Anybody have a milsurp that defies all logic??


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R.W.Dale
December 20, 2006, 09:24 PM
Check out this complete freak of nature. I own almost 20 centire fire rifles new and old bolt actions from 106 yrs old to brand new 22 hornet to 300WBY................ AND YET my frankenrifle put togeather from parts out shoots most of them with astounding groups on a REGULAR basis. Pictured below are the ONLY five groups i've fired with this load. 8lb trigger and all.


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/MAS36/Hpim0816.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/MAS36/HPIM0906.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/MAS36/HPIM1134.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/MAS36/HPIM0789.jpg

I bought this MAS 36 from a local shop a few years back, unaware at the time the craptastic level of workmanship the goons at Century exibited when converting this rifle to 308 win.

So since the rifle was already completely screwed up I've had some fun with it playing around with some DIY bubba style gunsmithing. First off I had to fashon a new forend retaining clip from an old motorbike masterlink. Then I managed to e-bay a Golden State arms carbine barrel in the original 7.5x54 cartrige. Next came the cobble togeather scope mount held in place with some machine screws from a junk outboard motor that sports a Bushnell Banner shotgun scope. Lastly I full length bedded the forend to the barrel using some Quicksteel from a local auto parts house.

You would think a bubbification such as this would shoot like crap and yet is shoots groups like the ones pictured above. It shoots other bullets almost as well provided that they are short and have lots of bearing surface. I JUST DON"T GET IT.

Mabye one day I'll get lucky and be able to hustle sombody at the range with this rifle

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browningguy
December 20, 2006, 10:28 PM
This is my 1891 Argentine carbine, sporterized in the '50's by Williams. It has the factory barrel with a like new bore, all matching numbers, and a really nice crest, this may have been an unissued rifle when they did the work. The major changes were the stock sporterization and addition of a peep sight.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/Rifles/1891mauser.jpg

This is the normal 3 shot group at 100 yards, usually it shoots around .85-.95" when I can follow through on it. The time between pulling the trigger and boom is lengthy, could probably take a coffee break. These are with Speer .311" 180 gr. bullets for the .303, loaded to about 2350 FPS.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/7.jpg

R.W.Dale
December 20, 2006, 10:36 PM
NICE argentine. My 1891 also shoots those 180grn Sierras rather well.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/HPIM0874.jpg

Loanshark
December 20, 2006, 11:16 PM
My K-31's will do that. That doesn't surprise most people though.

Just for the record I think you call 3 shots a cluster... 5 shots is a group.

R.W.Dale
December 20, 2006, 11:22 PM
Just for the record I think you call 3 shots a cluster... 5 shots is a group.


Just for the reacord 3 shots is a more than adequate measure of accuracy for a STD weight barrel. My Target/varmint rifles all get 5 shots hunting weight barrels all get 3 shot groups.


My K-31's will do that. That doesn't surprise most people though.


As the old saying goes "The proof is in the pudding":neener:

Loanshark
December 20, 2006, 11:46 PM
Just for the reacord 3 shots is a more than adequate measure of accuracy for a STD weight barrel. My Target/varmint rifles all get 5 shots hunting weight barrels all get 3 shot groups.

I didn't say 3 shots wasn't a good measure of accuracy, I said I didn't think it should be called a group. It is in fact a few shots close together. It's the first shot that counts right?

As far as proof goes, come to the range with me and you're welcome to shoot any of my guns you like. Besides, I said the rifle could do it, I didn't say I could. :neener:back!

270Win
December 21, 2006, 01:40 AM
5? 3??

Everyone knows that MEN shoot 10-shot groups, minimum!!!

;)

:neener:

mrmeval
December 21, 2006, 03:57 AM
A friend has reloaded for a K-31 and gotten subMOA groups but he doesn't consider it consistent enough. He's sending the barreled receiver off for cryo-treatment to see if it helps. I would be happy doing .8 MOA - 1.2 MOA groups.

BamBam-31
December 21, 2006, 04:40 AM
Real men shoot eight shot groups. PING! :D

rustymaggot
December 21, 2006, 05:32 AM
hahahahhahahaa.

