ISO the Kalashnikov 0f 1911s


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ta4
December 24, 2006, 10:29 PM
Is there such a thing? I don't collect firearms, I beat the heck out of them. They do not have to be tack-drivers, but they do have to carry well & be very good sd pieces. A 1911 can be in my future, but I want the equivalent of a Kalashnikov:very reliable, not too tight & acceptable sd accuracy. Ideas?

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Roadkill
December 24, 2006, 10:31 PM
Tokarev 33 or Type 54.

10-Ring
December 24, 2006, 10:44 PM
Maybe a Mak? :scrutiny:

C-grunt
December 24, 2006, 11:06 PM
Springfield Armory Milspec I think would fit the bill. Nothing fancy about it.

razorburn
December 24, 2006, 11:47 PM
I think he's saying he wants a highly reliable 1911, rather than another gun. A 1911 as reliable as an ak. Of which, I have no idea. A lot of the 1911's I've read about need tweaking out of the box to run 100%, and even after that, I'm not sure they'll run dirt/rain/snow like a kalashnikov.

doubleg
December 25, 2006, 12:08 AM
So you want a cheap reliable and poorly made 1911?:evil: jk Sounds like a springfield G I would fit the bill.

Hacker15E
December 25, 2006, 02:58 AM
Rock Island Armory or Springfield GI are both inexpensive and function well under austere conditions -- just like a good AK would. I have both and they are both as well built (and function as well as) my Colts. The RIA, especially, has functioned perfectly directly out of the box with zero tinkering whatsoever.

My Springer, however, probably wouldn't be as good as it is if it weren't for the efforts of 1911Tuner. I'm convinced, based on seeing him work, that nearly any 1911 for nearly any manufacturer can run flawlessly if it is within the correct tolerances.

daysleeprx
December 25, 2006, 05:23 AM
Norinco 1911 :)

Steelcore
December 25, 2006, 11:06 AM
You want a Les Baer.

joab
December 25, 2006, 11:14 AM
Definitely a Norinco

Utterly reliable and you wont ever cry about messing up the finish

Onmilo
December 25, 2006, 12:37 PM
A Colt 1911A1 or Series 70 with a non collet barrel bushing would fit the requirements nicely.
Used versions can be found for $700 or less if you are persistent.
Keep it simple and maintain it well.
I have worked on 1911A1 pistols while serving in the Military that had by anybodies guess well over 100,000 rounds fired and they were still going strong and being used when I left in 1983.

Coronach
December 25, 2006, 01:32 PM
Most of the 1911s that actually require tweaking are ones that differ significantly from the milspec 1911. Milspec 1911s tend to run like tops. It's only once one starts fiddling with the design that you start to get problems. So, get a milspec (either a Springfield or something else) would be my advice.

Mike

carterbeauford
December 25, 2006, 10:29 PM
Rock Island Armory, even if you do manage to break it or lose it in the mud, a replacement is $320.

I plan on torture testing mine in the future.

Searcher1911
December 26, 2006, 01:19 AM
The further from the basic design the more chance the 1911 will balk. I think what comes closest to what you are seeking is a basic, no-frills mil-spec 1911 and then stick with quality ball ammunition in good magazines (eg, Wilson's are great). I am a 1911 lover and my personal favorite is a Para Ordnance P-14 Limited. My next favorite is a Colt Government Model. Either pistol will shoot anything fed, including my crappy reloads with home cast lead bullets. A good 1911 is a joy to own.

Devonai
December 26, 2006, 02:18 AM
You absolutely, positively cannot go wrong with a Norinco 1911A1.

combatantr2
December 26, 2006, 05:22 AM
If ever you can find one there in the states i'd definitely get the NORINCO. Out of the box their damn reliable. Here in RP only a handful buy the RIA. RIA by the way never passed the Philippine National Police torture test. The drop test, the crack test, the thousand round test, etc.

Goodluck anyway on your decision.

1911 guy
December 26, 2006, 06:05 AM
Springfield G.I.
Rock Island Armory
High Standard

2TransAms
December 26, 2006, 08:45 AM
Series 70 Colt, or Norinco.

Hacker15E
December 26, 2006, 01:10 PM
RIA by the way never passed the Philippine National Police torture test. The drop test, the crack test, the thousand round test, etc.

