+P or +P+: A question of Reliability?


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Mad Magyar
December 24, 2006, 07:54 AM
Premise: "+P or +P+ ammo is detrimental to autoloaders since it generates more slide velocity than the guns were designed to work with, and adversely affects feed reliability".
This train of thought is becoming more prevalent with the increased usage of this type of ammo. To be honest, I use +P in my revolvers, but not in autoloaders....What are your actual experiences? Is it really needed?:rolleyes:

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granatenumesser
December 24, 2006, 08:32 AM
Why not just buy a gun that was made to handle a caliber that will give you the performance you want from the +P, +P+. That way you dont need worry about it.

Lone_Gunman
December 24, 2006, 08:41 AM
I think the premise is wrong. Take 9mm autoloaders for example. Sig, Glock, Beretta, etc are all designed to function well with NATO spec ammo, which is higher pressure than SAAMI standards.

So, I would contend that most 9mm autos are actually designed to function with something closer to +P or +P+ than standard 9mm.

BsChoy
December 24, 2006, 10:09 AM
I use Ranger 127 +p+ in my G19 and no issues..of course just a couple hundred rounds a year all others are practice hardball. Wish I could use the 230 +p in my new springer 45...

MICHAEL T
December 24, 2006, 10:15 AM
My 9mm autos are only pistol I carry +P in. Why because its not a 45auto and really need help:neener:

Mad Magyar
December 24, 2006, 10:17 AM
I failed to mention that if you are fortunate to purchase n.i.b. with the owners manual, the fine print covering ammo will have the caveat whether it is okay. But, if you are like me, most of my handguns changed hands w/o the manual. I have a feeling some pistoleros get caught up with not only with high pressure loads, but the PD ammo with some bullet ogives not suited for their pistol.:uhoh:

Ares45
December 24, 2006, 12:27 PM
Never had any issues with +P ammo used in my autos.

I don't use +P+ because there is no SAAMI pressure specifications for it. It could be anything and varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.

longeyes
December 24, 2006, 12:45 PM
The only 9s I own are Glocks, and the Win 127g +P+ is my HD ammo of choice. No problems so far.

orionengnr
December 24, 2006, 01:42 PM
If your pistol has a 5" barrel, the standard presure ammo (9, 40, 45) is probably more than sufficient.

For CCW duties, many people prefer a smaller, shorter barreled handgun.

When you run a shorter barrel, you lose velocity in any of these calibers.

For example, my Kahr PM9 has a 3" barrel, and my Kahr P45 has a ~4" barrel.

How do you regain some of the velocity you lost to that short barrel?

Ding Ding Ding...yes, I use 230+p in my P45 and 127+p+ in my PM9 (in limited quantities, to avoid unnecessary premature wear.)

I practice with standard pressure stuff, plenty of it. I run enough hot stuff through it to be confident in it's function, recoil, POI.

MCgunner
December 24, 2006, 02:01 PM
I limit the use of, but carry +P in my Kel Tec P11 9mm. It's eaten 10K plus rounds, probably 400 maybe of that +P and it's still strong.

Why not just buy a gun that was made to handle a caliber that will give you the performance you want from the +P, +P+. That way you dont need worry about it.

Because they don't make a .45 or even a .40 that's quite as compact as the P11 in my pocket for every day carry. The new PF9 is even easier to carry. And, the Kahrs are quality pocket sized guns. Kahr does make a .40 that's near pocket sized, but it's not as light and compact as my P11, much less the new PF9. If you simply don't think a +P 9mm is enough, if you don't think there's any way it could stop a fight, well, carry your 1911, but I know better. And, I've always got the 9 with me. Day or night, at home or out, it's always there tucked away in a pocket or laying beside me at night. When I carry a big gun IWB, I often pull it off in the house. I never bother shedding the little P11, have to remind myself it's there.

gudel
December 24, 2006, 03:03 PM
Premise: "+P or +P+ ammo is detrimental to autoloaders since it generates more slide velocity than the guns were designed to work with, and adversely affects feed reliability".
This train of thought is becoming more prevalent with the increased usage of this type of ammo. To be honest, I use +P in my revolvers, but not in autoloaders....What are your actual experiences? Is it really needed?

Adversely affects feed reliability? Not in my HK, it can handle it. :)
Which gun are you talking about?

GRIZ22
December 24, 2006, 03:11 PM
I'm not a fan of +P or +P+ in semi autos. You only gain 100 fps or so in a 4-5" barrel and less in a shorter one. If you look at the ammo makers charts like Speer the amount of expansion and pentration are negligible. I do shoot +P in K frame or larger and +P+ in 357 revolvers.

ps You'll also get a lot more muzzle blast from +P and +P+ in short barrels.

