[Low-Sci]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately. It hurt, but its made me a better person.

I've understood for a while that since I can't carry a gun legally, that leaves me with a knife and my body for weapons. While I know that, I' just on the edge of really understanding it.

A friend of mine was mugged a short while ago. He was with three other guys when it happened. This friend is a hockey player and doesn't go down easy, but as could be expected in downtown Madison, he was very drunk (something I very rarely do). A group of four guys jumped his group and robbed them. My friend ended up with a pile of stitches, a concussion, and a night in the hospital.

This made me see how drastically unprepared I am for what could happen, even if I am slightly prepared merely by being armed and aware. That's not enough.

So I'm picking up martial arts. I can't afford regular lessons at a dojo yet and honestly I can't be bothered with forms or katas or whatever each discipline calls them. The first step as I see it is to improve my physical shape, which I can do on my own. When I have some money saved up, I'll enroll in a school whose philosophy and practices I have researched and agree with.

The program starts now. The mission statement is to get myself into good physical shape and learn a martial art whereby I can expect to be able to defend myself effectively and forcefully. I'm doing this because I understand now, on a personal level, that just being fit won't get me through a fight, and living in a state that restricts my rights as it does, I'm left with no alternative.

I have to have be capable of defending myself and the people with me. I can't do this right now. I have to be physically fit enough to weather through and win a fight. I also can't do this right now. I have to know how to prosecute the fight in order to win. I don't right now.

I need to learn these three things. There are more, but we'll start broad and simple. So if you happen to run into me elsewhere in the future, remind me of this.

Thoughts?

[Devonai]

Reputable martial arts schools teach kata for a reason. They focus the mind and train the body.

Muscle memory is extremely important in martial arts. You can be taught a technique, understand the technique, and do the technique in slow-motion in five minutes. Until you've done it hundreds of times, however, you cannot and will not do the technique properly at full speed, and certainly not if your life is at stake.

Kata seem stupid at first. I hated them. Now I understand their place.

Whatever style you choose and whatever the philosophy of the dojo, the important thing is to practice until your arms fall off and your legs collapse out from under you.

[loumarch]

Look into Krav-Maga. It's a very simple self-defense method that was developed with ordinary people in mind.

Two of my sons took it for a year and they learned a ton of very useful self-defense tools. The only prop you need is a pair of handwraps.

[CountGlockula]

Good luck. Maybe another alternative... boxing? Just my thoughts.

[NailGun]

Low-Sci, Sorry to hear about your buddy.
Sounds to me like a better "new year's" resolution would be: Move to South Dakota, buy a handgun for self defense, get training, and carry it. Life IS better here! :D

While the thought of using martial arts in self defense is romantic (having imaginative or emotional appeal), I doubt that most individuals would fare well when confronted with an armed bad guy, even with training. My guess is that most persons with a CCW may not fare well either, without good training.

A buddy of mine, former resident of Milwaukee, always carried a framing hammer in a hammer holster on his belt. It was kind of an "open carry carpenters weapon". He said no one ever picked on him.

Best of luck with your training. NailGun.

[Thefabulousfink]

I have run into quite a few people who think that because they have gone to a class twice a week, for a year, they are now some bada$$. Fighting is fighting, and the only way to get better at is is to have experience. Many martial arts start teaching kata, this enforces discipline and muscle memory. However, kata is not intended to train you to walk into street brawls. The traditional meathod of martial arts instruction is to spend years enfocing discipline and repetition until the forms have become second nature and can call upon them by instinct. This work well if you are willing to devote years of dedicated study, but it is not the way to be able to fight off muggers in 6 month.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a lot of value in the traditional martial arts but they are not a quick road. I have seen many people, boosted by false confidence, learn that they are not nearly as good as they thought. Luckily these lessons have come on the sparring mat and not in the street.

If you do not have the time or desire to devote a large protion of your life to a martial art (3 days a week plus practice on your own time will get you good in 2-3 years). Look for a class where the instuctor teaches combined styles and incorporates lots of live sparring. This is probably the fastest way to become a proficient fighter.

Now that I have said all that......
In the real world, it is nice to know how to fight your way out of a situation, but it is never a good idea. Like shooting, fighting should be a last resort. 30 or 40 years ago a fist fight might have gotten you a night in jail and a talking to by a judge or sherrif. These days, however, you can be brought up on felony charges and (in some states) if it comes out that you have had training it becomes "Assault with a deadly weapon". It is simply not worth losing your freedom over your pride, the money in your wallet, or even a few lumps.

The rule these days is: Walk away; if you can't walk, run; if you can't run, only then do you fight.

