saw blood I beleive she did not die from that bullet she was running really well in deep snow, until she got to the woods where the snow was not so deep.
terminal effectiveness would be basically equal at all ranges
I agree with that but its the accuracy that counts also. If you cant hit anything its not very effective.
And who suggested anything different?
I thought you did????

Nematocyst
December 24, 2007, 05:41 PM
And who suggested anything different?
I thought you did????No, sir.

You'll notice that all of my lines in post 18 are questions, and no where in my post (outside of sig line) do I mention "lever".

Yes, I agree, the OP asked specifically about range of .45-70 in lever guns.

However, as thread drift is wont to do, several posters subsequent to that discussed the ballistic characteristics of the caliber in general, not necessarily focusing on lever guns, but rifles with longer barrels.

I "commented" (as question) on the "1000" and "2000" yd figures because others had mentioned them and I found those potential long ranges for .45-70 interesting, even a little surprising.

ArmedBear
December 24, 2007, 06:23 PM
BTW this current-production Marlin has a 26" barrel.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Images/photo_1895_Cow.jpg

My Marlins are very accurate lever guns. I don't have the gun in question, though, so I can't compare it with the falling block Sharps.

WRT groups opening up at decent ranges, that's a function of the load, how it fits the gun, etc. The long-range target guys get groups that are amazing. A hunting partner's brother does it (and wins titles). He spends 8 hours to load 40 rounds. But the groups don't open up at 200 yards. Or 1000.

Just like varmint loads, what you get out of your .45-70 depends what you put into your .45-70. It's just not accurate to suggest that the round itself has these limitations.

Nematocyst
December 24, 2007, 07:23 PM
BTW this current-production Marlin has a 26" barrel.Wow.

That's just an impressive looking rifle.

I have missed it on the Marlin pages even though I visit there often.

What model is that?

{Added by edit: 1895 Cowboy (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/Cowboy/1895Cowboy.aspx).
I must've seen it before,
but didn't pay attention 'til now.

I'll bet this 1895XLR (.45/70, 24") (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/xlr/1895XLR.aspx) is no slouch, either ... :rolleyes:

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/images/zoom_1895xlr.jpg

jcjacobvt
December 24, 2007, 07:24 PM
I have what for me was a great find and super shooter. The Browning copy of Winchester 1885 high wall in .45-70. Installing buckhorn sights and shooting smokeless powder loaded to BP speeds of 1250 fps using 405 grain hard cast lead. I have found the the bottom "V" dead on at 100 yards, the center post centered in the "eye" gives me 200 yards and the top "V" gives me 300 yards. Open sights, clean and simple. This Browning will never see copper bullets again. I can shoot all day long with what I consider to be a meduim load and hit with very tight groups.

The buckhorn type looks like a standard rear sight with a small "V" notch and large ears or wings sweeping up from each side of the rear sight, which nearly meet directly over the center of the sight. The effect is something like the upper half of a ghost ring grafted onto a standard open rear sight mounted on the barrel, and cut away at the 12 o'clock position.


Cut and paste info found at http://www.chuckhawks.com/45-70Govt.htm

The .45-70 Government

By Chuck Hawks



The traditional .45-70 factory load is a 405 grain bullet (BC .214, SD .272) at a MV of 1330 fps, and a ME of 1590 ft. lbs. This is a very moderate load that kills well because of the penetration of its big, heavy bullet. It has been used on all North American game, but today should be restricted to use at close range.

In an attempt to improve the low pressure .45-70 load, the factories have been loading a 300 grain JHP bullet (BC .171, SD .204) at around 1,810 fps. At that velocity, according to Remington figures, the ME is 2182 ft. lbs.

The trajectory of this load allows a scoped rifle to be sighted as follows: +3" at 82 yards, +2.7" at 100 yards, -3" at 162 yards, and -10.2" at 200 yards. This makes the 45-70 about a 162 yard rifle for use on deer size game.

Pertinent information about the .45-70 includes that it accepts standard .458" diameter bullets, has a COL of 2.55", a maximum case length of 2.105", and a SAAMI MAP of 28,000 cup.

Reloaders with modern single shot rifles can safely exceed the official COL as long as the bullet is not jammed into the rifling when the cartridge is chambered. The bullets in reloads to be used in magazine fed rifles are usually roll crimped in place, but loads intended for single shot rifles need not be crimped.

Handloaders with modern Marlin lever action rifles have pioneered the use of high pressure (+P) .45-70 loads, as the modern Marlin 1895 action is much stronger than the Trapdoor Springfield action or reproductions there of. Lever action rifles are limited to bullets weighing about 400 grains, as heavier (and thus longer) bullets will not feed through their actions.

The owners of modern single shot rifles, such as the Ruger No. 1 and Browning 1885 High Wall, can safely take the pressure limit even higher, and can use 500 grain bullets. The result is loads that tread on the heels of some African safari cartridges.

The handloader will normally load bullets of 300, 350, 400 and 500 grains, although other bullet weights in the same general ballpark are available. I have had some experience reloading the .45-70 with all of the above bullets, and I have found that IMR 3031, a traditional powder choice for the cartridge, gives excellent performance with all bullet weights.

According to the sixth edition of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 40.9 grains of IMR 3031 powder can drive a Hornady 300 grain JHP bullet to a MV of 1300 fps, and 52.0 grains of IMR 3031 can drive the same bullet to a MV of 1800 fps. This essentially duplicates the factory loads, and does not exceed the SAAMI specified MAP. These and the Hornady loads to follow used Winchester brass and Federal 210 primers.

