Troubleshoot Sunday!


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1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 12:59 PM
Double, Double! Toil and Trouble!

I aquired a well-worn Norinco a few months back for a 100 bucks. The owner warned me that there was an issue. (Ain't there always an issue when buyin' pigs in pokes?) Every so often, the hammer wouldn't fall when the finger was applied to the bang-switch. Racking the slide returned the gun to functional status. Okay...Easy one, I sez. Disconnect reset. Probably a hickey in the lockwork somewhere.

So, I proceed to gut the pistol and replace the sear and disconnect while in the overhaul/refitting process. Rails peened down...slide lightly squeezed...barrel replaced...
sear and disconnect...prepped/polished all mating parts...etc.etc. The standard fare.

Test-fire day comes last Monday. Bangbangbang....*snick* Racked the slide...Bangbang..*snick* Hmmm. Every so often, huh?

Scraped the disconnect slot a bit deeper in the slide, even though I couldn't hear a solid *click* when the disconnect did a reset. No joy. Scraped it a little deeper, and even lengthened it a tiny bit. No joy.

Slide goes to full battery. Disconnect is within spec. Sear pin hole is located correctly.
No boogers, burrs, or hickeys anywhere. Sear spring is new and correctly adjusted.
Top of disconnect kisses air in the slot. Disconnect moves freely in its tunnel. Trigger slot
is located correctly...but still no joy.

Why? Why? WHY????

Early this morning, after yet another no-joy test...I finally saw it. Took all of three minutes to correct it...plus one replaced part.

What was it gang? Thinkin' caps on...and...GO!

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ZeSpectre
December 17, 2006, 01:14 PM
Broken hammer spring or maybe broken trigger bar spring (that'd be hard to notice)

1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 01:26 PM
ZeSpectre...Nope. Other than the disconnect failing to fully reset and slipping off the sear leg, all functions were normal.

The pistol was overhauled, which included replacing all springs.

jungle
December 17, 2006, 01:36 PM
Out of spec trigger in the aft upper stirrup area allowing trigger to ride under disconnector engagement with sear legs? Short disconnector?

1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 01:50 PM
CLose, jungle...Close. :cool: Disconnect is within spec, though.

jungle
December 17, 2006, 01:57 PM
Slightly short lower legs on sear?

saltydog452
December 17, 2006, 02:02 PM
jungle beat me to it. Maybe the trigger channel sending the bow assy into places where it wasn't ment to go?

salty.

Magnumite
December 17, 2006, 02:51 PM
trigger movement was inhibited by the lug under the trigger bow stop on the grip safety

1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 02:57 PM
Jungle...Nope. The sear's hunky-dory. I'd have spotted that issue during the prep and initial assembly anyway. I always check for disconnect/sear leg interference.

SALTY! You old dawg! You're blisterin' the monitor here! Kudos, mah fren! Gimme a little mo' detail.:cool:

jungle
December 17, 2006, 03:06 PM
Trigger bow/hammer strut interplay?

1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 03:09 PM
Jungle...Nope. Not nearly that obvious.;)

jungle
December 17, 2006, 03:37 PM
Strange Chinese trigger stopping short against magazine release?

1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 03:50 PM
Well...I can't argue that sometimes the Chinese can be a little unfathomable...but no. The triger wasn't interfering with the mag release. The answer lies with the trigger and disconnect interface, but not for lack of smooth.

sm
December 17, 2006, 04:39 PM
Trigger bow bent more on one side at the rear (right) causing disconnect /sear to bangbangbang.
Remove trigger, straighten rear of bow - go to go ??

1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 05:13 PM
sm...Sorry. Didn't mean to imply that the gun was burst-firing. No space was intended to indicate no hesitation during the process until the *snick* happened.

But...no. Trigger bow wasn't bent.

Old Fuff
December 17, 2006, 05:43 PM
If pulling the trigger won't drop the hammer when the pistol is in battery, it means the disconector is depressed, and for what ever reason can't move up when it should. It would help if I had the gun on the bench :scrutiny: but I wonder if the trigger is keeping the disconector from resetting after the previous shot? Or the legs on the sear can pivot far enough forward to catch the disconector?

RogersPrecision
December 17, 2006, 06:18 PM
I had this happen once with a gun I built.
The center leaf of the sear spring was a little long. The disco would sometimes move so far down, that the spring leg contacted the flat above the bevel on the disco. Disco no risey, gat no bangy.
:uhoh:

1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 06:18 PM
Fuff...The disconnect was resetting far enough to engage the sear leg, but when I pulled the trigger, it slipped off...hence the "snick" described above.

The trigger wasn't causing it to happen. It was...>allowing<...it to happen. That's a riddle.:neener:

Don't feel bad. It had me stumped for two complete teardowns and about an hour of head-scratchin'.

Details at 6.:cool:

Eagle1899
December 17, 2006, 06:20 PM
Hammer strut out of spec causing a not so firm grip to allow it to block the grip safety?

sm
December 17, 2006, 06:25 PM
1911Tuner,
I misunderstood.
Don't you know you cannot shoot a plain vanilla 1911 fast unless it has cow bells and stuff hanging off it? ;)

Channel allowed trigger bow to ride up and hit sear/disconnect.
-Too "tall" (wide) at the rear and needed bow pinged to stretch.
-Burr in channel - causing it to ride up - just smooth.

