For the greater good ?


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P95Carry
May 26, 2003, 08:08 PM
Just some musings from an ol fart .... as ever perpetually irritated and distressed, by the seeming inexhorable onslaught on the 2nd.

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For the greater good


Everyone see the meaning of this? I'd very much wish that the anti gun crowd would take it on board ..... the way I am meaning it ... and not ''their way''. And how exactly DO I mean it?

Remember cases in warfare, where relatively small ''friendly'' losses had to be planned for .... the better to minimize later losses of substantially higher numbers? Well that is the principle I eschew, when it comes to firearms and their possession and carrying thereof. Let's be quite clear tho ...... I am applying this to sensible, law abiding folk ...... the crooks will always make up and have their own rules ..... besides which there are way more laws than needed to be sufficient to deal with them, if applied...... we don't need more.

Let us play with figures. Take 1 million legitimate gun owners, who also have CCW. Let us then theorize and say that this figure effectively reduces armed crime and assault on the person by ... what? Let's pick 50% as an easy figure (this is purely for illustrative purposes). Now let's take things a stage further and suggest that out of this 1 mil figure, ten legit' owners/carriers nation wide commit some crime ... up to and including homicide. Bad news? yeah, sure, very bad but ........

That leaves 999,990 perfectly safe and reliable owners and carriers .. still, by their armed ''presence'' helping keep crime depressed and society safer. In percentage terms, those 10 represent ...... 0.001% of the total. Maybe in recent times we might say one of these was the ''DC Sniper'' ..... or a school shooter .... whatever. Is it tho now justifiable, thru those few transgressions, to label the other 99.999% of safe owners as unsafe, criminals, and madmen? I think not.

This is why I make a big deal about ''the greater good'' ........ even tho there is no way I can see, whereby you could possibly guarantee that no one with a firearm will ever do anything stupid ....... surely the overall benefit far outweighs the relatively small (if tragic) losses. That is why I draw the warfare parallel. Thus ...... ''for the greater good''.

If the 99.999% of owners and carriers are penalized - for the wrongdoings of a miniscule minority then firstly, where is the justice in that and second ......... how would that equate to the predictable rocketing of crime figures that would follow a banning of civilian possession.

I am playing with extremes here, but purely to make a point ..... in part, maybe, thinking out load! But - is it then, in all honesty ...... either fair, wise, or even justified for ''security'' reasons ....... to try and disarm people ...... unless of course there is a greater and more hidden agenda?

That fellow shooters is another ball game entirely! Maybe someone elses ''for the greater good''????????

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RON in PA
May 26, 2003, 08:14 PM
i fully agree with you. One problem is that we live in times of "zero tolerance". The bliss ninnies can't abide with the idea that there might be some risk in any facet of living.

Mark Tyson
May 27, 2003, 08:39 AM
You don't take away a person's freedom without a darn good reason. The only reason to take away someone's guns is if he/she has proven irresponsible, violent or mentally unstable.

Tamara
May 27, 2003, 08:44 AM
The greater good shouldn't matter.

If every other gun owner in America committed a crime tomorrow, it has no bearing on my right to own a weapon.

geekWithA.45
May 27, 2003, 07:14 PM
Tamara:

You're absolutely right, and have hit the nail on the head. My Unaleinable rights are not dependent on the good behaviour of any other person or group.

Peetmoss
May 27, 2003, 07:34 PM
Tammara you are right, well sorta right. The only reason we have guns today is because 99.99 percent of gun owners are lawabiding citizens. Lets just say that the percent of law abbiding gun owners changed to say 50 percent or so. The other side would likely have enough votes to ammend the Constitution and negate the 2nd or cripple it so badly that it would be meaningless. Then all our guns go bye bye.

Everyone of our rights can be taken away by the failsafe built into the Constitution.

Feanaro
May 27, 2003, 08:28 PM
You don't take away a person's freedom without a darn good reason.

Wrong. You NEVER do so, for any reason. Once taken freedom often stays taken. So any loss of liberty is NEVER an option.

Tamara
May 27, 2003, 08:45 PM
The other side would likely have enough votes to ammend the Constitution and negate the 2nd or cripple it so badly that it would be meaningless.

If the other side had enough votes to "take away" your right to pray to Whoever you wanted, read whatever you wanted, or say whatever you wanted, would those rights really be gone, or would you merely be oppressed?

A Right suppressed is not a Right non-existant.

Skunkabilly
May 27, 2003, 08:48 PM
"Greater Good" is BS. Society is made up of individuals. You can't make society better while stripping the liberties of the individual.

Duh.:cuss:

Standing Wolf
May 27, 2003, 09:00 PM
The so-called "greater good" is communitarian thinking, and it's plain old-fashioned evil.

Rights are intrinsic, not negotiable.

DigitalWarrior
May 28, 2003, 12:07 AM
INDIVIDUALISM

Ayn Rand said it best. And at length. Over and over. Without end.

Why is it that I seem to have such an affinity for Russian Jews?
;)

Zundfolge
May 28, 2003, 12:28 AM
For the greater good = the collective over the individual

no good can come from that.

Al Norris
May 28, 2003, 01:27 AM
Peetmoss wrote:
The other side would likely have enough votes to ammend the Constitution and negate the 2nd or cripple it so badly that it would be meaningless.
IIRC, because 5 of the original 13 States ( Massachusetts, South Carolina, New Hampshire, Virginia, and New York.) insisted upon a Bill of Rights (else they wouldn't sign the Constitution), there are considerable opinions from Constitutional scholars that to do ANYTHING to the BOR would invalidate the Constitutional compact itself. This is evident because of the manner of ratification.

There was a reason the Founders insisted that the BOR was worded as Articles added to the Constitution and not mere amendments as all others are known. As articles, they hold a preeminent position, over and above any other amendment.

I suspect that if anything could or would cause a rebellion, tampering with the BOR would certainly qualify in the minds of most, if not all Americans, even today.

Nestor
May 28, 2003, 03:28 PM
What, have a problem with the Tau.

(thats a War Hammer 40000 joke)
http://www.gamesworkshop.com/40kuniverse/warhammer40k/tau/Tau_index/Tau_index.htm

Poodleshooter
May 28, 2003, 04:11 PM
would those rights really be gone, or would you merely be oppressed?
True, you'd be oppressed, not "missing a right". Of course the real question is: "Could you tell the difference between the effect of those two options?"
A right that exists only in your mind is worthless.

Dave R
May 28, 2003, 05:45 PM
Another facet of Tamara's point...

The primary reason the founding fathers created a Republic and not a Democracy is to prevent TYRRANY OF THE MAJORITY and to protect minority rights/individual rights.

That's the main reason for the Bill of Rights, too.

benewton
May 28, 2003, 05:54 PM
SW has it right.

Rights are not negotiable.

If they were, they wouldn't be rights, by definition.,

earl_simmons
May 28, 2003, 06:00 PM
I support the theory of actions "for the greater good" in certain instances. I support killing hundreds of innocent Iraqis to free millions of other Iraqis. I support stripping certain felons of certain freedoms. Life is complicated.

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