Smoke Grenade question

[loki.fish]

I was at a gun show a couple weeks ago and saw what looked to be a mil surp smoke grenade. This is the only one I've ever seen anywhere. I almost bought it just because, but I couldn't get myself to pay $75 for something I have little information on. I'm assuming there are no legalities for them considering it's pretty much a smoke bomb that has a bigger effective area. A quick google search came up with a bunch of European sites that sell them, but I'd rather not try to buy something from another country. So here's the questions.

Are there any federal laws concerning ownership and use of smoke grenades?

Does anybody know of a place in the U.S. that sells them?

Would $75 been normal for one that looked like it came straight from the military?



And, in case you're wondering why on Earth I'd want smoke grenades. I play alot of paintball, and thought using smoke grenades on the field would make for some interesting experiences.

[Mandirigma]

Heh, old paintball trick I used to use. take a few smoke bombs from around New Years or the 4th of July, twist about three of them together and secure it with a little tape.

Then I used a torch lighter (a bit easier to get them lit than with a Zippo or Bic) to get em started.

[Devonai]

If fireworks are legal in your state, $75 is an outrageous price. If they are illegal, then it's a $75 paperweight that you can never transport without risk of confiscation and prosecution.

I would call the state police and ask about smoke grenades. They are less dangerous than many fireworks available to civilians but they're still a fire hazard. DO NOT deploy them on dry grass or leaves or if the local fire department has red showing on it's Smokey the Bear sign.

BTW, 10/$75 sounds more reasonable.

[loki.fish]

The only fireworks illegal here are M80s and stuff that flies in the air. Roman candles, bottle rockets, etc.

[PAC 762]

There used to be a guy who set up at philly gun shows and sold expired marine smoke signals for $5/each. They are pull pin and put out as much or more smoke than a US smoke grenade. That might be the cheaper option if you want smokes and can find them.

[Bazooka Joe71]

the only fireworks illegal here are M80s and stuff that flies in the air. Roman candles, bottle rockets, etc.

Seriously??? If that is the case, then I have broke the law about 20,000 times in my life(via bottle rockets).:what:

Why do they sell them 5 min from my house(in all directions)?

[ready4shtf]

It was prob a M18 smoke. I bought a few at a gun show a few years back for $20 each. Thats what they use when you hear "Pop yellow smoke" and such. There are MUCH cheaper alternatitives. You can get "sportsman smoke grenades" for a few bucks. They are pull pin activated and almost as smokey.

[hso]

$75 is awfully expensive for what I see at local gun shows for $20.

[loki.fish]

Seriously??? If that is the case, then I have broke the law about 20,000 times in my life(via bottle rockets).

Why do they sell them 5 min from my house(in all directions)?


It's not an enforced law. I happened upon it looking up the gun laws of the state. Just another one of those ignorant laws that nobody seems to follow.

[rustymaggot]

i saw a dude that had a purple smoke grenade once. as far as i know hes never set it off. if its legal to own them then id love to get a few purple ones. seems like a awesome outdoor party toy.

[loki.fish]

Found some colored ones, but I still think the price is a bit high. 2 for $90.

http://www.keepshooting.com/militarysurplus/flares/smoke_flares_surplus.htm

[tank mechanic]

Definitely make sure it is not a red one if you end up getting it. It is a distress signal and you can get in trouble of if you get caught setting it off

[swampgator]

Would $75 been normal for one that looked like it came straight from the military?

Makes me wish I'd kept a few M-18s instead 'popping smoke.'

[Spookhouse]

Are you talkin about a smoke bomb like firecracker? Or a Smoke grenade type thing like swat teams use? Because alot of these guys sound like they think you mean firecrackers.

[Wes Janson]

Please be careful about using smoke grenades while playing paintball.