Off the wall - Safety was not true, causing pivot of sear/disconnect to get out of alignment. Install in spec safety and holes lined up - true - on sear/disconnect.

I'm trying...where is my Book on the 1911 by that guy I just went brain drain on name. He did the hand sketches , starts with "H" .

Steve

1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 06:30 PM
Raja...Nope. This one was so well-hidden that I missed it with a mini mag light. I mean...this puppy had me stumped. The gun would fire for several rounds and stop. Rack the slide, and resume 'til the next time. I was scairt that my first defeat was gonna come in the form of a Chinese clone...and I'd have been forced to come beggin' for help. Only by the grace of the Lord's bright sunshine did I see it.

Steve...That would probably be Ken Hallock. A man can get into deep dookey with that little book.:D

1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 06:35 PM
Okay...I've held ya'll hostage long enough. :evil:

The trigger stirrup was sitting about .010 inch forward of flush with the frame abutment. The disconnect was moving too far forward during the reset function, and the upper right corner of the spade was just barely contacting the corner of the abutment. I literally had to take it out under direct sunlight to see exactly what was happening...and it revealed itself as a little shiny spot on the corner of that abutment. I had to turn the frame just at the correct angle to even see it.

Swapped triggers for one that sits flush...used a flat jeweling file to break the corners of the abutment for a little added insurance...and the problem disappeared. A return trip to the range...(who said that I don't obsess about these things?)...and 18 magazines later, the gun was runnin' like a top.

It's the little things that getcha. Oh! Yesssss...

sm
December 17, 2006, 07:30 PM
Ken Hallock - Thank you! Great Book!

Well...we were in the ballpark anyway.

As Always - much appreciated sir!

Steve

RogersPrecision
December 17, 2006, 09:20 PM
Hallock.....lol
"Hit it wiff a bigger hammer"
"Chamfer the lug recess corners in the roof of the slide"
"Stretch thumb and grip safeties"
No thanks......
:rolleyes:

1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 09:36 PM
Raja, I see you've read Hallock's little book.:D

FWIW, Ken does many things with the "Field Expedient" approach, likely coming from having to make do with what was on hand, as many unit armorers have done through the years...and for what works whenever an original part is worn or non-functional, and the preserving the originality is the desideratum. Not the best way, but it does work well enough in certain limited circumstances.

Now, that chamferin' of the slide lugs is where he and I part company.:rolleyes:

Like I said...You can get into deep ca-ca with that little gunshow booklet.

RogersPrecision
December 17, 2006, 09:48 PM
Tuner,
Thanks for all that you do!
:D

1911Tuner
December 17, 2006, 09:57 PM
Never doubted it for a minute, Raja...:cool:

sm
December 17, 2006, 11:16 PM
Thread drift.

Hallock's book was given to me by a Mentor. Hallock's sketches and some other features were used.
Mentors made it clear what to read, and what they did not agree with.
This was a neat addition to US Army Manuals.
Later works by Swenson and Jim Clark Sr, on some things they were doing...
Some folks shot BullsEye, some just like making notes on "the up and coming".
Kinda like recording for history what all was going on.

All this was destroyed, with lots of other mementos from Mentors now gone.
A THR member had Hallock's book and I got it . A signed copy - mine was a signed copy. Just my Mentor's name in his writing and words to me are not.

Anyone claims I am sentimental, sappy, or...well, you know...

I'll deny it. ;)

Mentor's guns were bone stock, Gov't model of 1911, and had some bluing. I took more of the bluing off. Now that gun is gone - same time as the book.
I appreciate and respect all folks do to the 1911- I was raised to run 'em stock. I own one that is not, and that one has a story too.
Stainless and has a duckbutt - no less! :eek: :D

It is all good.

Johnny - sorry about the drift.

steve

mierda
December 17, 2006, 11:22 PM
hey 1911 got any pics?

Old Fuff
December 17, 2006, 11:37 PM
The trigger wasn't causing it to happen. It was...>allowing<...it to happen. That's a riddle.

NOT FAIR!! I didn't get too look.... :( :D

1911Tuner
December 18, 2006, 06:20 AM
No sweat, Steve. Just didn't want anybody pickin' up one of those things and
thinkin': "Oh yeah! This is a LOT easier than Kuhnhausen!":D

Fuff...When ya finally head east, you can look at'em all ya want to.:cool:
(But ya still gotta drink the coffee.)

Mierda...Sorry. A picture wouldn't help anyway. I was lucky that I caught it even under direct sunlight. It was that subtle.

Whew! Close. Thought I was gonna hafta come in here and admit defeat.:uhoh:

230HB
December 18, 2006, 06:57 AM
Awwww c`mon Tuner ... you knew a Norc wasn`t gonna get the best of you :rolleyes:

Old Fuff
December 18, 2006, 10:24 AM
Fuff...When ya finally head east, you can look at'em all ya want to.
(But ya still gotta drink the coffee.)

Need to check that out with my doctor and life insurance agent... :neener: :D

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