Vairochana
December 21, 2006, 05:58 AM
Ahh, but an Enfield magazine holds 10:neener:

db_tanker
December 21, 2006, 06:07 AM
The right arm of the free world shoots 20 shot groups... :cool:

I believe Loanshark hit it right though, when saying the first shot is the one that counts.


D

mrmeval
December 21, 2006, 06:27 AM
And an Ishapore 2A1 Enfield holds twelve 7.62 Nato. :evil:

4fingermick
December 21, 2006, 06:37 AM
I bought this old MAS complete with dies and 100 rounds of loaded ammo for $AU150. I normally pull the bullets of any ammo, but this lot had notes with measuremants, etc. I shot a 300yard section of a Palma style shoot without sling, etc as you can see and my first two scoring shots were central bulls! I shot about 85-90% of my normal single shot target rifle score whick is normally shot with sling, jacket and fine target sights. Very Impressive for a cheap fugly french rifle. It's a keeper! Mick.


http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Military%20shooting/b438df1a.jpg

Ian
December 21, 2006, 07:34 AM
Why 3-Shot Groups Aren't Enough (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218), courtesy of AR15.com.

dfaugh
December 21, 2006, 08:59 AM
Actually, I'm not that surprised...I know of a 1893 Turk Mauser, re-arsenalled to 8x57, that shoots under 1.5" 10 shot groups. Using S&B commercial ammo, or handloads. Has the original military ("whippy") barrel, shortened and recrowned (but still like 27" long), mounted in a garage sale heavy target stock ($8!). Action bedded, barrel free-floated, drilled, tapped and bolt bent for $80 Tasco scope. Trigger lightened a bit by cutting off some of the firing pin spring (but ignition is 100% reliable), and smoothing the parts. Barrel was ported on a small drillpress using an endmill. Total cost around $200!

Hoppy590
December 21, 2006, 10:01 AM
we all know real men shoot 3 shots, wrestle with the bolt after it jams, then affix bayonets and charge!

Mosin Nagant style

browningguy
December 21, 2006, 12:35 PM
Nothing personal, but I tend not to worry too much about what folks on AR15.com have to say. I am a member there, but let's face it, that is the home of the "Internet Commando". There are some good people over there, I have an upper built by Marty at Teppu Jutsu for example. In your example on group sizes, any shooter with minimal experience would realize there is a problem if your 3 shot groups are centered in different places every time , it doesn't take an "expert" to know that. And more importantly it does not diminish the value of 3 shot groups in hunting rifles. I don't mind if someone prefers 5,10 or 100 shot groups, but that doesn't make any difference for my uses.

in 35 years of hunting I have never had to shoot more than 3 shots with a big game rifle in the field, so my opinion is that 3 shot groups are just fine. I do shoot larger groups sometimes, here's 5 with the .50 Beowulf:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/beowulfgroup1.jpg
I shoot 5 and 8 round groups with the .50 because sometimes zombies run in packs.:eek:

And somewhere I have pics of 10 and 20 shot groups with the .223's, and 15 shot groups with the Witness Match. But my hunting rifles don't need to do that.

Essex County
December 21, 2006, 01:16 PM
'98 Mauser with a Douglas barrel and flawless metalwork, saftey, trigger, etc. What makes it unusual is that it's in 30-40 Krag, set up as a single shot in a cut down, unrefinished military stock...If this dosen't win the title it should get an honorable mention.......Essex

rugerdude
December 21, 2006, 01:58 PM
My mosin nagant defies all logic by having sights that adjust to 2000 meters.

Mikee Loxxer
December 21, 2006, 02:14 PM
My MAS 36 is also pretty accurate. It is my favorite milsurp right now. We'll see if that is the case after I test drive my K31 this weekend.

MJ
December 21, 2006, 05:00 PM
I had never seen or bore sighted this rifle and took it only as a back up the day I shighted in another #4 Savage. I plan on giving it a good personnel run in next month. But the 41 seems to have a 300 or 350 yrads zero on it as it came. That works good for us. It should not be this after 64 years.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/1941d1006.jpg

Cheers
MJ
:neener:

Antihero
December 21, 2006, 05:45 PM
we all know real men shoot 3 shots, wrestle with the bolt after it jams, then affix bayonets and charge!

