Antis on the Charter Arms Undercover, post shooting (article on GunGuys.com)


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MatthewVanitas
December 17, 2006, 10:47 PM
-And in Chicago, a man angry over a patent dispute with an attorney invaded a high-rise office building and shot three people. The gun he used is called “The Undercover,” an extremely small pistol made specifically for using as a concealed weapon. The gun, it appears, was purchased illegally.

Joe Jackson was able to walk into the building at 500 W. Madison with a gun because authorities say the gun he was carrying was very easy to conceal. Jackson’s gun was manufactured by an American company called Charter Arms. It was a five-shot revolver, a .38 caliber short-barreled handgun named “The Undercover” because of its compact, 16 ounce steel frame, qualifying the gun as the smallest, lightest revolver made.

Priced at about $350 new, the Charter Arms “Undercover” is a popular murder weapon. Another one was used 26 years ago by Mark David Chapman to kill former Beatle John Lennon. Coincidentally, Lennon was murdered on December 8, the very same date that Joe Jackson used the same kind of gun in his law office rampage.


From: http://www.gunguys.com/?p=1740

They didn't cite which Chicago mediafolks printed the above article, and Google reveals nothing. Possibly hand-copied from a print-only article.

I'm not a fan of Ayoob's "Using a magnum-caliber in an otherwise clean shoot will get you convicted, because it's 'magnum' and will scare the jury" school of thought, but it's an interesting concept.

IRT the Lennon coincidence: if it's a "popular murder weapon", and a dozen people are shot every day, how is it so amazing that one of them on Dec 8th was shot with an Undercover? What a bizarre attempt...

Oh, terrible syntax in the first sentence of the middle paragraph. (yes, there is no verb in my previous sentence)

-MV

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Manedwolf
December 17, 2006, 11:03 PM
They didn't cite which Chicago mediafolks printed the above article, and Google reveals nothing. Possibly hand-copied from a print-only article.


Or they just made it up. They do that. That site lies constantly.

carterbeauford
December 17, 2006, 11:12 PM
Coincidentally, Lennon was murdered on December 8, the very same date that Joe Jackson used the same kind of gun in his law office rampage.

Yes, that is relevant information. Not put in there for emotional appeal or anything.

Charter Arms is the only manufacturer of guns that kill without human manipulation. Kel-Tec and NAA make similarly small guns, but still require human manipulation to kill.

Hoppy590
December 17, 2006, 11:15 PM
ok lets not kid ourselves. the only gun that kills on its own is the davis P380

up_onus
December 17, 2006, 11:42 PM
liars!!!!!
the smith and wesson 340pd is the lightest revolver ever made!!!:evil: it weighs in at 3-4 oz less!!!!!!

Just goes to show...

ilcylic
December 18, 2006, 02:46 AM
They don't make much of a case there, do they?

"This is a popular weapon for murder. Just a little over a quarter of a century ago, in fact, one of these guns was used in a killing..."

Eleven Mike
December 18, 2006, 08:36 AM
Never heard of that site before, and I just spent five minutes looking around on it. I'm going to go gouge out my eyes, now. :uhoh:

usp9
December 18, 2006, 08:50 AM
Coincidentally, Lennon was murdered on December 8, the very same date that Joe Jackson used the same kind of gun in his law office rampage.


Looks to me that we should start a push to BAN December 8th. Damned dangerous day if you ask me! :cuss:

Low-Sci
December 18, 2006, 09:43 AM
I'm in agreement with usp9 here. December 8th has done far too much damage to our nation and our society to be tolerated. And just the day before that was Pearl Harbor. I think its time that America skipped the seventh and eight days of December and went straight from the sixth to the ninth.

Think of how many lives will be saved from revolver shootings and Japanese attacks.

wally
December 18, 2006, 09:45 AM
Looks to me that we should start a push to BAN December 8th. Damned dangerous day if you ask me!

December 7th has been much worse.

