Anybody willing to let someone shoot at them?


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spin180
January 6, 2003, 04:16 AM
I was watching Fox Magazine (on the FNC), which was showing some of the more popular stories that aired over the last year. One of the first that was shown was a bit about defense, awareness, etc. in the wake of the Sept. 11th attacks (a related article can be found here: FNC Article (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,37795,00.html) .

In this piece, Fox reporter Rick Leventhal visited Crucible Security Specialists to learn about such matters. To the credit of the folks at Crucible Security Specialists, the tactics and ideas they presented were very good. However, one thing they did left me conwildered and befused. :confused:

To wit, the incident in particular involved the FNC reporter, the CEO of Crucible Security, and two other unidentified chaps sitting at one end of a rather large, open area outdoors. They were seated a few feet away from a dirt embankment, with a target stand directly behind them. The stand rose above them about 4-5 feet and attached to it was one of those plastic/foam human-like target torsos. It was dressed so as to simulate the upper-half of an individual. With the four fellows seated, a sniper and scout, as described by the report, proceeded 'up-range' into a treeline and took up position. Upon the word of the CEO, the sniper fired four rounds at the target, and consequently at the men seated underneath it. From what I could tell, the target was struck twice and there were two misses, from a stated distance of 230 yards.

I could not determine what this had to do with the the rest of the report, as the other parts all dealt with actual self-defense techniques involving hand-to-hand fighting, firearms tactic, and the like. During the "sniping" exhibition, the CEO prodded the reporter to determine the location of the shooter, but that was all that was really spoken about.

That not-withstanding though, how incredibly stupid was this? I'm really aghast that anyone would try a stunt like that, no matter how good the shooter is.

Perhaps someone else saw the show and can clue me in as to something I missed. I understand this report originally aired before the D.C., VA, MD shootings, so it was not a tie-in to that incident.

I guess I'm really dumbfounded by stupidity. :scrutiny:

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Azrael256
January 6, 2003, 05:32 AM
It's called a confidence drill. I think it's more than just a little bit on the crazy side, but to each his own, right? The thing that I find amusing is the two misses part. 230 yards isn't very far for a well-trained marksman with a high-grade rifle and scope, particularly on a human-size target. Maybe it was just really windy.

sanchezero
January 6, 2003, 06:16 AM
Yeah, misses at 230???

:eek:

I wouldn't let that guy build my confidence.

telewinz
January 6, 2003, 07:32 AM
I will be issued a "bullet resistant" vest at work soon. My son is still negotiating with me as to what caliber I'll let him shoot me with to test the vest. He said he loved me when he left for college yesterday, he was smiling when he said it but I still believe him.:D

Hkmp5sd
January 6, 2003, 07:39 AM
Anybody willing to let someone shoot at them?

Nope.

Why take unnecessary risks during training? Did the guys sitting there effect the ability of the shooter to hit the target?

Just a staged stunt done for the benefit of the camera.

Kahr carrier
January 6, 2003, 08:49 AM
No way Jose .:neener:

foghornl
January 6, 2003, 08:59 AM
Willing to let someone shoot at me ? ? ? ? ? ?

Not in ALL of our combined lifetimes.

Tamara
January 6, 2003, 10:01 AM
Did you know that live people sit as hostages when some of the real Jedi (SAS, FBI HRT, Delta, etc.) do their clearing drills?

Sitting still while some sniper 200+ yards away pops a target five feet away from you is one thing, sitting in a room while a bunch of door-kickers come in with submachineguns and hose targets all around you comlpetely redefines the word "trust" as far as I'm concerned.:eek:

concerned citizen
January 6, 2003, 10:11 AM
No thanks..:scrutiny:

buzz_knox
January 6, 2003, 10:32 AM
There are a couple of instructors who have one student stand beside the target while the other student shoots it. It's supposed to make the shooter realize the importance of precision and concentration while the "shootee" learns to deal with having a weapon fired in his direction.