Mosin Nagant style

That got a laugh outta me. I want a mosin now.

My mosin nagant defies all logic by having sights that adjust to 2000 meters

This made me laugh as well, but really how usefull is a 2000 meter sight???

Very i say! I usually yake shots at that range anyway:neener:

4fingermick
December 21, 2006, 06:15 PM
I wouldn't be too keen in being out in the open 2000yards/metres/yaks or whatever from a regiment of ruskies who were cranking rounds out of their Mosins at me and my comrades.

texlurch
December 21, 2006, 06:31 PM
I have a Swiss 1911 (precursor of the K31). It was converted to .308 and sporterized back in the 50's, and my dad hunted with it for years.

With off the shelf ammo and a cheap 22 scope, it would shoot one hole groups at 100 yds., in my younger days when I could still see. :cool:

Now I have a nice St. Marie drill and tap mount with a 8x32-44AO scope, and I haven't gotten it dialed in. But I have no fear it will be fine. The barrel on it is free floated in the stock from the receiver forward.

BruceB
December 21, 2006, 07:38 PM
Krochus, how in blazes do you measure a group? That ".80" picture is sure not a .80" group! Measuring center-to-center of bullet impacts, a .30 caliber hole extends to a radius of .15" from the center of the hole. If you measure from the outermost hole edge on one side to widest shot-edge on the other side, and subtract ONE DIAMETER, you have a reasonable approximation of the extreme spread, center to center.

To be a .80" group with .30-caliber bullets, the widest shots can only have one-half inch of paper, BETWEEN the holes. Your photo on my computer screen is smaller than life size, and even at that scale, the distance between widest holes is 3/4" ON THE SCREEN, which makes it likely to be at least an inch between widest holes which in turn means a group of 1.25-1.30". What gives?

Yesterday I fired a ten-round group with my Shiloh Sharps' .45-2.1", and the group formed a single ragged hole. The OUTSIDE maximum width of the hole is 1.30", and subtracting one bullet diameter (.46") gives me a group figure of 0.85".

Incidentally, a "group" is whatever the shooter decides it is, be it three, five or more rounds fired in an effort to see how closely-together the holes will snuggle. For hunting, a single shot fired at the same target on each of several successive days can be educational about just what one's hunting rifle actually does for that critical first shot.

A few years ago, a writer solicited opinions from the various bullet-makers and ballistic labs as to what number of rounds-per-group yielded the most-valid results without going to extremes. The majority opted for seven rounds. This was the smallest number that offered valid statistical results without excessive time, money and components going into the tests.

Most of my 'entertainment' rifle shooting uses my own cast bullets, and since I HAVE time, and I HAVE plenty of inexpensive cast bullets, I shoot ten-round groups for the most part. I find my results to be valid, but there are so many variables when using cast loads that I'll NEVER run out of things to test....which suits me just fine.

R.W.Dale
December 21, 2006, 08:06 PM
Krochus, how in blazes do you measure a group? That ".80" picture is sure not a .80" group! Measuring center-to-center of bullet impacts, a .30 caliber hole extends to a radius of .15" from the center of the hole. If you measure from the outermost hole edge on one side to widest shot-edge on the other side, and subtract ONE DIAMETER, you have a reasonable approximation of the extreme spread, center to center.

Ouside from outside minus one caliber. Just like this pictured group.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/Hpim0330.jpg

That most certianlly is a .80 grouping That's only a 1" dot pictured in the frame. If you'll look closely the extreme spread on that group is about the size of the dot minus one caliber

Unless I can repeat with reasoable accuracy group sizes from a particular load. I disreguard any "lucky" groups as just that luck. What I try to do is record the average group size for a particular load. What I intend to start doing is to file away every group for future refrence per rifle

MJ
December 21, 2006, 08:34 PM
:cool:

Anything in 3 MOA cold shot every time is good to go.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/bkt047.jpg

Cheers
:neener:

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