COPs kills


PDA






bogie
December 27, 2006, 11:53 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16362182/

Seems that a lot of cops are so worried about getting shot at while in their vehicles that they're leaving their seatbelts off...

And of course, that's not all that statistically likely to happen. For what it's worth, "dying on the job-wise," farming is more dangerous than police work.

Over the past 30 years, the number of officers killed in automobile crashes has jumped by 40 percent while the number shot to death during that period has declined by about the same amount.

The guys on the street are believing the overblown, overhyped, overbreathlesslyscreamed PR... that they're in constant danger. And they're putting themselves at risk.

If you enjoyed reading about "COPs kills" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Pilgrim
December 27, 2006, 12:11 PM
My former department's last fatality was a young deputy who crashed his patrol car into the side of a canal bank. He wasn't wearing his seatbelt. I don't think he had but a year on the job.

Pilgrim

mkh100
December 27, 2006, 12:16 PM
Used to see it ALL THE TIME !!!

another common excuse was the need to exit the car to run down bad guys. Seems the extra secand spent unbuckling would provide too much escape time to the runners. This was actually the most common reason for not wearing the seat belt ....never heard anyone say they were worried about getting shot.

Eleven Mike
December 27, 2006, 12:31 PM
Folks, it's obvious. Drinking coffee and eating donuts while driving is dangerous. Especially when the Boston Creme comes out of the other end and falls on your duty trousers. I hate that!


I am not, nor have ever been, law enforcement.

bogie
December 27, 2006, 12:35 PM
Too damn much hype. Too damn much testosterone (from both sexes...). And not enough common sense safety. There's such as "us vs. the bad guys" mentality as of late that even more credence is given to "ohmigawd, you might get shot while you're sitting in your car!"

Of course, y'all know what this'll mean.

Tactical seat belts. $1,000 black strap dealies, designed to be freed one-handed in a flash...

Our tax dollars at work.

That, and it's amazing that a lot of departments still haven't figured out that RCA is a LOT faster than a speeding bullet... They don't need to chase cars - they need license numbers and watchful eyes...

Eleven Mike
December 27, 2006, 12:44 PM
Tactical seat belts. $1,000 black strap dealies, designed to be freed one-handed in a flash...Well, if your push-button seat belt release isn't fast enough...

Travis McGee
December 27, 2006, 12:51 PM
ElevenMike, I was about to highlight that exact quote! WE'll probably see a few versions of the new "tactical seatbelts" at the SHOT Show in the LE room. They will probably have a powder charge to fire them off, like an airbag.

bogie
December 27, 2006, 12:56 PM
Hey, in the armed services, you're FAR more likely to be sidelined by a repetitive stress injury than by a combat wound. But hey, arthritis and bone spurs don't make the news...

BE CAREFUL OUT THERE.

buzz_knox
December 27, 2006, 01:26 PM
We had a police captain who was begging to die this way. Except, it wasn't from not wearing his seatbelt. It was from getting into the fast lane, putting his cruiser on cruise control, and taking a quick nap. I don't know how many times he did this, but he nailed other cars twice.

Spreadfire Arms
December 27, 2006, 02:01 PM
all they have to do is train the young recruit officers to take the damn seat belt off prior to arriving at a scene. they are taught to "slow roll" with them off which is fine, but in normal driving it is rather easy to develop muscle memory and take the damn thing off. it doesn't require any $1000 tactical seat belt removal flashbang-no knock-tacticool-black kevlar-ballistic-SAPI Level IV rated-SWAT-MOLLE gadget.

thegriz
December 27, 2006, 04:35 PM
Anybody who doesn't wear a seatbelt, but issues citations for not wearing seat belts deserves a swift kick in the balls.

Same for any other criminal activity.

That's my 2 cents.

jerkface11
December 27, 2006, 04:57 PM
Why not they speed and run red lights too. I've seen cops turn on their blue lights just to get thru a red light then continue driving 30mph once they were thru the intersection. Not like anyone's going to ticket them.

Zoogster
December 27, 2006, 05:03 PM
Modern media hype. It is why guns are seen as so evil as well. Stories of extremes, death and destruction, extreme emotion, those are what sell commercial time for the news channels. The boring realistic everyday events won't have people "tune in at 11". Fortify the handful of extremes on the news with even bigger extremes in entertainment and your left with a lot of people overly conscious of the extremes and less prepared for the things more likely to occur.

Bigreno
December 27, 2006, 08:09 PM
General gun discussion...13 posts....the word gun is mentioned 1 time.

Zoogster wins the cupie doll.

