Expect the Antis to use this news...


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coltrane679
December 27, 2006, 04:31 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Murder-Toll.html

Expect the sunset of the AWB to get the blame:

December 27, 2006
Murders Are Up in New York and Other Cities
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 3:38 p.m. ET

NEW YORK (AP) -- After many years of decline, the number of murders climbed this year in New York and many other major U.S. cities, reaching their highest levels in a decade in some places.

Among the reasons given: gangs, the easy availability of illegal guns, a disturbing tendency among young people to pull guns when they do not get the respect they demand, and, in Houston at least, an influx of Hurricane Katrina evacuees.

In New York, where the city reported 579 homicides through Dec. 24 -- a nearly 10 percent increase from the year before -- the spike is mostly the result of an unusually large number of ''reclassified homicides,'' or those involving victims who were shot or stabbed years ago but did not die until this year. Thirty-five such deaths have been added to this year's toll, compared with an annual average of about a dozen.

At the same time, Police Department spokesman Paul Browne noted that this year's total is only slightly higher than last year's 539 homicides -- the city's lowest death toll in more than 40 years.

Browne blamed the rise in part on the availability of guns, particularly weapons from out of state. The city this year sued dozens of out-of-state gun shops that it says are responsible for many of the illegal weapons on the streets of New York.

In Chicago, homicides through the first 11 months of the year were up 3.3 percent compared with the same period in 2005, reversing a four-year decline. A police spokeswoman said gang violence has been a contributing factor.

In New Haven, Conn., there were 23 homicides as of Tuesday, compared with 15 in 2004 and in 2005. Police Chief Francisco Ortiz said that about half of this year's killings involve young people settling disputes with guns instead of fists.

''They're all struggling with this thing about respect and pride,'' Ortiz said. ''It's about respect. It's about revenge. It's about having a reputation. It's about turf and it's about girls.''

Houston police attribute the 15 percent increase in the homicide count to the influx of Katrina evacuees from the Gulf Coast.

''So we expect that to settle,'' Lt. Murray Smith said. ''We're hoping it will go down.''

New Orleans, with its post-Katrina exodus, is the only major U.S. city that saw a sharp decline in the number of homicides. There were 154 in New Orleans this year as of Monday, said police spokesman Sgt. Jeffrey Johnson, down from 210 in 2005. But the city was largely empty during the fall and winter of 2005-06, and even now has only about half of its pre-Katrina population of 455,000.

Some cities, like Cincinnati -- which has had 83 homicides so far, up from 79 in 2005 -- posted their highest numbers ever. Others saw their highest death tolls in years.

Oakland, Calif., had 148 homicides as of Wednesday, up 57 percent from last year and the highest in more than a decade. Philadelphia's 2006 homicide total was 403 as of Wednesday, the first time the number has topped 400 in nearly a decade. There were 380 killings in all of 2005.

Philadelphia officials have struggled all year to reduce the violence. In July, Mayor John F. Street gave a televised address in which pleaded with young people: ''Lay down your weapons. Do it now. Choose education over violence.''

A few cities reported slight decreases in murders. Los Angeles' total was down about 4 percent to 464 homicides through Dec. 23. San Francisco's fell about 15 percent. San Francisco Police Sgt. Steve Mannina said the drop is partly due to increased patrols in violence-prone areas and more overtime approved by the police chief.

The FBI does not release its national crime statistics until several months after the end of the year. The bureau's statistics for the first six months of 2006 showed an increase of 1.4 percent in the number of murders in the first half of 2006 compared with the first six months of 2005.

Andrew Karmen, a criminologist at John Jay College in New York, said that while there are various theories for the drop in murders in New York and other cities in the 1990s, no one knows for sure why it happened. And if they are going up again, no one knows the reason for that, either, he said.

He noted that police departments tend to take credit when the murder rate goes down. ''When crime goes up it will be interesting to see whether they will accept responsibility,'' Karmen said.

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El Tejon
December 27, 2006, 05:03 PM
How do you figure?:confused:

The cities mentioned in the article, New Haven, NYC, Chicago, Cincy, all banned "assault weapons".

doubleg
December 27, 2006, 05:08 PM
so there was a murder for every 17,271 people living in the city? thats pretty reasonable IMO.

Henry Bowman
December 27, 2006, 05:11 PM
Some cities, like Cincinnati -- which has had 83 homicides so far, up from 79 in 2005 -- posted their highest numbers ever.Almost all of our record number of murders (and non-fatal shootings) are criminal on criminal, usually drug related. Very little community support and great reluctance to ID the shooters. Hands of police have been tied. Sad.

Kentak
December 27, 2006, 05:16 PM
Only if you allow the premise that there is an increase in "illegal guns" as a principle cause.

I thought the article actually placed emphasis on the cultural aspects and the readiness of some to resort to gun violence to prove manhood, defend honor, or get revenge.

We need to keep the focus on the millions of responsible gun-owners who don't give in to that nonsense.