The second level of loads are for modern Marlin 1895 lever action rifles. In these loads pressures can run up to 40,000 cup. These reloads can drive a Hornady 350 grain bullet to a MV of 1400 fps with 45.2 grains of IMR 3031 powder, and a MV of 1900 fps in front of 56.1 grains of IMR 3031. These velocities were taken in the 22" barrel of a Marlin 1895 rifle. According to the Hornady Handbook, Sixth Edition, these loads are adequate for ". . . any North American game at moderate range."

The final selection of .45-70 reloads are for strong bolt action or single shot rifles that can take pressures running up to 50,000 cup. In such rifles 55.4 grains of IMR 3031 can give the Hornady 350 grain bullets a MV of 2000 fps, and 59.6 grains a MV of 2200 fps. These loads were chronographed in the 22" barrel of a Ruger No.1 rifle.

For the utmost in penetration on very large animals, the 500 grain Hornady RN or FMJ-RN bullets on top of 44.1 grains of IMR 3031 results in a MV of 1500 fps, and a maximum load of 53.1 grains of IMR 3031 can drive these 500 grain bullets to a MV of 1800 fps. Again, these high pressure loads were tested from the 22" barrel of a Ruger No. 1 rifle.

I can tell you from experience that these heavy loads kick like the devil, but they make the .45-70 a serious "stopping" caliber.

Note: A full length article about the .45-70 Government can be found on the Rifle Cartridge Page.

Mac45
December 24, 2007, 07:43 PM
If you're interested in Leverguns, check out
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/
Good guys and a wealth of information.

S&WKING
December 26, 2007, 02:04 AM
one of my grandpas old neighbor was elk hunting and he was guided with a game warden he had around 250,000$ collection of guns in his basement and he decided to take his 45-70 he shot a bull elk around 75 yards and it kept going and killed a cow about 100 yards behind the bull and remember he was with a game warden and got a big fine. the funny thing was they took the time to take the shot and didnt ever think that that would have happened.
Hornadys leverevolution say they are good to atleaste 200 yards and i have yet to shoot them at the range but i wouldnt doubt it if i could hit the 300 yrd gong

Sunray
December 26, 2007, 04:03 AM
"...Original testing was done over 2000 yards..." Not out of a lever action it wasn't. Out of a Trap Door Springfield rifle, sure.
Remington factory 405 grain, jacketed, ammo, zeroed at 100 yards, drops 8.5" at 150, 24" at 200 yards. 78.6" at 300. For that ammo(and it's loaded down because of all the Trapdoor Springfields out there), the max is 150 with no hold over on a deer. Hand loaded ammo, for a lever action, might get you another 50.

Nematocyst
December 26, 2007, 07:04 AM
"...Original testing was done over 2000 yards..."
Not out of a lever action it wasn't. Out of a Trap Door Springfield rifle, sure.OK.

We've agreed on that point twice.

Good we've got that settled.

Anything else we haven't addressed yet?

MASTEROFMALICE
December 26, 2007, 08:16 AM
Anything else we haven't addressed yet?

Sure is.

No one mentioned Hornady's LeveRevolution ammunition, which extends the useful range of the .45/70.


https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=e528aef6555a986387e7755f68f52f9e&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=e2efc3a895f8f6004aa5509977a8de6e

Their ballistics quote a 325gr bullet still moving 1225fps and still keeping ofer 1000 ft/lbs at 300 yards. Your drop is in excess of two feet but that's bearable.

BAT1
December 27, 2007, 12:10 PM
My friend just took a 165 lb whitetail last month with his Marlin with a 300 gr hand load at 85 yds. It left two large holes while liquefying the lungs. Deer just dropped. Went through both rib bones, entering and upon exit. Still headed south so watch out. With a scope your easy out to 300. Nice guide gun.

H&Hhunter
December 27, 2007, 01:00 PM
My idea of really cool hunting set up on a .45-70 would be in a Ruger #1S firing 400 gr spitzer like a Barnes TSX @ about 1900 or 2000 FPS with a low power scope. That should be a realistic 350 or 400 yard elk rifle.

I've got an 1895 cowboy and even with the most hostile loads it is a maxed out 200 yard rifle under field conditions. This due in large to the round or flat nosed bullets that must be used in a lever gun.

Sure I could start lobbing rounds at 400 yards and probably get a hit but I am talking about first round on fur shooting.

I often wonder about these miraculous claims of 1000+ yard plus hits on bison back in the 1800's. My guess is that if you launch enough bullets into a herd of bison even at 1 mile you are bound to eventually get a fatal hit.

A couple of things make me a bit leary of these buffalo hunting claims of western yore.

One, they did not have effective accurate means to measure range. By definition this makes accurate long range shooting impossible.

Two even with the most aerodynamic of bullets the energy that any of the popular buffalo cartridges of the day were able to carry at range was minuscule. Making the average hit much more likely a wounding shot than a kill. I would venture to guess that there were a whole bunch of gut and leg shot buff that died days later from their wounds.

My guess is that the average market shooting on buff went something like this: once the buff were spotted the shooting would begin sometimes at extremely long range for no other reason than they wanted to shoot at long range.

I would then venture to guess that the party open up with ranging shots until they were able to "walk" a round into range. Eventually they'd start scoring hits into the herd. Some would be killing shots some would just be wounders but hey who cares, there were plenty more buff where those came from.

I'd be impressed if A guy could accurately estimate the range and the wind then pull off a one shot killing hit with iron sights at anything over 400 yards. At 1000 yards it would be a miracle and at anything over that it's just plain simple dumb luck.

I just don't buy into this super long range shooting lore of the old west.

Brandon
December 27, 2007, 05:50 PM
http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/soi/mct/class%20media/CS0105M.ppt#1

good stuff on range estimation.

