[The Real Hawkeye]

What should I ask for if I want a replacement barrel? Rifling on original has very rounded lands. Not looking for match grade accuracy, and want to keep original bushing, with no alteration of frame.

Should I spedify a one piece barrel?

Anything else?

Is it necessary to alter the frame in any way in order to fit and install a new barrel?

Thanks.

[Rick O'Shea]

Hawkeye,
From reading your other thread, you're having some well-thought out work done on this pistol by some fine folks.

But why keep the original bushing?

One of the many things that George & Co. excel at is custom-fitted bushings - I know - I have one, and that one item alone has made a huge difference in my gun's accuracy.

I realize you're trying to keep as many original parts on the gun as possible, and I understand and applaud that.
Perhaps you could have them do, as with some of your other parts, an evaluation and replacement as necessary.

To answer your question; I have heard that the integrity of modern two-piece barrels is such that the distinction between the types of barrels is overrated.

For validation of this idea, and regarding the issue of frame alteration, I will step aside for Tuner, Fuff, or others of greater wisdom than I.

[Jim Watson]

I know of nobody making two piece 1911 barrels except Springfield for use in their low end guns. And they are not bad quality. If you could get one takeoff - they do not sell bare barrels any more - it would likely shoot ok for you. All the aftermarket barrels I know of are one piece and the question does not arise. Get a bushing, it will help and not cost much.

The frame should not need to be altered to take a new barrel, nearly any ramp adjustment could be made on the barrel.
Unless whoever Bubba Blued your gun messed with it.

You realize this is getting to be a substantial project in scope and cost.

[The Real Hawkeye]

You realize this is getting to be a substantial project in scope and cost.I hope not. Only spent about $250 on the gun, so I guess another $250 would be ok. Hope it's not much more than that? :uhoh:

[Old Fuff]

Ya, in this day and age you are running into some meaningful money. I'd get a quote before proceeding with the project. Keep in mind that the pistol is now worth far more then $250,00...

Most aftermarket barrels offered today are so-called "match barrels," and are made oversized at certain places so that they can be individually fit to each particular gun. This can substantially increase accuracy, but it comes at the expense (pardon the pun) of putting out some big bucks - both for the barrel, and then the labor for custom fitting. So far as I know all of these barrels are one-piece, either based on forgings or investment castings (no MIM).

You might for grins, see what a current service-grade barrel costs from Colt. I believe that Brownells carries them, as well as a number of the aftermarket match grade kind. You might have to get a matching service barrel bushing to match a Colt barrel, although there is a good chance that the bushing you have would work. Service barrels are supposed to just drop in... Sometimes yes and sometimes no, but fitting should be very minor.

I don't see that you HAVE to change the present barrel, as it seems to be serviceable. On the other hand if you WANT to change it that's another matter. ;)

[Jim Watson]

From your other thread with your letter to EGW and their price list, you have $200+ in parts and labor not including the barrel... or Fed-ups shipping which is a major factor in pistolsmithing costs these days.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Could I specify a service grade barrel, or do I have to buy it and send it to them for fitting? The barrel that's in there has very rounded lands. It's almost like it has no rifling at all.

[Jim Watson]

Ever looked down a glock barrel? Now that is rounded rifling.
How does it shoot?

If you want a new barrel at minimum cost, contact EGW or other good gunsmith and ask about a takeoff barrel. Best to call and talk to a human.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Good idea, I'll do that.

[HSMITH]

The rifling in that old gun started VERY shallow. I would give it a superb cleaning, and shoot it. It will likely shoot pretty darn well. I have shot some with what looks like a twisted piece of rusty pipe for a barrel and they will still shoot inside of 6" at 25 yards. Give it a chance before spending the money on a new barrel.

[The Real Hawkeye]

No, the barrel is perfectly clean. There's just not much rifling there. Sort of a suggestion of the rifling that used to be there, and not much else. The lands are just slightly raised, and rounded. I would be surprised if it was actually imparting much spin on the bullets. Accuracy is acceptable at seven yards, but then a smooth bore would be too. Is it only a concern for the cost that's makes you want to put the breaks on the new barrel, or is there something else? :confused:

[Old Fuff]

One time, as an experiment, the U.S. Air Force Match Training Unit (USAFMTU) armorers took some well shot-out 1911A1 service pistols. and rebuilt them the same way they did target pistols, but using the original parts. While the inside of some of the barrels looked like sewer pipe they would all shoot under 3 inches at 25 yards, and some under 5 inches at 50, this while clamped in a machine rest. Of course with USGI match barrels and similar fitting they would have done better, but what they were trying to prove was that the well worn service guns could still be rebuilt and be used for the intended purpose as a military sidearm.