K

peashooter
December 27, 2006, 05:30 PM
I would also add that, I do not know a single responsible gun owner that would want or allow a known criminal to posess a firearm.
Where I work we are not supposed to be CCW, but as I and my co-workers are often in very bad parts of town, I do anyway. None of my partners have ever said anything other than being thankful that I do.

skidooman
December 27, 2006, 05:32 PM
exactly. of course they didnt mention anything about the statistics in a shall issue state.

tellner
December 27, 2006, 05:33 PM
If crime goes up the antis will say "It's because there are too many guns." The gun lovers will say "Gun control isn't working."

If crime goes down the antis will say "Gun control is working." Gun lovers will say "It's because there are more people carrying guns."

Chipperman
December 27, 2006, 05:59 PM
the spike is mostly the result of an unusually large number of ''reclassified homicides,'' or those involving victims who were shot or stabbed years ago but did not die until this year.

***?

So Gerald Ford's death the other day was actually caused by that assassination attempt back in 1975. Makes sense. :scrutiny:

Geronimo45
December 27, 2006, 06:08 PM
"it's about girls" - we need an AWB - Assault-Women Ban. We need to get these dangerous females off the streets!

El Tejon
December 27, 2006, 06:14 PM
Chipperman, year and a day rule for illegal homicides.

Modern medicine is keeping a lot of people alive that would not be say in the '80s. Guys hang on that should have been dead right there that to advances in emergency trauma.

I call it the "Walmart Scooter Effect". When you go out in public you see people who are very lucky to be alive in Walmart or whenever. Modern medicine is keeping them up and running long past Nature's design limitations and the abuse they have done their bodies via their mouths.

AF_INT1N0
December 27, 2006, 06:19 PM
I expect the pro gunners to use this news....

Most of the Cities Mentioned are either Anti Gun Corrupt Cesspools, usually run by liberals or (in the case of Houston) are the result of imported Sh**bags from the aforementioned liberal run Anti-gun Cesspools.
The improvement they mentioned (L.A. was a decrease of 4% to 464, was still ridiculously high and as a wise man said on another forum doesn't matter to the 460 some odd victims that never had the chance to defend themselves.

The other improvement was New Orleans, and they have recently exported most of their undesirables to other States. They still are missing 1/2 of their city.

gc70
December 27, 2006, 07:44 PM
the spike is mostly the result of an unusually large number of ''reclassified homicides,'' or those involving victims who were shot or stabbed years ago but did not die until this year.Someone please tell me this is a sick joke.

thorn726
December 27, 2006, 07:59 PM
there's a lot that can happen later on that could cause death.

stuck bullets that move, weakened arteries, comas/ i cant believe you guys cant figure out how that works.


anyway, crazy. we've had the avg 3 pr 4 murders here,(oakland is next town) but Oakland is going nuts. they have avg'd 100-110 murders give or take he last several years.
this is WAY up.

poor instruction on the severity of the use of guns is part of it.
these idiot kids think you can pull and shoot over anything. at least one of our murders was accidental. DOH. yes, if you shoot it, it can kill someone.

really frustrating how senseless it is here. most killings here arent robberies but turf wars and the like.
there's no answer, but i know taking away good people's guns isnt going to help anyone

Standing Wolf
December 27, 2006, 09:39 PM
Browne blamed the rise in part on the availability of guns, particularly weapons from out of state.

Couldn't have anything to do with criminals, of course.

sm
December 27, 2006, 09:50 PM
Anti's need criminals and criminals need Anti's.
Works out pretty good if you think about it.

My theory is to level the playing field and Everyone is Carrying and Everyone armed.

Now , get a big spot of land, all the criminals are allowed on this land, and give them guns and ammo. They have to exist on this land, leave boundaries and fair game to law abiding.

Criminals will either kill each other off, or some will became law abiding.

Anti's , or criminals need to be removed from the Perpetuation of Tyranny that exist in the Anti::Criminal set up.

Yeah I know, truth hurts and reality is a female dog.

Socrates
December 27, 2006, 10:12 PM
In New York, where the city reported 579 homicides through Dec. 24 -- a nearly 10 percent increase from the year before -- the spike is mostly the result of an unusually large number of ''reclassified homicides,'' or those involving victims who were shot or stabbed years ago but did not die until this year. Thirty-five such deaths have been added to this year's toll, compared with an annual average of about a dozen.

At the same time, Police Department spokesman Paul Browne noted that this year's total is only slightly higher than last year's 539 homicides -- the city's lowest death toll in more than 40 years.

Browne blamed the rise in part on the availability of guns, particularly weapons from out of state. The city this year sued dozens of out-of-state gun shops that it says are responsible for many of the illegal weapons on the streets of New York.

Ahh, loving family, politics and statistics to prove your politics. 35 deaths have been added, caused by prior shootings, spread over years. So, STATISTICALLY, THE RATE IS UP, in reality, the 35 deaths should be attributed to the years the actual stabbings, or shootings occured in. This would raise the prior baseline, for prior years averaged, and reduce the alleged increase in homicides. 579-35=544 is the actual figure, only 5 up from
last years 539, the lowest in 40 years. But, if 6 of those deaths added in from prior years, where based last year, in fact, this is also the best total in the last 40 years.