Roccobro
December 27, 2006, 09:13 PM
Wow. By some of the posts, I can't tell if the posters care about cops safety or just want to bag on 'em for any reason. :rolleyes:

Did the statistics on those "increase in auto fatalities" numbers actually cite how many deaths caused solely by a drunk driver and a seatbelt had no bearing (or how about exploding Ford C.V. gas tanks) ? Or how about "rate of police death still lower than employment growth rate", or using per capita type comparison? nah... And it couldn't be that more officers are surviving those harrowing shootouts they don't wear their seatbelt for because of their new generation vests or improved training that has come about in the last decade?
Two CA officers are alive in Long Beach after being ambushed -IN THEIR CAR..
http://cbs2.com/local/local_story_360163508.html

Sadly, the officer in Oceanside died.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20061220-1935-bn20shot.html

And this just is in the last 7 days :barf: :barf:



And if it was the crook that robbed/raped/tortured/killed your daughter/sister/mother/brother/father and got away from the cop being "one second" behind because of a seat belt it would make you sleep better at night? Do you think they risk their lives by not wearing seatbelts because they want to die? Hmm....we may never know. :scrutiny:

I can't wait until the govt gives back all our rights so we won't need police to worry about taking care of us. Then we all can ride motorcycles without helmets, and drive cars without seatbelt at any speed limit. Or even smoke and drink! Maybe even commit a faster suicide if wanted.

Remember, more kids die in from drownings in buckets and pools every year than are killed by guns. Let's get things in perspective. (used the word gun twice now, so there! :neener: )

Justin- I always wear my vest but not always my seatbelt- Roccobro

razorburn
December 27, 2006, 09:18 PM
What are you talking about? You don't seem to understand how a seatbelt works very well. A seatbelt has bearing on any accident. It just restrains the person in the event of the accident. It doesn't matter what caused the accident. What difference would that make if it was caused by a drunk driver or what? A lot more officers die from car accidents than from shootouts. It's not a very dangerous job where they're getting into ambushes and shootouts every week. You pulling up 2 anecdotes means nothing. A lot of officer lives could be saved if they wore their seatbelts.

Cosmoline
December 27, 2006, 09:18 PM
Why not rig a quick release belt system that allows it to be popped off from the chest with one button instead of digging around the crud on the duty belt to get at the thing.

Combat-wombat
December 27, 2006, 09:38 PM
I can't wait until the govt gives back all our rights so we won't need police to worry about taking care of us. Then we all can ride motorcycles without helmets, and drive cars without seatbelt at any speed limit. Or even smoke and drink! Maybe even commit a faster suicide if wanted.
Are you being sarcastic? That sounds like a step in the right direction to me.

Eleven Mike
December 28, 2006, 12:37 AM
Wow. By some of the posts, I can't tell if the posters care about cops safety or just want to bag on 'em for any reason. I'm sorry, are we all supposed to use the :concerned: smiley? If we crack a few jokes, do you take that to mean we want cops to die painfully in fiery auto crashes? Last I knew, internet forums were still venues for joking, grumbling, or even criticizing police officers.

MICHAEL T
December 28, 2006, 01:00 AM
Ouote "I can't wait until the govt gives back all our rights so we won't need police to worry about taking care of us. Then we all can ride motorcycles without helmets, and drive cars without seatbelt at any speed limit. Or even smoke and drink! Maybe even commit a faster suicide if wanted."

I ride my bike with out a helment, don't use a seat belt ,and drive as fast as I FEEL LIKE. I don't see where its the Gov job to tell me I can't do these things or smoke or drink if I want. If I want to commit suicide thats also up to me not the gov.
If a cop doesn't wear a seat belt thats up to him But don't be giving out tickets to others . Helments seatbelts and speeding all money makers for the Gov. Those that enforce the laws should obey them or not enforce them. Time police loose this "OK for me but not for you ". Same with CCW we have the right. So live with it and those that treat people like criminals because they carry should sit behind a desk answering phone or sweeping floors..:cuss:

garanddaddy
December 28, 2006, 01:03 AM
To bad you guys don't even know what you are talking about. You probably
coudn't get hired anyway. Next you will be compaining that the cops don't say PLEASE when telling you to stop or put your hands up. Now I know i am in the wrong forum

loxety
December 28, 2006, 01:06 AM
http://cbs2.com/local/local_story_360163508.html is yet another reason to secure our boarders! Not even talking about how gun control worked so well in this situation. :scrutiny:

"The suspect in Friday's shooting -- once-deported felon Oscar Gabriel Gallegos, who had been living in the Long Beach area -- is wanted on suspicion of attempted murder in the shooting of officers Roy Wade, 39, and Abe Yap, 37."

wildburp
December 28, 2006, 01:07 AM
The other excuse is that it takes too much time when you are jumping in and in a hurry. Always buckle up - wisdom from the middle sixties.

wb

Roccobro
December 28, 2006, 02:07 AM
You pulling up 2 anecdotes means nothing. A lot of officer lives could be saved if they wore their seatbelts.