I used to shoot 45/70 a lot with the marlin cowboy octagonal long barrel.

Got tired of recoil and now do 30/30 mostly.

ArmedBear
December 28, 2007, 08:07 PM
My guess is that the average market shooting on buff went something like this: once the buff were spotted the shooting would begin sometimes at extremely long range for no other reason than they wanted to shoot at long range.

I would then venture to guess that the party open up with ranging shots until they were able to "walk" a round into range. Eventually they'd start scoring hits into the herd. Some would be killing shots some would just be wounders but hey who cares, there were plenty more buff where those came from.


You'd be wrong. Ammo was very expensive. It was worth a lot to be able to shoot accurately and estimate range. It's also possible to estimate range on buffalo with the width of the front sight, which is what they did.

That doesn't mean that 1000 yard shots were routine, just that these guys actually could make one-shot kills at 400+ yards with skill, not just luck. They had ladder sights for range, and could choose not to shoot in high winds.

American Buffalo mill about when you shoot one. Hunters would shoot a number of them, from relatively close, once they were doing that. They called it a "stand".

MO:

1. Get close enough to the herd to make one good shot. It's really not THAT hard at 400 yards with skill and familiarity with the rifle, on a pretty big target. Rifles were heavy and I find them amazingly easy to shoot accurately offhand or from sticks, resting on anything, whatever, from a good distance. "Accurately" means "in a buffalo lung area", which is a pretty big target. Hitting a gong of that size, standing offhand, at about 250 yards, was not at all hard, the first time.

2. Approach the stand of milling buffalo and shoot as many as possible before they trundle off.

H&Hhunter
December 28, 2007, 10:14 PM
Bear,

I'd buy 400 yards with a skilled marksmen.

The claims I find dubious about are the 1000+ yard claims. I am sure it happened but I have my doubts as to how consistent it could possibly be.

paintballdude902
December 29, 2007, 12:59 AM
there is a video someplace online af a gus shooting a steel buffalo shaped target at i believe 4500yards and doing it very well i think he hit it 5 out of 5 shots with the ladder sight thats on it



a google showed this up

it talks about a 2 mile shot with a .45-70

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/ballistics/sandyhook03.htm

ArmedBear
December 29, 2007, 01:37 AM
I don't think that any serious historians talk about routine 1000 yard field shots.

However, there were some very good shots who could consistently drop game at up to half that. I hunted with competitive BPC guys, and if you'd be setting up for a shot, they'd mumble something like, "18 inches". They knew the trajectory of a .45-70. It would not be surprising for the hunters to know, since they made a living by knowing. A lot of us know an amazing amount of jargon, a chartful of numbers, hundreds of computer commands, etc., that are relevant to our occupations.

My point was that, if someone knew he could make shots out to 300 yards in light wind, he'd get himself within 250 yards or less if he could, before shooting. Shots were carefully aimed, and ammo was hoarded.

The buffalo hunters were not just shooting volleys at herds. Armies used that as a tactic in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, not commercial hunters.

frogomatic
December 29, 2007, 02:29 AM
a good 45-70 gun is capable of putting lethal energy into a target at over a mile. An aussie I go to school with was telling me about a trick shooter he saw in australia that could hit a man sized target 9 of 10 shots at 2.5 kilometers with just old fashioned aperture sights.

Nematocyst
December 29, 2007, 03:46 AM
An aussie I go to school with was telling me about a trick shooter he saw in australia
that could hit a man sized target 9 of 10 shots at 2.5 kilometers with just old fashioned aperture sights.OK.

We got two choices:

1) "It's" getting real deep in here. :uhoh:
2) This caliber is capable of some interesting tricks.

It's a testable hypothesis.

Evidence anyone?

Eric F
December 29, 2007, 05:32 AM
common 2 mile shots guys the thread is for 45-70 not field artillery I might buy 45-120 going that far or 50-140. but 45-70 only off a moutian top into a valley.:mad:

Nematocyst
December 29, 2007, 05:44 AM
... 2 mile shots ... We have a new hypothetical max range:
2 mi = 3520 yds.

Anybody want 20 mi?

Escape velocity?

Mars?

Harve Curry
December 29, 2007, 10:55 AM
There are still 1000 yard matches held and 45-70 is a popular cartridge for it, and has been since the 1870's. Bisley Range at Surrey England.
Black Powder Metallic Silouettes is 200 to 500 meters, Creedmore is 1000 yards. 500 grains of lead is still going about 900fps at that range. The 1884 Buffington rear sight set a standard for generations to come on military rear sights. Arpeture sights, and sights that match the target being shot at. Five shot, 4" groups at 300 yards in the book 40 years with the 45-70, by Paul Matthews. Velocity is not so important as it's made to be nowadays. A 350 gr 45 caliber bullet will go through a buffalo's chest broadside at 800 fps. How much more do you need?
Mike Venturino did a study of the 45-70 at Yuma Proving Grounds where they track trajectory and velocity. I haven't read it in a long time, but it surprised those guys. A 500+ grain bullet is a formidable projectile. The limit is the rifleman's ability.

H&Hhunter
December 29, 2007, 04:13 PM
"The buffalo hunters were not just shooting volleys at herds. Armies used that as a tactic in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, not commercial hunters."


Bear,

I've read about 1000 yard and even 1800 yard buff shot claims from various old west articles. These are the ones I am saying had to be walked into the target. Either that or somebody got real darn lucky on a first shot hit.

The thing is if you shoot enough at enough stuff your bound to launch a golden BB every once in awhile.

Anytime I read about these 700 or 800 yard or longer shots or any other even long range number the alarm bells start to ring in my head. If you don't know your range to within several yards out there you are going to miss. IE there is a HUGE difference between 700 yards and 761 yards, enough that with a modern CRF round you are going to be entirely off target with a normal hold.