Where is more information about this?

doubleg
December 26, 2006, 01:12 PM
DONT GET THE NORICO... Have some PRIDE. There is nothing worse than chinese rip off 1911.

1911 guy
December 26, 2006, 02:33 PM
Check out the reviews the Norks get. They're built well. Don't worry about supporting the ChiComs, none have been imported in a decade or more. All your cash used for purchase stays with the person/dealer you buy from. Your trip to a department store will do more to support a forign economy than buying a used pistol.

daysleeprx
December 26, 2006, 02:38 PM
DONT GET THE NORICO... Have some PRIDE. There is nothing worse than chinese rip off 1911.

Spoken by someone who obviously has never owned one. :rolleyes:

carterbeauford
December 26, 2006, 02:38 PM
Have some PRIDE

This is 2006, we live in a global economy.

schmeky
December 26, 2006, 02:51 PM
Agree on the Norinco's. I've had 2, could still kick myself for getting rid of them.

True military spec pistols but made out of excellent steel with high strength steel internal parts.

Shoot it get good with it, then fit a Bar-Sto barrel and bushing to get some really tight groups and still be reliable.

nathan
December 26, 2006, 02:56 PM
i may get a nork if they are still blow 350.

doubleg
December 26, 2006, 03:29 PM
:rolleyes: Come on people.. A chinese 1911?:uhoh: That goes against everything the 1911 represents.

joab
December 26, 2006, 07:23 PM
What exactly is it that a 1911 represents that would be tarnished by an exact copy of the original being made in a foreign country?

Dependability and accuracy certainly are not among those things.

Perhaps America's arrogant and a unrealistic belief of long past quality of workmanship being inextricably linked to the made in America sign would be hurt a little but that's about it

Of all your quips about owning a Norinco I have not heard any first hand evaluations of the gun coming from you, why is that?

Soap
December 26, 2006, 07:31 PM
DONT GET THE NORICO... Have some PRIDE. There is nothing worse than chinese rip off 1911.

Quoted as typed on a computer with Chinese components.

Cue the Lee Greenwood! :evil:

doubleg
December 26, 2006, 11:07 PM
I have nothing against owning products and firearms made in other countrys. They have good quality and craftsmanship (most of the time). But buying a 1911 made in china takes a quality american firearm and turns it into a cheapo mass production chinese firearm made by communtist slaves from low quality steel and covered in a poor finish .

doubleg
December 26, 2006, 11:12 PM
Wait a minute maybe it is the kalashnikov of 1911's! :what: :D

schmeky
December 26, 2006, 11:30 PM
doubleg,

You are seriously misinformed, misguided, and obviously base your opinion on a lack of owning a norinco.

We live in global society. China has embraced capitalism, quite successfully I might add. To NOT support the norinco is to tell the Chinese they are not on the road to capitalism.

Grow up :)

doubleg
December 27, 2006, 12:03 AM
Just because i talk smack on norico's does not mean I have never owned them or had experience with them.;) And last time I checked China was still governed by sociolists.

daysleeprx
December 27, 2006, 12:40 AM
But buying a 1911 made in china takes a quality american firearm and turns it into a cheapo mass production chinese firearm made by communtist slaves from low quality steel and covered in a poor finish .

I'm sorry, but this statement pretty much proves that you really don't know the truth about Norincos. Read the second post on this thread about the quality of Norinco steel:

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=15245

LeonCarr
December 27, 2006, 01:05 AM
Any loose tolerance GI type (Remington Rand, Ithaca, etc)

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

abarth
December 27, 2006, 07:50 AM
Norinco not only use better material on the 1911 than most US manufacturers, but today China are more capitalistic than we are. In China, if you are lazy and don't work, you starve to death. If you are sick and have no money, don't even think about going to the hospital, they won't admit you. They have no government handout, no social security, the harder you work the more money you earn. The Chinese government was never really true communtist anyway, it is more like a dictatorship, but I won't go into it here that belongs to another forum.

combatantr2
December 27, 2006, 07:53 AM
Gun for gun and not based on country manufacturer NORCs are top performers and their worth every buck. However, we do have some consumers in the 1911 market who equate the NORC to China being a communist country, slave laborers, etc.