--wally.

mec
December 18, 2006, 10:11 AM
On the A9 search engine
" These Pople Don't Like Guns, December 18, 2006
Reviewer: - mec
Stats are drawn from the Kellerman Study and no doubt, the Brady Campaign Apocrapha. Should be cited only if you are a deep partisan and not a bit interested in the truth. Otherwise, it appears to be news media reports spiked with op ed. Good emotional fuel for other people who don't like guns.
Trouble is Puritanism usually backfires. When the puritans of the early 20th century managed to ban alcohol, they made drinking even more popular than it already was and virtually invented organized crime in this country. When Bill Clinton had some successes with gun bans and increased bureaucracy a number of states reacted by passing concealed weapons licensure and sales of military type rifles and hi cap handguns went through the roof. Meanwhile, the violent crime rate continues to decline. "

Cosmoline
December 18, 2006, 10:31 AM
That "gunguys" site always cracks me up. It's a front for the antis, a faux blog with made up characters supposedly posting as sensible gun owners. But there's no "there" there. Just the usual suspects hiding (as usual) behind the curtain. Specifically, the "gun guys" is a front for Mark Karlin & Associates, a DC PR firm that acts in turn as a front for the Joyce Foundation. It's layer upon layer of deception, with reams of money changing hands at each step. What they don't have is any real people supporting them. It's astroturf grass roots. Blogging by characters who don't exist on behalf of a pr firm on behalf of a left wing Chicago based foundation. The elite of the elite, using a system of Russian dolls to try to leverage public opinion in its favor. That's the evil we're fighting.

My info comes from a real blogger, Joel Rosenberg, who's been peeking behind their curtain:

http://joelrosenberg.livejournal.com/180286.html

mec
December 18, 2006, 10:40 AM
shallow grass roots. It has a site ranking of 1,400,000 where Amazon.com has a ranking of 20, the high road ranks 30,984 , NRAILA-213,970, communist party of canada- 6,455,420(gee, nobody must visit that one.)

Sistema1927
December 18, 2006, 10:51 AM
Trouble is Puritanism usually backfires. When the puritans of the early 20th century managed to ban alcohol, they made drinking even more popular than it already was and virtually invented organized crime in this country.

Not wanting to be picky, but the Puritans were long off the scene prior to Prohibition. As a matter of fact, the English and American Puritans liked an occasional drink, and enjoyed lots of marital sex. For example:

“With respect to sex and marriage, the normal Puritan view was a robust and healthy one. The Rev. William Gouge, in Of domesticall duties (London, 1634), used Proverbs 5:18, 19, to express the joy and beauty of marital sex: “Let thy fountain be blessed, and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times, and be thou ravished always with her love.” The Puritans often spoke of marital sex as one of the great delights and joys among earthly blessings. Frye tells us that a ‘favorite Biblical passage cited by Puritan churchmen is Genesis 26:8 where it is recorded that “Isaac was sporting with Rebekah his wife [KJV].”” (p. 36) The Hebrew word for ‘sporting’ there does not mean, I assure you, ‘playing checkers’!”

Sadly they are painted as kill joys who didn't want anyone to have any fun, but that is not the case.

mec
December 18, 2006, 11:07 AM
Yep. Puritan has taken on the generic definition of ," One who is afraid that somewhere, someone is having a good time." The early Puritans did have their moments-particularly if youi conformed to the prevailing idea of a good time. Bundling in Cloths is one example. Puritan dates were often circumscribed by cold weather so the couple would get in bed under the blankets. The accepted practice was to put a heavy timber between them so that nobody got hosed by accident. The practice did have detractors but also had supporters such as Walt Whitman ( I think) who defended it in his poem "The Hoar on the Snowcrest."(Hoar meaning frost rather than otherwise). In one stanza he remarked " There's more been got upon the floor than any other place.""

On the sabath, the puritans insisted on austerity. No work done nor any boisterous entertainment. Men were allowed to sit and drink whiskey while children could play quietly with a model of Noah's Ark. I believe the Puritans got their bad rap from Johathan Edwards, Cotton Mather and other such grumpy old men.

Onmilo
December 18, 2006, 11:18 AM
Geez, and they didn't mention David Berkowitz, 'Son of Sam' used a .44 special Charter Arms Bulldog during his New York free for all in 1977??
What about the biker Illinois State Police shot to pieces up on I-80 in 1980 who was also armed with a Charter Arms Undercover .38???
Man, they should have done their homework a little better.
They could have found lots more examples of shootings being a specific manufacturers products fault and not the perpetrators,,,,,,,

mec
December 18, 2006, 11:41 AM
Or, of course, the dude that shot George Wallace. 'course he wasn't a communist and they might ignore him just like they ignore Switzerland when digging for "developed nations" stats.

grampster
December 18, 2006, 11:50 AM
Actually, the December 8th Chicago shooting must be a hoax. Guns are against the law in Chicago, aren't they? How could there be a shooting in a city that bans firearms? Just another example of the anti's not doing their homework. :confused: :neener:

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