Non-citizen gun laws


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archerben
December 19, 2006, 12:03 PM
A co-worker just asked me if you have to be licensed to buy a gun in Utah. After telling him no, I remembered that he is not a US citizen and couldn't tell him what the law is concerning non-US citizens. Could somebody point me in the right direction to find the law concerning non-US citizens ability to purchase a firearm in the United States?

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LOST SOUL
December 19, 2006, 12:12 PM
I would check the BATF web site on that one.

archerben
December 19, 2006, 01:12 PM
Thanks for the suggestion. I found the information I was looking for.

ArfinGreebly
December 19, 2006, 01:25 PM
And that information turned out to be . . . ?

C'mon, don't tease.

7six2
December 19, 2006, 01:52 PM
A 'legal' Resident Alien can purchase with proper ID (Green Card #) and DL. In Texas you can also get a CCW.

Limeyfellow
December 19, 2006, 01:55 PM
If he's a permenent resident and not a citizen he still entitled to buy and own firearms.

Some people under work visas can get a special license to carry and own firearms such as business managers who carry large amounts of cash.

Those on visitor visas, student visas and so on or illegally aren't entitled.

As a permenent resident you have to fill out an extra form that has your alien number on it from your greencard and a few details and you generally set to go.

c_yeager
December 19, 2006, 02:00 PM
The hardest part (depending on your region) is finding a dealer who is willing/able to perform the transaction. Some of them arent familier or comfortable with the process and it would probably be to your co-worker's advantage to call ahead before showing up.

TheBigBulgarian
December 19, 2006, 02:19 PM
I am a Permanent Resident, or a Green Card holder. In PA to purchase a firearm you have to bring to the gun store or show, valid PA license, your Green Card, and proof of residence: utility bills from 3 consecutive months. Phone, water, gas. You can bring credit card bills, pay stubs but your background check will take a little longer if you do this. A nice gentleman at a gun show explained to me why my check was taking so long a couple of hours. Next time I brought the water bills and it took 20 min.

As a permanent resident you can apply for CCW as well. In PA the application process does not differ from the process for US Citizens.

Utah Laws might differ.

ps: some people might refuse to sell to your friend once he says he is a Permanent Resident. Happened to me at a gun show. The guy also had a sign banning foreign languages at his table. He was very surprised that I was a foreigner. I have no accent. But oh well. His loss.

MisterPX
December 19, 2006, 03:00 PM
Your delay has nothin to do with the type of proof of residency you use, as the ATF just asks if you have any.

TheBigBulgarian
December 19, 2006, 03:21 PM
According to the seller who explained it to me it does.

The ATF employee does ask exactly what type of proof of residence the buyer has.

The seller does write down what type of proof he saw, and the company name on the bill, statement.

On the transfer form it does say Utility bills.

When I had credit card statements the ATF employee said they will call back.

When I had utility bills the check was completed over the phone.

I think it does make a difference if you have the required documentation.


MisterPX are you speaking from personal expirience?

You have every right to differ, I am just sharing my personal exoirience.

MD_Willington
December 19, 2006, 03:37 PM
I'm a perminent resident of WA state, have a green card, lived here for 7 years...
...but...
You must obtain a Alien Firearms License every 5 years in WA state regardless if you are immigrant or non-immigrant and wish to purchase or retain firearms...

So in 2007 I will need to get a brand new, not renewed, AFL.

Jump through the hoops and you can play here.

Bunkerbuster
December 26, 2006, 02:27 PM
As they said on the above, I would tell your co-worker to double check with BATF prior to the purchase.

Just past 10 years, firearm purchase law changed a lot.

I remember even some of my school friends who had student visa purchasing pistols from sporting good stores. Now, ppl with student visa cannot purchase.

JCF
December 26, 2006, 03:53 PM
Your friend may also need to demonstrate state residency at the time of the NCIS check.

The ATF defines state residency, for permanent resident aliens, as 90 consecutive days of residence in state prior to the date of purchase, as evidenced by a utility or land-line telephone bill (not car insurance, cell phone, etc) in the purchaser's name, and matching his/her address.

Although the ATF does not officially require it, I have seen several occasions, here in Texas, where it was requested of TX DL-holding US citizens recently relocated in-state.

Here, in my part of Texas, it is also typical for the NCIS authorization to be "delayed" for permanent resident aliens.

MikeH
December 26, 2006, 05:47 PM
Here, in my part of Texas, it is also typical for the NCIS authorization to be "delayed" for permanent resident aliens.