One such instructor is in TN. My brother-in-law and I took one of his courses and then ran when we heard the description of the other course.

Jesse H
January 6, 2003, 11:10 AM
Sitting still while some sniper 200+ yards away pops a target five feet away from you is one thing, sitting in a room while a bunch of door-kickers come in with submachineguns and hose targets all around you comlpetely redefines the word "trust" as far as I'm concerned.

EEEKS. I read something very similar to that in Clancy's "Rainbow Six" but figured it was highly fictional considering the risks.

buzz_knox
January 6, 2003, 11:19 AM
Nope. Not fictional. If you watch some of the documentaries, you can see SEALs and HRT doing exactly this: live fire exercises with live "hostages" to be recovered. A valuable training technique to be sure but I don't think I could do it without losing control of various bodily functions.

Coronach
January 6, 2003, 11:37 AM
I'm not sure which would be more stressful...being the guy acting as hostage, or the guy going through the door and hosing targets around his drinking buddies.

:what:

Mike

Blackhawk
January 6, 2003, 11:39 AM
Yes.

Well, I was.

They did too, and they weren't trying to miss. They were trying to knock me out of the sky. It was a war.

Being willing to be shot at was a job requirement.

For the Army and Marines, it still is.

Winston Churchill's comment about his experiences in the Boer war are true: "There's nothing as exilhirating as being shot at with no ill effect." (Maybe pax has the exact quote.)

ahenry
January 6, 2003, 11:47 AM
Always kinda wanted to see how I’d react. Never had the option, so its always been an academic question. To really answer though, I suppose I would if it was somebody I knew doing the shooting. Guess that makes me sorta nuts. Then again, I think people that handle snakes are nuts...

El Rojo
January 6, 2003, 12:14 PM
I don't remember the two misses. I remember him having a couple head shots, and then his body shots weren't really center of mass, but they were on target. And the people were more than five feet away, not much farther, but not quite that close. I didn't think it was that big of a deal. 230 yards is easy enough to send bullets into a 6" circle with great consistency.

Other than the huge berm of earth and wood between you, that drill and pulling targets at a highpower match isn't all that different.

2nd Amendment
January 6, 2003, 12:14 PM
Like Blackhawk says, in a war it's part of the job, but in training? Only if I get to shoot back...at close range. Whose confidence is this supposed to building, anyway? :confused:

cola8d8
January 6, 2003, 12:20 PM
I dont think there were 2 misses, I know one hit the pumpkin (in addition to the 2 on the target) next to them. Im sure this was to show the damage being done to the pumpkin, for what thats worth. I dont remember about the 4th.

Frohickey
January 6, 2003, 12:21 PM
Sure.

Me in a buttoned-up M1A2 Main Battle Tank.
The guy shooting at me with a 22short.

HS/LD
January 6, 2003, 12:26 PM
Tamara: Did you know that live people sit as hostages when some of the real Jedi (SAS, FBI HRT, Delta, etc.) do their clearing drills?

Been there done that actually have the t-shirt. :D


I have been shot at.
Once by somone I "let " shoot me.
He shot me in the chest with a BHP.
Didn't even hurt.
9mm wimp bullets :D

We used to shoot in the general direction of other troops quite often. Especially fun shooting at the mechanics. They would stage a hostile situation breakdown and get to work repairing the vehicle. We would shoot their equipment :D

Regards,
HS/LD


Disclaimer: Don't try any of this at home ever. We were high most of the time and drunk the rest.... (just kidding ) :D

MLH
January 6, 2003, 12:53 PM
:what: Are you crazy? That's why I carry a CCW because I DON'T want anyone shooting at me!:rolleyes:

Tamara
January 6, 2003, 01:29 PM
The HRT has a stunt they occasionally put on for visiting VIP's. They put you in a room, interspersed amongst "hostile" targets. Then they turn the lights out. In the darkness, you hear the door slam open, shuffling boots and *phut-clack-phut* noises, and feel the air disturbed around you.

