Some long overdue common sense for firearm owners.


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wacki
December 19, 2006, 08:51 PM
EDIT: ok I agree this is a poorly worded title. This is not exactly about common sense but information that's not exactly well organized.

I've seen a ton of news stories of firearm mistakes posted on this forum. The Mexican carry guy that shot himself twice. The bad holster in the backpack that paralyzed a woman. There is no excuse for that. And I know I've seen a lot of people mishandle firearms. Heck last week somebody I barely knew handed me a gun without informing me that the magazine was full or checking to see if I knew proper firearm safety. Many of these incidents could easily be avoided if people were simply better informed. A safety pamphlet/CD was handed out with each firearm might be better. A CD/book would certainly be a far more cost effective way of distributing the information and it would certainly remove any privacy concerns. Everyone here seems to insist on taking a self defense class anyway.

Why doesn't anyone push the most common sense form gun control of all? I mean I see no reason why some gun safety CD shouldn't be attached to each firearm sold. The NRA and gun companies should be doing this on a voluntary basis anyway. They can even use it as an easy way to slip in some gun facts to fight the misinformation campaign by anti's. And for every accident we avoid, that just makes us look that much better.

Cold Steel sends me free DVD's to show off their knives. So the gun companies should have no problems doing it. Heck gun companies can spend 1/2 of the DVD talking up their company and the other 1/2 of the DVD as part of a standardized NRA/THR sponsored safety/anti-anti course. That would save on costs for sure. I mean gun companies hand out catalogs anyway. Money is not the issue.

A lot of gun owners don't know proper gun safety. And almost all gun owners don't understand how badly the gun control advocates skew the statistics. I certainly didn't before I came here. It's time to fix that.

EDIT II: not talking legislation. Just a volunteer "get the information out" project.

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Don't Tread On Me
December 19, 2006, 08:55 PM
Thanks for advocating gun control.


:barf:

ChefJeff1
December 19, 2006, 08:56 PM
Good idea. A buddy of mine came by the other night to show me his new and first postil. When he was done waving it around he handed it to me with out showing me that it was unloaded and it had a loaded mag. I scolded him and said you hand a pistol to me with the slide locked back and mag dropped.

gulogulo1970
December 19, 2006, 08:57 PM
Good idea, but most new guns I've ever bought have the four rules and gun safety included within the manual. If you are not going to read the book you probably will chunk the cd like it was from AOL.

wacki
December 19, 2006, 08:59 PM
Thanks for advocating gun control.

Did you understand anything I said? Apparently not. This is not a law. Information is on our side and we are missing a very effective method of spreading information to the right people. I mean a version of this PDF could be attached to the DVD:

http://www.gunfacts.info/

That would be a very powerful method of fighting gun control. More people will get the information if it's in video format though.

Bentonville
December 19, 2006, 09:02 PM
I have taught all three of my sons how to drive. I did it carefully and with great patience and lots of opportunities to get behind the wheel. I taught how to check the fluids and air pressure in the tires. One gets behind the wheel and drives like there is no tomorrow with no thought about fluids. In fact, I just replaced the engine of our little Civic because the temp. gauge showed hot but he didn't notice until the steam poured out from under the hood and the aluminum block had warped. The other is sensible and keeps his oil changed. My third is a work in progress. Same with firearms. No matter how much training a person gets, a fool is a fool. It won't hurt to give pamphlets or training CD's with the gun locks. It's not really gun control, is it?

wacki
December 19, 2006, 09:02 PM
Also, the less likely people are to abuse firearms the less likely the news gets to print stuff like this:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=242056&highlight=beauty

ArfinGreebly
December 19, 2006, 09:11 PM
I'd be entirely okay with an instructional video on CD or DVD.

You buy your new rifle or pistol.

You get home, and in the box with it is a disk that has on it
1) the manual for that piece, with parts list, in PDF,
2) the company's catalog in PDF,
3) a video demonstrating proper shooting technique, prefaced by THE 4 RULES,
4) a video demonstrating proper cleaning and maintenance, including any adjustments, and THE 4 RULES,
5) for hunters, advice on field dressing the various things one hunts,
6) the addresses and phone numbers for those outfits that do professional training.

This would, in fact, be a serious marketing tool.

Alternatively, if it's not packaged with the weapon itself, it should be sent to the customer in response to receiving the warranty paperwork.

And, failing that, it should at least be something you can order for $10 from the manufacturer.

A DVD can hold an indecent amount of material, so a single DVD could have the info for several different weapons types.

I'd pay money for that.

wacki
December 19, 2006, 09:15 PM
ArfinGreebly,

Are you aware that buckets kill more children under 5 each year than firearms? Are you aware that swimming pools are 100 time more dangerous than accidental shootings? Don't you think this kind of info would be important to add on the DVD? Lets not forget what the NRA and other organizations have to say. I mean there is so much that could be done it's not even funny. Also, $10 is way too high. The major companies should come to a gentlemens agreement and just increase their cost by 20 cents and slap on the DVD. It's good for business.

Mannlicher
December 19, 2006, 09:18 PM
Wacki, if you have to TELL folks what common sense is, they won't understand it. Trust me on this.

wacki
December 19, 2006, 09:23 PM
Wacki, if you have to TELL folks what common sense is, they won't understand it. Trust me on this.

Responses like this make me angry. Reading news stories about the dangers of Mexican carry certainly raised my awareness. The dangers of a cheap holsters did as well. Lets not forget this:

http://www.gunfacts.info/

But if 100 pages of statistics and lab results are common sense then you are a much better man than I. I guess all of the moderators that strongly recommend self defense courses are just stupid morons too.

Gbro
December 19, 2006, 09:24 PM
Cheffjeff,
you scolded the wrong one.
You should have scolded yourself. We don't alow anyone to wave any kind of firearm around, EVER.
We never accept a firearm from another without it first being opened, With the exception of someone who, it is obviouse dosn't know JACK @#%@ about what they are doing.
The other poster is right. Safety information accompanys all new guns and information on the safe use of many guns is avalible through the manufactures. Most of them have it avalible on the web.
Furthermore, if your firearms is dated to some exstent. it is a good idea to obtain a current owners manual for that model. Example, the RUGER SINGLE SIX. The owners manual that came with this pistol is only about 6 pages of information, It dosn't even exsplane how or when to "decock" that gun, it is just taken for granted that one would know how,or, Shoot it. The current manual is about 20 pages. Granted most of the info is corvering the ass of the manufacture, but still has a lot of merit.

What it comes down to is, Attitude, If someone has the right attitude about Gun safety, he will study and take every class avalible to expand his knowedge.
Also there is a web site www.biggerhammer.net that has a great library of owners manuals for guns, many that are no longer made. Check it out.

Gbro

wacki
December 19, 2006, 09:31 PM
What it comes down to is, Attitude, If someone has the right attitude about Gun safety, he will study and take every class avalible to expand his knowedge.

No, what it comes down to is what the average person will do. And the average person will not spend countless hours on THR learning about guns. Make the information cheap. Make it concise. And make it easy to access. Anything less is not the wisest of decisions IMO.

And no I don't consider online PDF's to be easy. Nobody reads the instructions anyway. Lots of people have watched my cold steel DVD's though.

MrDig
December 19, 2006, 09:35 PM
unfortunately it applies

Sistema1927
December 19, 2006, 09:41 PM
Nice thought, but even if you could make something idiot proof they would just go out and build a better idiot.

bthest86
December 19, 2006, 09:54 PM
Ever gun I've bought comes with basic saftey rules. If someone doesn't read the manual then what makes you think they'll take the time to instal that CD?

The High School I went to taught proper firearm handling and the 4 rules as part of health class. Maybe such classes should be mandatory in all schools.

pcosmar
December 19, 2006, 10:01 PM
They put signs under the hood of cars that say,"don't atempt to change fan belt with the engine running." :what:
I think education should start early, right after potty training. Though some may never be helped. Some people just have to stick there fingers in the fan.

I learned young, and have never touched a weapon that I did not check myself, immediately.

jeepmor
December 19, 2006, 10:03 PM
Heck last week somebody handed me a gun without informing me that the magazine was full.
And you checked it yourself right, to confirm it? Once the gun is in your hands, it is your duty to check it, don't blame your friend, blame yourself. If the gun goes off in your hands, the negligence is also squarely on your shoulders.

A safety pamphlet/CD was handed out with each firearm might be better.
Ever read the owners manual? It's all there. ALL mfr's have their owners manuals online for easy download.

Why doesn't anyone push the most common sense form gun control of all?
The four rules are enough, if you don't follow them, that's your fault, not ours. Common sense tells me that the government wants my guns out of my hands so they can more easily control me, any gun control is violation of the US constitution, but they vote it in anyway.

A lot of gun owners don't know proper gun safety.
Correction - a lot of gun owners don't PRACTICE proper gun safety.

Make the information cheap.
A quick google will show you that it's out there ALREADY, and it's FREE. Quit thinking a DVD or CD is going to magically make people safe and quit putting so much damn plastic in the landfill. Paper is recyclable, .pdf files are deleteable without any solid waste left behind.

It's ALL out there, go look for it and quit asking someone else to do it for you....sheesh. Leave that to the whiny, emotionally motivated, liberals and take some accountability for your own safety and role model for others. Like the people trying to ban the .50 caliber because it's a cannon and can shoot down planes. Do they provide any statistics to support how this gun has been used by ne'erdowells?

No, they are simply afraid of it because it's incredibly powerful, nothing more. It's like telling someone not to drive a sports car when it's really none of your damn business. If they can afford the payments, fuel and insurance, it's no business of yours or mine to tell them otherwise. It's simply not.

Here at my employer we have a mantra for this. See a problem, own a problem. Simple statement, but very powerful.

Is it just me, or does it seem that the people asking for common sense gun control are the same people who are lacking it themselves; and simply looking for someone to spoon feed them so they don't have to exert any effort on their own?

Do you really trust the government so much that you think they won't completely FUBAR it like damn near everything else they touch?


jeepmor

rbernie
December 19, 2006, 10:20 PM
Ruger prints their address and an offer for a free manual on the side of every barrel they churn out, and yet it does little good other than provide an additional element to a corporate liability shield.

Wacki - it's a noble idea. It's really nice. But it won't likely have much impact because those that won't read the free lit that is currently available aren't likely to read it in PDF (or any other distribution) format.

You want to effect a change in this sort of thing? Volunteer to go into your local elementary schools and give an Eddie Eagle seminar. Do it often. Preach to those who are (by virtue of their age) still willing to listen.

But don't think that you can educate those who simply can't be bothered to read and think.

wacki
December 19, 2006, 10:25 PM
A quick google will show you that it's out there ALREADY, and it's FREE.

My gun didn't come with any safety facts regarding mexican carry or having a good holster. It didn't come with a link to gunfact.info. It didn't come with a bunch of statistics.

Quit thinking a DVD or CD is going to magically make people safe and quit putting so much damn plastic in the landfill.

Well in all honestly video reaches far more people than PDF. The fact that the American populace and mass media tends to be rather clueless when it comes to stuff that was considered settled within the scientific community decades ago should make this evident. Sorry, but people are far more likely to watch the discovery channel, the history channel, etc than read a book. It's not about stupidity. It's about the amount of effort required. And a video requires almost zero effort.

It's ALL out there, go look for it and quit asking someone else to do it for you....sheesh.

Check my signature. My blog is only a week old but it should be pretty clear this is not about me.