*sigh* Anecdotes, and not perfect examples? Until you walk in their shoes and see what and why they do what they do (for your safety), how can you judge? I can see where it is hypocritical and you prove the point. But first, your not in the hotzones some of these guys are working in, and you probably will never know what it is like to be there-in that metal deathtraps- in those anecdote type situations, will you? Maybe this one should be brought up in the tactics forum under a poll or something to see what some have to say about *possibly* being in that situation even once in a lifetime.

Second, a seatbelt will NOT save you in an "auto involved" death where you are slammed from behind at 70mph while your sitting still on the side of the road writing a ticket. Seatbelt or not, your done. And if the gas tank explodes from the impact, then will that one second of time (unconcious or not) really make a difference? I'd cite those all too frequent FACTUAL INCIDENTS too but they might be billed "anecdotes" again so I won't bother. Now if these double standard cops were dying off duty from violating the law, then it might be another matter (needing more legislation?) <---- sarcasm :uhoh: The last three officers to die from our Sheriff's Department were motorcycle cops hit by non drunk drivers. Where were their seatbelts???

Of course I did use some sarcasm and humor in my previous post. I do understand some reading this stuff will never "like" cops, and some will even cheer when they die (I deals with these types every day). That is fine, as tickets and cops are necessary evils for the public safety and I sleep well every night. Internet forums can also be used to help shed some light on the other side of the argument too you know, so carry on. ;)

Michael T- I agree with everything except the writing of tickets. Your govt (cops employer) is the one having this happen. No matter the ethical reason, it is a necessary evil in the govt's attempt to protect people from themselves. I believe everyone has the right to endanger themselves, but not anybody else and that is where tickets come in. I always say, you cannot protect stupid people from themselves. But the govt doesn't agree even if Darwin says it's true! :D

More people are killed with cars than any other instrument in the US. But the gun grabbers don't care about this little nugget when it comes time to "save the people from themselves." Until I get to sign up to be in the Army reserves and get deployed, I'll put my life on the line for others rights for something more than just money. And I will do it in the most effective way possible.

Judge away as is your right, but showing ones ignorance is never pretty. :o

Justin

arthurcw
December 28, 2006, 03:32 AM
it doesn't require any $1000 tactical seat belt removal flashbang-no knock-tacticool-black kevlar-ballistic-SAPI Level IV rated-SWAT-MOLLE gadget.


Best quote ever!

Feanaro
December 28, 2006, 04:15 AM
Second, a seatbelt will NOT save you in an "auto involved" death where you are slammed from behind at 70mph while your sitting still on the side of the road writing a ticket. Seatbelt or not, your done. And if the gas tank explodes from the impact, then will that one second of time (unconcious or not) really make a difference?

Situations that wouldn't be made WORSE by seatbelts.

There are times when wearing a seatbelt has killed people. I'm sure more than a few people have managed to kill themselves with orange peels and vitamin C tablets. The risk is well worth avoiding scurvy though. There are more car wrecks than violent crimes(unless the FBI crime reports are off by five million) and more deaths from car accidents than murders.

More people are killed with cars than any other instrument in the US.

And that would make wearing a seatbelt even more important, right?

razorburn
December 28, 2006, 07:35 AM
*sigh* Anecdotes, and not perfect examples? Until you walk in their shoes and see what and why they do what they do (for your safety), how can you judge? I can see where it is hypocritical and you prove the point. But first, your not in the hotzones some of these guys are working in, and you probably will never know what it is like to be there-in that metal deathtraps- in those anecdote type situations, will you? Maybe this one should be brought up in the tactics forum under a poll or something to see what some have to say about *possibly* being in that situation even once in a lifetime.

Second, a seatbelt will NOT save you in an "auto involved" death where you are slammed from behind at 70mph while your sitting still on the side of the road writing a ticket. Seatbelt or not, your done. And if the gas tank explodes from the impact, then will that one second of time (unconcious or not) really make a difference? I'd cite those all too frequent FACTUAL INCIDENTS too but they might be billed "anecdotes" again so I won't bother. Now if these double standard cops were dying off duty from violating the law, then it might be another matter (needing more legislation?) <---- sarcasm The last three officers to die from our Sheriff's Department were motorcycle cops hit by non drunk drivers. Where were their seatbelts???