RyanM
December 24, 2006, 03:17 PM
In my G23, if I load ammo all the way up to 180 gr at 1050 fps, I get occasional jams when firing one-handed, from the slide outrunning the magazine. Using weaker ammo, there's no problem. So I'd say yes, there can be a problem, though a stronger recoil spring would also probably help.

MrDig
December 24, 2006, 04:10 PM
I know that when I owned a 1991A1 with a full lenght guide rod and heavy return spring it wouldnt cycle well unless I put +p ammo in it.
God I miss that gun, Spooky Old Alice made me horsetrade it for a rifle cause she did't like "Army" Guns. Now she and I are divorced and I'm stuck with a poorly sporterized 03A3.:banghead:

gudel
December 24, 2006, 04:38 PM
I know that when I owned a 1991A1 with a full lenght guide rod and heavy return spring it wouldnt cycle well unless I put +p ammo in it

if your gun wouldn't cycle if you put regular 45acp ammo, then it's not special that it can do +p, instead, you have a big problem :D

MCgunner
December 24, 2006, 06:48 PM
if your gun wouldn't cycle if you put regular 45acp ammo, then it's not special that it can do +p, instead, you have a big problem

No problem at all, match the spring to the ammo. He said he had a heavy recoil spring in it. Just put a 14 or 16 lb spring back in it for wimpy ammo.

Dienekes
December 24, 2006, 06:57 PM
Have never used it in .45 ACP but Federal +P+ 115 gr JHP (LEO only) was a duty load for a while in my agency and percolated just fine in M19 Glocks. Even ran some through a WWII vintage Inglis BHP which was probably not wise but the gun didn't seem to mind at all. Have run some of the same stuff through my Mk III BHP without difficulty.

I am one of those who doesn't think +P or +P+ ammo justifies all the hoopla, at least in the 9mm semiauto. Where I do like it is in the .38 Spl 158 gr SWCHP in a S&W airweight.

Skywarp
December 24, 2006, 07:05 PM
Why not just buy a gun that was made to handle a caliber that will give you the performance you want from the +P, +P+.



Like 357 SIG.

grendelbane
December 24, 2006, 07:10 PM
MCgunner beat me to it. The recoil spring, and the main spring, have to be matched to the cartridge used. Even the firing pin stop has a very strong effect. My .45 has a small radius firing pin stop, a 16 pound recoil spring, and a 23 pound mainspring. It functions fine with my usual variety of loads, but if I substituted a 20 pound recoil spring for the 16 pound, I would expect malfunctions with standard loads, though I suspect that the 230 grain +p loads would still function just fine.

For powder puff loads, I would have to drop back down to 14 pound spring. Or, I could substitute another mainspring, and change the firing pin stop back to a stock one.

Lots of variables to ponder here, including different barrel and slide weights, absence or presence of compensators, and even burning rate of the powder. Makes for lots of fun!:D

orionengnr
December 24, 2006, 07:31 PM
Why not just buy a gun that was made to handle a caliber that will give you the performance you want from the +P, +P+.
Like 357 SIG.


Hmmm...
'Cause not everyone cares to carry a Service or Duty size pistol?

Can you show me a 6+1 as light/reliable/concealable as my Kahr PM-9?

Can you find quality SD ammo like Winchester Ranger SXT for under $20/box of 50?

Thought so...:rolleyes:

ClarkEMyers
December 24, 2006, 08:06 PM
I find my own lightly smithed 1911 works reliably with 9X23 so I don't sweat the +P issue.

I wouldn't hesitate to shoot +P from a reliable source with a reliable bullet in my backup CQB in .45 Auto - I'd be astounded to have any issues with feed reliability for thousands and thousands of shots but I don't hesitate to carry military ball or equivalent either.

I looked seriously at one of the big H&K's for use with .45 Super and decided I didn't like the pistol. No question a full size H&K will handle more +P than I can afford to buy.

For hunting with the 1911 I'll take a .45 Rowland and figure that's fine way shoot as much +P+ as I expect to ever shoot in my life.

Skywarp
December 24, 2006, 08:07 PM
I can get close. My 239 in a IWB is easily concealed under a T shirt, is heavier and larger but is a super reliable weapon. Hell it's a Sig.


Also you can get Ranger T's from a few places online including a great guy named Jerry Kirkpatrick for $18-20


Search most forums for that name. He's got a great rep and is a great guy to deal with

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