So for a buffalo shooter to estimate a buffalo's range within several yards past about 400 yards with the available technology in the 1800's would have been simply impossible. To make consistent first shot hits at those ranges would have been simply impossible.

The difference between the long range silhouette shooters of today and a buff hunter of the 1800's is the modern guy is shooting at targets at a fixed known distance. All he needs to do is dial in his sight and let loose. The range estimation or lack there of would have been the fly in the ointment 120 years ago.

A front blade will give you an estimated range within maybe a 100 yards or so at serious long range. That is not accurate enough to be putting bullets on fur with first round hits. You can't tell me that these guys didn't have to take ranging shots when shooting long distance. The technology simply wasn't there to connect those shots any other way.

I agree with you that most of the market shooting was done within 300 yards. I am simply talking about these outlandish claims We read about from time to time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

4500 yards is not possible with a .45-70. Period.

What does amaze me however is that over 130 years after this round was first introduced it STILL enlightens the imagination of shooters the world over.

I have now read (on the internet of course) that not only is this round the best dangerous game rounds on the planet(different thread of course) but it is now capable of being used as a counter sniper round at distances exceeding 2 miles and almost touching 3 miles. It has become apparent that there is no need for modern rounds such as the 50 BMG, the 416 Barret or the .338 Lapua as the grand old .45-70 neatly exceeds the performance parameters of them all.

God bless the 45-70!

ArmedBear
December 29, 2007, 04:16 PM
Like I said, nobody serious claims that 1000 yard shots were routine.

That's different from a story about a particular shot that amazed everyone (often including the shooter).

Vern Humphrey
December 29, 2007, 04:28 PM
The .45-70 in a Marlin can be loaded to equal the ballistics of the .450 Marlin (which is simply a belted .45-70.) So loaded, a man with practice can make shots out to around 300 yards.

But before you rush out and load up a thousand cartridges to that level, load up an half dozen and shoot them, and ask yourself. "Am I having fun?"

H&Hhunter
December 29, 2007, 04:45 PM
"But before you rush out and load up a thousand cartridges to that level, load up an half dozen and shoot them, and ask yourself. "Am I having fun?""

Vern.

No kidding! A light 1895 marlin is one of the most ferocious finger nippers and face smackers around with serious heavy loads. I'd rather spend the same amount of time behind a heavy bolt or double rifle any day. They are built with recoil in mind. The little ole 1895 ain't!

Vern Humphrey
December 29, 2007, 04:51 PM
No kidding! A light 1895 marlin is one of the most ferocious finger nippers and face smackers around with serious heavy loads
A kid who used to be in my Catechism class got his dad to get him a .450 Marlin. Now this kid is over 18, weighs around 190 lbs, works out and is not fat. He was telling me all about his new deer rifle, and I asked him if he'd shot it yet. He said no, but he planned to shoot it the next day.

Next time I saw him, he told me he took it back and traded for a .30-30.:p

Harve Curry
December 29, 2007, 05:15 PM
I don't like those warmish loads either. 330gr at 1580fps is all I care to handle. I have a friend here who converts everything to 450 Alaskan and loads it up, shoots them out of a 1886 Winchester/Browning models. I shot the 50BMG set up with a good muzzlebrake, a Burris Black Diamond scope and I don't think it hurts as bad.

Vern Humphrey
December 29, 2007, 05:20 PM
In my humble opinion, there are a lot more hairy-chested computer operators than hairy-chested shooters.:D

Nematocyst
December 29, 2007, 06:10 PM
Next time I saw him, he told me he took it back and traded for a .30-30.Hahahahaha...

Yeah, I'm tall & thin, weigh less than 150 soaking wet. I'm just not quite sure I'll ever do heavy rnds in a .45-70, and if I do a .45-70 at all, I'll probably lean towards a full-sized one with long barrel (rather than 1895G) for the extra weight. Time will tell ...

Vern Humphrey
December 29, 2007, 06:21 PM
There was a time when "experts" writing in gun magazines assured us the old punkin' roller was just the thing for "bucking the brush." We know better now. Whenever I'm seized by a desire to buy a .45-70, I wind up asking myself, "What will it do that my .30-06 won't do?"

Eric F
December 30, 2007, 09:17 AM
"What will it do that my .30-06 won't do?"

Um............make a .458 entry hole on the target

Buzztail
December 30, 2007, 10:12 AM
Quote:
"What will it do that my .30-06 won't do?"

Um............make a .458 entry hole on the target


:D

I like heavy bullets at a reasonable velocity in the .45-70.
If I want speed, I'll take the .204 Ruger. I'm not going to shoot either at anything two miles away

ArmedBear
December 30, 2007, 10:35 AM
What will it do that a .30-06 won't do?

Uh, go right through a buffalo and drop it in one shot, with hand-cast lead round nose bullets. Then it will do the same thing to a varying hare, without damaging much meat, believe it or not. Used a 520 grain for both, within an hour of each other.

Modern hunting rounds rely on terminal performance, i.e. fancy bullets going the right velocity to expand properly at the right depth, to work well. That means you have to match the bullet to the velocity and the type game, to get them to work right, and also that you can tear up meat as they veer off in various directions.

The big .45-70 works about the same at whatever velocity, no expansion, no fancy bullet required, no fragmentation or jacket separation, nothing else to worry about. Doesn't tend to "veer off" inside the game, either.

And a big bullet trumps velocity and energy when it comes to dropping big game. Otherwise, a .223 would work well on Brown Bear. No need to worry about some rule of thumb like "1000 ft-lb for whitetail" with a .45-70. You don't even need that for buffalo.