...and Finally. Being a fighter is a lot like the gunfighters of the old west. You may be the fastest draw on your street but there is allways somebody faster and you can never tell who it is until they've shot. I have seen too many kids with a little training and something to prove.:uhoh:

[Low-Sci]

"The rule these days is: Walk away; if you can't walk, run; if you can't run, only then do you fight."

Since we're on The High Road, I figured that went without saying.

"I have seen too many kids with a little training and something to prove."

I'm sure lots of people are like this, but I'm not out to prove anything.

I know that there's no magic bullets. There wouldn't be even if I were carrying a gun, where the above two quoted statements would of course still apply.

I understand that the romanticized idea of using martial arts in a real fight is dangerous and stupid. But consider the alternative: employing uncoordinated flailing arms in a real fight. That's much more stupid, several times more dangerous, and an option I don't have to accept.

[JShirley]

In the real world, it is nice to know how to fight your way out of a situation, but it is never a good idea

I agree with much of what you have said, but this particular statement is fallacious.

J

[Don Gwinn]

On martial arts:

It's really pretty simple. The philosophy, the techniques, etc. are less important than one overriding factor--the training method.

If you want to learn to fight, you need to choose an art that trains "Alive." This means that early and often during your education you are expected to work against a fully-resisting opponent at full speed with no pre-determined "winner" or "loser." This is not the same thing as drills, kata, or "one-steps." An alive art may do those things too, though most don't, but it always includes the training method of sparring or rolling with as few rules as possible--ideally, only what is required for safety.

Arts that USUALLY train this way include, but are not limited to:
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu/Luta Livre
Wrestling (high school, collegiate, Olympic, Greco Roman, Catch, Puroresu)
Boxing
Muay Thai
Judo
Sambo/Cambo
Kyokushin Karate
Sometimes Jeet Kune Do--see Straight Blast Gym
Sometimes Krav Maga--see below.

Arts that USUALLY do not train this way include, but are not limited to:
Tae Kwon Do (both *** and ITF)
Hapkido
Most Karate (Kenpo, "American Karate," Shorin Ryu, etc.)
Aikido/Aikijutsu
Ninpo/Ninjutsu
Anything called Kung Fu or Wushu
Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsung/Ving Chun/__ing __ung

You can't base your decision on the name of an art. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu used to be known for the purity of its rankings--you had to beat blue belts to become a blue belt, then beat purples to be a purple, and so on. Now frauds are popping up here and there. Krav Maga was mentioned earlier. Real Krav Maga seems to do some good things, and people say they have "fight nights" where they spar with intent and pressure-test their stuff. That's good.
Unfortunately, it seems that Krav Maga World Wide has made the decision to grow at any cost, so now they're certifying people to teach KM after a week of intensive classes. Therefore we're seeing a lot of TKD teachers who feel the need to look like they're teaching "the real stuff" doing that one week and then claiming to teach Krav Maga. In reality they teach TKD with a few dirty tricks from KM.

Beware of the following:
1. Long contracts. If you can't pay month to month, there's a reason why they want you locked in. It's probably not good.
2. Sparring. If you don't see sparring during your free class, ask when they do it. If they don't spar full contact at least once per week, leave. Grappling arts should be "rolling" just about every class.
3. If they've got black belts on kids, something is wrong. A kid actually whipped out his trading card the other day in class. No kidding, he had a "Karate Card" with him posing in front of flames in his black belt. He's 11 years old. :scrutiny: Perhaps not coincidentally, he attends a school that has gone from "Progressive Kenpo" to "Progressive Kenpo-Jitsu" to "Progressive Kenpo-Jitsu and Krav Maga" in the last two years. I can't really say for certain, but any guesses as to whether they're teaching serious Krav Maga classes there?
Not to fluff BJJ all the time, but my teacher is the only BJJ black belt between Chicago and St. Louis. Not in our system, Gracie Barra, but all of BJJ. There's a reason there aren't more like him--there just aren't that many black belts running around in this art.

I would recommend Judo if you want the cheapest, simplest way to become very dangerous in a wide variety of situations. Judo is often free or close to it, especially in college towns. Judo is a great stand-up art, the throws work on just about anyone, and you'll get enough ground fighting not to panic if you find yourself on the ground.
Judo is unfortunately not available here, so I chose BJJ. This means I get a lot of work on the ground, but I have to study a different art to get really good striking and takedowns on the feet.

A good boxing gym would be great. People will tell you that boxers have limited technique, and they do, but the techniques they have they can throw with absolute confidence because they train to use them against fully resisting opponents at full speed while getting hit in the face. A boxer who also wrestles or does Judo can be a legitimately bad man.