In all honesty threads like this make me think guns deserve to be banned. There is a lot of resistance in this thread to educating the public. I wonder how many insults this guy:

http://www.gunfacts.info/

had when he decided to start on his pdf. I wonder how many insults penn & teller had when they decided to work on their video about gun control. Those two forms of information are a really good start but they certainly could be improved upon. In all honesty this kind of resistance to informing the public makes me sick.

I mean it took me over 600 posts on various gun forums before I found out about this:

http://www.gunfacts.info/

That's not right. I read a lot about gun statistics and there is a lot of really good information that simply isn't organized and disseminated very well. Way too many people in this forum want it to stay that way.

Fly320s
December 19, 2006, 10:28 PM
As long as the CD/DVD is not mandated by law, I see no reason to oppose the idea. It is a good marketing idea after all.

In fact, I like the idea. Some people who buy guns are gun nuts, like me. And yes, I do read the manual that came with my new gun. I would very much like to have a CD or DVD with extra information about my new gun, it's parts, it's care and feeding, tips and tricks, and printable coupons towards future purchases. In fact, I'm one of those guys who actually orders the manufacturer's new catalogs.

Granted, many people, if not most people, will not read the manual. Nor will they seek more information or training on guns. There's not much we can do about those people.

Maybe the cost to produce and distribute a relatively small numder of CDs is too high. Or maybe not enough people have access to a CD/DVD player. Either way, a paper manual will need to be included with the gun. But if the NRA were to produce such a CD and distribute it freely to every manufacturer or dealer who wanted it, on the condition that the CDs must be distributed with the purchase of a firearm, then I think the plan could work. The buyer could get the knowledge if he chooses, and the NRA could get more members.

No harm in trying.

orionengnr
December 19, 2006, 10:41 PM
No, what it comes down to is what the average person will do. And the average person will not spend countless hours on THR learning about guns. Make the information cheap. Make it concise. And make it easy to access. Anything less is not the wisest of decisions IMO.

I have to ask how long you have been around firearms. EVERY new gun comes with a NAUSEATINGLY complete owners manual. SAFETY is discussed for pages upon pages, always IN RED TEXT and usually in BOLD text and sometimes in italics.

How many people actually read it? Not many, from the posts here. I know for a fact that Ruger offers owner's manuals as a .pdf download, and others likely do the same.

Cheap? Easy to access? Yup.

Maybe we should pass a law that says that every buyer must read and understand the owner's manual... Yeah, that will work... :)

Hey, my four Paras each came with a VHS tape instead of a printed manual. When I sold each, it went with a VHS tape....still in the wrapper. :rolleyes:

You cannot legislate common sense, or common decency, or manners, or much of anything. We have (as a society) been vacillating between legislating "morality" on the individual level (think WOSD, smoking) and blaming society for everything, thereby abdicating any personal responsibility for misdeeds (example too numerous to mention)... :barf:

Molon Labe
December 19, 2006, 10:49 PM
last week somebody handed me a gun without informing me that the magazine was full.
So what?

When someone hands you a gun, it doesn't matter what condition the gun is in. Why? Two reasons:

1. You should always handle a firearm as if it were loaded.

2. Whenever someone hands you a firearm, you should immediately check the chamber and determine its condition.

When I teach my students about firearm safety, I tell them, "If someone hands you a firearm, never ask if the gun or magazine is loaded. It is a dumb question. Why? Because it's irrelevant. Whenever someone hands you a firearm, you should assume it's loaded, and then immediately check the chamber and determine its condition."

wacki
December 19, 2006, 10:53 PM
Molon Labe said:
So what?

Are you saying we should assume that every person we hand a gun to knows exactly how to handle a gun? Are you saying there is no need to ask them whether or not they know firearm safety when we give them a loaded weapon?

It certainly appears that way.

When I teach my students about firearm safety ....

:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

wacki
December 19, 2006, 10:55 PM
orionengnr said:

Hey, my four Paras each came with a VHS tape instead of a printed manual. When I sold each, it went with a VHS tape....still in the wrapper.

You cannot legislate common sense,

:scrutiny:

I agree.

ceetee
December 19, 2006, 10:55 PM
Heck, my riding lawnmower came with a manual and a cute little VHS tape showing how to level the blades, and how to tell if a hill is too steep to mow on...

I think it's a good idea. It would be a good first step toward changing the connotation of the phrase "gun control". Make it so "gun control" doesn't mean banning guns, it means being able to call your flyers. Depending on the quality of such a DVD, I'd gladly lend it out to friends at work that either own guns, but have never taken any kind of marksmanship course, or friends that have had no experience with guns at all.

I'd shy away from letting the NRA have too much input. The last thing a beginner needs is a rant on 2A issues. Let them stick to the safety and use aspects. I can see a basic format in two parts. First, a generic video that covers safety, and simple handling techniques, applicable for all firearms. Then the manufacturer's video that covers the parts of a specific gun. That half would cover loading an dunloading, fieldstripping, cleaning, and basic adjustments any gun owner should be able to do. As has already been pointed out, one DVD can hold an insane amount of material. A manufacturer like Springfield or Taurus could easily make one DVD that would hold all the videos for all of their respective models.

SoCalShooter
December 19, 2006, 10:57 PM
Gun control is not about the guns its all about control. There is no common sense in gun control.

Molon Labe
December 19, 2006, 11:19 PM
Are you saying we should assume that every person we hand a gun to knows exactly how to handle a gun? Are you saying there is no need to ask them whether or not they know firearm safety when we give them a loaded weapon?

It certainly appears that way.No. Is that what I said?

I am referring to the perspective of the person receiving the firearm, not the person giving the firearm.

If you're a member of the gun culture, a lot of people are going to be handing you a lot of guns. Are you going to berate every person who hands you a loaded gun, or who doesn't inform you of the gun's condition? :rolleyes: I should hope not. Why? Because when someone hands you a gun, any information they give you concerning the condition of the gun should not be trusted. When someone hands you a gun you're supposed to check it yourself.

If you have a ND because the gun that was handed to you was loaded, "But... but... the guy who gave me the gun said it was unloaded!!" is not an excuse you can use. You should have checked it.

So back to the OP... he was upset because the guy handing him the gun didn't tell him the magazine was loaded. Should the guy have told him the magazine was loaded? Certainly - that's what I do when I hand someone a gun. But at the same time, it ultimately doesn't matter, since the person receiving the gun must check the condition of the gun himself. My original point is that the OP should not be upset at the person for omitting the information about the loaded magazine, since it ultimately doesn't matter.

And dude, why the rolly-eyes? I'm an NRA-certified rifle instructor. Got a problem with that?

grimjaw
December 19, 2006, 11:33 PM
NEW YORK, NY, Associated Press - The case of John Q. Smith proceeded today in state court. Mr Smith is sueing Boom Boom Firearms for their failure to provide him with safety education material on video, causing him to shoot himself in the foot. Mr Smith, illiterate, could not read the manual . . . </sarcasm>

There's a saying from some car safety engineers that comes to mind when I read a thread like this. I'm paraphrasing here:

"We can design the safest, most reliable restraint device in the world, and the customer will try to wear it around his neck."

They try to make training easier for us at work regarding the dangers of NUCLEAR WASTE. You know what? I still don't want to watch them. I work near the waste cleanup site, but so do the people at the gas station 100 yards away and they don't get the training.

I'm sure there are some gun owners that don't own computers and have no use for a CD/DVD.

I don't own a television, and have no use for a VHS tape.

I don't have a problem with a manufacturer that does what you suggest in your OP: include some kind of safety training education with their product. I don't want to pay extra for it, though. I don't want it to be mandated by legislation. Will you require that the CD/DVD go with the firearm when it's sold? What happens when optical disks are obsolete? Will the firearm have to be melted down?

It doesn't matter what you devise, the human race will ingeniously come up with another way to be stupid.

wacki, what's really bugging you? I've seen you advocate some kind of restriction or limitation on ownership in several threads now. You've all but called the forum members Luddites because they don't agree with you. Why do you care if some of us don't agree? If you think it's a good idea, do it! Don't wait for the horse to come drink, and don't think that insulting the horse will do anything other than confuse the horse and make one resemble something other than his front end.

By the way, McDonald's coffee? It's hot. I know because it says so at the drive through window.

jm

wacki
December 19, 2006, 11:39 PM
No. Is that what I said?

explicitly no. Implicitly? Well what else could "so what?" mean?. The gun was in a restaurant so I wasn't expecting it to be ready to go.

If you're a member of the gun culture, a lot of people are going to be handing you a lot of guns.

True. I never said otherwise.

If you're a member of the gun culture, a lot of people are going to be handing you a lot of guns. Are you going to berate every person who hands you a loaded gun, or who doesn't inform you of the gun’s condition? I should hope not. Why? Because when someone hands you a gun, any information they give you concerning the condition of the gun should not be trusted. When someone hands you a gun you're supposed to check it yourself.

If you have a ND because the gun that was handed to you was loaded, "The guy who gave me the gun said it was unloaded!!" is not an excuse you can use. You should have checked it.

And the fault is back on me. We are not talking about me. I know how to handle guns. We are talking about him. I would think it would be common sense to make sure the person I hand a gun knows how to handle it. I would not hand my mom (who has never shot a weapon) or a stranger a loaded gun without making sure they knew how to handle it.

And dude, why the rolly-eyes? I'm an NRA-certified rifle instructor. Got a problem with that?

Well I would certainly hope that any safety instructor, NRA or otherwise, knows the importance of making sure the person one hands a loaded weapon to knows how to properly handle it. It would appear that is not the case.

Green Lantern
December 19, 2006, 11:46 PM
Shoot, Molon Labe beat me to it:

Heck last week somebody I barely knew handed me a gun without informing me that the magazine was full.

I was always taught that a gun is always loaded, until you verify that it is not...

wacki
December 19, 2006, 11:46 PM
wacki, what's really bugging you? I've seen you advocate some kind of restriction or limitation on ownership in several threads now.

Several threads? How about just the convicted-violent-rapists/murders thread. That is the only thread I've discussed any kind of restrictions on this forum. And even with those people I said I was open to reinstating firearm rights under certain conditions. You are painting me into a corner in which I don't belong. I think all states should have concealed carry, suppressors, high-cap mags, etc.

I don't want it to be mandated by legislation.
Neither do I. I am not advocating a law here. Just advocating a way to get poorly organized information out to the masses. This isn't just about safety. And yes information is all freely available but it really is poorly organized.

It doesn't matter what you devise, the human race will ingeniously come up with another way to be stupid.

Again, you can't help the stupid. I don't care about the stupid. But you can make information easier to access and avoid all sorts of problems. And to be honest not very many people know about gunfacts.info.

f4t9r
December 20, 2006, 12:11 AM
The rules are in every manual and dealers here go over gun safety and operation of firearm before you leave the shop. Thats good enough for me !!!!
Open the case of some manufactures and the safety rules are staring you in the face one more time. You can not take everything someone says personal because it does not agree with your point of view. People give thier thoughts and ideas here and one does not have to quote and respond to everything said while trying to push thier idea down our throats.
A CD is a good idea , leave it at that.

TCB in TN
December 20, 2006, 12:29 AM
A little thing like personal responsibility, ring a bell. We need less reliance "safety manuals" and more reliance on our selves. I have nothing against safety information being included voluntarily by the mfg, but the last thing we need is more mandates for anything related to firearms.:banghead:

hqmhqm
December 20, 2006, 12:29 AM
I think a video DVD is a good idea. I bought a new kind of harness for our dog, and it came with an instructional video. I would not have known how to use it very well without a video demonstration.