The fact is, just about everything about a modern bullet is a high-tech way to get a small, light flat-shooting round to perform like a bigger bullet that doesn't shoot flat, when it hits its target. And compromises are never the same as the real deal.

Again, the real bitch is the .45-70's trajectory. But for on-game performance, assuming you hit the game in the first place, it's hard to beat.

H&Hhunter
December 30, 2007, 02:10 PM
Bear,

On big game there is simply no substitute for large bore heavy bullets. :).

The British figured out a long time ago that a .450 or bigger bore 500 gr+ pill at 2150FPS was the magic number for heavy game the world over. It was true 120 years ago and it is true today.

The .45-70 is severely lacking in velocity but is still an effective killer none the less due to bore diameter and bullet weight.

I personally won't have anything to due with one on a African dangerous game. But it is fine for everything else.

The big British nitro rounds are very similar to what you've described, performance wise. They just give substantially more in every regard.

Vern Humphrey
December 30, 2007, 03:13 PM
Uh, go right through a buffalo and drop it in one shot, with hand-cast lead round nose bullets.
I can do the same with a .30-06, if you're talking about the American bison. As for African game, Ernest Hemingway killed a rhino with a .30-06, using a 220-grain solid.

Eric F
December 30, 2007, 03:28 PM
Quote:
Uh, go right through a buffalo and drop it in one shot, with hand-cast lead round nose bullets.

I can do the same with a .30-06, if you're talking about the American bison. As for African game, Ernest Hemingway killed a rhino with a .30-06, using a 220-grain solid.
There is one in every crowd every one talking about 45-70 and you come along with 30-06...WELL HERE IS A TOPPER FOR YOU TRY 50-90 SHARPS(more joke here than serious ok)
as far as a rhino goes there is a reason african countries mandate a minimum caliber for large/dangerous game........also he was really close to the rhino and it was not a full grown one either IIRC

Had you said .416-anything I would be allot less apt to argue the point.

Matt304
December 30, 2007, 03:38 PM
I can do the same with a .30-06, if you're talking about the American bison. As for African game, Ernest Hemingway killed a rhino with a .30-06, using a 220-grain solid.

Sure you can do it. But you cannot do it the same way, the more reliable way.

A 30-06 bullet is not made to crush large bone and stay on course. It is at best a medium game round that can be used on large game. The bullet will fall apart when trying to do the job of the 45-70 through thick bone. A bullet with a large flat meplat, especially a heavy one like 405, 430, or 500gr, is going to crush heavy bone and keep charging its way down the path it is supposed to take. This is a characteristic that comes with the correct shape and weight, two things the 30-06 does not have. If energy is a third factor, then I believe it is safe to say that the 30-06 strikes out.

Vern Humphrey
December 30, 2007, 04:03 PM
A 30-06 bullet is not made to crush large bone and stay on course.
Actually, it is -- we have .30 caliber bullets that do very well in that department.

WhoKnows
December 30, 2007, 04:33 PM
How many can see a target at 1000 yds with open sights? Taking shots at 500 yds Windage,Elevation,Skill and luck is what comes into play. Has anyone shot at 250yds+ and felt like the bullet took a long time to hit? I had a 444 Marlin and sold (:cuss:) it for a bolt action but after shooting my brothers 45-70 browning last summer all I could say was Dammm I want a 45-70

Eric F
December 30, 2007, 07:27 PM
Actually, it is -- we have .30 caliber bullets that do very well in that department.
ok dude give it up will ya

And your point is?...........oh aggrevation of others perhaps............yes some .30 rounds will kill big animals also is that what you are looking for? :banghead: there now you have it PLEASE MOVE ON:cuss:.......Don't be a stuge

Vern Humphrey
December 30, 2007, 07:33 PM
This started when I said every time I am tempted to buy a .45-70, I always ask, "What will it do my .30-06 won't do?"

It appears I have stumbled into some secret religion, and am now accused of heresy.:p

Do I have to wear sack cloth and ashes for daring to believe the .30-06 will do everything the .45-70 will do? And a lot more besides?:rolleyes:

Eric F
December 30, 2007, 07:44 PM
It appears I have stumbled into some secret religion, and am now accused of heresy.

Do I have to wear sack cloth and ashes for daring to believe the .30-06 will do everything the .45-70 will do? And a lot more besides?


HE IS NOT ONE OF US....BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!



Oh yeah one more thing wind will affect your punny bullet a lot more than our larger heavier bullet:evil:

in "short" mine is bigger than yours:neener:

in responce to #67..........What ever

Vern Humphrey
December 30, 2007, 08:42 PM
Oh yeah one more thing wind will affect your punny bullet a lot more than our larger heavier bullet
Actually not. Wind drift is proportionate to Ballistic Coefficient. There are .30 caliber bullets with much higher ballistic coefficients than the heaviest .45 bullets.

H&Hhunter
December 30, 2007, 09:45 PM
Vern,

Are you saying that a .458, 500gr Barnes SD .313 and And BC nearing 500 is a slouch?;)

lets not even talk about the 600gr and heavier .458 bullets.

There are lots of choices in the .458 diameter world of bullets.

Of course a .45-70 is seriously sucking hind tit with 500gr and heavier bullets.

Harve Curry
December 30, 2007, 10:39 PM
I think the 30-06 would kill as good as any 45-70 if it were shot out of a Trap door Springfield or 1874 Sharps.:D

It is intersting to note the velocity loose of medium to heavy weight, fat subsonic bullets is so slight, when compared to the rate that super sonic rounds shed their velocity.