Anyway, I don't think that anyone is trying to talk you out of a new barrel, but possibly save you some considerable expense if it isn't necessary. As has been pointed out there are different kinds of barrels around, what you need to do is pick out what would be best for the intended purpose, and fit your budget at the same time.

[HSMITH]

I wish I had pictures of some old bores that would illustrate what I am trying to say.

The rifling on those old guns was extremely shallow to begin with, drastically less land height than most other guns. Round edges really don't matter, if the rifling grips the bullet it grips the bullet. Shallow rifling and rounded lands usually make for a pretty fast bore and one that doesn't foul easily if at all.

To find out if it will stabilize the bullets shoot some longer ranges with a couple different kinds of ammunition, 25 yards at a minimum. Pick up some Blazer for this test, the plated bullets used in it are very soft and will challenge the shallow rifling. If the holes are round all is well, if it keyholes replace it.

The cost is certainly one reason I am not encouraging you to replace the barrel, keeping the gun reasonably intact is another. You are looking at a solid $250 to have a good barrel fitted correctly. Those old Colts typically shoot pretty darn good, are dead solid reliable, and represent what the factory 1911 once was and could be. I have shot some GI 1911's that absolutely rattle when shaken that will still shoot into 4" at 25 yards with the tiny sights and me on the handle, that is as good or better than a lot of the current crop of high dollar whiz bang 1911 types on the market today.

I wouldn't change it unless something was verified to be wrong with it, but that is just my opinion.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Ok, you guys make some good arguments. I am going to unpack it, reassemble it and take it to the range to see how it shoots at 20 yards or so. If I don't see any keyholing, I will forget about having the barrel replaced. You've gotten me very curious about this, and it could just save me some big bucks.

[Old Fuff]

Twenty yards may not show you much. Shoot from a rest at 50 yards, and don't worry about the group, just keyholing. Shoot jacketed bullets, not lead or plated.

[RogersPrecision]

A stock Colt barrel should just about 'drop-in'.
Cost would be minimal........about $80.
You could use the new barrel for shooting and retain the original for loving.
:)
If more accuracy is the goal, have a match bushing fitted to the new barrel. The original bushing could be used with the original barrel.
Yup! You can have your cake and eat it too!
:D

[The Real Hawkeye]

Ok, I'll try it at fifty yards. I might have to go over to the rifle range to do that, though. I'll use a BIG target. :uhoh:

[Jim Watson]

I think Chuck's offer of a factory barrel for $80 to be an outstanding deal. If your worn looking barrel does not surprise you, which it may well do.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Ok, just got back from the range, and have some pictures. You will have to tell me if these holes indicate keyholing, but I don't think so, because I fired a .38 at the target afterwards, and the holes looked identical. Besides, when I looked closely at the holes, each one had a perfect little .45 caliber circle in the middle, a mark from the carbon on the bullet face rubbing off on the paper. I think the funny shape of the holes has more to do with the grain of the paper than with the bullets, but I would like to hear some opinions on it.

Well, I had some bad news too. After about three mag fulls, there was an extraction failure, combined with a jam as the next round was fed into the back of the spent case. Looked at the extractor, and the hook had been sheered clean off. Take a look at the picture. So this is something else that needs replacing now. Wonder why that happened. I was using the right kind of mag in it, i.e., the kind Fuff recommends, 7 rounders with the little bump on the follower, from Metalform. Well, I guess it's a good thing I took it to the range. Now I can have them fix this too while it's there.

So, does the barrel need replacing? This group is from a rest at 50 yards. Shot surprisingly high, considering I was holding dead on, but I guess the tiny sights have something to do with it. Well, here are some pictures.

[Old Fuff]

Did you have the target mounted on cardboard, or just the paper in a frame?

[Jim Watson]

The bullet holes look normal for shots through thin paper.

Sorry about the extractor, but EGW makes a good one and if you have them do other work, it will be a simple fix.

[1911Tuner]

Your extractor looks like it's been tweaked, judging by the angles on it that enhance feeding. Try adding a little tension and see if the extraction issue goes away.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Did you have the target mounted on cardboard, or just the paper in a frame?There was cardboard, but it was shredded up pretty good before I put a target over it.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Your extractor looks like it's been tweaked, judging by the angles on it that enhance feeding. Try adding a little tension and see if the extraction issue goes away.Tuner, it might not be clear from the picture, but the extractor hook is sheered off, i.e., there is no longer an extractor hook on that extractor. Hard to get a good shot of something that small, but take my word for it.