When the lights come back on, all the targets have holes in them, and you have a Post-It note on your back that says "You have just been rescued by the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team". :eek:

All these units have a rule that says you sit as a hostage as often as you shoot. George Bush Sr. nearly caused his Secret Service guards to have a heart attack when, while he was Vice President, he wanted to sit as a hostage for a Delta Force clearing drill. Much to the amusement of the Delta operators, the Secret Service agreed only if Bush would wear a bulletproof vest and sit behind a lexan shield. The British royal family sits as hostages for the SAS once a year, too. IIRC, Di got her 'do singed by powder burns one time.

50 Shooter
January 6, 2003, 01:33 PM
I've stood 20ft away from a 1K target calling shots for the guys I shoot .50's with. Of course they weren't shooting while I was calling them but while standing out there I did notice that even at 1K yards, the sonic crack of a .50 round is loud!

We have upgraded though, we now use a video camera and a IR link to watch where the rounds impact.

HS/LD
January 6, 2003, 01:42 PM
That is true about the sitting/shooting rule.

I remember being in the kill house one time and being scared sh*tless when a trooper from Britain (that I had had no experience with) button holed a door in the dark.
I had NVG on and was sitting in a chair in front of the BG target.

It looked to me like he pointed the MP5 RIGHT AT MY HEAD.:what:
I think a screamed (like a girl) three times longer than the burst lasted. :)

No singed hair but I had another mark on my clothes :D

Regards,
HS/LD

cordex
January 6, 2003, 01:45 PM
The HRT has a stunt they occasionally put on for visiting VIP's. They put you in a room, interspersed amongst "hostile" targets. Then they turn the lights out. In the darkness, you hear the door slam open, shuffling boots and *phut-clack-phut* noises, and feel the air disturbed around you.
I've heard of this before. It sounds ... interesting.

Look, I know a lot of people here might have the intestinal fortitude to sit still while people are blasting around you in the dark, and if you were in such a situation you'd be just fine. As for me, even knowing full well that the operators were UberShooters, I'd attempt to make myself very scarce as soon as I heard people throwing lead, which would likely lead to my being perforated.

Still, it'd definitely be an experience.

Oatka
January 6, 2003, 01:54 PM
I think it was the History Channel that showed some 1930-40 footage of a Marine shooting a 30 ca. air-cooled machine gun. He was firing short bursts, taking out the bullseye. The thing was, he was shooting at a target held by another Marine who was walking towards him from about 20 yards to just a few feet away.

Thought that was a cool-not-to-be-seen-today routine until I read the above on the hostage scenarios.

OTOH, we've all seen people who want to be shot at (they think). I'm referring to those posturing imbeciles who are going over to Iraq to act as human shields for Saddam under the delusion that "Bush won't shoot at Westerners". Like one guy said, "Gee, we get two-for-one in that war." ;)

WyldOne
January 6, 2003, 02:41 PM
MLH:
Are you crazy? That's why I carry a CCW because I DON'T want anyone shooting at me!

LOL completely took the words right off my keyboard! :)

(edit: 'cept I don't exactly "carry a CCW"....but that is why I got into this whole thing, anyway)

Mike Irwin
January 6, 2003, 02:44 PM
Sure.

You can shoot at me.

You get a .45 ACP, and have to stand 300 meters from me.

I, on the other hand, get my .243 groundhog gun with the 6.5x18 Leupold scope.

Hell, I'll even be big about it and give you the first 10 shots.

King
January 6, 2003, 02:47 PM
I'll pass also...especially at 230 yards. These guys must have had a lot of confidence in the shooter. I'm betting that the trigger man practiced that shot at that location quite a few times before the gent took a seat (the old behind the scenes practive session).

Still, no way........

