[akanotken]

I'm looking for help in my letter to the ATF. Below is the body. Any help is welcomed. Also, looks like I should write this, not email? Any Idea if this is a good addy to use? Anyone else already ask this question of the ATF. Letter is between the x's. It has some formatting that wasn't preserved in the copy/paste.

TIA

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW.
Room 8290
Washington, DC 20226

Subject: Legality of owning a Saiga Shotgun and detachable magazines with more than 5 and less than 11 round capacity

Dear Sir or Madam:

I currently own a Saiga Shotgun, purchased and produced after the 1994 laws were enacted. I am writing for clarification on one aspect of the law. The section in question is quoted from:
United States Code
Title 18 – Crimes and Criminal procedure
Part 1- Crimes
Chapter 44 – Firearms
Section 922.Definitions
It reads:
(30) The term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means - ….(A),(B),(C) do not pertain to shotguns ….
(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of –
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

As I read this for understanding, owning a detachable magazine with a capacity of 6,7,8,9 or 10 rounds with my Saiga shotgun would be not constitute owning a “semiautomatic assault weapon”, as the only feature of the 4 listed would be the presence of a detachable magazine. Specifically (iii) does not come into play as the magazine would not be fixed, it would be detachable. Also know that it has neither a folding stock nor a pistol grip.

I would appreciate your confirmation of my view. Apparently others are not sure about the meaning, and erring on the side of conservatism are refraining from producing or importing magazines of this nature. Currently some dealers are only supplying these to Law enforcement officials, although they are not marked for Law enforcement use only.


Respectfully yours,

my name
Saiga owner seeking maximum capacity for use in defending my home, competing in shooting sports, and plinking.
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[BTR]

This seems to be a great question, let us know what you find out.

[Battler]

Ack - if it's up to their discretion, you can pretty much guess what their answer will be.

Better to leave it vague. . .

[Hkmp5sd]

The ability to accept a detachable magazine is the feature the AW ban is looking at, not the capacity of the magazine the firearm will accept.

ATF has already stated that using preban magazines in a post-ban gun is legal.

A large capacity magazine having a capacity of more than 10 rounds can be used in any semiautomatic rifle, provided that the magazine was lawfully possessed prior to September 14, 1994. It is unlawful for an individual to possess or transfer a large capacity magazine which was manufactured after September 13, 1994. We have included for your perusal additional information on semiautomatic assault weapons and large capacity ammunition feeding devices.

http://www.titleii.com/Bardwell/atf_letter26.txt


For future reference, requesting a ruling from ATF must be submitted in writing. They do not respond to emails. When writing, give as much information as possible to get an accurate answer. Being vague may get you the answer you want to hear, only to find out later, when you're looking at the flashing blue lights through your window, that wasn't what they meant and you are in possession of an illegal firearm.

Send all requests to:

Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, D.C. 20226

[GigaBuist]

I dug up this old thread today since I bought a Saiga shotgun in .410. I don't know why I got it, it's got absolutely no practical value that I know of, but I got it anyway. Darned 'gun nut' disease.

It looks like 10 round detachable magazines for shotguns are perfectly legal to manufacture. Why in the world can't I find any then? I see people on Saiga forums MAKING 8 round magazines themselves and what not.

I guess if I can't buy them from anwhere I could probably make my own. That should prove interesting.

[Badger Arms]

This is the address I used:

BATFE
Firearms Technology Branch
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW. Room 6450
Washington, DC 20226

[BTR]

I seem to remember a reading that the problem was not the AW ban, but the GCA '68. Apparently, semiauto shotguns that can hold in excess of five rounds are "unsporting" and therefor banned for importation. Therefore, it is supposedly illegal to use an 8 rounder in a stock saiga. I guess if you added a bunch of us made parts (don't know if any exist). It may be legal. Of course, all this may be wrong, but I remember reading it somewhere.

[DrDremel]

Why not hold off until September and see what happens. Asking ATF gets an OPINION that is not bound by law in many cases. The AWB will die then and if it is legal, they will be imported.

[BTR]

Import regs are much stricter than the AW law, so the demise of the AW ban won't effect what can be imported.

[Zoub]

I have 10 round mags for my .410 saiga, bought them with the gun in 2000. The issue is now dealers are affraid to sell them to non LEO's.

It comes from splitting hairs on the AWB. You can not put a fixed magazine tube on a post ban semi-auto shotgun with a capacity over 5 rounds. So the issue is even though it is a detachable magazine, it is over 5 rounds in a post ban shotgun.

Example, you can get 10 round mags for post ban Saiga .308 rifles, nothing bigger because there are no preban mags out there for a Saiga. If there were, you could use them in your gun.

When the AWB dies, the problem does too. Then I plan to put a folding stock on mine. Get a scope mount and try 3" slugs. Sort of a pretend .41 cal sub gun, but great light weight pack gun for hiking and hunting.

Then the question is does a .45 can work on a saiga .410?

[Hkmp5sd]

Then I plan to put a folding stock on mine.
You cannot put a folding stock on the Saiga when the AW ban dies in September. The Saiga is an imported shotgun and the installation of a folding stock creates a firearm that is not legal for importation. This is separate from the AW ban.

[loandr.]

several have contacted the atf for exactly this reason go yo www.saiga-12.com and do a search. it will go into detail and breakdown the areas that are currently grey.
Loandr.

[natedog]

Seriously though, think post AW ban...20 rounds of 12 gauge 00 buckshot....sweeeet....or perhaps 20 12 gauge 1 oz. slugs? Awesome.

[Correia]

Nate, since it is a single stack magazine a 20 rounder for the 12 guage would be way to long to be practical. The 8 rounders (which will fit 9 if you really push them) are already about as long as a 40 round AK magazine. Plus the Russians found that when the magazines held greater than 10 rounds, the bottom shells would tend to get deformed under recoil.

Personally I wouldn't say a word to the ATF about the Saiga until after September. Let the ban die, let dealers start to bring in tons of magazines, and then ask. That way when the ATF freaks and labels it a destructive device (like the USAS or the street sweeper) we will already have a supply of magazines.

[Nightcrawler]

You can not put a fixed magazine tube on a post ban semi-auto shotgun with a capacity over 5 rounds.

Not quite; you can't put a greater than five round tube on a post-ban semiauto with a PISTOL GRIP. If it has a standard grip the magazine tube can be as long as you like.

There's no reason that I can see that 8 round Saiga mags wouldn't be legal. People have them. It's just that I think distributors are so confused over the AWB and the slew of import regulations that they're afraid to sell them.

[Badger Arms]

Not quite; you can't put a greater than five round tube on a post-ban semiauto with a PISTOL GRIP. If it has a standard grip the magazine tube can be as long as you like.WOOHOO. Now I can take my Assault Shotgun to the range and be PROUD!

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=861641

[natedog]

Hahah....I've toyed with the idea of actually trying that, just because. Get like a 28" or 30" 870 barrel (I assume you can get them that long) and then weld together magazine tubes. I bet you could probably get the capacity to nearly 20.

[Nightcrawler]

There are actually 10 round tubes available for the 870 and 1100, for use with 28" barrels.

Probably pretty muzzle heavy. Heh.

[Correia]

Guys, I have a Remington 870 with a Choate 12 shot extension. It goes a little bit past the 30 inch barrel. :) And yes it is very muzzle heavy. I have not used it in a match yet, I will probably get to use it next Saturday. Should be interesting.

[Third_Rail]

Can we get a picture of that beast? :D