[Old Fuff]

I don't think your old barrel is keyholing bullets...:)

But on the other hand I agree with Jim Watson, Chuck Rogers just offered you a flaming deal on a barrel. You could have your cake and eat it too, unless you want to upgrade the pistol to target standards for more then twice the money. :scrutiny:

[The Real Hawkeye]

Fuff, since it appears I don't need a new barrel, I think I'll just forget about fitting a new one.

How do you explain this extractor hook ripping off like that? Rough chamber, maybe? Or maybe the thing was just too old and finally gave way?

[HSMITH]

I wouldn't replace that barrel. It is shooting plenty good considering the sights, distance, trigger pull weight and all of that.

For the extractor, well $%) happens. Better now than later. That is something that WILL happen, not if but when. If you shoot a 1911 pattern pistol much it WILL happen to you sooner or later. I am a BIG fan of the AFTEC extractors. They cost about $70, but I feel they are well worth the money. I would put one in it in a heartbeat, and let extractor worries be a thing of the past. Well, you should put a new set of springs in it every 10K rounds, but other than that it is all gravy from there. Every single 1911 type I need to count on has an Aftec in it now, I am completely sold on them. Far stronger and more durable.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Never heard of the AFTEC. What makes it so good?

[HSMITH]

It isn't bent to achieve tension, it uses two small coil springs to tension it. You can use both springs for full tension, just one spring, one full spring and one spring slightly shorter, whatever you want for tension. The body and hook is a good bit bigger and stronger, because the body doesn't need to be a spring. It won't 'lose' tension suddenly like a normal extractor, the odds of both springs suddenly fatigueing at the same time are extremely low and they will run with just one spring ground down to very low tension quite well in most cases. A normal extractor doesn't lose tension suddenly either, but by the time you figure out it is losing tension it is too late and the gun starts jamming. If you have a couple junk magazines that let the round go ahead of the extractor the beefy hook and coil springs will tolerate snapping over the rim far better than a standard extractor, this is another thing you probably won't notice until it is too late. The way it is designed you have FULL hook contact with the rim, it isn't set up to have the hook nose clearanced from the bottom of the groove. More contact gives you a better chance of pulling that case from the chamber, and the design prevents gouging cases and jams that you would get setting up a normal extractor this way.

I learned about them from hardcore competitive shooters, guys that put tens of thousands of rounds downrange every year and lots of times tens of thousands of rounds downrange for years and years and years. Most of these guys are shooting high pressure 40's and Supers, a MUCH harder job than a 45 with target loads for the extractors. In talking to dozens of competitors and top gunsmiths I haven't been able to find one person that has had an Aftec break on them personally, a few heard about a guy but don't know who for sure or when. If it happens it is REALLY seldom. Most of us that have put any significant amount of ammo downrange with a 1911 pattern pistol have broken a standard extractor. I have lost 5 that I can think of personally.

I really resisted the Aftec when I first heard about it, '4 pieces to replace one just could not be a good idea' was my thinking. Lots of guys are still using that same logic and I can't fault them for it. It wasn't until I really started digging into it that it became apparent that it really is a better way to do it.

[1911Tuner]

Aftec....Ain't that the insurance....No wait! That's AFLAK. The one with the duck. All I could think of was the quackin' sound...

:neener:

[HSMITH]

So how many rounds did the Aftec have on it when it failed or what sort of problems did you have with it Tuner? I am assuming you have used at least one and fully tested them to proclaim 'quacking' status on them.

[1911Tuner]

I mean...Aftec! :D

I've never used one, so I've never had a problem. Two of the range members have had one fail. One on a practice run and one during a match...round count unknown. No breakages, but spring fatigue produced failures to extract/eject. Near as I can remember, Tosco said that his didn't have that many rounds on it...maybe 5 or 6k...(?) It's been a while, so I can't remember perzactly. If I think of it, I'll ask him next time I see him. Anyhoo...I slipped a standard extractor in one of'em, and as far as I know, it's still shuckin'em out'. The other guy packed up and went home...disgusted...and I didn't have one on hand to keep him in the match.

[HSMITH]

I have an extra in 9mm/supercomp that you are welcome to test drive for a while should you have an interest in firsthand experience with them. Could probably scratch up one in 40 too, 45 is hard to do as those live in my 'everyday' guns.....