Some people get information from a printed manual, but others get more information from a movie.

I dislike a number of the know-it-all responses in this thread where everyone assumes they are the worlds expert in all things firearms related, the reincarnation of John Moses Browning himself. Everyone's a Monday morning quarterback when some ND incident is reported.

Yet, everyone of us can stand to learn some more about their firearms. And if you learn about it in several different ways, you really understand it. If you have just one way of understanding the system, you don't really understand it. That is where I think so many of the ND issues come from.

hso
December 20, 2006, 12:56 AM
Not everyone has a computer or DVD player.:rolleyes:

Every new gun I've bought had a manual and the first several pages are dedicated to safe gun handling.

I'll concede that morons that won't read a manual might watch a DVD.

Justin
December 20, 2006, 01:16 AM
I have no problem with the inclusion of a DVD or multimedia disk with a new firearm. Some companies already do. Which, to my mind, hardly makes the idea "overdue."

Just don't expect everyone to watch it. After all, the US is the most technologically advanced nation to ever exist, with information on nearly any topic retrievable in under a second, yet there are still plenty of ignorant people out there.

As for handing someone a weapon, the polite thing to do is to remove the magazine and lock the action open before handing it to them.

If you don't do this, start. If someone hands you a weapon without doing it, gently point out that making the weapon safe is the courteous thing to do.

BullfrogKen
December 20, 2006, 02:11 AM
wacki, regardless of the what anyone thinks of the political arm of the NRA, they have been at the forefront of disseminating safe gun handling to the public for longer than you have been alive. We can't hold someone's hand. I'm glad you've come to the realization that this is necessary, but lots of folks have worked their entire lives doing this for others, volunteering time, given of personal income, etc. to do this.


wacki said: Face the facts. A lot of gun owners don't know proper gun safety. And almost all gun owners don't understand how badly the gun control advocates skew the statistics. I certainly didn't before I came here. It's time to fix that.

Ok, so, get involved. Go get NRA certified and join the ranks of teaching safe gun handling to others.


Personally, I don't really like being preached to by a recent entrant to guns about how we somehow failed you. This information is out there. Resources to help you find places and resources to learn safe gun handling are not hard to find at all.

Let's come down off that podium for a minute. If you don't know how to safely handle a gun, and now realize it, what have you done about it? Have you, yourself, signed up for a safety class? Are you supporting those guys, that very often offer these classes for a nominal fee, or even free, by taking one of those classes yourself?

wacki said: I read a lot about gun statistics and there is a lot of really good information that simply isn't organized and disseminated very well. Way too many people in this forum want it to stay that way.

We want to keep people uneducated and ignorant? Where is this coming from? Chill out a little. This isn't the way to sway folks and make friends.

ReadyontheRight
December 20, 2006, 02:36 AM
Wow.

So those of you ripping on wacki's idea of providing pro-RKBA information and safety training in a DVD format along with guns REALLY think that we don't need to work on more PR and better communications to promote RKBA?

A few websites and training manuals are all we need to fight the anti-gun juggernaut? HA!

We NEED ideas like this. What do you gain by shooting him down?

He's not advocating MANDATORY training, and I'm sure he realizes that 80%+ will not even open the CD, but the 20%- that DO will get a focused, pro-RKBA, pro-gun-safety message.

What in the heck is wrong with that?

protolith
December 20, 2006, 02:37 AM
I would support legislation that REQUIRES that the 4 rules be taught to ALL grade school children.

As for other "Common Sense" bits of knowledge, if you don't know them, They aren't common sense... If more of the energy that is spent on gun control in the name of safety is spent on proper education, then fewer people will have NDs for lack of understanding safe carry practices or the ability to evaluate a safe holster.

"The gun was in a restaurant so I wasn't expecting it to be ready to go."

I can think of far more reasons to have a loaded gun in a restaurant than an empty one.

wacki
December 20, 2006, 02:40 AM
Let's come down off that podium for a minute. If you don't know how to safely handle a gun, and now realize it, what have you done about it?

I had some gun training through ROTC and at the local skeet/trap club. I'm confident with rifles but I'll admit when I read stories about mexican carry I was a bit shocked. I get a lot more out of reading other peoples real life mistakes than any class I took. If someone re-enacted the 30 or so most common gun mistakes I would think that would be an excellent safety video. Especially if they made sure the viewers understood these accidents really happened. Has anything like that ever been made? I certainly haven't heard of it.

We want to keep people uneducated and ignorant? Where is this coming from? Chill out a little. This isn't the way to sway folks and make friends.

You certainly aren't like that. I don't mean to step on everyones toes but there are no statistical pamphlets being handed out at my local gun club. There are no NRA fact sheets. Nobody there has heard of gunfacts.info. And when I post questions on this forum trying to figure out answers to arguments made by anti's about half the responses I get are:

"you can't reason with an anti"
"you can't teach common sense to morons"
and
"anti's are too scared to protect themselves"

and that seems like such a close minded point of view. But behavior like that makes me go "gee I wonder why" when people vote to ban guns in a certain district. And when the town council shuts down the sporting clay section of our local club I think "gee I wonder why". I mean no disrespect for those that have been fighting to defend the 2A for a very long time. I just think there are some potentially very powerful means of information dissemination that have never been explored before.

Eh... I have to read a paper and time is short. I'm done for the night.

Don't Tread On Me
December 20, 2006, 02:50 AM
Thanks for advocating gun control.

Did you understand anything I said? Apparently not. This is not a law. Information is on our side and we are missing a very effective method of spreading information to the right people.

Why doesn't anyone push the most common sense form gun control of all? I mean I see no reason why some gun safety CD shouldn't be attached to each firearm sold.


First of all, firearm makers voluntarily provided locks on pistols before the anti-gunners made it law. Despite the virtually 100% universal providing of gun locks with pistols, the anti's wanted it made LAW.


Second, providing something to someone doesn't mean squat. The DVD will go in the garbage the same way the instruction manual did. The same instruction manual that has safety information like clean the bore out so it doesn't kaboom. FACT is, someone negligent enough to cause such accidents is not the kind of person who will gain anything from a DVD, as there are already dozens of ways in which safety information is practically shoved down their throats. Safety information is engraved and stamped into firearms!!!

Third, someone has to foot the bill. I don't feel like paying more because someone else is an idiot. Now, a DVD doesn't cost much....but the slippery slope does apply, and the anti's dream is to make gun ownership cost prohibitive or to place standards (such as testing/licensing) in the way.


And for every accident we avoid, that just makes us look that much better.


The above quote is the most critical aspect of this entire thread, and why I am fundamentally against such an idea, far more so than the reasons I listed above.


I'm of the school of thought that the RKBA is my God given right. I don't give a damn how much death, destruction, ill, accidents, suffering or misuse is caused as a result of irresponsible people mishandling or abusing firearms. This will never, ever, ever be a justification or a reason for limiting or taking away my RKBA.


You may think so, and our society is biased against guns and the RKBA and that's what truly happens in practice, but I refuse to accept that. If I accept that, I'm playing their game. I'm going to change the way this country thinks by changing the way I think, and stop having an illogical bias toward the RKBA.


No one ever gets on TV or in the media and says "religion should be banned because of people like Jim Jones"....or "religion should be licensed or registered or approved prior to exercise thereof due to people like Jim Jones"....


No one says to ban free speech because someone was preaching some Aryan nation propaganda which results in the twisting of minds and results in the violent action against minorities. Guns didn't kill the Jews in the 1940's...an IDEA did. Speech was the vehicle by which ideas made it possible for 6 million people to be exterminated. No one advocates the banning of such language, speech or ideas in our country today. How's that for a logical comparison?


Why should the Second Amendment be any different? Why should I give a damn what someone thinks of "us"...whomever this "us" is? There is no "us" as in gunowners. There are only Americans with rights, and those who hate liberty.


The fundamental problem is that a bias against guns exists. All the factoids and clever slogans will not save us. The key is in getting people to understand that it is a fundamental human right, and rights are not negotiable. Rights are not subject to changes in weather. Punitive actions against my rights due to the abuse of others is simply NOT ACCEPTABLE in a free society.

Every day millions of Americans drive on the highways. Every day there are vehicular crimes, many of which results in deaths. Deaths that far outnumber firearm violence. Americans are willing to accept this death and maiming of tens of thousands every year as the "price of freedom"....but not so with firearms. Americans deal with neo-nazi trash, KKK, black panthers, eco-terrorists, NAMBLA and other scum and respect their freedom of speech, no matter how destructive, as "the price of freedom"....Well, the idiots who shoot themselves while trying to clean a gun - they are the "price of freedom"...


You people, time and time again here on THR are losing the RKBA debate by accepting the terms of the debate which the anti's frame from the start. You can call my views radical or not practical in appealing to the "middle"...but you'll never, ever win by conceding to the core beliefs of the anti's, the anti's who trap you with their national dialogs on the RKBA. These are the traps the antis set all the time.


Why do people fear making such TRUE and strong arguments for the RKBA? Do they fear that they will be viewed as irrational? LMAO! The liberal's views were viewed as irrational and insane years ago, but through persistence, they got what they wanted in society. If my views shock some moderates- GOOD. At least I got their attention. At least I put the seed of a different view in their mind. That's far better than the current mode of thinking which is the anti-gunners wanting to control guns, and the pro-gunners who agree on controlling guns less. What's the lowest common denominator? Each still results in gun control.


Look at Oleg's posters. He is the genius here. His vision for arguing the RKBA has been lost on THR. His posters are direct and strong. They make non-PC, in your face statements intended to provoke thought and questions. That is the proper response. He doesn't hide behind compromising for lesser gun-control. He doesn't have this idiotic, pro-state, pro-authority view of guns which many on THR do. It truly saddens me to see so many people (prominent members) proclaim themselves fighters for the RKBA on THR, yet they are espousing the very ideology of gun control. (not talking about you Wacki).


Sorry for going off on such a tangent. This isn't all related to some firearm safety DVD idea - but to a general set of ideas that are self-defeating to our cause.

wacki
December 20, 2006, 02:59 AM
Wow.

So those of you ripping on wacki's idea of providing pro-RKBA information and safety training in a DVD format along with guns REALLY think that we don't need to work on more PR and better communications to promote RKBA?

A few websites and training manuals are all we need to fight the anti-gun juggernaut? HA!


Exactly. Then again I'm sure all those gun owners in Cook County Chicago are happy with the performance of those websites. :scrutiny: :scrutiny:

BullfrogKen
December 20, 2006, 03:15 AM
OK. I have no idea what you are advocating at this point. What do you want here?

Responses and quips to anti-gun rhetoric?
Some sort of sensationalist video like that old driver's ed show "Blood in the Streets"?
A different medium for the typical gun owner's safety manual nearly every manufacturer has given out for free for at least a decade?
Some kind of concealed carry primer?


I don't get it. Your criticisms and wish lists are all over the place. Why is it the responsibility of your local gun club to provide you statistical pamphlets? Statistical pamphlets on what? It frankly sounds like you're calling for a video that dramatizes the injuries and deaths of ignorant gun handlers to persuade folks that its a good idea to not handle guns irresponsibly. That's pretty tasteless.


Have you even taken the opportunity to contact the NRA to ask about what they have, that anyone can get for free, to teach you about safe gun handling? No NRA fact sheets? Seriously . . . You have got to be kidding.


This rhetorict is starting to feel like sticking an ice cube on a newly drilled root canal.