A year and a half ago I was volunteering as a referee for a local paintball field, and watched someone start a small fire on a wooded field, in the middle of a battle. They're really easy to accidentally set things on fire with, and if you're using it for paintball you're probably already in the woods, where just about everything can be flammable if it gets dry enough. We were lucky, and were able to put it out pretty quickly before it could spread more than a few feet, but when the ground is covered in dry leaves, and the region's in the middle of a drought, smoke grenades are a really really bad idea.

[hso]

Wes Janson has an excellent point. These things aren't toys and generate a lot of heat as well as smoke. Military smoke munitions have a variety of forumlations, some of which are hazardous, so don't use them around any combustible materials or where anyone can become exposed to the smoke.

I personally know of 2 brush fires started by military "smoke grenades" that had to have the fire department summoned to control.

[LAR-15]

What colors should one avoid when getting 'smoke' grenades?

[Neo-Luddite]

Please be careful--real issue HC grenades do explode on occasion.
There have been deaths in training exercises. No, they won't explode like a frag but I would REALLY chuck the thing and get out of the line of sight behind some cover. There are many better commercial alternatives used for theatrical stuff, paintball, etc.

It's probably not illegal in most places but it might be illegal to deploy.
I'd pass on it.

And if you want a cool paperweight, 75 bucks is too much. Get a DX'd one off e-bay.

[MatthewVanitas]

@ hso: aren't the HC grenades toxic (or at least "oxygen displacing")? I seem to recall that they made a big deal about not using them inside buildings during MOUT training, since it could cause you some damage if used in an enclosed airspace.

Too bad that CS grenades aren't sold on the regular market, that'd be way more fun for paintball. Remember, CS combines with oxygen, so technically you're breathing just fine, aside from the dry heaves and burning sensation all over.

-MV

[hso]

Some smoke munitions have a toxic component in the smoke they produce. I don't have the formulation for the hand thrown "smoke grenade" so I can't be definitive in any warning, but I have prefessional experience with the hazards assessment of the larger munitions which do have a toxic component in the smoke. No real hazard when used in the open, but certainly hazardous when used in areas where the smoke can get trapped.

[Sniper X]

I had the same basic question but found some real big nice ones at a fireworks stand outside town. I did have a whole case of mil spec yellows but sold them to a freind who was moving to Alabama. I see the cases for sale from time to time and am going to buy the next few I see for a good price if I can get it. The big ones I bought from the fireworks stand are great and put out a lot of smoke, and are cheap, but you have to light them. Try cheaper than dirt or google military surplus outfits.

[Sniper X]

I found an outift with some left. They are activated by a pull pin, smoke for about 5 minutes, and can be used in a dry feild, or work in water. Cost is about $150.00 per dozen. Let me knwo if you are interested...oh, they are LEGAL but check local laws!

bright orange smoke...

[Zoogster]

Some smoke munitions have a toxic component in the smoke they produce. I don't have the formulation for the hand thrown "smoke grenade" so I can't be definitive in any warning, but I have prefessional experience with the hazards assessment of the larger munitions which do have a toxic component in the smoke. No real hazard when used in the open, but certainly hazardous when used in areas where the smoke can get trapped.
Some of them use white phosphorus to help produce a lot more smoke. White phosphorous is toxic and can cause problems and disabilities if inhaled. The old smoke screen ones that totaly obliterated view often used white phosphorous in the mixture. It causes tooth and bone problems among other things just by being around it. In fact some of the early matches were outlawed because of all the the health problems white phosphorous fumes can create.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phossy_jaw
It also causes serious liver damage.

White phosphorous even items where it is just part of the mix is also very dangerous. In fact white phosphorous clouds that burn down to the bone where used in Fallujah as a weapon.They called it "shake and bake" and describe it as "psycological" to be PC. It can essentialy be used like Napalm only different because it is a powder that ignites and burns intensely and penetrates into the skin instead of sticking to it. Combined with its highy ability to penetrate lipids it burns at 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm
scroll to the incendiary part.
It is so deadly and effective and terrifying as a weapon that much of the world considers us to have used chemical weapons. As it created clouds of death throughout the city that killed and maimed any that came into contact with them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_4440000/newsid_4441700/4441798.stm
That is one of the more light versions of the story. Of course in the US we don't mention such things. But I even wonder of the toxic effect on the troops fighting nearby.