[El Tejon]

I'll second Don's post. For maximum efficiency, it's really hard to beat Western boxing. Sounds like it is what you are looking for.

The only thing I would add to Don's post is the importance of physical fitness. I know it seems incredible but I have heard it stated from some MA teachers that conditioning is "not important" as our d34dly art:rolleyes: will ensure the fight is over in seconds.:rolleyes: As if anyone knows what it will take to win a fight.:rolleyes:

What Don says about BJJ is dead on. Their di tang qin na shr (Chinese [hey, I'm CMA so sue me:D] ground fighting seize and control system) is great. The standards are high and they stress repitition, physical fitness, comraderie and excellence. BJJ clubs are usually known for training hard (the Marchados and Gracies routinely trained for 12 hours a day at Judge Marchado's home in the mountains in Brazil) something that I would love to see in more MA clubs.

I'm a long time CMAer. Forms to me are like water to a fish.:D Form for this, for that, for that weapon, und so weiter. Don't mind them but I don't get wrapped around the axle about them. See them for what they are--a way to transmit knowledge in an illiterate society and a way to grind in the repititions necessary to do something without thinking.

Sounds like you want a boxing gym. Good luck and have fun.:cool:

[hso]

Don't get drunk in public. Don't become prey.

Don't go with people who get drunk in public. This is a herd of prey.

Don't go to places where people get drunk in public. This is the watering hole where predators look for prey.

Avoidance is key. Awareness is essential. If you can't see it coming you can't avoid it.

Katas/forms are to build muscle memory. 1,000 repetitions are needed just to get any competency and 10,000 repetitions are needed to get a "handle" on a technique. That means practice, dedication and time. You'll do versions of forms in western boxing, FMA, CMA, et al just to teach your body how to carry out your mind's will without thinking about it.

I'll add my voice to the concept that if people aren't in full contact during the training then they aren't training to fight. Find a school that bleeds a little.

Good luck.

[JShirley]

Don,

You've got a lot of good points, but I don't necessarily agree about training full speed early in training. The way I was trained, was that "free sparring" full speed left you too worried about winning to learn much...and my experience tends to back that up. I've seen a lot of variance in the Ninpo arena- from the absolutely helpless (and SLOPPY- didn't master the basics)- to artists I would pit against absolutely anyone, from any art. Yeah.

Like training with firearms or any other serious training, you should start slowly, with good form. You can always get faster, but if you don't get the basics down, you'll just be doing the wrong thing fast. That's no good.

j

[Don Gwinn]

Striking requires more drilling time, maybe, but grappling should be experienced at full speed at least a little bit early on. The thing most "martial artists" are missing is any idea what it takes to apply their techniques against someone who genuinely doesn't want to accommodate them.

Even in striking arts I'm convinced that arts where serious sparring is done early on produce better fighters more consistently.

I expected you to give me a little poke for what I said about Ninjas, actually. :)

Maybe full speed was the wrong way to put it, but definitely working against someone who is free to avoid or resist your technique any way they want is key. Obviously you have to start out near slow motion with anything new and work your way up to full speed, but the problem with going slow and staying slow (for instance, Tae Kwon Do one-step self defense exercises) is that many techniques which work that way can't be made to work when the opponent is moving at full speed. If you want to make the stuff work on a full-speed opponent, you have to work against a full-speed partner.

This doesn't mean that strikers have to be trying to knock each other out every time, but they should be trying to connect. And at some point, they've got to go at it or they're kidding themselves. I did not learn this lesson second hand. If you go over to TFL and search, you can find a long conversation I had with Skorzeny years ago in which he tried to explain to me the difference between Muay Thai and Tae Kwon Do in America. I didn't want to hear it. I had every excuse. I had a master plan. Now I don't do TKD anymore. Why is that?
I finally just couldn't take the idea that here I was studying a martial art, and I had never been punched in the nose. And most of my instructors had never been punched in the face, either, nor did they have any idea what to do in a clinch or on the ground. I wasn't learning to fight.
It was a great school for people who wanted to compete in Olympic TKD--still is. But I finally admitted that it wasn't right for me.

I'd like to save this guy the trouble.

[Devonai]

Arts that USUALLY do not train this way include, but are not limited to:
...Shorin Ryu...

Fortunately for my roommate and I, his Shorin Ryu dojo has always trained at full speed, with full contact (head/foot/arm pads, and cup) sparring. All like-aged students face all others regardless of rank. When I have visited for sparring I have gone up against white belts and black belts in the same session.