Vern Humphrey
December 31, 2007, 10:40 AM
Are you saying that a .458, 500gr Barnes SD .313 and And BC nearing 500 is a slouch?
I am saying that there are .30 caliber bullets of equal BC -- and you can launch them quite a bit faster.
Of course a .45-70 is seriously sucking hind tit with 500gr and heavier bullets.
Yes, indeed. If you need an elephant gun, the .45-70 is not your best choice.

22-rimfire
December 31, 2007, 11:13 AM
Chuckle Chuckle.... I love this thread! It does seem that it is a religion just like EBR's. I'm not really interested in a 45-70, but a 375 H&H, that's another matter....

Vern Humphrey
December 31, 2007, 11:28 AM
Actually, my "heavy" rifle is Bigfoot Wallace, a custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen. It drives a 225-grain Nosler PJ an honest 2,800 fps. With a rifle like that, I'd like to have a .375 H&H, but can't justify it as long as I only hunt in North America.

H&Hhunter
December 31, 2007, 12:04 PM
Vern,

You have unknowingly entered the realm of the of one of the weirdest gun nut cults on the planet.

I have heard some of the most unreal stuff you can possibly imagine coming from the collective mouths of .45-70 shooters.;)

Example, I was once told by member of the .45-70 cult that "IF" he were ever to go to Africa to hunt dangerous thing s that he would rather have his .45-70 than my .458 Lott. When I inquired as to why he claimed that the .45-70 has superior penetration to the .458Lott.

I then inquired as to the reason which of course he'd spent a lot of time on the Garret ammo web site and quoted some of Mr. Garrets marketing info from his sight.

So I asked the red faced fanatical young man if I were to down load my .458 Lott to match the velocity of his .45-70, you know wipe 800 FPS right off the top of my .458 Lott loads, and to use the same lead bullets if it would then be as an effective round as his .45-70?

Answer, and I kid you not.......

No it wouldn't because it is still "only just" a .458Lott......:)

I get this kind of stuff from the worshipers of the .45-70 idol far to often especially when it comes to the subjects of long range and dangerous game capability.

I mean just have a look right here on this thread. We have several claims of artillery like range capability with the round. I am talking about stuff that is so far beyond reality that it shouldn't even be entertained as a thought.

Mention .45-70 and they come out of the wood work!!

ArmedBear
December 31, 2007, 12:08 PM
There are .30 caliber bullets with

we have .30 caliber bullets that do

there are .30 caliber bullets of

That was my point.

You can screw around with bullets and loads for a .30-06. It's arguably the best round for someone who reloads and sights in his rifle as a hobby. It does shoot well, and I have one.

What a .45-70 does differently is this: You work up a load that shoots well in the gun, and you just use it. For everything. Won't wreck the meat on an antelope, and you can turn around and drop a bison with the next round. With black powder, if you so desire, even. And the .45-70 works well in a neat little lever carbine, as well as an oversized revolver, if you're so inclined.

The .30-06 might be the ideal reloader's platform. The .45-70 is the ideal round for someone who doesn't like working up 100 different loads and buying all sorts of bullets, but who does enjoy memorizing trajectory numbers.:D

Is the .45-70 the end-all cartridge? I didn't say that. Is it an elephant gun? No, though Buffalo Bore pushes it closer than someone might think. Do I even own one? No, I borrowed one for a while. I might get one, at some point. Is it a religion? Not to me.:)

H&Hhunter
December 31, 2007, 12:11 PM
Ahh the .375H&H.

Now there is a true long range thumper.

I shoot a 270 gr Barnes TSX @ 2750FPS talk about a long range buff thumper!

SD near of nearly 300 and a BC approaching 500.

Now we are worshiping at my idol!!;)

Us collective gun nuts all have at least one...:)

Vern Humphrey
December 31, 2007, 12:16 PM
What a .45-70 does differently is this: You work up a load that shoots well in the gun, and you just use it.
There's a law that says people who use the .30-06 have to keep changing loads?!?!

In fact, a lot of .30-06 shooters like to stick with one load -- and with this advantage; the .30-06 will deliver at short range and at longer ranges. I can be hunting white tails in a swamp one day, and antelope on the plains the next, and still use the same load and sight setting.

Vern Humphrey
December 31, 2007, 12:18 PM
I have heard some of the most unreal stuff you can possibly imagine coming from the collective mouths of .45-70 shooters.
Including the claim that you have to keep switching loads if you want to shoot a .30-06.:rolleyes:

H&Hhunter
December 31, 2007, 12:19 PM
Bear,

Even the most hostile load that Garret makes does not meet the required minimum energy levels for any of the African countries who allow free range thick skinned DG hunting.

Vince Luppo shot all of his stuff on game farms in South Africa.

Those very few folks who have used there .45-70's outside of South Africa to hunt buff or ele or hippo have done so technically in violation of the local game laws.

Garrets marketing scheme is a marketing scam.

He makes great ammo but it isn't even legal for the purposes that the claims they should be used.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Including the claim that you have to keep switching loads if you want to shoot a .30-06."

Vern,

I was thinking the same thing.;)

22-rimfire
December 31, 2007, 12:46 PM
H&H, I bet you enjoyed the article on the 375 in Shooting Times this month. It certainly worships at your alter.

(Added) Greg Rodriquez, the author "375 Holland & Holland More Than Enough" (Feb 2008 ST issue) really gets around. I'm envious. He also wrote another 375 article in the issue on the Kimber Caprivi rifle. It is a good issue for shooters who like sporting rifles not to mention the article on the 327 Fed Mag.

H&Hhunter
December 31, 2007, 12:58 PM
.22,

I haven't seen it. Thanks I'll go have to find it now!!:)

ArmedBear
December 31, 2007, 01:06 PM
H&H, I'm not suggesting that anyone use a .45-70, no matter how hot, on large African game, just that .45-70 in a gun made of modern steel can be loaded a lot hotter than some people recognize.