:eek

4v50 Gary
January 6, 2003, 04:30 PM
Actually, this stunt is nothing new and during the American Revolution, the Shain brothers use to demonstrate their prowess and trust in each other's marksmanship with the rifle by one bro. holding a marked shingle between his legs and the other brother shooting the mark (over 100 yards distance). Likewise, during the Napoleonic era, one British officer and an enlisted man (forgot their names) performed the same stunt at over 100 yards. However, they would hold the target out to the side with both arms. Annie Oakley use to do it too. More recently (back in the '50s or so), t a Southern CA police department (could have been San Diego) pistol team use to shoot cigarettes out of each other's mouth. They used 38 special revolvers. They showed us this tape at a training class last year and we were all aghast. :eek:

BTW, the question should be: "Would anyone let someone shoot towards you?" ;)

GD
January 6, 2003, 05:42 PM
I have gone dove hunting with a bunch of guys. We position ourselves about 100 yards apart. When the shooting gets intense it is not unusual to start getting hit with birdshot. It is somewhat painful but in some sense exhilerating - Surviving getting shot repeatedly! It never breaks the skin.

Pappy John
January 6, 2003, 05:56 PM
There's only one friend I would trust to do this. Seen him take groundhogs at 400+ yards more than once. But he has more common sense that to be involved with a shot like that. And so do I.

Owen
January 6, 2003, 09:47 PM
At the Crucible, chances are the shooter was Jim Owens, a fairly legendary sniper.

Owen

cardboardkiller
January 6, 2003, 11:47 PM
I'll trade shots with someone, 10 yards any weapon you want, I'll take my 458 Win Mag and the first shot.:neener:

Double Naught Spy
January 7, 2003, 12:18 AM
I think a number of y'all misunderstood the circumstances. The people seated near the targets were NOT being shot at, but the target was. The people near the target were simply that, near the target (but not the target).

Is there a difference? Sure. The shooter isn't trying to hit you.

Is this stupid? Sure. The drill by itself isn't too bad so long as everything goes as planned. What makes it bad or most risky is that things often don't go as planned. Once somebody finally gets shot doing this, it will be clear to everyone around the event as just how stupid it was.

Thumper
January 7, 2003, 12:44 AM
Hey, Wyldone made it over here!

They aired that piece awhile back, IIRC. I remember Rosenthal being pretty quick with his tap-rack-bang when his G-lock failed.

answerguy
January 7, 2003, 09:11 AM
I would think everyone here has seen the footage of an exec from a manufacturer of bullet proof vests taking a round in the gut. There was one time when he shot himself and IIRC another time when he let someone else do the shooting. There may have also been a reporter testing one of the vests also.

rock jock
January 7, 2003, 12:33 PM
Oh sure. When I was a kid my father used to stand me next to a tree with an apple on my head and......., oh, you've probably heard this story before.:D

Don Gwinn
January 7, 2003, 01:07 PM
In one of the old Robin Hood movies, Howard Hill did the archery and it was all real. He shot the stuntmen 45 times! They wore 12" x 14" foam pads backed by steel plates the same size, and he had to hit that target 45 times from all angles and distances. Brave men with a great deal of trust.

Don Gwinn
January 7, 2003, 01:14 PM
Other than the huge berm of earth and wood between you, that drill and pulling targets at a highpower match isn't all that different.

Yeah, other than that one teensy little detail . . . .

El Rojo
January 7, 2003, 02:09 PM
Don why were you the only one to figure out that minor detail missing? :D

In all honesty, I don't see how a guy laying prone with a bipod and a nice rifle can't hit a 6" cirlce all day long at 230 yards. You would pretty much have to have a heart attack and jerk the trigger like never before in order to get that bullet to go the other direction.

Now that I think about it, when we call coyotes we sometimes have to shoot in the general direction of each other. The guy with the rifle is usually up the hill about 50 to 75 yards behind the shotgunner that is lying down or sitting in a juniper bush. We never shoot if the coyote is directly over the shotgunner, but the bullets head that general direction.

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