Edit>>> I just took the opportunity to go back and thoroughly read everything said here, because some things I saw just weren't making sense and adding up.


wacki, Why are you and your friend passing around a loaded gun in a restaurant?

wacki said: And the fault is back on me. We are not talking about me. I know how to handle guns. We are talking about him. I would think it would be common sense to make sure the person I hand a gun knows how to handle it. I would not hand my mom (who has never shot a weapon) or a stranger a loaded gun without making sure they knew how to handle it.
Quote:
And dude, why the rolly-eyes? I'm an NRA-certified rifle instructor. Got a problem with that?
wacki said: Well I would certainly hope that any safety instructor, NRA or otherwise, knows the importance of making sure the person one hands a loaded weapon to knows how to properly handle it. It would appear that is not the case.

Its not about fault. Its about you taking ownership, being in charge of your own safety. Many of us who have learned to handle guns safely consider it a breech of etiquette to give someone a gun without opening the action and checking to ensure its unloaded, and we hand them back the same way. Its tandamount to taking a piss and immediately afterwards extending your outstretched palm to shake the fellow's hand standing at the urinal next to you.

Why would you even entertain the thought of handing someone a loaded gun? It doesn't matter if the recepient knows how to handle it. When I give a handgun to my pistolsmith, I know Jim knows how to handle it, but I wouldn't dream of offering it to him loaded, let alone unopened and cleared.


There's no nice way to say it, but you need to hear it. I suggest you aren't as competent and safe a gun handler as you believe yourself to be. Maybe its a lack of clear communication over the internet, but the way you've discussed this doesn't come across like you've learned how to safely pass a gun to another. OK. Yes. I admit I'm a little peeved at the condescention here. And I'm not sure you're in a position to be reprimanding an NRA certified instructor.

Spot77
December 20, 2006, 04:50 AM
I applaud the effort to "think outside of the box" with regards to having more information available to the average person. Which seems to be your intent judging by:

No, what it comes down to is what the average person will do. And the average person will not spend countless hours on THR learning about guns. Make the information cheap. Make it concise. And make it easy to access. Anything less is not the wisest of decisions IMO.


Lots of pros and cons about the idea. I think manufacturers could certainly stand to find innovative ways to reach fence sitters and people who aren't enthusiasts like us here at THR.

Maryland law makes first time handgun purchasers watch a 15 minutes video before buying the gun. It was pretty hokey, but it did emphasize the importance of knowing MD's self defense laws. The video only has to be watched once, for the purchase of one's first handgun. No need to watch it for subsequent purchases.

Perhaps the title of the thread should have read something like, "some long overdue marketing technique to make gun ownership and the 2nd Amendment more palatable to the masses." :)

GW
December 20, 2006, 04:54 AM
Well, here in the great state of California, to buy a new handgun you must have the Handgun safety card (I forget the actual name BFSC or something) At any rate, to get the cardyou must pass a written gun safety test.
THEN when you buy the handgun a "Safety instructor" must demonstrate to you how to check to see if its loaded and how to unload it yourself and then you must demonstrate that you can indeed safely unload the handgun. (One time, I had to show the instructor how to unload the 1911 I was buying. He left the thumb safety on:rolleyes: )
To be honest, though I find it inconvenient for myself. I think this is a worthwhile process, both the written test and the demonstration. At least the buyer will have had to know the basics of gun safety at some point in order to pass the test and the physical demonstration of how to safely unload the pistol would be very useful to the novice gun buyer. By making this demo mandatory, it bypasses the problem of the buyer not wanting to look stupid by asking how to load/unload the handgun or worse, not even knowing to ask.
I find that I can support these "laws". Probably the only gun laws in this state that I can support:scrutiny:

DWARREN123
December 20, 2006, 05:34 AM
Actually a safety cd with information on some of the other firearms the company makes would be a nice idea.

Soybomb
December 20, 2006, 06:09 AM
You know the number of actual gun accidents a year is so small I just don't see it as being that pressing of a need. Some people are going to do stupid things no matter what. Guns already come with "GUNS ARE DANGEROUS" and the rules all through the manuals. Beyond that its just common sense of what happens when you point a gun at something and pull the trigger. I think there comes a certain point at which you need to take responsibility for your actions. My bottle of scotch doesn't come with a dvd warning me of what might happen if I drive a forklift or play with a chainsaw while using it. Cars don't come with a how to drive computer cd course in the trunk. I'm not sure you're actually going to get statistically a much lower number no matter what you try.

Its a noble thought but I think we're better served by reminding people how few are killed each year by gun accidents and taking new people shooting and teaching them how to handle firearms safely.

GW
December 20, 2006, 06:14 AM
Then again, if the CD had topless women shooting the pistol/OU/Ruger #1 on full auto while explaining the principles of safety, then I for one, would promise to watch it at least once a week.;)

griz
December 20, 2006, 08:39 AM
Hello Wacki,
Like BFKen, I'm having a hard time distilling your suggestions down to get your main point. But as far as the safety video, I think it comes down to your comment: "nobody reads the instruction anyway". That would be true with a safety video too. If you really want to prevent accidents, make a short TV commercial, 15 or 20 seconds, that tells people to treat guns as if they are loaded. People may not read the directions or watch safety videos, but for some reason really people pay attention when they see something on TV.

javacodeman
December 20, 2006, 10:48 AM
I have several points so bear with me.

1) It seems like hypocrisy, when a person advocates teaching a new person about guns and getting others interested, then he/she rails against putting gun safety, tips, techniques, facts, etc., on a new media that is (for whatever reason) more used today and more user friendly (especially for my generation).

2) There is a vast difference between ignorance and stupidity. A lot of the posts here rail on stupid people, and that is fine. I don't believe this video idea is aimed at stupid people, just the ignorant.

3) There are a lot of ignorant people out there. A lot of you keep comparing guns to cars and alcohol, but cars and alcohol are a lot more a part of the younger generation's culture than guns (at least real guns that aren't on TV). I know a lot of you grew up with guns. You were taught about guns from early ages and have taught this to your children. Consider yourself lucky. This isn't the norm these days. Part of the reason that "common sense" is lacking for some is that guns are simply not that common for many youths growing up today. What do you say to someone that wants to learn about guns who doesn't have friends or family around to turn to and may be timid to walk into their local gun range asking noob questions? Why not provide them a well packaged start on gun basics , etc.,(edit: in a media that they are very comfortable with)?

4) Repackaging and compiling gun info onto a new media is not "gun control." Honestly, some of you guys have your tin foil hats too close. This is a measure that can put us (gun community) on (if even a small scale) the offense instead of always being on the defense. What is wrong with manufacturers, gun communities, and gun lobbiest going the "extra mile" (of their own accord, of course) to get "our" message out. Of course, it needs to be done well (i.e. not someone's tin foil hat rant about government conspiracies, etc.).

5) There are a lot of things that can be "shown" on a video a lot easier than "told" in a book/manual. Why not take advantage of this?

6) A case in point: myself. I read both of my manuals through and through. Both were informative. Both were a bit dry. On the other hand, I have learned a lot more about guns, safety, techniques, ideology etc., etc., here at THR. Did I seek out THR? No. I stumbled onto it from a different site while looking for some info on point shooting. Why was I looking for info on point shooting? Because the dealer that I bought from was a Special Forces guy and advised me to learn this as well as sighted shooting. If these circumstances had not come about, I may not have been aware of the wealth of information that was out there and that I didn't know.

Let the flaming ensue!;)

java

XDKingslayer
December 20, 2006, 11:20 AM
Responses like this make me angry. Reading news stories about the dangers of Mexican carry certainly raised my awareness. The dangers of a cheap holsters did as well.

You might not like the answer, but he's right.

The rules for gun handling are out there, people simply ignore them or get complancent. You can make all the pamphlets and DVDs and instructional videos that you want and people will STILL simply ignore them or get complacent or just plain screw up. We've seen it happen with responcible gun owners on this very board.

One of your own examples are an example of this also. The guy with the gun in the backpack, he had just graduated the police academy. I'm sure he was taught gun safety, but he still ignored it.

You can't stop that. No matter what you do.

grimjaw
December 20, 2006, 12:34 PM
There is a vast difference between ignorance and stupidity.

javacodeman, now that distinction I agree with. For those people who are ignorant of firearms and proper operation and etiquette, information should be made available. But if you look in most manuals you can find that information in abundance, unless you get the firearm used. Therre are other avenues, several of which were named in this thread. Perhaps more dealers could have a list of information sources on the counter, or on leaflets/handouts?

jm

gyp_c2
December 20, 2006, 01:10 PM
Javaman...yer' absolutely right...

Sometimes I have to slap myself for not thinking like a grown-up...I frequently ask myself how so many can be so uninformed.

My 14YO frequently laughs at me when I ask him stupid questions about his games and electronic stuff that I don't get...

/\/\/\...It'd be great if DVD or CD info was available to everyone that wanted it. For a group that hasn't been raised around firearms, it would be great if we had accurate public information TV...

...oops...we already have it...

So...what's really needed is for young, motivated, techno-savvy folks to get into just that niche.

The info is out there and has been for years...it would be helpful to utilize current technology and get those interested in actually working on this to commit their young, savvy selves to that end...


...any volunteers?

Soybomb
December 20, 2006, 03:28 PM
1) It seems like hypocrisy, when a person advocates teaching a new person about guns and getting others interested, then he/she rails against putting gun safety, tips, techniques, facts, etc., on a new media that is (for whatever reason) more used today and more user friendly (especially for my generation).
I'd like to first point out that I'm 25 and didn't grow up around guns so I think we are talking similar generations. I have no problem with this, I'm sure there are lots of DVD's like this out there already. If I google "gun safety dvd" it appears as though they are easy enough to find. At some point I think it has to come down to personal responsibility. I don't want to pay an extra $3 even with every gun I buy to pay for including this information. If someone is about to cram a loaded gun down their pants though they would be wise to research it a little. As it stands now all anyone from our generation needs to learn gun safety is 5 minutes with google. If they don't care to read the manual that came with the gun though I doubt they will go to that length.

Part of the reason that "common sense" is lacking for some is that guns are simply not that common for many youths growing up today. What do you say to someone that wants to learn about guns who doesn't have friends or family around to turn to and may be timid to walk into their local gun range asking noob questions? Why not provide them a well packaged start on gun basics , etc.,(edit: in a media that they are very comfortable with)?
Go with google, friends, family, or suck it up and take a class. If they are really so timid gun safety dvd's are already available for purchase.

Here's what I would suggest then if you're really interested in doing this. Go to one of the big names in training classes today and get them to produce a safety training video gratis. In exchange for producing the video they will not only be doing a service as a friend of the 2nd amendment but will be getting the opportunity to get their name otu there to help sell their books and videos. Next start a group that will take donations to cover costs of duplicating these and mailling them and make them free upon request. Also offer a download on the site to lower costs. Everyone has free access to the video, no additional costs passed onto the consumer. I doubt it'll prevent any accidents, but it'll be what you want.

javacodeman
December 20, 2006, 04:26 PM
I'm sure there are lots of DVD's like this out there already. If I google "gun safety dvd" it appears as though they are easy enough to find.

Noted: Quite possibly trying to reinvent the wheel here. Maybe it is already out there and I (and others) didn't think to look for it nor have been made aware of it.

As it stands now all anyone from our generation needs to learn gun safety is 5 minutes with google. If they don't care to read the manual that came with the gun though I doubt they will go to that length.