I'm also not saying you have to keep switching loads with a .30-06. It was Vern who kept pulling out the "you can get bullets that..." canard.

Deer and antelope with the same .30 bullet? Why not? I wrote "bison", not "deer".

the .30-06 will deliver at short range and at longer ranges

The .45-70 will, also.

sight setting

That's exactly what I said. It shoots flatter.

Vern Humphrey
December 31, 2007, 01:17 PM
I'm also not saying you have to keep switching loads with a .30-06. It was Vern who kept pulling out the "you can get bullets that..." canard.
What canard? Are you saying there are not .30 caliber bullets with a BC of .5 or over?

And would the BC change from day to day, so you have to change loads?
Deer and antelope with the same .30 bullet? Why not? I wrote "bison", not "deer".
And I can take deer, antelope and bison with the same load in .30-06. And moose and grizzley.

eliphalet
December 31, 2007, 03:49 PM
And I can take deer, antelope and bison with the same load in .30-06. And moose and grizzley.Absolutely, haven't shot a moose or grizzley but several elk with 30-06 that passed right on through and feel real confident the same bullet will moose or bison also.
We had a thread where a guy on this board this month shot a buffalo with a 150 grain 270 that went wasn't stopped.
No expert here but have shot a elk with a 50 caliber heavy slow bullet through the lungs and several with a 150 grain from a '06, the damage from the smaller faster caliber was far more devastating to the lungs and internals than the heavy slower bullet. Both types penetrated completely through the heart lung area and exited if no major bones are struck.
Large Meplate's can be expounded on all ya want but in my minimal experience the hydro-shock of the faster bullet does far more damage to internal organs than the slower heavier bullets, but both will get the job done just fine if shots are placed correctly at least on American game.
With a second thought,the lighter faster bullet does need to be constructed to mushroom or expand but stay intact and not fragment.

H&Hhunter
December 31, 2007, 07:20 PM
"H&H, I'm not suggesting that anyone use a .45-70, no matter how hot, on large African game, just that .45-70 in a gun made of modern steel can be loaded a lot hotter than some people recognize."

Bear,

I never suggested that YOU were. Rather I was commenting on a select group of folks who try and make the .45-70 into something that it is not. Kind of like the 4500yard comment we saw on this thread.

I don't know what it is but you mention .45-70 and without fail you'll see some of these ridiculous statements being made.

I own and have killed much game with a .45-70. I promise you much more than any of the guys you see making these ludicrous statements on the net.;)

I like the old .45-70 but I don't try to convince people that it is anything other than a .45-70.

Gewehr98
December 31, 2007, 08:52 PM
1. It appears somebody put a quarter into the Wayback Machine with this thread, which was last active in December of 2006.

2. I extend an open invitation to attend the BPCR Silhouette Matches with me in Lodi, WI. We thwack life-size steel buffalo silhouettes out to and beyond 800 yards. No laser rangefinders allowed, BTW.

3. I extend a follow-on invitation to travel with me to Forsyth, MT, for the 14 Jun 2008 annual Quigley shoot, where the buffalo silhouettes are again set up at 800 yards. It's fondly known as ”The biggest rifle shooting event in Eastern Montana since the Custer Massacre.” Leverguns are welcome.

4. I don't suscribe to the theory that our shooting forefathers were such idiots that they couldn't figure target range to save their posteriors. Far from it, they were acutely aware of the loping trajectories of the .38-55, .45-70, etc. I'd go so far as to wager they were considerably more astute than today's WalMart one-box-of-ammo-per-year Point Blank Range magnum shooters with respect to knowing what their weapons capabilities were. Vernier sights were/are graduated for some reason, nicht wahr? Were 1000-yard bison shots common? Probably not. However, I'm confident that I can thwack my bison this year at 400 yards or better, using a 535gr Postell moving at a leisurely 1200fps muzzle velocity, and I wasn't around in the 1870's to absorb the tricks of the trade.

5. Maybe I'm not reading the right gun forum, but as far as I know, nobody is ascribing magical HUNTING qualities to the old .45-70 round, whether it's in the original BP Trapdoor or ohmygawd Level III smokeless loadings. I'd like to see where folks are giving the old round magical heat-seeking Sidewinder attributes, honestly, because then I know it's not just a burr under a certain poster's saddle. I do respect that the Sandy Hook tests proved the round's lethality vs. human targets way out there, and a more recent test at White Sands confirmed the ballistics via a type of counter-battery doppler radar. Aimed fire at that range? No. Think Volley Fire, which is a term dropped from the military lexicon some time ago, once precision guided munitions minimized long-range infantry engagement. However, as the current phase of belted and shortfat magnums makes the cycle once again, I cannot help but noticing that the older, tried-and-true rounds like the .45-70 Government and .30-30 Winchester soldier on, putting meat on the table without fanfare, like they have for over 100 years.

6. There's more than one way to thump Bambi - light and fast vs. heavy and slow. As Ron White points out with respect to heavy and slow,

I've got a thirty-aught six rifle that can fire a bullet at 2500 feet per second. When that deer looked up ta' lick the salt lick I'd hung from the danged ol' tree, I caught him right above the eye." And I'm going, "Yeah? Well I hit one with a van. Going 55 miles an hour, with the headlights on and the horn blowin'!" Woo, that's an elusive little creature! If you ever miss one, it's because the bullet's moving too fast. I'll tell you what; slow the bullet down to 55 miles an hour, put some headlights and a little horn on it, the deer will actually jump in front of the bullet!