I just bought a CANON digital camera which I thought is a Japanese brand only to find under its made in China :confused:

Guncrazy45
December 27, 2006, 09:36 AM
"Selling low-tech weapons to our enemy to fund the purchase of high-tech weapons from our enemy, the better to kill our enemy in the future."

At least that's what it was when their small arms were being imported here. That's just too much of an unpleasant irony for me. Still, I recognize that the guns are good (guilty of having purchased two Norinco SKS's years ago), and no further damage can be done by trading in what's already here.

Oh, and don't make the mistake of calling China's economy "capitalist." Sure, there's a lot of activity that looks like capitalism over there, but you can't have capitalism without ownership. Every large domestic industry, and every foreign business, is partially owned by the People's Liberation Army, through one of its subsidiaries. And the government frequently takes full ownership of companies and individual assets, just to remind people that they're still in control.

jrfoxx
December 27, 2006, 09:47 AM
I'll throw in my vote for Firestorm, sinc no one's said it and I LOVE mine.Never had a single problem with it in 4 years and I don't know how many rounds, but its A LOT.

nero45acp
December 27, 2006, 09:56 AM
Argentina Sistema



nero

schmeky
December 27, 2006, 10:56 PM
This thread made me realize how much I miss the 2 Norincos I used to own.

So I just bought one on GunBroker.

abarth
December 28, 2006, 02:36 AM
Oh, and don't make the mistake of calling China's economy "capitalist." Sure, there's a lot of activity that looks like capitalism over there, but you can't have capitalism without ownership. Every large domestic industry, and every foreign business, is partially owned by the People's Liberation Army, through one of its subsidiaries. And the government frequently takes full ownership of companies and individual assets, just to remind people that they're still in control.
Guncrazy what do you mean by no ownership in China, where are you getting your info from, mind pointing that out. I own a company that own and operate a cabinet factory in China. The factory is 100% own by my company in the U.S. not joint venture with anyone in China, and most of my suppliers in China are privately own and operate too.

How about a brand new Taurus PT-1911 for about $100 more than a used Nork. You get a ambi safety, combat hammer, adjustable speed trigger, forged frame and slide, and a life time warranty.

Guncrazy45
December 28, 2006, 05:39 AM
Abarth--The situation I described with JV companies is the way things were explained to me in '96. I actually lived there from '96 to '98. Admittedly, my info regarding the way business is conducted in China may be out of date, and if so, mea culpa. It certainly wouldn't surprise me, considering how fast things continue to change over there.

However, although I don't have time to debate it (packing for vacation right now), I will stand by my assertion that the People's Liberation Army considers the US to be a likely adversary, and is doing its damndest to be a serious contender when the interests of our nations eventually collide. Part of this preparation is the entry into business ventures which not only create revenue (which is used to buy arms and fund R&D of better weapons), but will also give China access to advanced electronics and computer technology, parts and manufacturing capacity.

Yes, it's damn near impossible to live these days without needing to use something made in China. (Hell, my wife was made in China ;) ). And it's likely that at least a tiny fraction of the money you spend on those products goes to support Chinese defense industries. There's really not much any of us can do about it now, and I don't worry about it. But, and this is just my personal preference, I don't want to purchase new-import Chinese weapons, as in my mind, this directly supports the PLA, as Norinco is a PLA-owned industry.

Z_Infidel
December 28, 2006, 12:23 PM
Realize that some of it will just boil down to luck as well. You can improve your odds by taking some of the advice in this thread, but that doesn't come with a guarantee. I owned a Springfield Mil-Spec and had no trouble with it. I now own a S&W 1911 and have also put thousands of rounds through it with no failures whatsoever, even when running it dirty. Luck? Maybe... but I rather think S&W is another company to look at for a reliable 1911, although not exactly inexpensive. But reasonable I think.

otomik
December 28, 2006, 02:45 PM
I don't want to purchase new-import Chinese weapons, as in my mind, this directly supports the PLA, as Norinco is a PLA-owned industry.Norinco is funny that way, many of the executives are PLA officers. There are many other businesses that are PLA owned and operated.