[SniperStraz]

...Any MA that requires that you learn katas are the kind of MA that takes years of daily practice and are not for the average person. Your sensei will tell you that a "cat stance" is very important and that with it you will be able to defend your life and other BS like that. In reality he keeps cashing your checks and you're both happy until the day you get your a$$ kicked. In a situation such as you're describing I would advise that you learn forms that center around ground work. I've taken all kinds of MA and I've seen all kinds of fights. Unless both you and your attacker are very well trained, the chances of you both staying on your feet is very slim. He'll pop out of an ally, hit you in the face, hug your middle, and both of you will go down.

As mention earlier Krav Maga is a wonderful form however true Krav Maga is not meant for the lay-person. It was designed as a form (not an art) for the Israeli Special Forces and is still taught today as a way to disarm and incapacitate or otherwise kill one's enemy.

All that being said, chances are that as a civilian you will never have the opportunity to learn true Krav Maga and should therefore learn a form that is available to you. To my knowledge, the best defensive form is a combination of Brazilain Jujitsu and Muay Thai. It is the perfect mix of brutal on-your-feet offense and controlled ground fighting with an endless supply of submissions. STAY AWAY from Taekwondo and Aikido!

My inexpert 0.02

[3fgburner]

I would suggest a book by a guy named Marc "Animal" MacYoung: Pool Cues, Beer Bottles, and Baseball Bats (http://www.amazon.com/Pool-Cues-Beer-Bottles-Baseball/dp/0873645456/sr=8-1/qid=1167604015/ref=sr_1_1/103-2669403-5066244?ie=UTF8&s=books). It isn't just about weapons, it also iincludes tactics, situational awareness, and suchlike. MacYoung also has some hints on where to go for training, on the things he discusses. One of his suggestions is the Society for Creative Anachronism (http://www.sca.org), people who get into armor and beat the crap out of each other with sticks. They're also into the whole medieval-recreation thing. If you're interested, you live in the Barony of Jararvellir (http://www.jararvellir.org/). Looking at their website, they have fighting practice at the UW Ag school's stock pavilion on Wednesday evenings and Sunday afternoons.

If I can't carry a gun, I do carry a walking stick. After 30 years of messing around with wooden swords, I can hit pretty hard. And I'm not even in shape, at the moment...

[Don Gwinn]

BJJ/Muay Thai is a very good combination. I don't know if it's the best, but it's up there. It has been very popular in MMA, which has helped drive more people to study such a combination. Now that Judo/Sambo is exploding in MMA, we'll see whether they blow up in similar fashion.

I'm glad there are Shorin-Ryu schools that spar hard. One of my best friends in high school and college was a black belt in Shorin-Ryu, and she was fond of telling me that her school taught "street-style" SR as opposed to the lesser "sport" version. This was indicated by the fact that they kicked with their toes, not the balls of their feet; this meant they were training to kick with shoes on.
She reached that level without ever being hit. I'm not kidding--they did point-sparring, but they were taught that using "control" by pulling kicks and punches made them better fighters.

You can't learn to fight if you can't fight when you're off balance, when you've just missed, when someone has just smacked you a good one, or when some guy is mounted on your chest raining shots on your face.

[Devonai]

His school also works hard on practical self-defense techniques such as how to defend against choking, grabs, knives, firearms (at contact distance), and many different take-downs and locks.

My roommate just added that in his opinion, Shorin Ryu is one of the hardest styles out there, given a good dojo. All I can say is that I train with him constantly and I am inclined to agree.

STAY AWAY from Taekwondo and Aikido!

All I can say is that after five years of TKD, it is not wise to over-generalize.

[JShirley]

Don,

The schools I trained in always TRIED to hit their opponent, even when just training. If we don't give a real, committed attack, how is our training partner to learn? We just didn't start out at full speed initially (but DID work up to it). The idea was, one person is learning how to attack, while the other is learning how to defend (which includes attacking, of course). It's the receiving student's responsibility to stop that very real incoming punch that will blow through their head [for safety, with lower-level students, a punch to the chest might be substituted, if punching at full speed].

Typically, there would be a progression, as the student advanced in skill: block a series of punches, block a series of punches and use omote gyuaku (or other specific technique) as a takedown, block a series of punches and kicks, then use any take down, then outright randori. (This is dramatically simplified, but the point being, even if not FIGHTING, per se, we were practicing very soon to block full speed, real punches. In the more serious schools I trained in, I went home with bruises every week from the backfist uke uch blocking strikes I received to my arms.)

John