So be careful with military smoke munitions, some contain small amounts, some large amounts, of that toxic stuff, some don't.

[Lucky]

You can buy expired marine smoke grenades for $15 or so up here. The orange ones. They still function, but marine rules say they have to be replaced periodically so there's lots of second-hand ones for sale.

They smell unpleasant, but make smoke for several minutes.

Or you can make your own with salt-peter & sugar in a frying pan.

[Zoogster]

Also keep in mind many people carry colored smoke to rely on for a distress signal when thier life is on the line. If you are out setting them off not only could you get in trouble, but your crying wolf and making people less responsive for those that might actualy want that high flying plane to call in for them one day.

Shooting flares from a flare gun into the sky because they look cool would not be much different.

[Al Thompson]

HC is very dangerous. Back in the mid 80's (IIRC) one of the safety bulletins mentioned that it uses an acid or creates an acid when mixed with water. Do not breathe it...

:what:

[Zero_DgZ]

On the saltpeter-and-sugar in the frying pan experiment, don't try it with a nonstick pan! The nonstick coating (teflon, silverstone, doesn't seem to matter) catalyzes the potassium nitrate and makes the whole mixture go up before it even gets to its melting point.

Go ahead, ask me how I know.

Also, the melted mass is a sticky, hygroscopic mess that has to be kept sealed and frankly isn't all that great of a smoke mixture given the risk of toasting your kitchenware. And the burnt residue is tenacious.

A better plan is to go with a mixture of KNO3, sugar, and granulated parafin. Don't even bother melting it, just mix it real good and pack it into a fireproof container with a couple of holes in it to let the smoke out. When the hot exhaust gasses jet out of the container they expand and cool, condensing the parafin into super-fine mist that forms really effective smoke in a hurry. It's not very noxious, but could be considered about as good for you as inhaling any other particulate en masse... And smells like freshly blown out birthday candles.

[carebear]

HC is very dangerous. Back in the mid 80's (IIRC) one of the safety bulletins mentioned that it uses an acid or creates an acid when mixed with water. Do not breathe it...

The instructors at the recon short course would pop HC and/or CS in our bivouac sites to "simulate a chemical attack" (but really just to screw with us). As we scampered off they'd be standing in the cloud yelling "come back <cough, cough> it's just white smoke!!"

I have no sympathy. :evil:

[hso]

The folks that use it in the military are unlikely to have a full understanding of the hazards these materials represent. They're far more interested in understanding the applications and in finding new, and interesting, applications.

[Jeff White]

hso,
Before I retired there were several safety bulletins issued about using HC smoke, especially in an enclosed area. IIRC, around 1985 there was a fatality at the 25th Division Air Assault School in Hawaii. It involved the use of an HC smoke grenade in a tunnel. I believe the tunnel was part of their obstacle course.

Prior to that the only thing the Army worried about with smoke grenades was starting fires. The soldiers finding creative ways to use their pyro is one of the reasons why NCOs exist.

Jeff

[carebear]

To find even MORE creative ways? ;)

[Jeff White]

MORE creative ways....maybe before they grow up and mature in the job. ;)

I could tell some stories, but won't....

Jeff

[hso]

The company I work for gets involved in all sorts of things. Some of them are looking at some of the "more creative" ways things get used to see if there are overlooked applications. People with time on their hands and munitions get to be very creative.:evil:

[Jeff White]

hso,
Could I be a consultant? I saw all kinds of creative uses for munitions during my almost 29 years in the Army. Sounds like a fun job ;)

Jeff

[hso]

Ok, before I cause Jeff to make a career change :evil: I think all the juice has been wrung out of this one and we'll shut it down.