There are points about safety (and etiquette) that aren't covered in the four rules or manuals. I would invision the ideal DVD to cover situations that a noob just wouldn't even consider to let them learn the easy way. Additionally, I don't know what the OP had in mind, but an ideal DVD to me would cover more than just gun safety. How about cleaning your gun? I was nervous the first time I took apart my H&K (an easy gun to clean) as I had never done the like before. A simple fifteen minute segment showing you want to expect would be nice. I know that cleaning a gun is old hat to most of you, and you wouldn't find that interesting/informational. Not so with the noob. How about acceptable and unacceptable wear on a gun like a 5 min segment devoted to "this is what you can expect--anything outside of this should be taken to your local gunsmith." A segment like this would have saved my a 40 minute trip both ways to the only gunsmith around that I know/trust. Granted, I know now, but if it can be made easier then why not?

Again, I wouldn't want to see this be mandated or forced on any gun entity. I just thought it was a good idea. And again, I agree that stupid cannot be combated and that personnal responsibility should be required, but I see this as just another tool to inform, IMO.

The info is out there and has been for years...it would be helpful to utilize current technology and get those interested in actually working on this to commit their young, savvy selves to that end...


...any volunteers?

Is this a hint?:)

java

wacki
December 20, 2006, 06:52 PM
I don't want to pay an extra $3 even with every gun I buy to pay for including this information.

I buy blank DVD's for .39 cents. $3 is way too high. If the company is too cheap to spend that much they could slap a piece of paper with a URL on it for a free video download.

wacki
December 20, 2006, 06:57 PM
In exchange for producing the video they will not only be doing a service as a friend of the 2nd amendment but will be getting the opportunity to get their name otu there to help sell their books and videos.

See, this is the kind of response I was hoping for. A lot of things can be done with a DVD and I guarantee you a well made and fun to watch DVD will be far more effective than any book. This isn't just about safety. RKBA info, books, videos of gun events all sorts of things can be slapped on. There is soo much potential if people actually put their minds to it. I mean you can take video clips of news broadcasters saying stuff about guns and then debunking it. That kind of footage tends to hit people a lot harder than anything you can read in print.

wacki
December 20, 2006, 06:59 PM
Bullfrogken,

There's no nice way to say it, but you need to hear it. I suggest you aren't as competent and safe a gun handler as you believe yourself to be.

Well I certainly didn't claim to be a NRA instructor. I just handle long guns and those are pretty simple and straight forward when it comes to safety. But common sense tells me you don't hand random strangers loaded guns. Apparently there is more than one person in this thread that disagrees.

Maybe its a lack of clear communication over the internet, but the way you've discussed this doesn't come across like you've learned how to safely pass a gun to another. OK. Yes. I admit I'm a little peeved at the condescention here. And I'm not sure you're in a position to be reprimanding an NRA certified instructor.

So do you think it's ok to hand a stranger a loaded weapon without making sure they know how to handle it? Since you are criticizing me this certainly seems to be your position.

And honestly I really don't give a damn what anyone's title is. I will not hesitate to vocalize my disagreement with anyone that advocates handing random strangers a loaded gun without testing their gun knowledge.

BullfrogKen
December 20, 2006, 07:25 PM
wacki said: So do you think it's ok to hand a stranger a loaded weapon without making sure they know how to handle it? Since you are criticizing me this certainly seems to be your position.

And honestly I really don't give a damn what anyone's title is. I will not hesitate to vocalize my disagreement with anyone that advocates handing random strangers a loaded gun without testing their gun knowledge.

Why don't you go back, read what I wrote once again, and review my position on handing a gun to someone.


You don't have to care about a title. He's got experience, and training, and offers it to others. You certainly don't have to respect that, either, but don't expect it when you don't extend it to others. And I'm quite sure he doesn't advocate handing a loaded gun to anyone.

Thefabulousfink
December 20, 2006, 08:21 PM
Ok, I have watched this thread long enough.

Wacki comes up with an idea to increase the level of safe gun handling in the country. It would provide another form of introducing people to firearms and teaching them safety that would be easier to learn from and more enjoyable than a manual. He never said it had to be required by law, but simply a way to get our message out to a larger audience.

Wacki immediately goes on the defensive because the first couple posts all but accuse hime of being a Brady troll, and he spends the next 2 pages defending more attacks on himself than his idea.

I suppose you guy's are right, there is enough safety information out there. All those people who are killed or injured in firearms acciddents every year are just too stupid to learn. I guess all we can do is wait for Darwin to take care of them.:rolleyes:

Also there is no need to bring new people shooting, the community is large enough. After all, the gun controll activist are only looking out for our safety and the fewer gun owners, the cheaper gun prices will be. Why reach out to new shooters in an attractive way? Most people get eveything they need to know about guns from TV and movies, and those who are serrious about guns will spend their time pouring over dry manuals and internet forums full of right-wing nut jobs and tin-foil hats.:rolleyes:

Also I shouldn't have to tell a Mod not to hijack a thread to get into a discussion about someone's gun handling; either PM the person, or start another thread. Wacki's story about his friend was meant to illustrate the need for more gun safety information. The fact that Wacki was confused on the proper way to recieve a firearm (and you were Wacki) simply underscores the need for more effective imformation.

I can understand resistance to more government regulation, what I can't understand is resistance to what could be a valuable and effective tool for introducing and teaching new members of the firearms community.

Troutman
December 20, 2006, 08:40 PM
https://secure.prodregister.com/smith&wesson/

Smith & Wesson has a cd, they give to you when you join the "Smith & Wesson club 1852" (its free) with other things for joining.


Companies do give safety/operation instructions in their "owners booklet". Smith & Wesson does. People (the new owner) should read these booklets.

Zoogster
December 20, 2006, 08:43 PM
This is done in California already. It is part of the Handgun Safety Certificate course you are required to complete, which requires reading the book you have to buy because the test includes state specific laws and opinions not all standard. The majority of it is common sense, it is very similar to a written test for drivers. However it is one more state controlled license requirement that only lasts for 5 years and requires renewal and permission from the state to excercise your second amendment right.
Next I expect a similar course for how to properly excercise my first amendment right. Something about which phrases may offend certain people, a list of prohibited terms deemed unproductive or unnecessary in conversation including 'assault' words, as well as a short demonstration of proper language skills. This will grant me permission and license me to excercise my 'right' to speak about subjects otherwise forbidden for a period not to exceed 5 years.

MartinBrody
December 20, 2006, 08:47 PM
I often see violations of the 4 basic rules. The last time I was at a range I had a woman point a cocked pistol at me to show me the type of gun she had, this was minutes after an instructor had left her to practice on her own.

I am not sure about additional safety instruction with the gun, as most gun manuals are so full of them they take up half the booklet. Maybe putting the 4 rules on the exterior of the gun case would drill them into people's heads more. I don't think this should be a law, but might be a good thing to do.

Perhaps also when you go to shoot at a range you should have to show knowledge of the 4 rules and not just sign a waiver. Once again this shouldn't be a law, but would be nice.

Lastly, whenever you take someone out to shoot for the first time please take safety seriously, it will still be fun. I have taken many people to shoot their first rounds and not only did they love it, but felt more comfortable because they knew what they were doing. By minimizing the safety risk you are doing a a great disservice.

Molon Labe
December 20, 2006, 08:51 PM
Why would you even entertain the thought of handing someone a loaded gun? It doesn't matter if the recepient knows how to handle it. When I give a handgun to my pistolsmith, I know Jim knows how to handle it, but I wouldn't dream of offering it to him loaded, let alone unopened and cleared.When I give someone a gun, I always make sure it is unloaded. But when someone hands me a gun, I really don't care if it's unloaded or not. It makes no difference. Why should it? I'm going to check it anyway. Think about it...

-terry
December 20, 2006, 09:12 PM
+1 Fabulous.
There is still some common sense in this thread.

BullfrogKen
December 20, 2006, 09:23 PM
Thefabulousfink,

I support the promotion of safe gun handling. I also believe it is learned best through mentorship; everything else is a poor substitute.

DVD's are excellent mediums. I think they're much better than the internet, or a brochure. They also widely exist. The NRA has conducted safety programs for generations. They had videotapes decades ago, and I bet they still do even though DVD's are the common technology.


I resent the implication that the gun community somehow failed wacki because we didn't search him out and hold his hand when he bought his gun.


Frankly, I don't know what he wants. At first, it seems to be gun safety, then, a concealed carry primer, next its gun stats to battle anti-gunner arguments. And for a new gun owner to start off by telling us we are long overdue for common sense, or lack good gun handling skills, or don't reach out well enough . . . Yes, I take offense.

ArchAngelCD
December 20, 2006, 09:43 PM
wacki,
I have read everything you have posted in this thread and no matter how hard you try to deny it, you are a passive aggressive gun control advocate. You are playing the role of a friend but when read carefully the truth is there. You truly think guns are the problem and would rather they were out of the hands of the common folk. People like you are more dangerous than the anti-gun people that come right at you!

Henry Bowman
December 20, 2006, 10:44 PM
A safety pamphlet/CD was handed out with each firearm might be better. A CD/book would certainly be a far more cost effective way of distributing the information and it would certainly remove any privacy concerns.Here you go: http://www.safetyon.com

wacki
December 21, 2006, 12:01 AM
Thefabulousfink,

The fact that Wacki was confused on the proper way to recieve a firearm (and you were Wacki) simply underscores the need for more effective imformation.

OK, where in this thread did I tell you how I reacted? What exactly did I do wrong? Please inform me of the mistakes I made when he handed me the loaded gun.

wacki
December 21, 2006, 12:04 AM
https://secure.prodregister.com/smith&wesson/

Smith & Wesson has a cd, they give to you when you join the "Smith & Wesson club 1852" (its free) with other things for joining.


Companies do give safety/operation instructions in their "owners booklet". Smith & Wesson does. People (the new owner) should read these booklets.

These responses are getting annoying. This thread isn't just about safety. This thread is about a wide variety of topics. So Smith and Wesson hands out safety CD's. GREAT! Do they spend anytime debunking common anti-gun myths on that CD? Do they spend anytime talking about how to promote recreational firearm use? Do they spend any time discussing how to defend the 2A from overzealous legislatures?

I'm guessing the answer to all of these is no.

wacki
December 21, 2006, 12:19 AM
BullfrogKen,

Frankly, I don't know what he wants. At first, it seems to be gun safety, then, a concealed carry primer, next its gun stats to battle anti-gunner arguments.

Well I'm not sure how many times I have to say this but it would be nice to have all of those things on one single DVD. From the very first post I made in this thread:

Heck gun companies can spend 1/2 of the DVD talking up their company and the other 1/2 of the DVD as part of a standardized NRA/THR sponsored safety/anti-anti course.

Apparently that's not clear enough so I will list them out in an itemized fashion. I will quote ArfinGreebly's post which was the 8th one in this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2947367&postcount=8

I will add a few thing in red.

You buy your new rifle or pistol.

You get home, and in the box with it is a disk that has on it

1) the manual for that piece, with parts list, in PDF,
2) the company's catalog in PDF,
3) a video demonstrating proper shooting technique, prefaced by THE 4 RULES,
4) a video demonstrating proper cleaning and maintenance, including any adjustments, and THE 4 RULES,
5) for hunters, advice on field dressing the various things one hunts,
6) the addresses and phone numbers for those outfits that do professional training.
7) A PDF from gunfacts.info
8) NRA PDF
9) An easy to watch entertaining video made by the NRA that is similar to Penn & Tellers: Bullsh*t! on gun control. Have this video be a lot higher content than Penn & Teller by including lots of statistics.
10) anything else the gun people want to get out.
11) Interviews with John Lott where he discusses his books

This would, in fact, be a serious marketing tool.

