Slight annoyance at range yesterday


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mstirton
December 23, 2006, 07:14 PM
A dad shows up at range with 2 kids and the older (10-11) shoots a MkII. I don't think he aimed once. 10 shots in under 5 seconds every time. I think he hit the target at 10' about 5 times in 100 shots. Safety was good at least except for the muzzle flipping around and careless bullet spray. I liked to do the same as a kid with my 10/22, but only after I learned to hit something. Should I have said anything?

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mustanger98
December 23, 2006, 07:19 PM
Should I have said anything?

I don't know whether you should have or not. Me being me, I'd have probably dropped a hint, but not being there, I don't know how I would have. "Hose 'em down runnin'" ain't the best way to let a kid just run with it. This kid needs to slow down, learn to hit with each shot, and he'll get faster with the accurate follow-up shots. Building speed first ain't gonna build accuracy. I'm agreeing with you. But some people, you can't talk to 'em.

Missashot
December 23, 2006, 07:22 PM
It was very irritating I'm sure. But realistically, what could you have said? As long as they were being safe, not too much can be said just because they were shooting poorly and not even trying to hit the target. Hopefully in the near future, the kid will settle down soon and start wanting to hit the target.:)

nramember2
December 23, 2006, 08:19 PM
I would have been glad to see the father taking the kid shooting, They are the future of our sport. I still like to "spray and pray" sometimes, Just to hear stuff go bang.

By the way, shooting ranges are loud.

Pumpkinheaver
December 23, 2006, 08:28 PM
I spray and spray myself sometimes. You ever bumpfire an AK no aiming involved, pointing yes, but aiming no.

earplug
December 23, 2006, 08:33 PM
I'm kicking myself for not doing what I thought about, offering to pay a dollar if they can keep ten shots in the black at 7-10 yards or what ever.

mstirton
December 23, 2006, 08:43 PM
It is against this club's rules to rapid fire and, although I don't entirely agree with this, it makes sense when it is someone (ie. a little kid) who can't control his shots. The backstop is about 8' high and we're not supposed to shoot into the upper 2'. Past the backstop and about 2 or 3 miles downrange is a neighborhood and highway 290. I probably should have let them in on that closely kept secret "know your target and beyond". Anyway, it wasn't that big a deal, I should probably be a little more confrontational (in a good way).

good idea earplug

gezzer
December 23, 2006, 09:19 PM
Fudd club no rapid fire. Why bother going there I thought TX was a big state that likes guns.

You said the kid wasn't unsafe and you yourself shoot a 10-22 that way. IMHO MYOB

Mr White
December 23, 2006, 09:28 PM
The range I shoot at has no rules for rapid fire and on every trip I usually let my boys rip off a few mags from whatever I have along that day. Hell, I even rip off a few myself. A few mags here and there is one thing. spending your whole range trip wasting ammo is a completely different story IMO. Just out of courtesty, I wouldn't rip off too many mags if there were other shooters at the range.

For the most part, when we shoot, we shoot from the bench or from position for score. I usually set up little matches for the boys (12 and 10) to compete for some stupid prize, like who gets to ride shotgun on the way home, or loser has to clean the 10/22, or something like that. They learn technique and safety on every trip and I seen nothing wrong with a little reward of getting to waste a few rounds of ammo.

But really, as long as they're not breaking any range rules, what can you say w/o sounding like a busybody a$$hat? As long as they're obeying range rules, how they choose to spend their range time and ammunition budget is their business.

I actually had a guy once tell me that shooting as fast as I was couldn't be accurate and that I should slow down and I'd hit the target more. I was practicing rapid fire sitting with my AR at the time. I went out and retrieved the target and shot a 10 round string of 96-3X. I made it a point to show it to the guy and made the comment "not bad for inaccurate rapid fire, huh?"

Joe Demko
December 23, 2006, 09:56 PM
If no safety rules were broken, you should worry about how well you shoot and let them worry about how well they shoot. Unsolicited advice is more than a slight annoyance.

Stevie-Ray
December 23, 2006, 11:05 PM
I spray and pray once in a while with the G26. Fun. Always with a new target, and always to see how many I can get in the black. Now that I can get them in the black I'll try to tighten it more.:D

Don't think I would have said anything, so long as safety was being observed. But it sorta makes you wanna keep your eye on them. And that would screw up my day.

DMK
December 23, 2006, 11:23 PM
Safety was good at least except for the muzzle flipping around and careless bullet spray... Should I have said anything?
Quite honestly, and I hope you don't take offense, but what business was it of yours? As long as he wasn't doing anything to hinder your safety or good time?