Of course I did use some sarcasm and humor in my previous post. I do understand some reading this stuff will never "like" cops, and some will even cheer when they die (I deals with these types every day). That is fine, as tickets and cops are necessary evils for the public safety and I sleep well every night.

No, you don't understand. By not wearing seatbelts, it's costing more lives. I'n not complaining about the double standard deal where we get ticket for not wearing seatbelts and they don't. I couldn't care less about that. It's not about that. It's that car accidents made worse by not wearing seatbelts kills a lot more cops than ambushes and or whatever tactical scenario where the 1 second disadvantage of wearing a seatbelt does. Do you understand now?

That's also what I meant when I talked about you using those anecdotes. See, those examples are anecdotes. I wasn't saying that you had a bad example. Even though they were that too, because those articles don't say that they survived due to some time advantage attributed to not wearing seatbelts. But even if they were valid examples, I'm saying those examples don't mean anything.

Automotive accidents are a far more prevalent cause of death over the strange and exceptional circumstance of an ambush or some such radical scenario where that the 1 second of response time to push the seat belt button actually matters, wearing seatbelts significantly reduces the odds of a fatality during an accident, so therefore the advantages of wearing seatbelts far would far offset the disadvantages and save many more lives than they cost. And following that, you can see that your argument for not wearing seatbelts to save officer lives, is a very dumb one right? Do you understand now?
It's actually somewhat mind-boggling that you manage to make literally every single point completely wrong or invalid, or not on topic whatsoever. Look at what Fearnaros 2nd quote of your statement. You were arguing against the use of seatbelts on the basis safety. And then you go on to say how vehicular accidents are the leading cause of death. What are you trying to say? Your examples in that first post were invalid because they don't suggest in any way that not wearing a seatbelt helped those officers. And even if those examples were valid, they'd still be wrong and fail to support your argument for not wearing seatbelts because they'd just be very rare scenarios, and wearing seatbelts in the much more common scenario of a vehicular accident, which is the leading cause of death among officers, would save many more lives.

http://www.themonitor.com/PrintIt.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cfm&StoryID=12998&Section=Local

And now you're going on about motorcycle accidents and instant death by high speed rear end collisions and other things which also have nothing to do with your point. Do you think not wearing a seatbelt would help those situations? Wearing one would hurt in those situations? No? Then how does that help with your argument that not wearing a seatbelt is in the interest of officer safety?
Do you need someone to remind you what point you were trying to make? Amazing. :confused:

bogie
December 28, 2006, 12:21 PM
Campers - The problem here is tunnel vision. These guys are SO sure they're gonna get shot at that they're committing a MAJOR safety infraction... One that is likely getting more of them killed vs. the concept of gettin' shot at.

And for the folks who maintain they have a right to drive without a belt - well, I remember when I was young, and hadn't yet been in a bad accident. A belt keeps you from becoming yet another moving thing within the vehicle, and if you're the driver, it keeps you in a position where you can control the vehicle, should that become possible.

Think about what you have unsecured in your vehicle. In the Miami shootout, one of the cops had his duty weapon on the seat next to him, so he could access it rapidly. I do not recall the exact situation, but they either hit something, or slammed on the brakes, and the weapon went flying. Useless weapon. Do you keep your car gun under the front seat? It may end up under the brake pedal, clutch or accelerator.

Question what you "know." Throw out everything you "know," and then start looking at the facts, one at a time. These guys "know" that they are in danger from getting shot. In fact, that's not really much of a danger for them.

berettaman
December 28, 2006, 12:37 PM
Problem Solved.
Just have the automakers make an "ejector seat belt" for cop cars.When the drivers side inside door handle is actuated,POW,the seatbelt is released and jetisoned. :neener:

Shanghai McCoy
December 28, 2006, 12:49 PM
"Click it or Ticket"....:rolleyes:
I shall have to check with the police here as to how the belt latch works with the hip holster on their duty belt.Maybe that is why they don't buckle up.

johnnymenudo
December 28, 2006, 03:19 PM
The last two guys I know that were injured at work were undercover guys driving without seatbelts - the thought being that your typical drug dealer / buyer does not wear a seatbelt, so doing so kind of raises a redflag when you are undercover. The other issue that has come up is using Glocks mexican carry. The department won't approve any other weapons, and the thought among the narcotics guys is that drug dealers do not use nice holsters.

J

RustyShackelford
December 28, 2006, 03:24 PM
Shouldn't this topic be posted at officer.com or lawenforcementjobs.com or fop.org or iacp.org?

I do not know how it relates to firearms/ammo/gunsmiths/etc.

:D

RS

Justin
December 28, 2006, 03:26 PM
Off topic.

If you enjoyed reading about "COPs kills" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!