All of those things *COULD* be on one DVD.

wacki
December 21, 2006, 12:23 AM
ArchAngelCD,

You truly think guns are the problem and would rather they were out of the hands of the common folk. People like you are more dangerous than the anti-gun people that come right at you!

I shoot skeet/trap, I support legalization of suppressors, and I'm upset about the Cook County laws because I want guns to be banned? I hope you realize this makes no sense.

rbernie
December 21, 2006, 12:24 AM
I resent the implication that the gun community somehow failed wacki because we didn't search him out and hold his hand when he bought his gun.
This is nothing more than the angst of the young and recently converted, I would imagine.

Ford is not responsible to teach people how to drive. McDonalds does not have a need to give away gym memberships to justify their corporate existence. Home Depot doesn't have a moral obligation to ensure that I know how to climb up the ladder that they sold me. In each case, the consumer has a basic requirement to understand the nature and intent of the object that they're purchasing, and to act with some minimal sense of responsibility. In none of these cases would we consider the manufacturer or industry as a whole to be somehow derelict for not having crammed consumer product safety or liability facts down the throats of potential consumers.

This thread isn't about common sense. It's more likely about compensating for the very lack of it by externalizing personal insecurities.

About four dozen posts ago, Wacki, I challenged you to actually take specific constructive action in regards to your concerns. Have you done anything about that, or do you just wish to sit here and berate us?

wacki
December 21, 2006, 12:34 AM
Bulfrog ken,

I resent the implication that the gun community somehow failed wacki because we didn't search him out and hold his hand when he bought his gun.

Oh please. Stop being so melodramatic. As long as I'm able to shoot trap/skeet and my bolt action rifles I'm happy. I've never wanted the gun community to hold my hand and I've never asked for it. I want them to debunk the anti-gun misinformation campaign.

rbernie,

This thread isn't about common sense. It's about compensating for the very lack of it by externalizing personal insecurities.

Well to me common sense says "if you are losing the information war, you might want to switch directions". And in Cook County Illinois, it would appear to me they lost the information war. Even at my local gun club, it's pretty obvious the gun rights people are losing the information war at least in the statistical arena. I'm trying to help you guys but apparently many members of THR would rather flame me then brainstorm better ways of getting the information out.

Stevie-Ray
December 21, 2006, 12:58 AM
As long as the CD/DVD is not mandated by law, I see no reason to oppose the idea. It is a good marketing idea after all.I agree with that. And on that DVD, I would also like to see the field-strip procedure filmed first person. For example, there's probably a lot of Ruger Mark I and Mark II owners that could benefit.:D

Don't Tread On Me
December 21, 2006, 01:10 AM
First of all, no one is attacking Wacki. I appreciate this discussion, and I believe it is a repectful civilized discussion. If I'm attacking anything, it is the notion that we're doing something positve for the RKBA by lowering gun deaths from 1.43% to 1.41%.


I'm not against the concept of firearms safety or instruction. However, I believe there are plenty of avenues for one to educate themselves on firearms and firearm safety IF THEY WANT TO. You can lead a horse to water but....


If you think that this is a good PR move for the RKBA, think again. It will accomplish nothing, zip, zero, zilch. For one, the anti's don't care how many or how few people die of gun violence or gun accidents. They don't care if just 1 person a year dies. For crying out loud, they fabricate gun accident figures! They lie. They will use any tactic they can. They hate your RKBA. End of story.

The moderates or fence riders are uneducated of all things related to firearms. You're not going to convince them against gun control because you promote safety videos. They must be made to understand to live with RKBA, bad and good.


Secondly, my RKBA is not subject to public opinion polls. What some people think of my rights is irrelevant. God gave them to me, no one can take them away. That's how it works.


Now, if you think this is a good idea to promote safety, merely because you'd like to save lives - ok, I'm all for that. The best way to do it, would be to produce a video that not only has safety, but has some tactical instruction. You'd have to put something good in there other than "boring" safety stuff which most people will just snooze through or cause them to throw the DVD in the garbage. Incorporating safety with a 30 minute Clint Smith instructional would be great. No one would throw that away, and most people would watch it. That would work. Also, the manufacturer who produces the DVD can have plenty of infomercial/brochure style showcases for their accessories or other products with examples of the stuff in action. Some members already suggested some of these ideas.

BullfrogKen
December 21, 2006, 01:13 AM
wacki said: I want them to debunk the anti-gun misinformation campaign.

rbernie,


Quote:
This thread isn't about common sense. It's about compensating for the very lack of it by externalizing personal insecurities.

wacki said: Well to me common sense says "if you are losing the information war, you might want to switch directions".

wacki, what do you think the NRA has been doing since before you were even aware of what a gun was? I don't think anyone's losing a war here.

And, I don't think safe gun handling instructional materials belong intertwined with political campaigns.


Have you even looked into what the NRA has produced? :scrutiny:

wacki
December 21, 2006, 01:43 AM
I don't think anyone's losing a war here.

Oh really? Well after discovering gunfacts.info I decided to poll some people at my local gun club on some really basic gun statistics. I suggest you go out to the streets of your local metropolis and ask them the following questions:

1) "What is more dangerous to a 5 year old, a bucket of water or a gun?"
2) T/F a swimming pool is 100x more dangerous than a gun.
3) T/F You are 43x more likely to kill a family member than a stranger with a gun.
4) T/F Of the worlds top 5 strongest economies, the nations with the lowest suicide rate have the strictest gun control.

And see how many people get those right. I'd love to see the results in Chicago. Here's a hint: nobody at my local gun club got those right. Granted I phrased some of them a little differently to make the answers difficult to spot (multiple choice or embedded in a conversation, people tend to guess right if they know they are being set up) but you get the point. More people were quoting false anti-statistics then the legit ones.

And, I don't think safe gun handling instructional materials belong intertwined with political campaigns.

Well that is your personal opinion and one I disagree with. Just because they are on the same DVD doesn't mean they have to be "intertwined". You can have 5 different companies making 5 different videos with 5 different goals. The single DVD can be *officially* written off as merely a method of conservation. Something that is a legitimate argument because it would be a bit wasteful to send out 5 different DVD's just for PR reasons. If you want to keep a mental barrier just use the other side of the DVD for the political stuff. But even if a gun company agrees with you it's pretty easy to keep it a-political. There is a lot of misinformation out there. I do not consider debunking false statistics to be a political effort but rather a matter of truth and hard science.

Have you even looked into what the NRA has produced?

Well I did reference them in this thread. So yes, I have. I have also referenced them on my blog. I still think it could be dramatically improved upon. I've been exposed to a reasonable amount of PR efforts and websites generally aren't enough. If they were then scientists wouldn't have had so much trouble debunking the "Sound Science Coalition"'s take on tobacco induced cancer and countless other things. Websites are a good way of documenting information but they really aren't an effective means of changing the general publics opinion.

ripcurlksm
December 21, 2006, 02:27 AM
Maybe this is because I lack as much experience as other people on this forum, but I am pretty set on keeping my gun with an empty chamber for maximum safety.

I choose C3 because if I need to draw my weapon, I need a second to draw it and a fraction of a second to rack the slide on my 1911. The way I see it is if I dont have enough time to do this, having a bullet in the chamber with the safety on is going to take just as long. If I dont get 2 seconds, I see it as too late anyway, so I opt C3. Am I off base on this one?

Ryder
December 21, 2006, 04:38 AM
OK, where in this thread did I tell you how I reacted? What exactly did I do wrong? Please inform me of the mistakes I made when he handed me the loaded gun.


I'll take a stab at that. You reacted by accepting the gun. That is what you did wrong.

You should have refused to accept it. An appropriate response would have been something like "Put that thing away :what: ".

Someone else asked why you were passing around a gun in a restaurant. I haven't seen your answer.

Playing show and tell in public makes the issue of it being loaded or not insignificant.

GW
December 21, 2006, 05:09 AM
I choose C3 because if I need to draw my weapon, I need a second to draw it and a fraction of a second to rack the slide on my 1911. The way I see it is if I dont have enough time to do this, having a bullet in the chamber with the safety on is going to take just as long. If I dont get 2 seconds, I see it as too late anyway, so I opt C3. Am I off base on this one?

Well, yes. I recommend strongly that you get some training
With training you will learn how to draw a Cocked & locked 1911, essentially taking off the thumb-safety as you are bringing the gun onto target. Drawing, racking & aiming will take waaay too long, with too many chances for something to go wrong such as your hand slipping on the slide as you try to rack it
IMHO, if you are drawing your gun, you need it ready to shoot, and you don't need to be wasting time fumbling with a slide.

Molon Labe
December 21, 2006, 08:23 AM
You reacted by accepting the gun. That is what you did wrong.

You should have refused to accept it.So, um, when someone is giving you a gun, do you ask them if it I unloaded before accepting it? :rolleyes:

Not me. I'm a big boy. And while I have immense respect for guns, I'm also not afraid of them. I simply check the magazine and chamber (ever time!) and make it safe.

BullfrogKen
December 21, 2006, 01:38 PM
Quote:
I don't think anyone's losing a war here.

wacki said: Oh really? Well after discovering gunfacts.info I decided to poll some people at my local gun club on some really basic gun statistics.

Yes, really. The number of states that have liberalized concealed carry laws has grown considerably, and it started when Clinton was in office. You might not remember, but a decade ago Democrats ran on campaigns with gun control at the top of their agenda, right at the TOP, blatant, and with no attempt to couch what they were doing. Now . . . the party realizes its a loosing issue to advocate that, and they have backed off it. They might still want it, but they don't publicize it and make it a party platform.

No, we're not losing. The NRA, and others with fund raising agendas might have you believe it, but we've reached a DMZ of sorts on new gun control, and even made ground on some areas.


And, I do most ardently believe that safe gun handling education be devoid of politics. For it to have credibility, its best to simply be objective, and stick to the mechanics of educating a person how to safely handle a firearm. Eddie Eagle wouldn't be as successful, and wouldn't get into the avenues it has, if it loaded its presentations and materials up with political agendas. Including what you're demanding is advocacy, and advocating a position is politicking.


rbernie said: This is nothing more than the angst of the young and recently converted, I would imagine.

Yes, I believe you are right.

Thefabulousfink
December 21, 2006, 02:36 PM
I never said that the gun community failed anybody, I was trying to say that we can do more. I am a firm believer in personal responsibilty and when an adult shoots himself or sombody else, no one else is responsible. However, every time a drunken idiot puts a bullet somewhere it doesn't belong, the anti's use it to frighten the public about guns.

The right of self protection might be God-given, but that doesn't mean it is safe. The right to life is just as important, but in the last century, millions of people were killed by their governments. Like it or not we ARE in a popularity war with the anti's. As soon as they can be certain that 2/3rds of the population think guns are too dangerous to own, then the anti's will abolish the 2A. It happend in the UK, it happened in Austrailia, and it can happen here.

In the last 10 years, the image of the shooting community has made some amazing advancements. With groups like the Pink Pistols and 2nd Amendment Sisters we have been slowly breaking down the stereotype of the drunken racist redneck. We've got momentum now, lets keep the ball rolling. Can you honestly look at the Country today and say "the 2nd Amendment is safe, our work here is done"? We can not afford to stop and rest on our laurels, we have to press our advantage because if we don't, the anti's certainly will.