The manufacturing techniques used for 1911s are outdated so a competitively priced pistol can only be made in third world economic conditions or by updating the manfacturing techniques up to and including changing the design (MIM parts, non-standard parts, etc). i think the real choice is norinco or sistema.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_People's_Liberation_Army
During the 1980s and 1990s, the PLA became extensively involved in creating a business empire including companies in areas not normally associated with the military (i.e., travel and real estate). Much of the motivation for this was to supplement the PLA's normal budget, whose growth was restricted. Chairman Mao's belief that people and groups should be self-sufficient also played a role in the PLA's varied business interests. In the early 1990s, the leadership of the Communist Party and the high command of the PLA became alarmed that these business transactions were in conflict with the PLA's military mission. The business interests of the PLA were eroding military discipline, and there were reports of corruption resulting from the PLA businesses. As a result, the PLA was ordered to spin off its companies. Typically, the actual management of the companies did not change, but the officers involved were retired from active duty within the PLA and the companies were given private boards of retired PLA officers. Military units were compensated for the loss of profitable businesses with increased state funding.

daysleeprx
December 28, 2006, 03:09 PM
This thread made me realize how much I miss the 2 Norincos I used to own.

So I just bought one on GunBroker.

Right on! :D

Zen21Tao
December 28, 2006, 03:10 PM
Let me cast another vote for a Norinco 1911-A1. I picked one up for around $400 a few years back and it has been increadible. It is solid forged steel so it is very durable and as for accuracy, its stock barrel shoots just as well as my Kimbers and Springfield "loaded." I have also seen many Norinco owners claim accuracy from their stock Norinco barrel is on par with $2500+ custom built 1911s they own(ed)/have fired. From what I have seen from my own Norinco, I definitely believe them.


But buying a 1911 made in china takes a quality american firearm and turns it into a cheapo mass production chinese firearm made by communtist slaves from low quality steel and covered in a poor finish .

Let me say that I think others are dead on, that you know absolutley nothing about the REAL quality of a Norinco 1911. You are entitled to dislike them because they are foreign made and you feel that is an insult to what a 1911 means to you, but to blindly claim they are are of inferior quality for such reason truley shows your ignorance. Just take a look at Wilson Combat's FAQ page. The Norinco is one only six non-Wilson 1911 platforms that Wilson will do custom work on. But I guess you know more that Wilsons own master gunsmiths.

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/faq_handgun.htm

What pistols do you work on?

We will work on Springfield Armory, Colt, Norinco, Wilson Combat, Kimber, Strayer Tripp, and Strayer Voight pistols.

We will not work on firearms that have been modified by anyone other than Wilson CombatŪ Custom Shop.

schmeky
December 28, 2006, 05:18 PM
Daysleeprx,

Found an excellent condition norc with an aftermarket adjustable aluminum trigger and cocobolo grip panels for $325.00.

The original parts will also be included. Yoa-zaa!!

daysleeprx
December 29, 2006, 04:03 AM
Awesome deal schmeky. :) I will be expecting pics and a range report when it reaches you. ;)

Dr.Rob
December 29, 2006, 04:43 AM
The real deal is obviously a WW2 vintage Colt, Remington Rand or Ithica... realistically however a Norinco, Argentine Systema or a new Spingfield 'mil spec' model is your best bet.

I've heard nothing but praise about the Norincos, and after shooting one side by side with a Colt, well the pistol wasn't lacking in accuracy or reliability, it was definitely less finicky about magazines.

combatantr2
December 29, 2006, 09:04 AM
Most negative comments you'll hear about NORC 1911s:

Finish is crap - true
Machining is rough - very true (both internals and externals)
Crappy trigger - true -
Grip screw bushings - are one of a kind :mad: - true
Some are loose and some are tight - true - (I own three)

Positive comments:

Steel used and the hardening process - probably the best steel ever in the 1911s
Utterly reliable out of the box - very true - some may require cleaning prior to 1st shot to remove grease and gum and all that and some are clean as water.

schmeky
December 29, 2006, 10:08 AM
daysleeprx,

You betcha'. I have several pistols I have aquired in the last few months and plan to do some indoor range shooting and the norinco will be in the mix.

Pictures? You bet.

ta4
December 31, 2006, 04:41 PM
There are 2 gun shows coming up in IN, will be looking for that Norinco!

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