I get out there with my nephew and my AK sometimes and bang away at 25 yards with the stock folded, just to have fun and release some tension. I'm sure it could bug the guy next to me making tiny groups at 100 yards with his bolt action varmint rifle. However, it's my range too. I payed my fee. I bought the ammo. It's within my rights to just go make some noise for no good reason.

Some days I'm the guy with the scoped rifle trying to print tiny groups. If someone's in the next lane banging away, I'm just glad he's a gun buyer having fun and not someone who'll likely send money to Sara Brady or vote for Hillary Clinton.

mustanger98
December 23, 2006, 11:44 PM
Don't get me wrong; I've been known to rip off a couple of mags (or clips if I'm shooting the M1 Garand that day), but I'm simply of the opinion that a kid needs to learn to shoot before they learn to spray. That's how I learned... slow fire to see where I was hitting. I was so intent on hitting my target I didn't know I was missing so much fun trying to imitate a machine gun.

This thread also reminds me of this one time at my local club's range. There's an older gentleman who likes to sit down at the bench and print groups with his .22's. Another guy there- he's a Class 3 hobbyist as well as being into sillouette, benchrest, service rifle and whatever else he likes. Well, both of those guys were there one day when I got there. The second guy was going to function fire his newly aquired M-16. I was going to function fire my M1 Garand after I'd gotten it cleaned up and a new op rod spring. So me and this other guy both... we slung up with our respective rifles and let 'er rip... him with a 20rd mag while I ripped through two en blocs. The .22 guy... he's sittin' down there at the other end with no hearing protection... go figure... he's complainin' about "man, yo guns are loud". Now, ya'll probably think me and the M-16er were shootin' at nothin', but we weren't. Or at least I wasn't... I picked out a rock and blasted away and most rounds came close. Right then, I just wanted to know I could run it wide open and not dump half a clip.

51Cards
December 24, 2006, 02:54 AM
My range is pretty informal about things. If any of us have a problem with someone's safety, etiquette, or if they're hosing and out of control, we talk to the RO.

Some of us rapid-fire sometimes. Hitting the rings at about 2.5 secs. per 7 rds of .45 is an exercise. Hitting the black with 10 rds of .22 in a few secs. is also fun. Watching someone bankshot rds off the floor in an indoor range stinks.

It's great that the kid was even there. But control is the issue. Maybe next time he rips out 9, and the 10th goes --- where?

I don't know what I'd have done in your spot. Here in Jolly LI, ya have to be 50 to legally hold a pistol-type-automatic-hand-gun. :D Which also stinks.

How was dad doing??? :D

Justin
December 24, 2006, 02:59 AM
I don't offer unsolicited advice.

ReadyontheRight
December 24, 2006, 03:57 AM
Should I have said anything?

SINCE YOU ARE ASKING.... no.

SwampFox
December 24, 2006, 04:00 AM
Firing fast and missing the target is not unsafe if there is good backstop.

Let the kids have fun.

Deavis
December 24, 2006, 07:21 AM
You know the saying about opinions, so unless they were a threat to you, mind your own business. Then again, here I am offering my opinion! :p

Wedge
December 24, 2006, 09:55 AM
Were you out in Manor? I thought that range was closing.

Anyways, my only annoyance at the range yesterday was my poor performance.

There was a guy next to me that brought his nephew with. We were at the 15 yard stand and the boy wasn't shooting so well (a Beretta 92, 9mm), like half of his shots hit the paper and half didn't. I thought about recommending going to the 7 yard range but then figured I would MYOB. The uncle was keeping him safe (like from shooting me) and he was only shooting one shot at a time.

My range has a no rapid fire as well.

Tom Servo
December 24, 2006, 11:59 AM
Firing fast and missing the target is not unsafe if there is good backstop.
Unless he blows down the target lines and/or carrier. We get this alot at the range where I shoot. It's always rapid-fire Cleetus with the Glock 40 and his friends.

If they're not doing anything unsafe, I just wait for them to realize how much all that ammo's costing them before they stop. I only know of one range around here that has a no-rapid-fire policy, and I got called out for doing controlled double-taps. "No more than two shots per second!" was their rule. MMM-kay.

tubeshooter
December 24, 2006, 12:05 PM
I think I would have left it alone. The statements in the thread about 'unsolicited advice' ring true, and you say they were being safe. Let ammo prices reign 'em in...


earplug's idea is about as good as I could think of if I were going to remotely bother with it.