Waki:
This is the last I am going to say about it because I am trying to put out a flame war. I went back and re-read the initial posts and it seems like an argument over a mincing of words, aggravated by egos emotions and misunderstandings.
The NRA and the military teach that you allways assume a weapon is loaded (even if you have been told otherwise) until you have inspected it yourself. You are correct in the fact the the other person should have cleared the weapon or at least told you its condition (it is proper range etiquette); however, you described the situation in a way that lead others to believe that you wanted the other person to tell you the weapon's condition rather than checking yourself. The proper way to hand a gun to another person is: Person A opens the action and checks to make sure the weapon is clear, person A hand the weapon to person B, person B then opens the action and check to make sure the weapon is clear. That is the CORRECT way to pass a gun.

Vern Humphrey
December 21, 2006, 02:45 PM
Why doesn't anyone push the most common sense form gun control of all? I mean I see no reason why some gun safety CD shouldn't be attached to each firearm sold. The NRA and gun companies should be doing this on a voluntary basis anyway.

Every gun I've ever bought new came with an owner's manual. Now I've been in the education and training and business a looooong time, and take it from me, a simple, old printed manual is far better than a video or CD:

1. You don't need a machine to read the manual.

2. You can take it to the range with you -- where you have no access to power.

3. It's easy to find what you want in a manual.

4. People who will not read the manual will not play the CD or tape.

One more point -- firearms accidents are very rare. In fact, of all the accidents the government categorizes, firearms are far and away the least frequent. If not for the politics involved, they wouldn't be worth categeorizing at all.

Things like manuals, posters and fellow shooters work. The firearms accident rate is steadily going down.

So let's spend our time looking for solutions to real problems.

griz
December 21, 2006, 06:48 PM
1) the manual for that piece, with parts list, in PDF,
2) the company's catalog in PDF,
3) a video demonstrating proper shooting technique, prefaced by THE 4 RULES,
4) a video demonstrating proper cleaning and maintenance, including any adjustments, and THE 4 RULES,
5) for hunters, advice on field dressing the various things one hunts,
6) the addresses and phone numbers for those outfits that do professional training.
7) A PDF from gunfacts.info
8) NRA PDF
9) An easy to watch entertaining video made by the NRA that is similar to Penn & Tellers: Bullsh*t! on gun control. Have this video be a lot higher content than Penn & Teller by including lots of statistics.
10) anything else the gun people want to get out.
11) Interviews with John Lott where he discusses his books


That's quite a long list. I'm still not conviniced that people who will not crack the owners manual will open a CD, but here is something else to consider.

Even though those items are doable, the gun company may not want to. About five ot ten years ago S&W put some ads in womens magazines. The way the media spouted off about it, you would think they were twisting women's arms and making them buy guns. Now that is only one little example, but my point is the best way for a company to deal with controversy is to avoid it. Siding with John Lott may be a can of worms they don't want to open.

Troutman
December 21, 2006, 07:05 PM
For Wacki,

They do promote recreational firearm use (as well as other firearm use)...i.e. hunting, home defense, ect, and it is on the cd as a direct link to the Smith & Wesson website. One does not need their cd to get to this information though.


http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CustomContentDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&content=11001


This has a vast amount of information, through their links and third party links as well. Just for the taking. Easy as the click of the mouse. Now, something that one would like to be added, one can e-mail those (S &W) about adding additional information, links, on their website. See if that helps.
As far as debatable issues ...Speaking for me, S & W is a firearms manufacturer. Not the law offices, lobbyists’/ or special interest group of Smith and Wesson. I just want to purchase a firearm from them, want good customer service, a warranty and a quality product from them. I don't want to know, or care how they feel (personally) about the 2A. I myself, could (not saying that I would or do) feel that I don't want a lobby/ special interest group to represent my views on the 2A. Not every one who owns a hand/long-gun is or wants to be, a member of the NRA.
If I want someone to explain, protect, promote those 2A rights, I will join (member myself) the NRA, and/or other org. Whole point.
This has been going on for years, the 2A debate. Their will always be people for and against firearms, or for anything else, for that matter. If one can change that, where no one will be against guns. More power to them. Remember... Power (money helps as well) is in numbers (people), not only in political offices. As we all now know in the past election. So, let the games begin.
Heck, just talking about this makes me want to break open that bottle of booze.
And make a donation to the Brady bunch. They have to get with the times. They need that automatic dishwasher, then and in today’s world. Where they can put the maid to better use than washing those dishes by hand. What a waste of man(maid)power.

wacki
December 24, 2006, 12:12 AM
Ryder said:
I'll take a stab at that. You reacted by accepting the gun. That is what you did wrong.

You should have refused to accept it. An appropriate response would have been something like "Put that thing away ".

Someone else asked why you were passing around a gun in a restaurant. I haven't seen your answer.[/QUOTE]

Um... where did I say I accepted it?

And what's your beef with the restaurant? What if it was in his home? Is there really that big of a difference? For what it's worth the walls of the room were concrete and we were the only ones in there. So I would think that room would be safer than his home. He had a CCW.

Playing show and tell in public makes the issue of it being loaded or not insignificant.

Is a gun club a public area? What about a gun show? What about the gun raffles at my local hunting lodge? Are those areas public?

wacki
December 24, 2006, 12:25 AM
Bullfrog ken said:

rbernie said: This is nothing more than the angst of the young and recently converted, I would imagine.
Yes, I believe you are right.



I've been shooting .22's, BB's, and trap since I was a cub scout. If I have any angst at all it's in how uneducated the general public is on the topic of guns. I've never seen a lecture by a gun rights person at any of the Universities I've attended. I've never seen a NRA pamphlet at any of the gun clubs I've been to. So it seems to me that the pro-RKBA campaign has a lot of room for improvement. This is especially true when the best video on the topic that I've seen was made by Penn & Teller. If I have any angst at all it's at the pro-RKBA members that carry the "we are already doing everything we can" mentality when it's obvious there is plenty of things that have never been tried.

It's nice to see some people (and even a moderator) making unsupportable derogatory assumptions about me though. Don't bother asking, just assume and state it as fact.

wacki
December 24, 2006, 12:36 AM
Now I've been in the education and training and business a looooong time, and take it from me, a simple, old printed manual is far better than a video or CD:

1. You don't need a machine to read the manual.

Just because you have a DVD doesn't mean you can't have a safety manual as well. But there are things you can do on a DVD that you can't do in a book. Remember the DVD isn't just about safety. It's not a one trick pony. See the list i highlighted in red.

wacki
December 24, 2006, 12:45 AM
griz said: Even though those items are doable, the gun company may not want to. About five ot ten years ago S&W put some ads in womens magazines. The way the media spouted off about it, you would think they were twisting women's arms and making them buy guns. Now that is only one little example, but my point is the best way for a company to deal with controversy is to avoid it. Siding with John Lott may be a can of worms they don't want to open.


See, now I just learned something. This is valuable information. However, I think this could very easily be avoided. The gun companies or the NRA could hire someone like Frank Luntz to avoid controversy. Frank Luntz is extremely good at what he does and politicians around the world hire him to wiggle their way out of a spot they don't want to be in. It can be done it just needs to be done properly. I know there have been people at this a long time but in all honesty I haven't been terribly impressed with the job the NRA has been doing. I fully expected to get flamed by that comment, but it's true. I've seen far better information campaigns by other industrial forces. I'm sure they do a ton of things I don't see. And I don't doubt they are very influential. It just seems obvious to me that they could learn a trick or two from various lobbying firms that routinely conflict with the scientific community. Granted I don't think they should associate themselves with those groups as those groups often don't play fair, but the pro-RKBA lobbyists could certainly learn a few tactics.

wacki
December 24, 2006, 12:57 AM
Don't Tread On Me, excellent ideas. See this is the kind of responses that I like!


BullfrogKen,

BullfrogKen: And, I do most ardently believe that safe gun handling education be devoid of politics. For it to have credibility, its best to simply be objective, and stick to the mechanics of educating a person how to safely handle a firearm. Eddie Eagle wouldn't be as successful, and wouldn't get into the avenues it has, if it loaded its presentations and materials up with political agendas. Including what you're demanding is advocacy, and advocating a position is politicking.


You don't think you can slip in a few stats anywhere? I mean you don't have to be blatantly RKBA but I'm sure it would be pretty easy to slip in a few stats that even gun control advocates agreed upon that were somewhat relevant to safety. Most credible gun control advocates will acknowledge that swimming pools are 100x more dangerous than a firearm. I even list a few on my blog.

That being said if you absolutely had to keep them separated they can be. I just see no reason why two different videos can't be on the same DVD. For instance, I see no reason why a video of Eddie Eagle couldn't be co-stored on the same DVD as a History Channel episode regarding the 2nd amendment and Thomas Jefferson. Something like that.

rbernie
December 24, 2006, 02:08 PM
It's nice to see some people (and even a moderator) making unsupportable derogatory assumptions about me though. Don't bother asking, just assume and state it as fact.Hmmmm - Pot, meet the Kettle.

Some long overdue common sense for firearm owners. Does this sound familiar? Some of your fellow forum members would consider this a unsupportable derogatory assumption..... :rolleyes: Presuming that your ideas to be so original, unique, and perfect as to render all others meaningless is a sin usually reserved for youth. <shrug> I could be wrong, but I've lived thru that and I remember what it's like. You started this conversation on a condescending note, you insulted anyone who didn't agree with you, and you bounced all over the map with your concerns and arguments. You've cleaned things up here lately, but you didn't start off very well. Expect to be taken to task for that; this forum largely expects and demands adult discourse.

For what it's worth - I've been in probably three or four dozen gun shops in my life, and equal as many gun shows. Every single one of them had NRA pamphlets in 'em. Every one had the Second Amendment pasted somewhere on the wall in large letters. Every one had the usual self-defense books and trade rags on display for sale. Does that help the RKBA community? Not much. After all, the vast majority of folks who go to gun shops are gunnies themselves. Until you can penetrate, for example, the big box stores with this kind of stuff, you're wasting your time. And you'll not do that in your lifetime, I assure you.

Look, dude - in three separate posts now, I've advocated that you take your energy and focus it where it can do some good, using the NRA's Eddie Eagle program as an example. You've not responded to that, and I think that's a shame. You're screwing around with the dumbchit and missing the important stuff - the packaging is not nearly as important as getting the message out there. And the only way to get the message out there is for each and every one of us to carry it. All of the slick packaging and compilation in the world won't help you if nobody takes the time to listen and read.

Volunteer to take the Eddie Eagle program into your local grade schools. Teach the next gneration not to screw around with this stuff but make sure that they know that there is a world of this stuff out there that TV won't show them.
Ask Guy Smith for permission to take the gunfacts.info content and mail a paper copy to every one of your local, state, and Federal representatives. Do this yearly. DO IT. Put yourself in the drivers seat on this.
Become an NRA certified firearms instructor, and provide inexpensive firearms safety training. Put up pamphlets for CCW firearms training on every bulletin board you can find. (Grocery stores are good for this kind of thing, but you'll have to keep putting them back up as hopolophobes will pull them down..) You want people to exhibit safe gunhandling? Educate them, one on one. Put some skin in the game. You have a litany of concerns, but it seems as if you're really interested in identifying the (obvious) issues instead of trying to invest personal capital (time and/or money) to help solve them. The name of the game is memes - popular culture comes up with their memes and we counter with ours. We're at a disadvantage because no matter how you package it, the moooooovies and news will always generate slicker, more powerful memes to a wider audience. You can't counter that with a DVD compilation of safety and gun facts. You can only work subversively, to educate folks one at a time, and hope that you can incorporate some of them into the ongoing effort. In our suburbanized world, hunting no longer carries the weight that it used to - CCW is the new focus. Folks in suburban and urban settings can see CCW as something THEY might want/need to do. Use that interest as the means by which you educate them.