Browne's illogic is truly incredible. He admits the reclassification of homicides are the real reason for the increase, but, kisses his majors' a... by saying it's due to the political football that the major has been using to get liberals on board, out of city guns.

WHAT REALLY AMAZES ME IS AP, IN A NEW YORK TIMES ARTICLE, ACTUALLY POSTING THE FACTS THAT ALLOW LOGICAL READERS TO SEE THE ILLOGIC OF THE POLITICALLY BASED BIAS OF THE MAYORS FLUNKYS. FAIR JOB OF REPORTING, BETTER THEN MOST IN THAT PAPER.
I REALLY LIKE THEIR FINAL CONCLUSIONS:

Andrew Karmen, a criminologist at John Jay College in New York, said that while there are various theories for the drop in murders in New York and other cities in the 1990s, no one knows for sure why it happened. And if they are going up again, no one knows the reason for that, either, he said.

He noted that police departments tend to take credit when the murder rate goes down. ''When crime goes up it will be interesting to see whether they will accept responsibility,'' Karmen said.

S

benEzra
December 28, 2006, 12:28 PM
That's easy enough to refute...

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html

FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2005, Table 20, Murder, by State and Type of Weapon.

All rifles COMBINED account for less than 3% of homicides, and that percentage has been the same for a decade or two. Rifles just aren't a crime problem and never have been.

ServiceSoon
December 28, 2006, 12:53 PM
benEzra: That is a good point, but be careful about where that argument could lead. They could rationalize that handguns are the problem and suggest that we need more regulation.

Me thinkgs rifles arn't a major problem because they are too large to carry around and short barreled rifles are NFA weapons, so that prevents criminals for carrying them. :rolleyes:

romma
December 28, 2006, 01:00 PM
there's a lot that can happen later on that could cause death.
I was shot in my neck as a teenager. The bullet hit my Carotid Artery. My Doctor last year suggested scanning it because plaque can build up on damaged veins and arteries and cause strokes or clots...

Don't Tread On Me
December 28, 2006, 11:42 PM
I agree with the other poster;

NY, Chicago and other such cities have almost complete bans on all firearms, not just "assault weapons"...

According to the gun-grabbing scum, these places should be crime-free utopias. Of course, they blame Virginia and neighboring states that sell guns for creating access for trafficking. That is their rational for wanting to ban guns nationally.

However, that doesn't explain then how we'll be able to keep guns from being smuggled into the United States.

As far as I know, we can't keep 2 million illegal alien human beings from entering, we cannot keep millions of TONS of marijuana, cocaine and other drugs from not entering. Smuggling guns in should be a total piece of cake.

That's where their rational for the UN disarmament comes in. They want to ban arms manufacture globally. Well, that's fairly absurd, since firearms, like the crossbow or any other feared weapon is like the CAT out of the BAG. Can't get it back in. Same thing with nuclear weapons.

That ignores the fact that human nature cannot be controlled by unjust laws. We've already seen countless instances of people, here in America and in foreign countries, use crude methods to construct firearms. That's without quality machineshops...

Fact is, gun-grabbers are ignorant. If not, they're completely rational and intelligent, at which point - they're evil. That's the only summary of them. There are two kinds of anti-gun people, those who don't know the facts or are ignorant or not bright enough to understand, then there are those that completely understand, but just want to disarm you - and they are evil since they know what they're doing and why.


The only ones we can help are the ones who don't know the facts. The hopelessly stupid and the downright evil are not worth the time.

cuchulainn
December 29, 2006, 05:35 AM
They'll spin any news.

Murder up on New York -- "if only we had more gun control."
Murder down on New York -- "see, gun control works, we need more."

vito
December 29, 2006, 08:55 AM
Why would anyone be surprised that this news will be used to call for more gun control? Those who want to further limit or ban guns are doing so for emotional reasons, and not as a result of any fact based analysis. As others have stated, they will use any news to call for more gun limitations, or to claim the success of current gun laws. I grew up in NYC, but left decades ago. I can't tell you how many of my relatives have an unbelievable fear and hatred of guns. They have never touched, let alone fired a weapon; they have never served in the military (as I did for 24 years); and they have never hunted (but are more than willing to eat food that was killed by others). They all seem to have an irrational faith in the government to protect them, and of course they are ALL staunch supporters of the Democrat party.

GEM
December 29, 2006, 01:17 PM
I don't get the AWB connection - you would have to show that the murders are committed with the weapons described in the AWB or that somehow the sunset was causal in increasing the supply of other weapons.

Research a couple of years ago, sponsored by the DOJ, indicated no effect on any crime index of the AWB.

The general increase in murders might be used by antis but I disagree with the AWB argument as it could be easily knocked down.

The generality availiability of handguns through straw man sales in other states is probably more likely to be used. That's the engine behind the NYC lawsuits on out of state gun dealers.

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