Sean Dempsey
December 24, 2006, 12:07 PM
It would have been pretty uncalled for to say something. They were being safe, leave them alone.

Just because they weren't shooting how you want doesn't mean they were shooting "wrong".

If you were shooting hoops at the local rec-center, and the kids weren't shooting their free-throws properly, would you get annoyed and want to say something? Unless they're throwing the ball at your head. mind your own business.

The dad probably would have socked you in the face, anyways.

ChickenHawk
December 24, 2006, 03:40 PM
Past the backstop and about 2 or 3 miles downrange is a neighborhood and highway 290.
Sounds like you were at the ARC range to me. If so, your membership agreement (you're about to renew probably so you get to read it again) says that you SHOULD speak up if you see other members or guests misbehaving.

If you read in the paper the next day that someone was killed downrange because of stray shots, or if somebody finds holes in their house's siding and the range is forced to close would you think you did the right thing?

Those rules really are pretty important. I would have quietly mentioned to the parent that range rules require "Aimed shots" and that there is danger of strays going over the berm and harming someone.

If that doesn't work I would have called the club president with a license number.

Yes, the club takes it that seriously. Truly.

Stay safe,
ChickenHawk

51Cards
December 24, 2006, 03:54 PM
ChickenHawk, ++

We can be Yule logs together and get flamed. :D

PS
A few years ago, we had a range close down because of a couple of 9mm that sailed into a living room some distance past the berm. Place called Calverton.

Monkeybear
December 24, 2006, 04:45 PM
I don't offer unsolicited advice.

Exactly. For me, teaching a new shooter, after covering safety I always let them spend some time spraying ammo. Its a good way to get over the novelty of shooting, concentrating on safety, and generally having fun.

ChickenHawk
December 24, 2006, 05:11 PM
Many of you guys have missed the point that what was going on here was NOT safe.

They may have been pointing down range, but ranges like this require you to insure your shots impact the berm. Kids firing that rapidly have a pretty slim chance of keeping them all inside the berm.

The range I think was described is a private range with no RO on duty. The members police themselves. Allowing unsafe activity simply isn't an option.

This range is already 20 miles outside of town. Moving further would be insane for regular users. But, that kind of behaviuor will accellerate things if people permit it to happen.

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

gezzer
December 25, 2006, 12:09 AM
A few years ago, we had a range close down because of a couple of 9mm that sailed into a living room some distance past the berm.

Fix the berm it is not safe in the first place.

gunsmith
December 25, 2006, 12:27 AM
this guy is obviously the type of gun nut that Mike Moore warned us about...probably keeps loaded guns for his kids to take to school and kill teachers.



























:neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

51Cards
December 25, 2006, 12:38 AM
The berm has been heightened in the past few years. Apparently, the incident was a "sky shot." What goes up ...

ArchAngelCD
December 25, 2006, 02:15 AM
Look at it this way, if you were at the range and NOT breaking any rules, what you say to someone who talked at you without you asking for their opinion. I would tell you to STFU and MYOFB!!! Nothing worse than some loud mouth bothering me while I'm shooting and not breaking any rules. It's a good way to start a fight, especially if you're talking about one of my kids.

BTW, the range I go to allows only 3 rounds in a rifle at a time so it's never happened to me, but if it did that would be my reaction.

Everyone likes to make noise sometimes, no harm, no foul IMO.

mstirton
December 25, 2006, 01:55 PM
thanks guys, Chickenhawk is right though. Thinking back, some of those rounds easily could have been fired at 30 deg. My problem wasn't with the rapid fire itself, it was that the kid couldn't control it and that can't happen at this particular range. I was rapid firing my Buckmark a couple times too, but that was into the center of the target. Problem is we want to shoot in the middle of nowhere and not worry about where the bullets land, but I already have to drive 45 minutes just to get where the range is now.

brownie0486
December 25, 2006, 02:23 PM
The backstop is 8 feet high?:cuss:

Thats about as unsafe as I've heard, to let anyone shoot at a backstop that small thats open and doesn't have range officers there.

I think they should close it down immediately, before someone gets killed downrange. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when with an 8 foot backstop to begin with.

Brownie

redneck2
December 25, 2006, 02:28 PM
If it was putting you or someone else (or property) in danger, IMO you are morally obligated to intervene

It it was not putting you or someone else (or property) in danger, IMO you should MYOB

I've got an idea....why don't you just tell everyone here that has FA Class III that they're total idiots and to knock it off. Better yet, go to Knob Creek and tell them they're fools for blasting off all that ammo.