You have the energy - focus it in ways that can really help. Thinking grand thoughts is nice, but (just as with warfare) no ground is truly taken until there are muddy boots on it.

Are you gonna put yout boots into play, or stand in the rear and shout rude names at those in the field? ;)

wacki
December 25, 2006, 04:47 PM
Does this sound familiar? Some of your fellow forum members would consider this a unsupportable derogatory assumption..... Presuming that your ideas to be so original, unique, and perfect as to render all others meaningless is a sin usually reserved for youth.

Look I phrased the title wrong. I even edited the original post to excuse the title. I messed up and and admitted it. Most of ideas, especially the video format, are not original. They are being used by many people in many areas of politics. Video is one area of information dissemination that is being very neglected within the firearm community. And with the widespread use of youtube, torrents, and google video there really isn't an excuse for that.

I did a quick search on youtube and I got these pro NRA results:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ_X72e_k9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqjxh5aTkkI

WHICH WERE MADE BY KIDS!!!!!!!!

and a few parodies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP0d0KTPZoE

and this was the only professional production that was related to the NRA on youtube (that I found):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhvKYzKwf88

Not exactly the best thing for the NRA.

Video is widely known as one of the most effective means of information dissemination. Many TV shows get higher ratings on youtube than on their traditional venues. Despite the extremely effective means of google video, and youtube this avenue has been completely ignored by the NRA. I mean, even the few videos that the NRA has produced are poorly distributed:

google video search (http://video.google.com/videosearch?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=xNG&q=%22It%20Can't%20Happen%20Here%22%20NRA&btnG=Search&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv)

Has zero hits. Which would make sense since the NRA doesn't have any videos on google video. After about 2 minutes of searching I can't find that video anywhere on the internet. It should not be that hard to find. The fact of the matter is the most pro-gun material on youtube & google video is made by highschoolers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ_X72e_k9g) and gun shop (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7554794211432865631&q=NRA) owners. If that's not proof that the NRA has lots of room for improvement in the RKBA campaign then I don't know what would be.

Every one had the Second Amendment pasted somewhere on the wall in large letters. Every one had the usual self-defense books and trade rags on display for sale.

Well your experience has been different than mine.

You're screwing around with the dumbchit and missing the important stuff - the packaging is not nearly as important as getting the message out there.

Well I didn't bring up the packaging. Other people did and I tried to respond. So don't blame me for wasting energy on packaging.



As for your ideas:


Look, dude - in three separate posts now, I've advocated that you take your energy and focus it where it can do some good, using the NRA's Eddie Eagle program as an example. You've not responded to that, and I think that's a shame. ... Volunteer to take the Eddie Eagle program into your local grade schools. Teach the next gneration not to screw around with this stuff but make sure that they know that there is a world of this stuff out there that TV won't show them.

I'm more concerned with RKBA knowledge than safety. But safety is important. And when it comes to safety I'd much rather teach people how to use guns then teach people to run away from them and get somebody qualified to handle the gun. The NRA sells this video for $9.95.
http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=EE_vidoes
That is too much. There is no download link, no torrent link, etc. That is not right. The video should be available for free.

Ask Guy Smith for permission to take the gunfacts.info content and mail a paper copy to every one of your local, state, and Federal representatives. Do this yearly. DO IT. Put yourself in the drivers seat on this.

See, this is actually a good idea. But one thing I've learned over the years it's that politicians don't really care what is right and what is wrong. They care about what gets them elected. I like this constructive thinking though!

Become an NRA certified firearms instructor, and provide inexpensive firearms safety training. Put up pamphlets for CCW firearms training on every bulletin board you can find. (Grocery stores are good for this kind of thing, but you'll have to keep putting them back up as hopolophobes will pull them down..) You want people to exhibit safe gunhandling? Educate them, one on one. Put some skin in the game.

I'll be happy to become a NRA certified firearms instructor. But this one on one training is exactly the close minded thinking I'm trying to get away from. As far as manpower goes, it's high cost and low *quantity* return. The quality of return may be high but the number of people you reach is very low. I introduce about 10 people a year to skeet/trap so I'm already doing this. There are just far more effective ways to campaign IMO.

You have a litany of concerns, but it seems as if you're really interested in identifying the (obvious) issues instead of trying to invest personal capital (time and/or money) to help solve them.

I won't invest the time to solve them? Can you please explain to me what I'm doing in this thread? Can you please stop trying to insult me. I'm trying to help the firearm community and you keep making personal attacks.


We're at a disadvantage because no matter how you package it, the moooooovies and news will always generate slicker, more powerful memes to a wider audience.

As I said before, Penn & Teller made a good first stab in this arena. There is a lot more room for improvement.

You can't counter that with a DVD compilation of safety and gun facts. You can only work subversively, to educate folks one at a time, and hope that you can incorporate some of them into the ongoing effort.

See I strongly disagree with this. This is not the proper time or the place to go into my background but experience has told me that there are powerful mediums that have gone ignored. Maybe my DVD idea was bad. But there is no reason why videos should not be all over google video. I mean the least the NRA could do is try to buy the rights to the Penn & Teller episode on gun control so it can be freely distributed via google video. As of right now it gets taken down every time someone tries to put it up.

Are you gonna put yout boots into play, or stand in the rear and shout rude names at those in the field?

I'm willing to put my boots in play. And I did not mean to insult the good members of this forum. But there should be no doubt the RKBA campaign is missing a few weapons in it's inventory. Youtube and google video should make that obvious.

rbernie
December 25, 2006, 06:23 PM
But this one on one training is exactly the close minded thinking I'm trying to get away from. .....The quality of return may be high but the number of people you reach is very low. It has been my sorry experience that people that are easily swayed to one side of an argument by a two minute video are just as easily swayed to the other by more of the same. If you want true converts that can be counted on - you've got to make it personal for 'em. That takes time, and there are precious few shortcuts.

I'm more concerned with RKBA knowledge than safety. In my humble opinion, you can't have a sustainable RKBA-centric mindset without simply having more gun owners. You can find the occasional non-gunnie who 'gets' the notion of firearms as part of our being a 'responsible' society, but by and large the RKBA effort is comprised of folks who own firearms and see restrictions on that ownership as a personal affront.

And I believe that you can't get more gun owners without doing two basic things; making non-gunnies see the value in firearms, and making sure that they get comfortable in the presence of firearms. Programs such as Eddie Eagle and personalized inexpensive CCW instruction do just that.

You can characterize that kind of approach as low-yield, and you'd be right. But that doesn't make it ineffective; the folks that you convert are likely converts for the long haul.

I won't invest the time to solve them? Can you please explain to me what I'm doing in this thread? You're fussing with us. What are you doing out in the world? How many times have you written to your elected officials? How many LTE have you had published?

Look - I'm not trying to insult you. I'm trying to point out that bitching here does NOT equate to action. It only equates to bitchin'.

But there should be no doubt the RKBA campaign is missing a few weapons in it's inventory. Youtube and google video should make that obvious.Point well taken. Have you spoken to the NRA or GOA about this, and come up with examples of what you'd like for them to fund? If not, that should be your next step.

SniperStraz
December 25, 2006, 06:50 PM
they would use the internet to find safety tips and procedures. The sad truth is that they just dont care. They think they know it all. In my opinion and probably all of us on THR a smart gun owner is always learning. But for most people, once they have a gun in their hands they get a little bit of a God-Complex.

Vern Humphrey
December 25, 2006, 06:59 PM
If people were really interested they would use the internet to find safety tips and procedures. The sad truth is that they just dont care. They think they know it all. In my opinion and probably all of us on THR a smart gun owner is always learning. But for most people, once they have a gun in their hands they get a little bit of a God-Complex.

Do you have anything to back that up?

If what you say is true, there would be a much more serious problem with firearms accidents than there actually is. In fact, the rate of firearms accidents has dramatically declined over the years and is now so low that firearms accidents are far and away the least frequent category of accidents -- in fact, if it weren't for politics, firearms accidents wouldn't even be categorized any more, just lumped in with "other."

akodo
December 25, 2006, 07:16 PM
heres a few thoughts for you wikki

How big of a fine or how much jail time should a person receive if they fail to include said CD? That's really what a law is about.

If as an industry, the gun compaines decided they were going to include a CD as you describe, i would applaud that decision.

However, coming from lawmakers, that is entirely different.

Also, as you suggest this being a law, how do you think our gun ignorant or gun paranoid senators and representatives would craft a law? they would make it big and akward, have it be in 62 languages, be 20 hours long, and contain tons and tons of legaleeze, AT BEST, at worst, it would be all that and the antis would include misleading information about exatly how safe or unsafe the gun is.


As others have said, every gun company with a recongnizable name includes a manual that covers the saftey rules. The printed word is still the most effective universal form of communication. (not all people have dvds and computers with cd drives, etc etc. Sometimes it is because they are behind the times, sometimes it is because they are ahead of them, having blue-ray disks rather than dvds, and having a laptop with no cd drive, as they download everything.)

So, of their own free will the manufactureres are doing almost exactly what you ask for, except they are doing it better, as they are providing this information in the most universally accessible option possible.

Vern Humphrey
December 25, 2006, 07:58 PM
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, let me point out that training (and that includes manuals, CDs and so on) is a solution.

I made a lot of money in the commercial training business, and I used to point out that before you advocate a solution, you must first have a problem. And you ought to be able to address the magnitude of the problem.

After that, you should be able to explain how your solution will make the problem go away -- or at least reduce it.

Now if the problem is too many firearms accidents, the evidence indicates that the rate of firearms accidents is very low and dropping. To say that thicker, more impenetrable manuals or CDs will make it drop faster is something that is difficult to demonstrate.

Prince Yamato
December 25, 2006, 09:58 PM
My brother (a new gun owner) and I were discussing how guns come with labels that say "warning, read manual before operating". The particular gun we saw was a revolver. If you can't operate a revolver, you shouldn't be allowed to operate any gun, period. But here you are saying, include a DVD. THen he warning on my next gun will say, "Please VIEW DVD or read manual before operating". More words for the idiots who can't and shouldn't use a damn gun.

ServiceSoon
December 25, 2006, 10:22 PM
Common sense to me means: making sure somebody receives the proper training before handling (insert object here).

Analogy. By a show of hands, who thinks mandatory testing/training before you are issued a drivers license is a good idea? Or should we let people who are blind drive? I know there are only 2 pedals, one steering wheel and 100 different street signs; I think everybody should be able to figure it out...eventually.

Bottom Line: Training, education, and teaching common sense is common sense. :neener:

telomerase
December 25, 2006, 10:30 PM
Or should we let people who are blind drive?

IIRC in Ohio when I got my license it was perfectly OK for blind people to drive if they had two mirrors. For some reason most of them don't try it, even without being told not to by government geniuses.

I'm all in favor of training... but hoping you can legislate people to be smarter against their will is not betting on history. You might also note that the US has much safer roads than Europe, and much looser driver's license requirements.

Vern Humphrey
December 26, 2006, 11:28 AM
I know there are only 2 pedals, one steering wheel and 100 different street signs; I think everybody should be able to figure it out...eventually.

You never drove a stick shift?;)

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