Had that happen to me in MD on one of my rifle purchases. When the verdict came back, it was just about having the gunshop make sure I can provide proof for 90 days worth of residency. :cuss:

MD_Willington
December 27, 2006, 11:28 AM
Even with a CPL I have a 2 day wait on pistols...Weird laws but I have to follow them.

MisterPX
December 27, 2006, 05:47 PM
Bulgarian, yes, personal experience. Bank statements, 1.5 hr delay, utility bills, 1.5 hr delay, became a citizen... you guessed it, 1.5 hr delay.

On the bright side, one of my freinds has several NFA items to his name, and he gets delayed for days!!

archerben
January 5, 2007, 01:22 PM
I didn't realize so many would be interested in what I found, so I didn't post it or revisit this post since. Sorry, I didn't mean to leave you guys hanging in the dark. Here is a link to what I found on the ATF's website:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b13

Here is the text:

(B13) May aliens legally in the United States buy firearms?[Back]

An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing in that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the purchase. An alien acquiring firearms from a licensee is required to prove both his identity, by presenting a government-issued photo identification, and his residency with substantiating documentation showing that he has resided in the State continuously for the 90-day period prior to the purchase. Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills, lease agreements, credit card statements, and pay stubs from the purchaser’s place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.

See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921, 922(b)(3), (d) and (g), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.99(a)]

AndyC
January 5, 2007, 01:32 PM
What that ATF thing doesn't specify is that you need to be a permanent resident ie. Green Card - thanks to that misleading info, I went ahead an ordered an FN-FAL upper receiver which arrived at my friendly funstore.

I was "delayed" for 3 days and was then told that I had been turned down - and no reasons why were given. After multiple phonecalls to various agencies (FBI, ICE, etc) to try and sort it out, I was given a very broad hint that it has to do with the fact that I'm still waiting for my Green Card.

hagar
January 5, 2007, 02:00 PM
Andy, I don't know if TX has a general hunting license, as most of the state is privately owned, or huntclubs like here in SC. If they do, join a huntclub, get a license, go back with that and be adamant that you want to take your FAL hunting! Otherwise, can your American wife purchse it for you as a gift? I'm still a permanent resident after 22 years here in the US, and the one thing that annoys me is that I cannot order from the CMP, and my freaking wife will not go and shoot a CMP event so she can order some Garands!

MisterPX
January 5, 2007, 05:47 PM
I'm still a permanent resident after 22 years here in the US, and the one thing that annoys me is that I cannot order from the CMP, and my freaking wife will not go and shoot a CMP event so she can order some Garands!

***!
It's good that the CMP won't sell to you, or that your wife isn't eligible. Maybe let the CMP be some motivation and become a cit. What's the matter, got money for guns, but no $400 to become a citizen?

MikeH
January 5, 2007, 06:20 PM
MisterPX, as a newly naturalized US citizen, I can tell you that permanent residents pay the same taxes, but have less rights compared to citizens. The only advantage I can think of is that PRs can't be called for jury duty. Perhaps we should not take it negatively right away.

Peace ...

Blakenzy
January 5, 2007, 11:41 PM
Your rights are based on where you live. If you [legally]live within a state you pretty much have the exact rights as a US citizen, except you can't participate in federal elections.

As a US citizen living abroad (which is my case), you pretty much have as few rights as a foreign tourist: can't purchase firearms, can't vote, at least not until you re-establish your residence within one of the 50 states for a lenght of time. If you only come back to visit for a short period you are regarded as an outsider by all means. And that's even if you continue to pay federal taxes (taxation without representation?).

Limeyfellow
January 6, 2007, 01:02 AM
MisterPX, as a newly naturalized US citizen, I can tell you that permanent residents pay the same taxes, but have less rights compared to citizens. The only advantage I can think of is that PRs can't be called for jury duty. Perhaps we should not take it negatively right away.

Thats about right. No vote, no jury duty, can be called up for the draft (my draft registration card arrived 5 months before my temporary 2 year greencard did). The requirement to carry your greencard with you whereever you go to present ID. A few other rules are tucked in quietly.

On the good side we should be eligible for assistance from a consul officer from our country's embassy should we get arrested. Also many countries have a social security agreement so work done in a foreign country is eligable for our pensions.

Citizenship either means you have to rely on America to do everything to evacuate you, in emergency siturations or if you are dual citizenship neither country will come to your assistance. Other than that you get full rights in the country.

foob
January 6, 2007, 03:30 AM
Some of you guys mentioned you need a green card. You don't.

From ATF website:
May nonimmigrant aliens legally in the United States purchase or possess firearms and ammunition while in the United States?

Nonimmigrant aliens generally are prohibited from possessing or receiving (purchasing) firearms and ammunition in the United States.