Medusa
December 25, 2006, 02:39 PM
Well, MYOB. Also, the backstop is too low, as already said. If they would want your advice they would ask for it, otherwise if the safety rules are followed, see the first sentence in this post.

One of my outdoor pistol ranges have a safety feature - 5 metres downrange there's a stack of logs above the lanes (there's only a couple of those, between 2 dirtwalls), starting from, say, 2 m above ground and is ~3 m high. Thus you'd have to deliberately shoot over 45 degrees to put one onto ballistic trajectory.

Wedge
December 25, 2006, 02:50 PM
I recently shot my CHL test at ARC and I think that berm was about 8' tall for the pistol range. I think that is more than adequate for a pistol range assuming safe handling.

Where I normally shoot the berm is closer to 15' tall.

Maybe you should have said something, but if you were also rapid firing it is hard to say much...perhaps just a passing mention to make sure to keep it under control or keep the shots below the berm would have been okay. On my range day I didn't say anything since the uncle was watching for safety and I would have been doing is critiquing his ability to teach...

I didn't realize that they didn't have an RO. I have gotten "the look" for shooting twice in 1 second at my range.

brownie0486
December 25, 2006, 02:54 PM
An 8 foot berm is not a backstop, it's a small dirtpile that someone is allowing to be shot into.:banghead:

Brownie

ChickenHawk
December 25, 2006, 03:13 PM
Sheesh,

I really need to stop arguing with people on the internet. It's bad for my blood pressure.

I care about this range though, and I can tell you it is perfectly safe. I don't honestly know the hight of the berms, but they are quite a bit taller than 8 feet. I would put the pistol range at twice that, but I'm just guessing.

Here's an arial shot of the range from a few years ago. You wouldn't be seeing those berms if they were just 8 feet. The pistol range is the small one 2nd from the left. There are five ranges there varying from 25 ft to 300 yards. This is one of the finest ranges I have shot on. A really nice place.

It'll take one careless shooter to put us out of business.

Those who say MYOB just don't get it. This is a club. Club members take care of the range. Club members are responsible for the range.

ajkurp
December 25, 2006, 10:48 PM
...and enjoy life. Live and let live. Don't be a petty tyrant. Become one with the universe.

hobbeeman
December 26, 2006, 12:48 AM
When I was first taking my son, then 11, out to the club, I was still a newbie at this club. One of the club members observed me interacting with my son. This guy approached me during a break in the shooting and complimented me on my boy and the fine job that I was doing, introducing him to shooting. He then shared with me his stories of training his own kids, now adults, and asked if I would mind him helping me. His experience was/is inspiring, and I gladly welcomed the opportunity for my son to learn from a master. The lessons he taught to my son not only improved his shooting but I was able to glean some valuable lessons as well.

I find that when you act with respect and a genuine concern, people are often very receptive :)

Merry Christmas

David

MisterPX
December 26, 2006, 01:06 AM
Did you see where his rounds were going? If they weren't clearing the berm, then mind your own business, Just blasting away is fun, would you keep shooting if it sucked?

redneck2
December 26, 2006, 01:55 PM
I care about this range though, and I can tell you it is perfectly safe.
I worked in a gun shop that has an indoor range. There are holes in the ceiling just a few feet forward of the firing line. There are bullet marks on the walls, the floor, and some of the partitions between the shooters....:what:

If anyone has a hard time believing this, I'll give you the address and you can go look for yourself

If you have a range, and it's possible for a bullet to escape, sooner or later it will

You and other members may care about this range and want to keep it open. That's great. Personally, if possible I'd try to go maybe 20 feet or so in front of the firing line and make a row of railroad ties or something equivalent that would shorten the angle and stop overshooting the berm.

Until I saw the level of "marksmanship" by some of the range participants, I never would have believed it

If something like this bothers you, make it part of the club rules if it's not already. Then you have a legetimate reason for voicing your thoughts IMO.

HTH

ChickenHawk
December 26, 2006, 03:03 PM
Sigh,

This will be my last post in this thread because it's making me ill, although for some reason I am compelled to reply again. I'm dumbfounded and shocked at some of the replies.

Is it any wonder why outdoor ranges are becoming a thing of the past, and why liability insurance is so outrageous?

Don't get involved! As long as they aren't hurting you let them have their fun!

I wonder, if you saw someone keying cars at the grocery parking lot would you just let them have fun as long as they stay away from your car?