7. Lest we forget, Karamojo Bell was (in)famous for using the 6.5x54MS and 7x57 Mauser to take dangerous game on the African Continent. How foolhardy is that, relying as a hunter on shot placement and sectional density to get the job done? Likewise, our own Rich Lucibella has made it a matter of public record that he thumped said dangerous game over there using a .45-70 with Garrett loads. The pictures are still up at TFL, IIRC. Go figure, the man should be an absolute bloody smear in a Cape Buffalo rut somewhere, having the unmitigated gall to use a .45-70 vs. a .460 Lott or .470 Nitro Express. :o

8. The limitations of the .45-70 are mainly a factor of the shooter's skill with respect to arched trajectory. Leverguns are by nature handy things with shorter barrels and rudimentary buckhorn sights - so they do require extra vigilance. Regardless, if you cannot or do not want to work with it, then don't - keep your ranges short, or switch rifles and go for Max Point Blank Range with a belted magnum and big objective scope - leave the old-time skills to others with the initiative to learn the techniques.

Nematocyst
December 31, 2007, 09:01 PM
That's a fine post, G'98. Interesting reading.
(amongst a bunch of other fine posts and more interesting reading...)

Will read it again more carefully later ... but after food ...
... all this talk of buffalo burgers is making me hungry! :D

Eric F
January 1, 2008, 10:43 AM
So why do people come up on a thread to talk about something else all together? Are they just trying to be a jerk or do they have a valid point? If there were a thread about 9mm and somebody came along and said 10mm is better all around. What would the point be?
An old Irish preist once asked me this"So why is it in the warld thare are more harses arses than thare are harses?"
Quote:
I have heard some of the most unreal stuff you can possibly imagine coming from the collective mouths of .45-70 shooters.
You find this all over the internet

"What will it do that my .30-06 won't do?"

take a 500 gr bullet
sit on my reloading bench
take a black powder charge(well it could but who would do that)

point is I can argue and justify anything you want me to but the real question is how will I look in the end?

ArmedBear
January 1, 2008, 12:06 PM
Mmmmm....

We had some buffalo steak last night, compliments of a 520 grain .45-70 bullet driven by black powder.

I know it can do that anyway.:)

H&Hhunter
January 1, 2008, 12:28 PM
We've have been eating on a buffalo since May of 07.

She was taken with a .45-70 and 405 gr Remington SP @ about 100 yards.

Yep, the old girl is still capable of bringing home the groceries.

ocharry
January 1, 2008, 02:47 PM
ya know i was gona git in here on this and say somethin like at the quigly that on one day them guys have all day to get their sight settings,,and that a good spotter can absolutely make you look like a genius,,,, along with your riflery skills too of course

and that i doubt that most of the old buff hunters took a stand at much over 300 yrds. and the trick to getting a stand was to watch the herd and pick out the LEAD COW,,, and you had to put her down,,at which point the herd would mill around until another LEAD COW would lead off trying to get he herd to follow, at which point the hunter would put her down and while these animals were in this state of confusion the killing field was getting real bloody,,,,did these guys know their guns and the trajectory,,,most of them did,,,their fortune was on the line,,,,,,and they could shoot,,,cause that's what they did

and that IIRC terminal velocity of one of them 500+ grainers FALLING out of trajectory(or the sky) and that is what it is doing,,, is in the 7-800 fps

and that the strike window at 1000 yrds. is only a few feet and at the 1500+ yrds that OL BILLY knocked that indian off his horse the strike window is only a few inches,,,,,,,,, an OL BILLY himself said "it was a lucky shot"..........and i don't think indian died,,,,,,,,,,but it skeert the shucks out of the rest of em and so the adobe walls conflict came to an end

this is all about the black powder guns of days gone by,,,,i don't use to much of that smokyless stuff,,,,,,,,,there is nothing like the smell of that smoke on a cold crisp morning just after the shot

to the OP,, i use my 45-70 a lot and FOR ME,, a 300 yrd shot out of my ol marlin,,,, i would not hesitate,,, i know i can make the shot and that 425 gr. bullit is gona do the job(this rifle has a small tang sight on it that will take it to about 425 yrds)

lots of good stuff here and lots of funny stuff too

H&H that line about the "just a 458 lott" that was too funny,,,, my wife came in here to see what the big joke was,,, i got a purty good laugh out of that one

but i don't think i am gona say anymore,,, it is more fun to sit here and read this stuff

oh by the way HAPPY NEW YEAR THR

and i told myself to just keep my mouth shut and read :banghead:

ocharry

pit-sitter
January 5, 2008, 01:44 AM
For the wisenheimers who made the comments about NASA and escape velocity and other disparaging remarks about the 45-70 at 1000 or 2000 yards
Read this about shooting at 2500 and 3000.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/ballistics/sandyhook.htm

Nematocyst
January 5, 2008, 02:53 AM
For the wisenheimers who made the comments about NASA and escape velocity and other disparaging remarks about the 45-70 at 1000 or 2000 yards
Read this about shooting at 2500 and 3000.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targe.../sandyhook.htm

From the report:

The report of October 15, 1879, covers long range firing at Sandy Hook, New Jersey. This was done along the beach to make the location of the bullet strike easier to find. Also, the long beaches allowed shooting back to 3,200 and even 3,500 yards.

<snip>

The target, which had been 12 feet by 12 feet square at 1,500 yards, was changed to one 44 feet long by 22 feet high. The extended wings had a height of 16 feet. I stand corrected. Clearly, I was wrong.

Next time I need to take down
a (grounded) Pterodactyl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterosaur) at 3000 yds,
I'm reaching for a .45-70.

http://d21c.com/AAALynx/dino/Pterodactyl4.jpg

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