There are exceptions to this general prohibition. The exceptions are as follows:

1. nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid (unexpired) hunting license or permit lawfully issued by a State in the United States;

2. nonimmigrant aliens entering the United States to participate in a competitive target shooting event or to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show sponsored by a national, State, or local firearms trade organization devoted to the collection, competitive use or other sporting use of firearms;

3. certain diplomats, if the firearms are for official duties;

4. officials of foreign governments, if the firearms are for official duties, or distinguished foreign visitors so designated by the U.S. State Department;

5. foreign law enforcement officers of friendly foreign governments entering the United States on official law enforcement business; and

6. persons who have received a waiver from the prohibition from the U.S. Attorney General.

Significantly, even if a nonimmigrant alien falls within one of these exceptions, the nonimmigrant alien CANNOT purchase a firearm from a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) unless he or she (1) has an alien number or admission number from the Department of Homeland Security (formerly the Immigration and Naturalization Service) AND (2) can provide the FFL with documentation showing that he or she has resided in a State within the United States for 90 consecutive days immediately prior to the firearms transaction.

Exception 1 is not hard to obtain.

Red Label
January 6, 2007, 09:13 AM
As a strong second ammendment supporter I dislike almost all gun laws. I like being able to go to a gun show in my state and buy anything I want without my rights being infringed upon. The one thing that has caught my attention however is that with the huge influx of "illegals", they are also showing up at the shows and buying anything they can get their hands on. No background checks or anything of the kind. I've always liked the garage sale atmosphere at the gun shows and I don't want any more laws. Maybe just a check of citizenship at the door.

In my area we have had a huge jump in gang activity that used to not exist at all and it bothers me that they could be getting their guns at the gun show:cuss:

I realize this is a very slippery slope that has been forced upon us by a government that has waited too long to do anything about illegal immigration! I still welcome anyone who plays by the rules but the illegals are hurting everyone!!!

hagar
January 6, 2007, 10:45 PM
I have my own reasons for not applying for US citizenship. The way medical care is sky rocketing in this country is probably my biggest concern. My wife is US born, and me keeping my South African citizenship might give us more options when we retire. On the other hand, SA might be a third world hellhole in another 15 years, it is fast moving towards it, but I'll have to take my chances. It will be much cheaper to retire there, and my wife LOVES the place. More than I do.

I have another question. I have a SC CCW, but still need to provide proof of residence when I buy a firearm, no NICS check. No problem, own a house here for the last 3 1/2 years. I have bought firearms out of state before from a dealer, but it was 8 or more years ago, the laws have changed since. There is a guy selling a rifle in NC that I want to buy. Obviously I cannot buy it from him personally, but I wonder if I can do the transfer through a NC dealer, or can you only do it in your home state if you are a permanent resident? I then assume if I cannot buy it in NC, that he can bring the rifle to SC and do the transfer through a SC dealer?

MisterPX
January 7, 2007, 10:26 AM
I know what PRA's can do, you guys should read the first page ;) .


I'm not gonna post what I had written, it'd probably get this thread shut down.

JCF
January 7, 2007, 12:41 PM
:barf:



I know what PRA's can do, you guys should read the first page .


I'm not gonna post what I had written, it'd probably get this thread shut down.

AndyC
January 7, 2007, 07:23 PM
Andy, I don't know if TX has a general hunting license, as most of the state is privately owned, or huntclubs like here in SC. If they do, join a huntclub, get a license, go back with that and be adamant that you want to take your FAL hunting! Otherwise, can your American wife purchse it for you as a gift? I'm still a permanent resident after 22 years here in the US, and the one thing that annoys me is that I cannot order from the CMP, and my freaking wife will not go and shoot a CMP event so she can order some Garands!
Hey, Hagar - I didn't know you lurk over on this forum as well - good to see you :-)

I have a hunting & fishing license - something called the Super Combo, whatever that means, but as for the hunting club suggestion - thanks, I'll look into that. The wife can't buy the FAL-receiver for me as the guys at my FFL already know that it's for me (came from Court in FL) and having her attempt to do so would be considered a straw-purchase, which I definitely don't want to do.

Some of you guys mentioned you need a green card. You don't.

From ATF website:
Quote:May nonimmigrant aliens legally in the United States purchase or possess firearms and ammunition while in the United States?

Nonimmigrant aliens generally are prohibited from possessing or receiving (purchasing) firearms and ammunition in the United States.

There are exceptions to this general prohibition. The exceptions are as follows:

1. nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid (unexpired) hunting license or permit lawfully issued by a State in the United States;

...

Thanks, foob, but I'm an immigrant alien, not a nonimmigrant - from my understanding, it's a pretty huge difference :-(

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