Live and let live. Don't be a petty tyrant.
Is that what we call people who see unsafe activity and take enough initiative to simply say something? No one is advocating taking any overt action such as telling them to leave or any such thing. Simply getting involved to the level of saying something in a friendly manner.

I also belong to an indoor range in Pflugerville. redneck2 got it right describing the walls and the ceiling! It's laughable. But the indoor range (1) will let anyone shoot there who pays the range fee; (2) has an RO watching shooters and to enforce rules at all times; (3) has walls and ceilings so any gun pointing down range can pretty well be considered "safe".

The outdoor range we have been discussing is (1) a private range for members only; (2) requires an orientation course; (3) has rules against this sort of thing which are discussed in orientation AND are visibly posted at each range; (4) requires new members to demonstrate proper gun handling and ability to shoot at the range as a part of orientation; (5) specifically says in the rules that members are requested and required to monitor each other to insure safe practices are being followed.

Frequently when I go to the range I am the only one there; especially if I go on a weekday. But if I saw the activity described in the original post I would gently and in a friendly manner (non-confrontationally) caution the father that he should ask his kids to slow down a bit and keep their shots safely aimed.

MisterPX asked: Did you see where his rounds were going? This is a great question! If you see shots impacting the lower half of the berm then let them have fun. But if you see shots impacting the upper part of the berm then you can be sure there is a problem and you should speak up.

I know most gun owners believe in self-reliance and individualism. I am completely in agreement with that and live my life that way. But, that does not mean that we have no responsibility to each other or that we should close our eyes to what goes on around us as long as we don't feel personally threatened by what we see.

But, maybe that's just me.

Best regards,
ChickenHawk

51Cards
December 26, 2006, 05:10 PM
My indoor range has more than enough idiot blemishes. It's been closed before, and I surely do NOT want it closed again.

An outdoor range has other problems. Like, it's visible.

We (us, here, with guns) take enough flak from everyone else as it is. Last thing I need is someone's slug sailing into someone else's family member or dog. We're supposed to be self-policing. Far as I can see, handling/carrying firearms is about as self-policing as you can get. Responsibility has to be demonstrated, not just exercised.

I've had total strangers tell me, "Watch your muzzle" while my pistols are still in the bag. At first, I thought that was annoying --- until I saw some of the other behavior. I've given friends unsolicited advice, and they've thanked me for being observant. The reverse is also true.

Where I live, it's tough enough keeping ranges open. In adjacent areas, it's gotten tough enough having carry "privileges." I don't want anyone to have any good reason to announce a shut-down, turn-in, license modification --- or an obituary.

And, yeah, I see something that seems wrong to me, I'm saying something, and that IS MYOB. Because it's still MY business, too.

I'm off this one, too. It's edging on toward "moderator time," and there are a lot of interesting posts here on THR.

It's been educational, folks.

mpmarty
December 26, 2006, 05:47 PM
Let the kid alone. I'm over 65 yrs old and shoot at bowling pins at various yardages from fifty to a hundred with my Arsenal AK74 from the hip and there is no greater joy than chasing a pin up a hill at those distances without aiming and emptying the 30 round mag in ten seconds or so. The same as finding yourself in an IPSC scenario where there are a couple of targets at less than three yards in a string of multiple targets, of course you double tap 'em just as fast as you can and accuracy be damned as long as you're on the paper.

CountGlockula
December 26, 2006, 06:15 PM
I was at the range the other day and there's always a sign behind the firing line saying "No loading here, load at Firing line table ONLY"... and guess where this dude was loading up his magazines?

People just don't understand.

SniperStraz
December 26, 2006, 06:17 PM
... it shouldnt matter to you. If you wanna do the kid a favor thats a different story. You could ask if he wants some tips on shooting more proficiently, but thats about all.

Lupinus
December 26, 2006, 06:19 PM
how do you know he wasn't vapable of hitting anything? Maybe he just wasn't concerning himself with it at that point in time? I like to spray a bit and hit what I aim at while doing *cough*pumpkin*cough*.

But then I am me, you are you, and he is...him.

So long as there were no safty issues and he kept control of the gun then there was no reason to say anything.

Now if dad didn't supply the kids with hearing protection, rudely refused when you offered your spare set, and gave the kid his first introduction to scope eye by being a total friggin moron, you should have said something. Why that example? Thats another bedtime story.

Headless
December 26, 2006, 06:24 PM
I have a hard time believing even a small, weak child could not keep 10 rounds of .22LR inside the berm area. I mean really, what recoil? IMO, Let them shoot, and keep your comments to yourself - unless you see them breaking safety rules.

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